Aegislash has a number of checks without a doubt. However, Aegislash is fully capable of getting around whatever checks its teammates want removed. It was always known that Aegislash had a lot of checks, but almost of them were broken down by a varying Aegislash set.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Aegislash has a number of checks without a doubt. However, Aegislash is fully capable of getting around whatever checks its teammates want removed. It was always known that Aegislash had a lot of checks, but almost of them were broken down by a varying Aegislash set.
Question, is there an official definition for what a broken pokemon is because I've seen a lot of people say either aegi is or isn't broken and it seems extremely subjective.
The problem is that the general definition, or rather characteristics as being thrown around, is rather behind the times. Of course it still has relevance but if you are aiming for something more relevant to the times there is none, as the last attempt was done around gen 4.
Edit: Here is the old sticky
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/portrait-of-an-uber.43566/
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says preORAS arguments are bad, then rambles about the XY decision. Genius logic right there.
plz link aldaron's post because i have no clue what you are talking about
Why should the original decision even come into the picture? I completely agree that we have to look at the ORAS metagame, and not the XY one. That's the entire point of your post. So why should the XY decision be looked towards at all?
The burden of proof is always on the ban side, since it is way easier to argue that something is broken than it is to argue that it is not, and often people vote ban even when thing's aren't broken.
Your logic is extremely flawed, so I don't get how any of this constitutes QED. Your opinion can be formed without playing on the suspect ladder, since you look at new mons and then just extend the XY decision. I'm pretty sure that's not the way our decisions are supposed to be made, so I don't think your opinion is legitimate whatsoever.
And I've already justified why I think anti-ban arguments win, half of S and A+ mons beat it, and it's a check, not a counter to most things. So saying aegi/ has no counters when it's own niche is as a check seems very contradictory.
I'll just repost my opinion here for the ORAS metagame, not XY:
I can make the same arg about shedinja "every team will need to run a spin blocker and a bisharp. celebi jirachi, megagross... all are shit" you get the point. (I made an entire posting comparing aegi/ and shedinja, but AM censored it, sorry. But they literally have the same characteristics, besides the fact that shedinja is auto OHKOd, dies to hazards, and doesnt have ks) It's not about if it beats too much, its about if too little beats it. So thats why i think it isnt broken. It has no reliable recovery, so on stall you have to pass it wishes or heal bell after it rests. Landos beat it, chomp beats it, it cant beat keld most of the time, bisharp and zard eat it for breakfast... so it can never pull off a sweep effectively. Its best role is king shield 3 attacks, and the only argument there is 50-50s are op, which is pathetic. It's a 50-50 for both players, and I want a metagame with skill. I think we're all forgetting what the point of a suspect test is. It's not build the perfect meta, it's is this mon broken or not? and for aegi/, the answer is a resounding NO.
QED
i don't think you read my reply http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ts-read-post-268.3536089/page-19#post-6177529 to you at all. i pretty much addressed all your issues in a previous post a while back.
because we need to keep in mind why it left originally, and what changed such that it gives us the idea that aegi (something that was deemed to be too overcentralising to the metagame) will be beneficial to the metagame in some way shape or form.
actually, the burden of proof is usually on no one's side simply because this isn't a whole "innocent until proven guilty" shit. this is something that is seen through experience on the oras suspect ladder and a lot of the comments have already mentioned how strong aegi still is in the current meta.
your idea of half of S and A+ mons beating is through a very tinted 1v1 battle scenario that doesn't happen all the time. the sheer fact that it is a blanket check to a vast majority of what is good in the metagame right now is good reason as to why we are suspect testing it. however, the sheer fact that it is one of the rare mons with the rare niche of being able to take on these said threats with a combination of offensive and defensive measures is something worth taking note. just because the said mons beat it doesn't mean it's bad. back when m-mawile was still in OU, it was also something that could be taken down by a lot of the then s rank or a rank mons but that never stopped it from being good and getting the ban. ofc, unlike m-mawile, aegi isn't retardedly powerful. however, it has a really amazing defensive typing in the form of steel/ghost and an equally amazing offensive typing in the form of ghost. the idea behind proban side not wanting aegi back is because aegi is a "jack of all trades, master of them all" mon. whatever role you decide to give it, it will be able to do a very good job at it. this is why the proban side feel that if aegi were to come back down, the metagame will be even more centralised to the point where it is just "aegi + 1/2 aegi checks + 4/3 fillers" mirror matches like how it was shortly before aegislash got the ban. right now, all i've gathered from you is that "just because some top tier threats can beat it, hence it is merely a check and not a counter and because it's not a counter, it doesn't have the qualities to keep it ubers." however, you fail to look at the big picture in which that the 1v1 scenarios you list out rarely happen because of how battle scenarios work out. yet, due to how versatile aegislash is, it almost always gets to fulfill it's role on your team and it warps the tier into a game in which "who best plays their aegislash". OU is already pretty badly warped by matchup, but does aegislash solve the problem of matchup by being centralising? yes. but due to the centralising nature of aegislash, OU isn't going to be as colorful as we wanted it to be as it's just going to end up being games of "aegi + 1/2 aegi checks + 4/3 fillers" mirror matches.
im sorry to say this but this is entirely different. first off, shedinja doesn't have crazy offensive/defensive typing. it's typing is designed to be shit so that it's not crazy abusable. second, it's typing is next to shit in a tier where hazards thrive and you need at least 200% of your team support, just for shedinja to put in any work. however, aegi can support your team even when it's not meant to be the support. that's how good aegi actually is. the comparison between shedinja and aegislash is hilarious because the only thing they have in common is that they are ghost types and get shadow sneak + sd.
whut? if too little beats it then shouldn't it be a greater reason for us to keep it banned? o-o
subtox is actually one aegi's best sets and just having ks + lefties and shadow ball allows it to do it's job really well.
anyone with half a brain when it comes to competitive battling will tell you that lando/keld/zard are not things you set up with on aegislash. chomp beats it only if it's 1v1 and chomp has close to full health. bisharp is always a 5050 since sacred sword sucker punch games are always there.
wrong. it has no best role because it does all of it's roles equally well, hence making all of it's roles equally good.
why would you first say that playing with aegi is a 5050 game for both players, then proceed to say you want a metagame with skill and claim that aegi shouldn't be banned? this doesn't make sense at all. you haven't really proven how it isn't broken either. i've already mentioned how much aegislash warps the tier by it's presence itself. it has the typing to blanket check half of the meta and offensive presence to blanket check the other half. it can capably do it's role well as either a support or a cleaner/wallbreaker (the latter requires a bit of support but that support is not a far stretch to provide) and it overcentralises the tier by making it a tier full of "aegi + 1/2 aegi checks + 4/3 fillers" mirror matches. it has a lot of flexibility in it's sets and makes the game less healthy by making 5050 games more so a thing. hence, aegi has a lot of positive impacts on OU but it's negative impacts on OU are something we have been putting our utmost effort in preventing it from happening and as such, Aegi is too heavy of a mon for OU and should stay banned.
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Strangest thing I've heard in this thread: 150/150 offenses aren't all that high.
And that might be true, if Aegislash was a Mega. If we discount Megas, then Aegislash's 150 base Attack is beaten out by the following OU-Legal mons:
Kyurem-B
Rampardos
Slaking
Regigigas
When we include Megas, Aegislash is tied for the 19th highest attack stat in the game (including Ubers).
Aegislash's base 150 Special Attack is the highest of any OU-Legal, non-Mega mon. It is also tied for 16th highest in the game (again, including Ubers).
