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Speed Tiers List (courtesy of Mekkah's magic numbers)
- Thread starter TheMaster42
- Start date
=D Thanks, I'm honored!
Base 120s aren't exactly a common switch-in threat for Gyarados and other Dragon Dancers likely to aim for that speed. I don't see many common DDers deciding to aim for 248 base.
224 isn't listed because 223 is there already, so people need to come up with their own value of 224 to aim for, based on the fact that 223 is common. Otherwise it would just start a chain reaction... shouldn't I add 225 as a mark to beat 224s, also, then?
I'd like to request for you to put the following stats on the Speed Tiers list. I'm aware that although it doesn't actually give the speed for those Pokemon on the messages, it's an important thing to note.
Relaxed Steelix w/Gyro Ball is an extremely viable option. It can switch into DD Outrages to take very little damage and be able to hit back for STAB + 150 Base = 225 Base, 25 Base short of the power of an Explosion.
341 - -nature/0IV Steelix (30) (Maxes Gyro Ball power at 150 Base + STAB against opponents with 341 Speed or higher.)
370 - -nature/0IV Bronzong (33) (Maxes Gyro Ball power at 150 Base + STAB against opponents with 370 Speed or higher.)
447 - -nature/0IV Forretress (40) (Maxes Gyro Ball power at 150 Base + STAB against opponents with 447 Speed or higher.)
Relaxed Steelix w/Gyro Ball is an extremely viable option. It can switch into DD Outrages to take very little damage and be able to hit back for STAB + 150 Base = 225 Base, 25 Base short of the power of an Explosion.
341 - -nature/0IV Steelix (30) (Maxes Gyro Ball power at 150 Base + STAB against opponents with 341 Speed or higher.)
370 - -nature/0IV Bronzong (33) (Maxes Gyro Ball power at 150 Base + STAB against opponents with 370 Speed or higher.)
447 - -nature/0IV Forretress (40) (Maxes Gyro Ball power at 150 Base + STAB against opponents with 447 Speed or higher.)
Dusknoir comes to mind very quickly. I've even seen Uxie used in it.
In terms of hitters, Camerupt and Crawdraunts are quite sexy in Trick Room in UU. In OU, Snorlax (Duh.), Marowak, Rhyperior and Tyranitar.
And I am building a Trick Room/Curse Team for my friend, basically, anything in Tier 4 you have right now is capable of 0 IV/-Nature.
Great Thread!
Nice list! This will be really handy to give speed EV's to pokemon. Maybe you can add machamp?
I've added a "colorless" duplicate of the list at the bottom, though I think it's the "wall of text" that makes it hard to read, not the colors. (If I could add columns, that would be neat-o.) I think the colorless version is harder to read, but it was easy to do, so I added it.
That is quite potent, although Explosion (after you do all the funky halving attack and quartering defense) deals an attack more like 500 BP than 250. Unfortunately, Steelix is definitely not Overused at the moment, so it and its considerations won't make the list. =(
Hmm! This is highly tempting to add. Although, after thinking about it a while, I realized people would be highly unlikely to reduce the speed on their pokes to take a little less damage from these pokes in certain situations. It's much more important to outspeed other pokes, and get a complete extra attack in, than to try and have one move from one poke deal 25 or 50 BP less.
I'll add Dusknoir, he seems to be relatively common.
Once the OU tier is nailed down, this list will become specifically OU pokes.
Machamp is definitely not OU, and having 55 speed it can use the same numbers as Blissey, if people are worried about it.
Well, I didn't suggest it so other people would consider about lowering their speed, I suggested it so that people can scroll up from that point and see how many Pokemon it can hit for 225 Base damage with Gyro Ball.
It's mainly there for the people considering about where Gyro Ball maxes its power out.
[ I myself thought Gyro Ball would only see the light of maximum base against Ninjasks who Baton Passed Agility and Speed Boosts ]
I was surprised to see how many it can hit and at maximum power base when Steelix used the -nature/0IV set.
Though, It's not really important that you add it in, because at least for me, I liked the speed list so much I saved it to my desktop and added the Gyro Ball bases of 150, 125, and 100 in the list to see where a Steelix could hit.
I know it's BL (or at least was in the last gen), but a CS Arcanine with a Jolly nature and 252 speed EVs gets 475.5 speed, it's pretty high up there and I believe that it should be considered.
Actually, the logarithmic scale uses base 10, an arbitrary human base. If Salamence were the most OU Pokemon, then the main Speed breakpoints would be beating 299 and 328, regardless of where they fall in the powers of 1.1. With Defense, the difference between 299 Defense and 300 Defense will generally be a single HP difference of damage, but the difference between 299 Speed and 300 Speed is often the difference between killing and being killed. The hard number is far more important.
