Linked

Isa Simple

Isa Simple

So I've noticed there aren't many priority links and was looking for more and found some real cool niches imo.

Firstly I noticed the move Snatch!
Snatch has +4 Priority and steals the effects of the next status move the opponent uses that turn.
That includes all kinds of things like Subs, Screens, Boosting moves and Recovery moves, as well as plenty of other odd balls.

So given that there is so much of these(^) kinda things going on in this meta I'm thinking even by itself Snatch could be strong, but where is the fun in that amirite?

Some pokemon that can abuse Snatch while maintaining its priority in a link are as follows:
Prankster users such as; Liepard, Murkrow, Sableye, and Mega Banette.
And Priority attacker such as; Honchkrow, (Mega) Absol, Bisharp, Kecleon, Weavile and Breloom.
There are also plenty of others but these are the ones jumping to mind. (Also remember you could link Snatch with Protect if you're "one of those people").

Them Sucker Punch abusers imo would be cool as you cover both bases as to whether they use an attacking or status move. Also they could use both in a link which would be pretty nice. Though standard priority attackers like Breloom, Weavile and Mega Banette or Kecleon are still more reliable.
Also something defensive like Sableye linking Snatch with something like Recover or Will-O-Wisp could be extremely annoying and hard to break.
Can anyone else think of some epic Snatch abusers?


The next thing which I thought of that I think is pretty cool is Cacturne with Spiky Shield + Sucker Punch.
Absolutely punishes pokemon for clicking a physical attack, particularly if its linked with another physical attack.
I know this is a well picked and specific example but say something like an Aegislash had Iron Head linked with Sacred Sword, and attacked this Cacturne with that link.
It would stay in shield form and take the Sucker Punch,
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 242-289 (74.6 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and then take 25% of its health from triggering Spiky Shields twice. Hence it is practically a guaranteed 1HKO (like 99% or some bullshit).
But this also works I'm sure on plenty of other physical and special attackers alike, as at the end of the day if they pick an attacking move you are still getting off a free Sucker Punch as Spiky Shield will block their attacks, regardless of whether or not they are physical.
 
procrastinat

procrastinat

Just out of curiosity, but has there been any discussion about Priority+Protect in general? Like a Talonflame with Acrobatics+Protect in a link? It would theoretically be capable of revenging anything without faster priority, or the ability to outheal it, by simply spamming Acrobatics and protecting itself in the process, or sweeping with Swords Dance while completely untouchable? Or is the drain on PP simply too much for such a strategy to be viable?

Edit: Wow, completely forgot Protect has 50% to fail on the second turn, just ignore this.
 
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Isa Simple

Isa Simple

Akumeoy

Akumeoy

Isa Simple said:
From what I've been able to spectate and from replays posted in the thread, however stall is quite a viable play style, it is not very versatile.
It seems every single stall team has Sub-Toxic Gliscor, Unaware Clefable, Amoonguss (Usually AV), KS Aegislash, a hazard setter, and a filler.
Click to expand...
And my team has since been adapted to handle all of those threats better than it did previously, save Aegislash (which is actually more of an offensive threat to my team than a defensive one).

Stall has to use particular things to blanket-check/counter a really diverse and powerful meta, meaning that offensive teams that WANT to defeat stall (and know how to, obviously) CAN defeat stall, I think. The question being how this affects their viability against offense.
 
Isa Simple

Isa Simple

I'm pretty sure that Scarfed Heatran beats all the mentioned stall mons with ease, and what still do well against more offensive play styles.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Filler

The link 1HKOs Clefable, Gliscor and Aegislash (assuming just max HP rather than max HP and SpD), as well as 2HKOing Amoonguss.
Also Earth Power kills Heatran which is a common rock setter. Other common rock setters like Skarm and Ferro are wrecked by Fire Blast.
Not really sure what the best filler option would be.
 

Chopin Alkaninoff

Actually there are many more things for Stall that I haven't used yet.

Subseed Whimsicott with Cotton Guard is another variant that can be annoying to face once Talonflame is out of the way.

There's also Sableye, which M'joe'ra have used before. Prankster Will-o-wisp before mega is annoying as always.

Breloom has Poison Heal and can utilize Subseed or Subtoxic + Protect, even though its kinda frail.

Chansey may not seem much but it can chip away Manaphy's health while you heal yourself with Seismic Toss + Softboiled.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 222-262 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chansey can do the same to many Special Attackers as long as it isn't Gengar or Keldeo. For Ghost types (except Gengar), Toxic it.

Also Quagsire, which also has Unaware. I personally think it deserves A- rank in here because it can do the same as Clefable with Curse + Recover. I've used it before and its pretty good. Quagsire also walls that Heatran set Isa Simple posted (unless you run lolHP Grass).

Mega Slowbro is personally my favorite poke for Stall, because it doesn't get 2HKO'd by Band Talonflame and it is very hard to take down.