When we look at all OU Legal mons, including Megas, Aegislash's Special Attack is only beaten out by MAlakazam, MAmpharos, MGardevoir, MDiancie, MLatios, and MCharizard-Y. Its Attack is beaten out by MHeracross, MGarchomp, Kyurem-B, MGallade, Rampardos, MBanette, MTyranitar, MDiancie, Slaking, Regigigas, MPinsir, and MGyarados. These mons are all stronger than the leftovers set.
However, a Spooky Plate 252+ Shadow Ball hits as hard as a 189/190 base SpA Aegislash. A Life Orb Shadow Ball hits as hard as a base 210 Aegislash. So when we consider that Aegislash can viably hold boosting items unlike Megas, Aegislash has a functionally stronger offensive stat than anything but the higher base attack mons listed above, holding their own boosting item.
Aegislash is held back by its weaker BP moves, not any fault of its stats. Its defenses are also amazing enough to let it take hits much better than most of the Megas who have lower defenses in return for their great offenses.
While the lower base power of its moves is certainly a drawback, this is no reason to say that Aegislash doesn't have amazing offenses, especially since this is a limitation to all ghost and steel types, not Aegislash alone.
While I'm currently pro-Ubers, I feel like I could be convinced. Just not by this argument.
And that might be true, if Aegislash was a Mega. If we discount Megas, then Aegislash's 150 base Attack is beaten out by the following OU-Legal mons:
Kyurem-B
Rampardos
Slaking
Regigigas
When we include Megas, Aegislash is tied for the 19th highest attack stat in the game (including Ubers).
Aegislash's base 150 Special Attack is the highest of any OU-Legal, non-Mega mon. It is also tied for 16th highest in the game (again, including Ubers).
When we look at all OU Legal mons, including Megas, Aegislash's Special Attack is only beaten out by MAlakazam, MAmpharos, MGardevoir, MDiancie, MLatios, and MCharizard-Y. Its Attack is beaten out by MHeracross, MGarchomp, Kyurem-B, MGallade, Rampardos, MBanette, MTyranitar, MDiancie, Slaking, Regigigas, MPinsir, and MGyarados. These mons are all stronger than the leftovers set.
However, a Spooky Plate 252+ Shadow Ball hits as hard as a 189/190 base SpA Aegislash. A Life Orb Shadow Ball hits as hard as a base 210 Aegislash. So when we consider that Aegislash can viably hold boosting items unlike Megas, Aegislash has a functionally stronger offensive stat than anything but the higher base attack mons listed above, holding their own boosting item.
Aegislash is held back by its weaker BP moves, not any fault of its stats. Its defenses are also amazing enough to let it take hits much better than most of the Megas who have lower defenses in return for their great offenses.
While the lower base power of its moves is certainly a drawback, this is no reason to say that Aegislash doesn't have amazing offenses, especially since this is a limitation to all ghost and steel types, not Aegislash alone.
While I'm currently pro-Ubers, I feel like I could be convinced. Just not by this argument.
Now that I've played a bunch on the suspect ladder and have a better idea of what ORAS with Aegi looks like, here are my thoughts on it so far :
Aegislash itself is... beatable. I've only tried the LO 4 Attacks set and SubToxic sets and while they are both excellent, they don't 6-0 teams or anything and aren't qute as hard to deal with as I originally assumed they would be.
Unless you screw up, LO Aegi can almost always switch in on something, get one kill, and deal 20-40% chip damage on whatever revenges it. It rarely does more than that unless facing stall (which it basically beats on its own minus Gliscor), and rarely does less unless it mispredicts vs Bisharp.
SubToxic is a fantastic staller and pivot which cripples teams enormously, but usually ends up going down to repeated chip damage from switching into stuff, but not before seriously weakening the opposing team. It's kinda deadweight against teams with Bisharp, but pretty much always puts in work otherwise.
Haven't used the standard KS 3 Attacks set but I imagine it combines aspecs of both sets in one and is around as good as both of them. The metagame seems to have already adapted to Aegi somewhat so it's not unberable even if it consistently puts in a solid amount of work.
Mega Lopunny is just flat-out broken. Like... I guess the metagame will probably adapt to it eventually if Aegi gets unbanned, but right now I'd argue that it's even harder to deal with than Landorus (especially given how much more common HO is on the suspect ladder compared to the regular OU ladder). With Aegi around, absolutely everything just falls into place for Lopunny as was explained multiple times in this thread : the majority of things that used to handle it are liabilities in this meta, and as a result it completely destroys most teams you'll see on the ladder with little to no effort, bar I guess the ones running Hippowdon (which I've barely seen for whatever reason, possibly because it is and always has been a throughly mediocre Aegislash swicthin, espeically now with everyone and their mother running LO 4 Attacks or SubToxic). If Aegi gets unbanned, don't be too surprised to see Lopunny to be sent to Ubers in its place, becuase from experience, it's even better than anyone could have predicted.
Aegislash itself is... beatable. I've only tried the LO 4 Attacks set and SubToxic sets and while they are both excellent, they don't 6-0 teams or anything and aren't qute as hard to deal with as I originally assumed they would be.
Unless you screw up, LO Aegi can almost always switch in on something, get one kill, and deal 20-40% chip damage on whatever revenges it. It rarely does more than that unless facing stall (which it basically beats on its own minus Gliscor), and rarely does less unless it mispredicts vs Bisharp.
SubToxic is a fantastic staller and pivot which cripples teams enormously, but usually ends up going down to repeated chip damage from switching into stuff, but not before seriously weakening the opposing team. It's kinda deadweight against teams with Bisharp, but pretty much always puts in work otherwise.
Haven't used the standard KS 3 Attacks set but I imagine it combines aspecs of both sets in one and is around as good as both of them. The metagame seems to have already adapted to Aegi somewhat so it's not unberable even if it consistently puts in a solid amount of work.
Mega Lopunny is just flat-out broken. Like... I guess the metagame will probably adapt to it eventually if Aegi gets unbanned, but right now I'd argue that it's even harder to deal with than Landorus (especially given how much more common HO is on the suspect ladder compared to the regular OU ladder). With Aegi around, absolutely everything just falls into place for Lopunny as was explained multiple times in this thread : the majority of things that used to handle it are liabilities in this meta, and as a result it completely destroys most teams you'll see on the ladder with little to no effort, bar I guess the ones running Hippowdon (which I've barely seen for whatever reason, possibly because it is and always has been a throughly mediocre Aegislash swicthin, espeically now with everyone and their mother running LO 4 Attacks or SubToxic). If Aegi gets unbanned, don't be too surprised to see Lopunny to be sent to Ubers in its place, becuase from experience, it's even better than anyone could have predicted.
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I think Aegislash should stay banned, It would end up like greninja again anyways. I mean it is king's shield and access to a good movepool that made it a threat in the first place. and there arent very many sturdy counters, mainly special attackers but king's shield is annoying still. i just don't think aegislash should come back, it's too much of a threat and greninja was the best counter for it. with greninja not in OU, yeah it's gonna suck.
Either keep Aeigislash in Ubers or the OU Meta will be in Ruin
Either keep Aeigislash in Ubers or the OU Meta will be in Ruin
So I would like to debate some of these pokemon that you claim aegis "beats"
1. Mega Pidgeot actually beats aegi quite handily. It's immune its primary STAB of choice, takes reasonable damage from flash cannon, and deals heavy damage with heat wave:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 193-228 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 72-84 (22.2 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 166-196 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I'm not going to say it's an outright counter, but it's quite possibly one of the best offensive checks in the tier.