Exactly. Furthermore, the HP * Defense lists (which later turned into Defense tiers) covers significantly more ground than this list. There were 6 digit numbers that simply made no sense to people. An arbitrary 3 digit number (tier 116 for example) is significantly easier to understand than an arbitrary 6 digit number.
I see the advantage of a logarithmic list. However, as stated by Obi, precision is significantly more important here than in attack/defense calculations.
Well... there is one error. My logrithmic list is arbitrarily chosen at base 1.1. Not at base 10 obviously. I first did it at base 1.5, which would have made the base "step" a choice band/specs... aka, the Choice Band/Specs would allow you to KO exactly one more tier, but then ~80% of the pokemon fell in the same tier... and there were only 6 of them. You can see that even with such a small base (base 1.1) many pokemon still fall in the same tier. It was essentially: Blissey, Legendaries, Milotic, everyone else, NU pokemon, under-evolved pokemon. Now, I think there is a balance between the number of tiers and the number of Pokemon in tiers.
Now the base tier is 1.1, making the pokemon's nature determine what you can OHKO... and really two-hit KO and all that stuff. +nature allows you to OHKO, Two-Hit KO, etc. etc. exactly one more tier under the current list...
Erm... damn, I went on a tangent...
Hippowdon with no speed EV's can be added. I think hippowdon is OU, since it is such a good physical tank. Anyway, it's speed is 130 without speed EV's.
Is going over the magic number by 4 EVs as far as DDers/Agility users go effective? Maybe give your Stone Edge Gyarados 4 extra EVs of where it needs to be so you can take down someone else's Gyarados at the magic number?
You can take down someone else's gyarados by using stone edge while the other gyarados doesn't had it =p. On the other hand, it can work, but not with all of them. Gyarados vs. gyarados and both without stone edge means you have to use your skill to attack with either taunt, DD or an attack move.
458 - Quick Feet +nature/252 Ursaring (55)
Are you including CS into this calculation, because if not this is wrong. I believe quick feet is the same as guts in that it gives a 1.5 boost, the guides on here confirm that.
Therefore this would be 343-344
Are you including CS into this calculation, because if not this is wrong. I believe quick feet is the same as guts in that it gives a 1.5 boost, the guides on here confirm that.
Therefore this would be 343-344
pokemon i would think needs adding
max speed +nature abomnasnow
choice scarf max speed +nature abomnasnow
batton pass (and subseed) celebi 176 evs + nature
cleric (or calm mind+leach seed) celebi 32 evs
non-salac charizard (specs, CB, sunny day) + nature 252
deoxys-s i would say add it, just so people can compare it to other pokemon during the test period. +nature 252 evs, + nature however many evs it needs for 500 speed to outspeed jolly scarfchomp, +nature however many evs it needs for 546 speed to outspeed adament scarfchomp, maybe a no-speed vertion as well?
+ nature 252 CS dugtrio
0 speed forretess
+ nature 252 froslass
+ nature 252 gallade
+ nature 176 jirachi (CB, C specs, CM sweeper)
136 jiraci (wish passser)
4 speed machamp
CS + nature 228 machamp
84 magnezone (outspeeds skarm)
CS + nature 228 magnezone
CS + nature 252 medicham
252 scizor
Tentacruel
252 yanmega after 1 speed boost
thats all i can think of right now
max speed +nature abomnasnow
choice scarf max speed +nature abomnasnow
batton pass (and subseed) celebi 176 evs + nature
cleric (or calm mind+leach seed) celebi 32 evs
non-salac charizard (specs, CB, sunny day) + nature 252
deoxys-s i would say add it, just so people can compare it to other pokemon during the test period. +nature 252 evs, + nature however many evs it needs for 500 speed to outspeed jolly scarfchomp, +nature however many evs it needs for 546 speed to outspeed adament scarfchomp, maybe a no-speed vertion as well?
+ nature 252 CS dugtrio
0 speed forretess
+ nature 252 froslass
+ nature 252 gallade
+ nature 176 jirachi (CB, C specs, CM sweeper)
136 jiraci (wish passser)
4 speed machamp
CS + nature 228 machamp
84 magnezone (outspeeds skarm)
CS + nature 228 magnezone
CS + nature 252 medicham
252 scizor
Tentacruel
252 yanmega after 1 speed boost
thats all i can think of right now
ok, but another guide for common speeds would be more usefull in my opinion.
many pokemon use max speed, but if you are in a battle and need to quickly check wether you are lightly to outspeed you oponent common spreads would be more handy.
also some OU's are not there, like machamp.
how about adding choice scarf timid 252 speed evs gengar at 525 speed