As for the general team, at least one Unaware poke is needed (either Clefable or Quagsire). Also at least one Toxic user for the opposing Unaware poke. Also at least one member to handle Talonflame, flichspam and Faketurn (Aegislash is the best member for this). That's why Clefable/Quagsire and Aegislash is pretty much needed in every Stall team. The rest can be anything, doesn't have to be Subtoxic Gliscor or Assault Vest Amoonguss.

Edit: some more sets for Stall

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Slack Off
- Whirlwind
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake/Toxic

This thing doesn't fear set up + attack from any physical poke, as it can recover and immediately then phaze away the threat that tries to set up. All you need is lay hazards and you're all set. It can survive many powerful physical attacks, then heal and phaze, so it won't go down easily.

+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 250-295 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 314-372 (74.7 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Skarmory can do the same, though I don't really know which one is physically bulkier. Also this.

Cresselia @ Flame Orb/Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight
- Psycho Shift/Reflect
- Psychic

For anyone who thinks Mega Sableye is too frail, this can be your replacement. Reflect doubles your defense for any set up physical attackers while Flame Orb + Psycho Shift cripples your opponent. Calm Mind + Moonlight is the same as Clefable, set up and heal after you take damage. Reflect vs Psycho Shift depends on your preferance (burn damage or limited time of doubling defenses).

Stall actually isn't bad considering there are many possibilities for it. Its just set up + attack is the easiest way people can think. Thats why people think of this meta as "too offensive" when it actually isn't.
 
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M'joe'ra

M'joe'ra

After playing around for a bit I am going to nominate that ferrothorn to move from B to A- if not A rank.


Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
OR
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes/Leech Seed/Thunder Wave
- Protect/Power Whip
- Gyro Ball/Protect

This thing can be a literal pain to deal with. With linked moves doubling your chance to take barb and helm damage along with possible 1 turn setup of hazards, this thing can be exceptionally annoying to try and beat. This mon can also deal with a decent amount of the top threats as well. Talonflame takes lifetimes of recoil from barbs, helm and brave bird recoil, taking over half of it's health from all of that. If clefable is running it's most common set -Cosmic boiled with unaware- Then it cannot touch it due to both of it's attacks being resisted and taking residual damage from leech seed, hazards and stab gyro ball. To top that all off, 4 or 5 of the A+ rank mons get destroyed by this thing's recoil damage -with aegi being the only one that doesn't care as much and zard x can kill a lot easier but still takes helm and barb damage-

Tl;dr Ferro should be A- at least due to it's ability to set up hazards and deal extreme amounts of damage with rocky helmet and iron barbs combination.
 
TheBlueFiretruck

TheBlueFiretruck

M'joe'ra said:
After playing around for a bit I am going to nominate that ferrothorn to move from B to A- if not A rank.


Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
OR
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes/Leech Seed/Thunder Wave
- Protect/Power Whip
- Gyro Ball/Protect

This thing can be a literal pain to deal with. With linked moves doubling your chance to take barb and helm damage along with possible 1 turn setup of hazards, this thing can be exceptionally annoying to try and beat. This mon can also deal with a decent amount of the top threats as well. Talonflame takes lifetimes of recoil from barbs, helm and brave bird recoil, taking over half of it's health from all of that. If clefable is running it's most common set -Cosmic boiled with unaware- Then it cannot touch it due to both of it's attacks being resisted and taking residual damage from leech seed, hazards and stab gyro ball. To top that all off, 4 or 5 of the A+ rank mons get destroyed by this thing's recoil damage -with aegi being the only one that doesn't care as much and zard x can kill a lot easier but still takes helm and barb damage-

Tl;dr Ferro should be A- at least due to it's ability to set up hazards and deal extreme amounts of damage with rocky helmet and iron barbs combination.
Click to expand...
Agreeing with this, Ferro is super annoying to take down. Also I like your new sig :o
 
Isa Simple

Isa Simple

Volbeat @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Tail Wind
- Thunder Wave

Yup. Quick Pass on roids.
Every time you scrap a free turn, you pass +3 SpA to something. Or if you get a rare opportunity to get a extra free turn, you can set up Tail Wind before doing this. Also if need be you have Prankster Thunder Wave to stop a sweep.
 

Chopin Alkaninoff

M'joe'ra said:
After playing around for a bit I am going to nominate that ferrothorn to move from B to A- if not A rank.


Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
OR
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes/Leech Seed/Thunder Wave
- Protect/Power Whip
- Gyro Ball/Protect

This thing can be a literal pain to deal with. With linked moves doubling your chance to take barb and helm damage along with possible 1 turn setup of hazards, this thing can be exceptionally annoying to try and beat. This mon can also deal with a decent amount of the top threats as well. Talonflame takes lifetimes of recoil from barbs, helm and brave bird recoil, taking over half of it's health from all of that. If clefable is running it's most common set -Cosmic boiled with unaware- Then it cannot touch it due to both of it's attacks being resisted and taking residual damage from leech seed, hazards and stab gyro ball. To top that all off, 4 or 5 of the A+ rank mons get destroyed by this thing's recoil damage -with aegi being the only one that doesn't care as much and zard x can kill a lot easier but still takes helm and barb damage-

Tl;dr Ferro should be A- at least due to it's ability to set up hazards and deal extreme amounts of damage with rocky helmet and iron barbs combination.
Click to expand...
Agree with this. It punishes Jirachi and Faketurn heavily, which makes it really good.