2. M-Glalie obviously never wants to swap into him (anymore then he wants to swap into anything else), but he beats special sets without flash cannon pretty well.
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Glalie: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Glalie Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 176-207 (54.3 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
3. Mega Sableye needs some sp defense investment to survive multiple shadow balls, but he underspeeds aegi and therefore can nail blade form with his own shadow ball / knock off quite nicely. I could see sp defensive m-sable rising in an aegi meta as the "one true aegi counter". It can even burn SD sets.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Mega Sableye: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4. M-Diancie can take a hit from the shadow ball - shadow sneak combo and 2hko shield form with EP. Like m-glal it loses to flash cannon sets. Obviously can't swap in.
5. Both physical and special m-alts can beat non-flash cannon aegi with EQ and fire blast respectively, neither can swap in unless max sp defense fire blast m-alt becomes a thing.
*edit*
obviously all of the above can revenge an aegi while it's in blade form, but that's nothing special.
Albacore thank you for this post. Lacking the time to ladder, I unfortunately can't provide the same solid anecdotal evidence, so being able to discuss the spirit of things high level players observe is the best I can contribute beyond low ladder matches. With that said:
This perfectly exemplifies my problem with the spirit of this Suspect test. Aegislash is being reintroduced as a fix to the metagame because we've reached a point where I can only assume we don't think there is anything to ban, since I would think it logical to get potential bans done first in case a drop test leads to "broken checks broken" sometimes.
Mega Lopunny is in no way something I would call an unhealthy mon. It's most definitely a threat to consider, but I doubt anyone was clamoring for a suspect of it. Let's assume that, hypothetically, the suspect above takes place and Lopunny is banned with Aegislash back. The number of bans would theoretically be the same, but we've banned a mon that otherwise wouldn't be considered broken save for the influence of Aegislash, as opposed to the Pokemon singlehandedly shaping/warping the tier.
I consider that collateral damage at that point, a ban that wasn't necessary for the health of the metagame because Aegislash (from the current circumstances I've seen) was not 100% proven to be healthy for the metagame either.
Aegislash doesn't even fix the match-up problem. Right now the issue is not being able to prepare for several dozen threats in six teamslots. Aegislash reduces that number to maybe 10-20 sure, but he makes some of them so much more potent that you need more checks to them on top of adding himself to the list. How is a meta where I need 1 check each to 6 threats (now with Lando, Altaria, Metagross, Keldeo, Gardevoir, Diancie) on my team any different than a meta where I need 2 checks each to 3 threats (Landorus, Lopunny, Bisharp, to say nothing of Aegislash himself)? He doesn't fix the issues with match-up, he just makes it more concentrated by having fewer mons that need MORE prep than before.
I will say it again, I disapprove of this test's spirit because Aegislash should be tested if we think the game is healthy, not because we think he will fix it. If we think there aren't any significant problems with the metagame, then testing Aegislash would be fine to see if the game is still that healthy with his presence. As it stands, this is us trading one questionably satisfying metagame for another. What, objectively, makes the Aegislash-centric metagame better than our current ORAS one that it should justify bringing as powerful a piece as Aegislash back in to reshape things by itself? If OU's purpose is a stable metagame with as few bans as possible, then the second anything gets banned in the Aegislash meta that wouldn't be without Aegislash such as the hypothetical Lopunny example, the premise is lost because we have equal (Lopunny undoing the one lost for dropping Aegislash) or more bans with Aegislash around than without him, all for a metagame that is subjectively better at best.
Might be a weird analogy, but think of this like fixing a plaster wall with some scuffs/holes (in the form of the problematic threats we have). The two options are to fix those holes by widening them slightly to fill in (with potential bans like Landorus-I that some people were calling for), or just putting a picture or a thick layer of plaster and paint over the wall (as I see Aegislash). The latter solution might look better, but you know you didn't fix the issues, you covered it up and are satisfied because things just look fine despite those imperfections still being there.
This perfectly exemplifies my problem with the spirit of this Suspect test. Aegislash is being reintroduced as a fix to the metagame because we've reached a point where I can only assume we don't think there is anything to ban, since I would think it logical to get potential bans done first in case a drop test leads to "broken checks broken" sometimes.
Mega Lopunny is in no way something I would call an unhealthy mon. It's most definitely a threat to consider, but I doubt anyone was clamoring for a suspect of it. Let's assume that, hypothetically, the suspect above takes place and Lopunny is banned with Aegislash back. The number of bans would theoretically be the same, but we've banned a mon that otherwise wouldn't be considered broken save for the influence of Aegislash, as opposed to the Pokemon singlehandedly shaping/warping the tier.
I consider that collateral damage at that point, a ban that wasn't necessary for the health of the metagame because Aegislash (from the current circumstances I've seen) was not 100% proven to be healthy for the metagame either.
Aegislash doesn't even fix the match-up problem. Right now the issue is not being able to prepare for several dozen threats in six teamslots. Aegislash reduces that number to maybe 10-20 sure, but he makes some of them so much more potent that you need more checks to them on top of adding himself to the list. How is a meta where I need 1 check each to 6 threats (now with Lando, Altaria, Metagross, Keldeo, Gardevoir, Diancie) on my team any different than a meta where I need 2 checks each to 3 threats (Landorus, Lopunny, Bisharp, to say nothing of Aegislash himself)? He doesn't fix the issues with match-up, he just makes it more concentrated by having fewer mons that need MORE prep than before.
I will say it again, I disapprove of this test's spirit because Aegislash should be tested if we think the game is healthy, not because we think he will fix it. If we think there aren't any significant problems with the metagame, then testing Aegislash would be fine to see if the game is still that healthy with his presence. As it stands, this is us trading one questionably satisfying metagame for another. What, objectively, makes the Aegislash-centric metagame better than our current ORAS one that it should justify bringing as powerful a piece as Aegislash back in to reshape things by itself? If OU's purpose is a stable metagame with as few bans as possible, then the second anything gets banned in the Aegislash meta that wouldn't be without Aegislash such as the hypothetical Lopunny example, the premise is lost because we have equal (Lopunny undoing the one lost for dropping Aegislash) or more bans with Aegislash around than without him, all for a metagame that is subjectively better at best.
Might be a weird analogy, but think of this like fixing a plaster wall with some scuffs/holes (in the form of the problematic threats we have). The two options are to fix those holes by widening them slightly to fill in (with potential bans like Landorus-I that some people were calling for), or just putting a picture or a thick layer of plaster and paint over the wall (as I see Aegislash). The latter solution might look better, but you know you didn't fix the issues, you covered it up and are satisfied because things just look fine despite those imperfections still being there.
The whole idea that Aegi forces you to run more stuff to check threats that are already potent is straight up bullshit.
In the current OU, you can run Mew, Slowbro, Hippo, Mega Venu, Chesnaught, Suicune, Gliscor, RH Chomp, and certain scarf mons to check Mega Lopunny (there are others but those are some of the more common answers to it). Of those, Aegi beats only two, one of which has Regen and is therefore not hindered at all by switching out again. Other than mew and Slowbro, Aegi does not force out any of the other threats, and can in fact be worn down itself by them (it does beat Venu if it gets a SDef drop tho). The only thing Aegi CAN do to these things is Toxic them if running the Sub Toxic set, which is fine, that does wear them down I suppose.
Please explain to me how Gengar does not accomplish the exact same thing in the current meta, only better. a simple 4 attacks LO gengar utterly demolishes all of Lopunny's checks much better than Aegislash can. You can tell me that Aegi is harder to wear down, but what does that have to do with its ability to lure and wear down Lopunny's counters? You don't need longevity to Icy Wind a Gliscor so Lopunny can sweep. The same can be said of SD Talon working as a partner to Lopunny (even Wisp/Taunt BU works there if you want a bulkier mon to pair with it). Lopunny in the hands of a competent team builder will have ways to deal with these things anyway. Why does this make Aegislash broken? Because it's simple and easy to put on teams?
And THAT argument is the only one I see as valid here. You don't like Aegislash's centralizing effect on the meta? That's just fine. You don't have to unban it. You clearly value a more diverse meta and there's nothing wrong with that. But don't sit here and tell me Aegi is broken because it wears down Hippo for Lopunny or switches into Lati for Lando/Zard Y. There are already a handful of options in the tier that do the exact same thing. That's just effective team building. It would be like me saying that Keldeo is broken because it wears down all of Zard Y, Lando, and Metagross's checks thus making them too broken for the tier. That would be an absurd statement, and of course people instead place the blame on Metagross and Landorus as they should. The same logic should be applied to Lopunny if you think it's broken in the Aegi meta.
- Aegislash was deemed Ubers, as in a level above other Pokemon, for being able to deal with way too much way too easily and dictate huge portions of the meta.
- We consider bringing Aegislash back, and the reasoning is that it can deal with even more things now (give us a unifying check to new threats)
Aegislash in OU is literally a one step forward two steps backward idea. Even if it acts as a god send blanket check we still end up with a meta that is Aegislash on every team and variance from this formula sets you up to fall prey to match up again anyways.
Just going to address one of the arguments I've heard used in this thread.
The unhealthy King's Shield 50/50 argument is just ridiculous. If most of the Pokemon used in OU relied on contact moves to damage Aegislash then this would be a more solid argument, but this simply isn't the case. Special attackers aren't affected, non-contact physical moves aren't affected, and Bisharp isn't affected. Pokemon like Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Scizor have their moves affected by King's Shield of course, but implying that this somehow heavily impacts whether Aegislash should stay in Ubers or move down to OU is something I can't agree with (Mega Lopunny and Mega Scizor can actually handle Aegislash pretty well). Bisharp creates a Sucker Punch/Pursuit 50/50 with ghosts and psychics, but Bisharp isn't broken or unhealthy for the tier. In fact, I'd argue that trapping is more broken in this aspect since it removes 50/50s altogether, but that's irrelevant.
Anyway, my thoughts on the Aegislash suspect: Aegislash should stay in Ubers. Plenty of arguments can be made about Aegislash not being broken in OU, but my opinion on its placement is more in regards to the current state of the meta (without Aegislash). I believe that we should fix the problems in the tier by getting rid of them instead of introducing a new problem in an attempt to fix the old problems. If a Pokemon is very clearly broken in the tier its in (Landorus-I and Mega Metagross imo) then we should have them banned. If people really want to reintroduce Uber Pokemon to OU, then that's fine, but we should be doing that after the meta is balanced, not before. Bringing Aegislash to OU will influx the tier to such a degree that it will take forever before we can actually achieve a balanced tier. Its not like Aegislash actually fixes much. It doesn't counter Landorus-I or Mega Metagross since both can 2HKO with Earth Power and Earthquake respectively and from my experience, the ladder is just as, if not more cancerous than the one lacking Aegislash. I don't really agree with this suspect test, but I'm definitely interested in it since it could set a precedent for suspect tests like these in the future.
The unhealthy King's Shield 50/50 argument is just ridiculous. If most of the Pokemon used in OU relied on contact moves to damage Aegislash then this would be a more solid argument, but this simply isn't the case. Special attackers aren't affected, non-contact physical moves aren't affected, and Bisharp isn't affected. Pokemon like Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Scizor have their moves affected by King's Shield of course, but implying that this somehow heavily impacts whether Aegislash should stay in Ubers or move down to OU is something I can't agree with (Mega Lopunny and Mega Scizor can actually handle Aegislash pretty well). Bisharp creates a Sucker Punch/Pursuit 50/50 with ghosts and psychics, but Bisharp isn't broken or unhealthy for the tier. In fact, I'd argue that trapping is more broken in this aspect since it removes 50/50s altogether, but that's irrelevant.
Anyway, my thoughts on the Aegislash suspect: Aegislash should stay in Ubers. Plenty of arguments can be made about Aegislash not being broken in OU, but my opinion on its placement is more in regards to the current state of the meta (without Aegislash). I believe that we should fix the problems in the tier by getting rid of them instead of introducing a new problem in an attempt to fix the old problems. If a Pokemon is very clearly broken in the tier its in (Landorus-I and Mega Metagross imo) then we should have them banned. If people really want to reintroduce Uber Pokemon to OU, then that's fine, but we should be doing that after the meta is balanced, not before. Bringing Aegislash to OU will influx the tier to such a degree that it will take forever before we can actually achieve a balanced tier. Its not like Aegislash actually fixes much. It doesn't counter Landorus-I or Mega Metagross since both can 2HKO with Earth Power and Earthquake respectively and from my experience, the ladder is just as, if not more cancerous than the one lacking Aegislash. I don't really agree with this suspect test, but I'm definitely interested in it since it could set a precedent for suspect tests like these in the future.
Standard Aegi would only be capable of forcing out two, but Aegi always has the option of mixing it up a little. There are indeed many checks to the various Aegislash sets, but usually only to a particular one / two, and the opponent usually cannot afford to send in other responses because most of the mons you've mentioned tend to be the only Aegislash switch-ins they have (and even then the total number of Aegi switch-ins is scarce). What this means is that Aegislash can very easily lure most of its limited checks and counters that happen to stop your wincons, especially since it has the movepool and stats to do so. For example, I can make a Shuca HP Ice Aegislash and BOOM, that's 3 more potential MLop checks blasted out the window before they know what hit them.
So you'd argue the concept of luring is nothing new and doesn't apply to Aegislash alone. The big difference is that you can tailor an Aegislash set almost solely to lure out the problematic threats to your other Pokemon, and you can still expect Aegislash to function well even outside of its luring purposes simply because of its excellent power and neutral coverage. That is by far the biggest reason for Aegislash's splashability on teams; you can tweak it however the hell you want, and even if its luring moves end up useless that doesn't mean Aegislash doesn't present a substantial threat to the opponent in the meantime. Essentially this means there is rarely a 'worst case scenario' for putting lure moves on Aegislash, and makes it a highly appealing 'safe mon' to use.
Well for one, Aegislash can switch into most of the shit used to revenge MLop, unlike Gengar. But more importantly, while Gengar does demolish MLop's checks, but what it doesn't do is lure them. Everyone knows what a Gengar can do and what to send in on it in response. With Aegislash, the opponent can never be certain at first glance and sends in their 'safest option' to handle Aegislash. Aegislash can easily take advantage of some of the potential safe switches the opponent has with a couple of tech move(s) or even items to blast them, clearing the way for your other wincons. If the opponent doesn't have the targets for Aegislash to lure, that only means Aegislash itself can come out guns blazings as well. Now realize that this can apply for a large majority of offensive Pokemon in the tier, with Aegislash systematically picking off their obstacles. Being simple and easy to put onto teams definitely helps Aegislash's case, since the likes of Gengar doesn't have the characteristics to support nearly as much Pokemon as Aegislash does (Keldeo, Landorus, YZard are others that immediately come into mind).