Also I'm nominating Quagsire to A- because Unaware is just too valuable to not have and it can wall most Victini sets. It can also "revenge stall" Talonflame with Curse + Recover. It can also wall other pokes like Thundurus. Its basically the Physical version of Clefable, though Clefable has things that Quagsire don't have like Cosmic power.
 
ScorrchingTheaph

ScorrchingTheaph

nO u
M'joe'ra said:
After playing around for a bit I am going to nominate that ferrothorn to move from B to A- if not A rank.


Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
OR
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes/Leech Seed/Thunder Wave
- Protect/Power Whip
- Gyro Ball/Protect

This thing can be a literal pain to deal with. With linked moves doubling your chance to take barb and helm damage along with possible 1 turn setup of hazards, this thing can be exceptionally annoying to try and beat. This mon can also deal with a decent amount of the top threats as well. Talonflame takes lifetimes of recoil from barbs, helm and brave bird recoil, taking over half of it's health from all of that. If clefable is running it's most common set -Cosmic boiled with unaware- Then it cannot touch it due to both of it's attacks being resisted and taking residual damage from leech seed, hazards and stab gyro ball. To top that all off, 4 or 5 of the A+ rank mons get destroyed by this thing's recoil damage -with aegi being the only one that doesn't care as much and zard x can kill a lot easier but still takes helm and barb damage-

Tl;dr Ferro should be A- at least due to it's ability to set up hazards and deal extreme amounts of damage with rocky helmet and iron barbs combination.
Click to expand...
I agree with this too, ironbarb+rockyhelmet is actually a very good combo on a bulky pokemon such as ferro that can also set up leech. Physical attackers with two physical moves linked are pretty much stopped by ferro due to huge recoil (58.33%) and ferro then recovers from leech and protect. Countering a physical ferro and defensive ferro are quite different, and if you guess wrong, ferro can do a lot of work.
 
Anna says hi

Anna says hi

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2118155

Sand is pretty good if you can avoid losing momentum.

Also specs Jirachi is death incarnate for anything not behind a sub(Which I have Keldeo for, it just destroys gliscor). Getting to hit something 3 times per turn means it probably dies. Here's the Jirachi set:

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Doom Desire
- U-turn (This is just to keep momentum and not to actually hurt stuff, so you can remove the attack EVs if you run a special move as filler)
- Trick
- Filler
 
TheBlueFiretruck

TheBlueFiretruck

I almost always expect Scarf Flinch sets whenever I see Rachi at team preview, so that unexpected and powerful set is quite scary. U-turning for momentum is just so helpful in this meta in general I'm noticing.
 
Akumeoy

Akumeoy

AnybodyAgrees said:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2118155

Sand is pretty good if you can avoid losing momentum.

Also specs Jirachi is death incarnate for anything not behind a sub(Which I have Keldeo for, it just destroys gliscor). Getting to hit something 3 times per turn means it probably dies. Here's the Jirachi set:

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Doom Desire
- U-turn (This is just to keep momentum and not to actually hurt stuff, so you can remove the attack EVs if you run a special move as filler)
- Trick
- Filler
Click to expand...
Nice set. Off-STAB U-Turn off of 4 Atk isn't terribly stronger than U-Turn off of 0- Atk, so I'd personally make the most of Jirachi's solid bulk and keep a fully special set, even with U-Turn.
 

Chopin Alkaninoff

AnybodyAgrees said:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2118155

Sand is pretty good if you can avoid losing momentum.

Also specs Jirachi is death incarnate for anything not behind a sub(Which I have Keldeo for, it just destroys gliscor). Getting to hit something 3 times per turn means it probably dies. Here's the Jirachi set:

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Doom Desire
- U-turn (This is just to keep momentum and not to actually hurt stuff, so you can remove the attack EVs if you run a special move as filler)
- Trick
- Filler
Click to expand...
Pretty cool set. I like this Jirachi set more than that Iron Head + Zen Headbutt because this can guarantee you to kill at least one poke. Also if this calc is real, RIP Aegislash or ANYTHING that tries to tank a Doom Desire attack.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 216-255 (129.3 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Throbulator36

Throbulator36

AnybodyAgrees said:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pandora-linked-2118155

Sand is pretty good if you can avoid losing momentum.

Also specs Jirachi is death incarnate for anything not behind a sub(Which I have Keldeo for, it just destroys gliscor). Getting to hit something 3 times per turn means it probably dies. Here's the Jirachi set:

Jirachi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Doom Desire
- U-turn (This is just to keep momentum and not to actually hurt stuff, so you can remove the attack EVs if you run a special move as filler)
- Trick
- Filler
Click to expand...
Doom desire hits with the attack of the pokemon that is currently out so specs is unnecessary
 
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