For the most part, I never saw Aegislash as a 'broken Pokemon that can steamroll the meta', and even acknowledge the fact that Aegi can only do so much alone. However, what I do find ridiculous is the sheer number of Pokemon Aegislash pairs well with and how well it does it, plus most of those Pokemon are already top-tier threats that only stand to get even stronger with Aegislash's support. This even includes some of the Pokemon Aegislash is supposed to check, such as Mega Diancie and Serperior and whatnot, so while Aegislash is introduced to lessen their impact on the tier it inadvertently bolsters their potency at the same time. Basically, Aegislash truly is something you can just slap onto a team, tweak its moveset accordingly, and put in work; it is indeed that simple. As pika pal said, I'm not sure if I'm all for trading this matchup-reliant meta for a meta where teambuilding is super streamlined and made easier just by slapping an Aegislash on it, with most if not all teams aiming to build around utilizing it and checking it. There was a reason it was called the ultimate gluemon back in the day.
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What changed in ORAS that makes Aegislash healthier now?
As mentioned, its previous ban was debatable, has new checks and will be less centralizing than before.
I already explained in numerous posts how Aegislash faces more trouble in ORAS thanks to the previous bans and new checks and the only things I get as replies are "it's still to overcentralizing". It's fine if you think so but saying that the anti-ban side didn't provide any reasons and has the burden of prove is just false.
In addition, Aegislash has now more trouble running other sets than the typical tank-set with leftovers. Many people are spamming LO + 4 attacks to show how it can deal with everything but as already explained, it is a bit more difficult now to pull it off because Aegislash has to check more threats now. You say that this makes Aegislash even worse than in XY, I say that all of Aegislash's non-bulky sets will loose viability (they won't become useless, but higher opportunity cost).
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 164-194 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Altaria looses? Against the bulky set it has to predict the switch-in and hope to not get a low damage-roll. Without the bulk it cannot even switch into Hypervoice without getting straight up KOed by Fire Blast, especially if we factor in rocks.
Like I said: The standard-set was most common for a reason.
Beedrill doesn't care THAT much about Aegislash since it will just U-Turn out to a check bringing it in safely. It can even Knock Off his Leftovers, so despite being helpless on paper Aegislash doesn't really appreciate Beedrill.
I won't go into detail with all the others since someone already did that.
What I meant to entail is the fact that Aegislash alone does this very easily for the other top threats and is not just easy, but almost necessary to include on your team in OU. Gengar does a better job demolishing Lopunny's checks, obviously, but as good as he is, Gengar isn't as splashable as Aegislash is because of his vulnerability to priority and fraility. Aegislash is almost certainly going to be on the team, so its a matter of using the Megas he supports well. I concede Aegislash can't beat all of Lopunny's checks with one set, but the fact remains he can beat most of them in some manner or another. Also, these are among the things viable in the current OU, but there's the question of how many would remain that viable with Aegislash around, since with King's Shield and his numerous resistances, Choice users become a liability. Also, as Punchshroom noted, Aegislash is able to switch in on most of these in some respect, compared to Gengar having to revenge most of them or needing an outright free switch.
The other thing is that Aegislash changes up its set, but I never find Aegislash becoming significantly less effective in a particular respect because of it. What may deal with Aegislash's SubToxic set can be demolished with his LO 4 Attacks set, for example. Now, the idea of luring a mon is nothing new, but Aegislash doesn't compromise his effectiveness in doing so, because his own different sets already act effectively as lures. Most cases of Lures (such as Natural Gift Talonflame or pre-standard Freeze Dry Mamoswine), the Pokemon uses what would otherwise be a less effective option to beat the supposed check/counter for a teammate. If I run Freeze Dry Mamoswine against a team without Rotom-W, he works, but is basically out a moveslot. Aegislash doesn't have this issue because if there's no SubToxic checks to lure with the LO 3 Attacks set, I can still probably get an equal amount of work out of him using LO 3 Attacks anyway. Aegislash does not compromise effectiveness against what you want him to handle by luring checks to his teammates.
And the other point I want to elaborate on is this one
The discrepancy here is that Aegislash just does this outright for so many Pokemon compared to Keldeo, because he works on so many team archetypes inherently. Aegislash can be made to Lure and beat mons for Stall as easily as for Balance. The other issue is that Keldeo is already here, but we're bringing Aegislash down to put threats in line, who end up benefiting more from his presence than being hindered by it.
Aegislash, I feel, is the easiest Pokemon in the game from a teambuilding perspective: there is almost no team he is a poor fit for, and there is no team that is better without him or where he would not put in work.
Aegislash is the Guile's Theme of OU: He goes with EVERYTHING.
Ok this is my opinion but Aegislash needs to go back to OU. I mean he counters threats that completely annoy the tier like Chansey (Sacred Sword). And it's proven Aegislash can be stopped by Sableye I mean he completely rapes him. And Lopunny OHKOs him with High Jump Kick! And not to mention Earthquake is on EVERY OU TEAM. And wtf should Aegi do in Ubers? In there hes a wasted pokemon.
Little disappointed that this is all happening during exam week, but here's hoping that Aegislash comes back. The metagame was getting all kinds of unplayable to the point where I actually wanted the Giratina suspect to be real so that we'd actually have a halfway decent blanket check to all of the ridiculous teams going around. I think a lot of people are giving Aegislash too much credit as well. Many threats aren't completely invalidated with Aegislash (things like Gallade and Heracross being the most laughable as both have the ability to beat Aegislash under common circumstance).
Don't really have much to say that hasn't been said though, but I think it would make the game more fun and less matchup reliant having gen 6's most polarizing Pokemon back in OU.
Don't really have much to say that hasn't been said though, but I think it would make the game more fun and less matchup reliant having gen 6's most polarizing Pokemon back in OU.
Most of the arguments have already been gone over at this point in the thread. Although, hopefully, more discussion can help sway potential voter's opinion one way or the other.
I've watched a good number of Aegislash games on the ladder, and some of the posts in this thread have been saying how Lopunny becomes difficult to counter in this meta when paired with Aegislash, how it just devolves the game to Lati, Keldeo, Lando I, Bisharp, and Aegislash being extremely common, and a large portion of OU becomes much less viable with Aegislash around.
I can say, from my perspective, although the meta usually has a small number of mons that are very common anyway, this is all correct. Now, some things I'm never gonna do aregive you up, say that Aegislash should be banned because I want to use a certain pokemon, or say that because another pokemon becomes broken with Aegi around, that we should keep Aegi banned. As for the last point, the main pokemon I'll be looking at when explaining what I think is a more rational argument is Lopunny in this post.
Really, an argument that may convince some from the unban side is that because Aegislash reduces the number of pokemon in OU, that it alleviates matchup issues, and that this is good for the meta. While it is true that Aegislash does reduce the number of pokemon in OU, I certainly do not agree that it prevents matchup issues. People initially thought that this was the case because it reduces the number of threats, but I for one did not consider the possibility that it also dramatically limits the responses to those threats. While Metagross and Diancie might have gone down in terms of effectiveness, threats like Lopunny now have few switch-ins to beat them; I'm much more reluctant to use Clefable or Slowbro to take on Lopunny now that Aegislash is around. I'm not going to claim that Lopunny is over-centralising because of this, because it does have some switch-ins, but it does mean that many teams that aren't built right from the get-go with it in mind will be weak to it, and so will suffer from exactly what bringing Aegislash down would try to prevent: A bad matchup.
As for Aegislash itself, it's undeniably a very good pokemon despite players trying to prepare for it as best they can. That being said, I'm very aware that it isn't sweeping teams by itself. As to what it does, that's really another matter, because it can really do whatever you want. If you need something to chip away at defensive stuff like Hippowdon with Toxic damage racking up, it can. If you need something to break teams apart with very strong coverage and hard-hitting moves, giving it very few switch-ins, it can. Although I'm personally not a fan of it, the SD set to clean up is also an option. Obviously, all of these sets will fill the function of checking a large number of mons, and being a good switch-in to stuff like Lati. The issue with this is that it just takes splashable to another level. Some might say that certain pokemon become used again and again anyway, and that it isn't a bad decision to add another pokemon that just becomes one of those. The key difference between Aegislash, and very common pokemon, like, for example, Latios or Keldeo, is that when you used the latter two, you have some idea of the qualities you want from them, and how your team can benefit from them before you put them on a team. A Keldeo check with hazard removal is understandably an in-demand role, as is a scald-spamming Bish check. However, you can safely put Aegislash on your team before deciding what set benefits you the most, because considering all of the possibilities it brings to the table, there's really very little reason not to.
It doesn't even need to be stated that while 50/50s are present in the game anyway, Aegislash forces excessive 50/50s, and it isn't too uncommon for games to be decided by whether the opponent uses KS or not. Hopefully, suspect voters can agree that a metagame where 50/50s are not overly excessive is preferable to a metagame where 50/50s are, and see that this is yet another reason to keep Aegislash in Ubers. As for the KS ban, Aegislash has sets, mainly the All out attacker one, that are still very effective without it. If it doesn't contribute to the meta by alleviating matchup issues, and dramatically limits options in building, there is still no reason to bring it down. Furthermore, it's been mentioned that this is an irritating halfway house choice, Blaze Blaziken isn't legal anywhere but Ubers, neither is Torrent Greninja, therefore neither should KS-less Aegislash, and this is a point that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Overall, the metagame has essentially changed from something which, while it may be messy, it is at least somewhat diverse, into Aegi with a good number of Aegi checks while using as little stuff that loses to it as possible, only real exceptions that come to mind being the Latis. Personally, just from my own teambuilding perspective and how limited my options are in how I can choose to piece something together, that really just results in a stagnant game that will only get more and more dull over time. In conclusion, I urge people not to vote unban because they are dissatisfied with the current metagame, a much more sensible approach seems to be to suspect more pokemon currently in OU rather than let another back in, and to keep this highly splashable, 50/50 causing, metagame stagnating threat in Ubers where it belongs.
I've watched a good number of Aegislash games on the ladder, and some of the posts in this thread have been saying how Lopunny becomes difficult to counter in this meta when paired with Aegislash, how it just devolves the game to Lati, Keldeo, Lando I, Bisharp, and Aegislash being extremely common, and a large portion of OU becomes much less viable with Aegislash around.
I can say, from my perspective, although the meta usually has a small number of mons that are very common anyway, this is all correct. Now, some things I'm never gonna do are
Really, an argument that may convince some from the unban side is that because Aegislash reduces the number of pokemon in OU, that it alleviates matchup issues, and that this is good for the meta. While it is true that Aegislash does reduce the number of pokemon in OU, I certainly do not agree that it prevents matchup issues. People initially thought that this was the case because it reduces the number of threats, but I for one did not consider the possibility that it also dramatically limits the responses to those threats. While Metagross and Diancie might have gone down in terms of effectiveness, threats like Lopunny now have few switch-ins to beat them; I'm much more reluctant to use Clefable or Slowbro to take on Lopunny now that Aegislash is around. I'm not going to claim that Lopunny is over-centralising because of this, because it does have some switch-ins, but it does mean that many teams that aren't built right from the get-go with it in mind will be weak to it, and so will suffer from exactly what bringing Aegislash down would try to prevent: A bad matchup.
As for Aegislash itself, it's undeniably a very good pokemon despite players trying to prepare for it as best they can. That being said, I'm very aware that it isn't sweeping teams by itself. As to what it does, that's really another matter, because it can really do whatever you want. If you need something to chip away at defensive stuff like Hippowdon with Toxic damage racking up, it can. If you need something to break teams apart with very strong coverage and hard-hitting moves, giving it very few switch-ins, it can. Although I'm personally not a fan of it, the SD set to clean up is also an option. Obviously, all of these sets will fill the function of checking a large number of mons, and being a good switch-in to stuff like Lati. The issue with this is that it just takes splashable to another level. Some might say that certain pokemon become used again and again anyway, and that it isn't a bad decision to add another pokemon that just becomes one of those. The key difference between Aegislash, and very common pokemon, like, for example, Latios or Keldeo, is that when you used the latter two, you have some idea of the qualities you want from them, and how your team can benefit from them before you put them on a team. A Keldeo check with hazard removal is understandably an in-demand role, as is a scald-spamming Bish check. However, you can safely put Aegislash on your team before deciding what set benefits you the most, because considering all of the possibilities it brings to the table, there's really very little reason not to.
It doesn't even need to be stated that while 50/50s are present in the game anyway, Aegislash forces excessive 50/50s, and it isn't too uncommon for games to be decided by whether the opponent uses KS or not. Hopefully, suspect voters can agree that a metagame where 50/50s are not overly excessive is preferable to a metagame where 50/50s are, and see that this is yet another reason to keep Aegislash in Ubers. As for the KS ban, Aegislash has sets, mainly the All out attacker one, that are still very effective without it. If it doesn't contribute to the meta by alleviating matchup issues, and dramatically limits options in building, there is still no reason to bring it down. Furthermore, it's been mentioned that this is an irritating halfway house choice, Blaze Blaziken isn't legal anywhere but Ubers, neither is Torrent Greninja, therefore neither should KS-less Aegislash, and this is a point that I wholeheartedly agree with.
Overall, the metagame has essentially changed from something which, while it may be messy, it is at least somewhat diverse, into Aegi with a good number of Aegi checks while using as little stuff that loses to it as possible, only real exceptions that come to mind being the Latis. Personally, just from my own teambuilding perspective and how limited my options are in how I can choose to piece something together, that really just results in a stagnant game that will only get more and more dull over time. In conclusion, I urge people not to vote unban because they are dissatisfied with the current metagame, a much more sensible approach seems to be to suspect more pokemon currently in OU rather than let another back in, and to keep this highly splashable, 50/50 causing, metagame stagnating threat in Ubers where it belongs.
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Alright, I think I can better articulate my problem with an Aegislash meta vs a(n overly) diverse meta: The difference in what evolution/adaptation entails.
Let's take CBB's Bulky Root Dragonite set. This was him coming up with a set to deal with prominent offensive threats such as Landorus-I and Zard-Y (also currently covers TG+RD Manaphy, Choice Locked Keldeo, Gengar, Tornadus-T, EQ can get Raikou). For this set to lose steam, a good number of the things it check would have to adapt as well (Manaphy taking Ice Beam, HP Ice Lando, etc.). This allowed the set to retain viability despite Meta Trends because the odds of all these mons adopting these changes wasn't extremely likely, since the moves they would need caused them to miss out on other things they checked. Side note, this was developed in the Aegislash meta and took 2 Shadow Balls from him. That said, comparing to the next idea I discuss, I consider this more the exception than the rule within an Aegislash environment.
Now, for the problem I have with the Aegislash meta: most adaptation is based around Aegislash. The second something alters itself to deal with him well, it sacrifices a bit of viability against other opponents to beat the Sword. However, Aegislash doesn't often stand to lose a great deal by tweaking itself if that mon turns out to be that much a problem for the team. For example, say I adapt a Chople Berry Heatran set to deal with Aegislash's mixed and SubToxic sets. What if Aegislash's offensive sets take to using a moveslot for HP Ground (considering Shadow Ball gets it decent mileage already)? That set I experimented with loses whatever viability it had because Aegislash can now beat it, it's less effective against other things Heatran checks, and odds are if Aegislash could swap in that option, its teammates could beat whatever that slot was covering before anyway.
In a metagame with something as centralizing as Aegislash, pushing a set out usually depends as much if not more on whether or not Aegislash has a means to adapt effectively as the rest of the meta does. That one Pokemon, by adapting, has the ability to very easily invalidate the adaptations of dozens of other Pokemon, and dictates the metagame trends almost entirely on its own. That game favors the capability of one Pokemon to force dozens of others to adapt, rather than vice versa.
While not outright broken like some other suspects might have been (or at least not seeming so), Aegislash creates an even more extreme trend of centralization than those mons do. Greninja centralized the game around hyper offensive playstyles by breaking Balance, as did the Deo's with Hazard Stacking. Aegislash dictates the tier play his way even moreso. It's not just a matter like most S-Ranks requiring you to account for them; Aegislash requires you build to check him just to have the ability to try and defeat him.
And lastly, I feel like people are bringing down Aegislash because he will bring a different Metagame, but I'm not convinced all of them believe they will actually prefer such a metagame in the long run (I will not deny that some people legitimately and have valid reasons to prefer such however).
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Sableye can match-up decently, not sure how much I'd say he "completely rapes him" as mentioned. Chansey is one of the less annoying things in the tier just because its passiveness makes it easy to exploit.
Lopunny OHKOs w/ High Jump Kick, but she's really gotta watch out for King's Shield and the recoil (ignoring the Attack Drop for that matter).
Earthquake is on plenty of teams, but plenty of mons like Pinsir, Heracross, Zard-X, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Aerodactyl would prefer to use the moveslot for something else.
And lastly, Ubers viability does not dictate if a Pokemon is banned. It's based on if they have a negative effect on OU, the tier they are being banned from. Also, Aegislash is sitting mid-B's in Ubers, while Mawile, Lucario, and Deoxys D is in C/C- rank. Does that mean we should unban Mega Mawile, Mega Lucario, and Deoxys-D?
Let's take CBB's Bulky Root Dragonite set. This was him coming up with a set to deal with prominent offensive threats such as Landorus-I and Zard-Y (also currently covers TG+RD Manaphy, Choice Locked Keldeo, Gengar, Tornadus-T, EQ can get Raikou). For this set to lose steam, a good number of the things it check would have to adapt as well (Manaphy taking Ice Beam, HP Ice Lando, etc.). This allowed the set to retain viability despite Meta Trends because the odds of all these mons adopting these changes wasn't extremely likely, since the moves they would need caused them to miss out on other things they checked. Side note, this was developed in the Aegislash meta and took 2 Shadow Balls from him. That said, comparing to the next idea I discuss, I consider this more the exception than the rule within an Aegislash environment.
Now, for the problem I have with the Aegislash meta: most adaptation is based around Aegislash. The second something alters itself to deal with him well, it sacrifices a bit of viability against other opponents to beat the Sword. However, Aegislash doesn't often stand to lose a great deal by tweaking itself if that mon turns out to be that much a problem for the team. For example, say I adapt a Chople Berry Heatran set to deal with Aegislash's mixed and SubToxic sets. What if Aegislash's offensive sets take to using a moveslot for HP Ground (considering Shadow Ball gets it decent mileage already)? That set I experimented with loses whatever viability it had because Aegislash can now beat it, it's less effective against other things Heatran checks, and odds are if Aegislash could swap in that option, its teammates could beat whatever that slot was covering before anyway.
In a metagame with something as centralizing as Aegislash, pushing a set out usually depends as much if not more on whether or not Aegislash has a means to adapt effectively as the rest of the meta does. That one Pokemon, by adapting, has the ability to very easily invalidate the adaptations of dozens of other Pokemon, and dictates the metagame trends almost entirely on its own. That game favors the capability of one Pokemon to force dozens of others to adapt, rather than vice versa.
While not outright broken like some other suspects might have been (or at least not seeming so), Aegislash creates an even more extreme trend of centralization than those mons do. Greninja centralized the game around hyper offensive playstyles by breaking Balance, as did the Deo's with Hazard Stacking. Aegislash dictates the tier play his way even moreso. It's not just a matter like most S-Ranks requiring you to account for them; Aegislash requires you build to check him just to have the ability to try and defeat him.
And lastly, I feel like people are bringing down Aegislash because he will bring a different Metagame, but I'm not convinced all of them believe they will actually prefer such a metagame in the long run (I will not deny that some people legitimately and have valid reasons to prefer such however).
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 158-188 (48.7 - 58%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
While Sableye can match-up decently, not sure how much I'd say he "completely rapes him" as mentioned. Chansey is one of the less annoying things in the tier just because its passiveness makes it easy to exploit.
Lopunny OHKOs w/ High Jump Kick, but she's really gotta watch out for King's Shield and the recoil (ignoring the Attack Drop for that matter).
Earthquake is on plenty of teams, but plenty of mons like Pinsir, Heracross, Zard-X, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Aerodactyl would prefer to use the moveslot for something else.
And lastly, Ubers viability does not dictate if a Pokemon is banned. It's based on if they have a negative effect on OU, the tier they are being banned from. Also, Aegislash is sitting mid-B's in Ubers, while Mawile, Lucario, and Deoxys D is in C/C- rank. Does that mean we should unban Mega Mawile, Mega Lucario, and Deoxys-D?
Gonna be totally honest and say that I stopped reading your post a couple sentences in, because it was going nowhere soon. Also, please forgive the personal attack, you weren't even around for the original test lol
Instead, let me reiterate what you missed out on.
1. The most important part of this suspect test is the fact that Aegislash is already banned. It was deemed to be a poor fit for the metagame. Nobody gives a shit if you thought otherwise, because the qualified players came to a general consensus, and it was banned. This was a close vote, so there is a bit more lee-way in that regard, but the premise still stands. So, it is up to the anti-ban side to prove that it isn't broken. The pro-ban side did their job a year ago. End of story.
Oops, turns out that ^ was p much the only thing that I said in the first place aside from the sidenote that Aegislash is even better now than before.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-of-perdition.3511596/page-21#post-5591004
That post you wanted ^. It's especially noteworthy tht it deals with Aegislash as a pokemon and doesn't even touch on the centralization side of things.
And lol @ talk of nitpicking rayquaza example. It's not nitpicking if the argument is founded on an example, and the only example given was the shittiest one to ever grace the smogon forums (ie. There was NO example cuz there is no actual example because bad argument).
thesecondbest said:
I don't think you understand; it WAS proven guilty lol.
No point in continuing the argument. Not much more to say.
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Ok let's say Mega Sableye has some calm minds up. Then that completely changes that. Let's have him have… +2 for example then Aegis shadow ball would do a lot less damage! And with that only about 69% chance to 2 hit KO it can really bite you in the ass when it gets min damage and Sableye Recovers so yeah that's my point on that. And ik ubers viability does not depend on test. I was pointing out that if Aegi was sent to jail again he would be wasted.
Or instead of making up unrealistic and one-sided scenarios you could concede that Sableye does not in fact beat Aegislash 100% of the time. Nobody really cares if Aegislash is bad in Ubers, that is completely irrelevant to the topic.
I'll toss in my two cents about Aegislash. I'm talking about this in terms of 'pressure'. Simply put, Defensive pressure is the ability to take hits (and as a result force switches), and Offensive pressure is the ability to deal damage (and as a result discourage switches).
Defensively, Aegislsh exerts a lot of pressure in way of checking/countering a lot of the tier, KS Shenanigans, and durability. In this regard, Aegislash is probably most comparable to Heatran (they deal with similar threats, similar methods of recovery) if not better due checking more things+SR resist+KS+Spinblocking+Power. Heatran does have some leverage on Aegislash (SR+Roar+Taunt), but for argument's sake we'll say that Aegislash's benefits match those. So, since (at least here) Heatran's defensive set is ranked A+, I'd say Aegislash has A+ defensive qualities since, even without special defense investment, Aegislash only takes ~5% more from LO Latios's Draco meteor (only one threat but you get the idea, in Shield form unless your move invested SE STAB it isn't going to OHKO Aegislash and even then it might miss that benchmark).
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 100-118 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 90.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Offensively (capacity to deal damage), Aegislash also applies a lot of pressure. To keep this short, if something can switch in on a particular Aegislash set (a handfull of pokemon for each set), there's probably another viable set that it won't like switching in on (Mandibuzz and SubToxic) or a coverage move it can't afford to come in on (Bisharp and Sacred Sword), which limits the number of things that can consistently deal with an Aegislash. With that in mind, I don't really know what to compare Aegislash to. Its very versatile and also very powerful, I'd put it at A- in offense because its speed can be somewhat of a letdown to capitalize on 150/150 offenses+coverage without having to go back into shield mode.
The way I look at this, Aegislash applies too much immediate pressure on both ends of the spectrum (~A+ defense and ~A- offense) on the opposing team to be healthy for the tier. Most things that are offensive juggernauts aren't the most durable (Keldeo), whereas a lot of defensive pokemon have exploitable offensive capabilities (Ferrothorn) or just take time to get going (CM Clefable). However Aegislash is capable of coming in on a lot of threats (defensive pressure) and forcing them out because they either cannot deal enough damage to justify staying in (defensive pressure) or are man-handled by one of Aegislash's moves (offensive pressure), all the while discouraging switch ins because of good coverage options+powerful STAB (offensive pressure). I cannot think of another OU legal pokemon who can do that as consistently as Aegislash can, while also having as low a consequence to use as Aegislash.
Speaking of the OP, I want to address this part of it.
Defensively, Aegislsh exerts a lot of pressure in way of checking/countering a lot of the tier, KS Shenanigans, and durability. In this regard, Aegislash is probably most comparable to Heatran (they deal with similar threats, similar methods of recovery) if not better due checking more things+SR resist+KS+Spinblocking+Power. Heatran does have some leverage on Aegislash (SR+Roar+Taunt), but for argument's sake we'll say that Aegislash's benefits match those. So, since (at least here) Heatran's defensive set is ranked A+, I'd say Aegislash has A+ defensive qualities since, even without special defense investment, Aegislash only takes ~5% more from LO Latios's Draco meteor (only one threat but you get the idea, in Shield form unless your move invested SE STAB it isn't going to OHKO Aegislash and even then it might miss that benchmark).
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 100-118 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 90.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Offensively (capacity to deal damage), Aegislash also applies a lot of pressure. To keep this short, if something can switch in on a particular Aegislash set (a handfull of pokemon for each set), there's probably another viable set that it won't like switching in on (Mandibuzz and SubToxic) or a coverage move it can't afford to come in on (Bisharp and Sacred Sword), which limits the number of things that can consistently deal with an Aegislash. With that in mind, I don't really know what to compare Aegislash to. Its very versatile and also very powerful, I'd put it at A- in offense because its speed can be somewhat of a letdown to capitalize on 150/150 offenses+coverage without having to go back into shield mode.
The way I look at this, Aegislash applies too much immediate pressure on both ends of the spectrum (~A+ defense and ~A- offense) on the opposing team to be healthy for the tier. Most things that are offensive juggernauts aren't the most durable (Keldeo), whereas a lot of defensive pokemon have exploitable offensive capabilities (Ferrothorn) or just take time to get going (CM Clefable). However Aegislash is capable of coming in on a lot of threats (defensive pressure) and forcing them out because they either cannot deal enough damage to justify staying in (defensive pressure) or are man-handled by one of Aegislash's moves (offensive pressure), all the while discouraging switch ins because of good coverage options+powerful STAB (offensive pressure). I cannot think of another OU legal pokemon who can do that as consistently as Aegislash can, while also having as low a consequence to use as Aegislash.
Speaking of the OP, I want to address this part of it.
From how I'm reading it, it seems like this isn't so much a test of whether or not Aegislash is broken or not, but rather a test to see if Aegislash will make the metagame more bearable by dealing with the threats currently dominating the metagame (which really throws a wrench in the first part of this post). So, if Aegislash isn't going to help make these threats more manageable (it checks a lot of them but can work to make some of them more difficult to manage) then, even if Aegislash isn't broken, I don't think it should be reintroduced to the metagame just yet. Feel free to inform me if I'm wrong about this (please do) because that would help.
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I wish i stopped reading this post a few sentences in because it just restates your point, so I'll just move on to aldaron's post since that actually has decent material. But briefly, I don't give a shit about whether it was voted uber or was ou before the test started; Innocent until proven guilty is how the legal system in the best fucking country in the world works; not different from the rest of ou unless proven is how statistics works; in debate the burden of proof is on the affirmative, and just because your personal stance says we can't overturn the pass gives me no reason to vote ban.
Like I said, since aldaron's post actually has meat (and a shit ton of rice) i'll counter that.
First of all, he should play pu. His whole argument is that there are too many mons, and if we continue with his philosophy, everything will quickly get banned. (That's slightly better than the stale ou we live in since at least we get new shitty metas every now and then) Insofar as that's what he thinks, even if aegislash is too good, it checking the rest of the tier means there is less broken stuff, and therefore even if there is more overcentralization, at least OU won't be matchup based.
Then, he talks about the arbitrary decisions in a battle, but the fact that freeing the sword allows us to have a less matchup based tier OUTWEIGHS the in round argument, as if showdown is shitty while team building, that is way worse than it being shitty while battling. Expanding on this because of 9Tails guy, you should read it though
Many voters are willing to accept the premise that all issues in the test are debatable. This openness gives debaters a great deal of leeway in formulating "the rules of the game". Since these theory arguments are one of the few areas where analysis is still more important than calcs, anyone can make and defend a stance in detail about what the ideal battle should be like. But if even while team building, you can't cover all the threats, then that is definitely unbalanced, giving my argument a 100% strength of link, whereas your arguments are debatable. Bringing back aegi/ will completely change this, allowing us to check many threats (not counter, which is why aegislash isn't too good). Even if the meta will be centralized it will still be an improvement. Heatran had like 75% usage in gen 4(which is the last good meta according to Aldaron) but it was never banned. Sure, we all ran scarf flygon to beat it, the protect on tran and shuca berry etc, but it was not considered bannable. If we change he definition of bannable to what aldaron wants, then we'll have to ban so much crap. Like I said, that definition is debatable, but it is a cold hard conceded fact that the current meta is matchup based. That's why I outweigh aldaron's argument.
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