League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??

I can't tell if jibbles is just bored of league or in such a deep state of shock that no information is actually reaching his conscious

back 2 europe for me, or LCK, I finally dgaf about NA even enough to follow this stuff anymore since if I'm going to be watching suboptimal play it might as well inspire emotion in me :( I'm not sure I can support Renegades (the only other team I'd consider supporting after C9's roster changes) and after putting up with TSM fans and the rivalry for seasons even if they got flame and aphro and made krepo and seraph their mascots or something I don't think I could stomach being one. It'd just be unilateral, the rivalry's over, not gonna be many core CLG fans left who even remember the TSM vs. CLG shit and not all of both teams are invested anymore. Made me really realise what CLG represented to me and that was that even though they did weird things with their roster somewhere I did always believe they would pull through and retain their fundamental identity strategically and in team organisations.

I still remember things like the three-team roster shuffle and like in a sense its desensitising but a thing that CLG always did and I enjoyed was drag amateur scene rejects and veterans out of their retirement homes and put them back in play, a lot of people who had their potential greatly wasted pre-CLG (Aphro and relegation king Pobelter are the main ones, Link wasted his own), there was always a fundamental 'familiarity' about them even as jiji/chauster/etc. faded into the background, and they kept aphro and link enough for them to mean something. Even Pobelter felt that way just bc he's been around so long and he's not really strongly associated with any team to me except Curse and they won together. But without that stable association with doublelift suddenly the team just looks like a revolving door of randoms. I'm not even a huge dlift fan (although I'd be just as sad if he was done with the scene) but it's hard not to feel something after four years.

I can see how dlift might've been fundamentally putting the team in orbit around him whereas that might not be a dynamic on TSM with Bjergsen but I can't see much potential in CLG's potential replacements. For them to kick dlift I feel like they must have had someone in mind (Sneaky?) but IDK.

I'm glad they won a split together.

I want to spit acid instead of saying this but I do hope doublelift and Bjergsen are successful, that is a combination I can get behind (even though I have a huge soft spot for Pobelter) and dlift's career isn't over yet, I want to see how it goes with a team that can more evenly distribute the weight for both of them and hopefully keep him in check since he won't have total seniority.
 
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In early 2012, I became a CLG fan due to discovering 3 things that got me a lot of attention: Jiji's Ryze vods (from some forum recommendation - I can't find these vods anymore though), Doublelift's Vayne 2v1 vs Cop and Crumbzz (random video), and Chauster's AMA (from some reddit thread I think?). Only then did I find out that all 3 players conveniently belonged to the same team, and becoming a fan was easy (and then the Saintvicious swap happened and I got confused, but I shrugged it off). I had to drop M5 off my top fan list however, because the players didn't speak English at the time (except Alex).

Now Chau and Jiji have both retired - admittedly not in the most pleasant ways as Chauster will always be remembered for his Sona ult miss and Jiji was basically benched twice. That left Doublelift as the last anchor, and I had hoped that out of the three he would be the one to find the most satisfying retirement so it would be easy to continue supporting the brand after his departure. However, this reveal obviously threw a wrench at that. Double is still active and playing at what seems to be his best form and he was booted off to none other than their rival team. Whatever the reason, it surely can't be from some face value. Perhaps Hotshot was tired of thinking of decisions with the thought of Doublelift rejecting them every time. Who knows?

With that said, however, TSM may as well be a brand new team, so perhaps showing support for them won't be difficult. Also, Doublelift and Locodoco are reunited. I hope that Double will be happy with this move (he sounded pretty salty about getting kicked, even though he was open to the idea before. But that was when CLG was slumping aka Seraph/Dexter era), and I hope CLG can recover from the crater they left in their fanbase and make this sendoff worth it in the long run.

This would've never happened if Kelby was still around.
 
I just hope TSM finds a good shotcaller to keep Dlift in check because the man cannot theorycraft to save his life.
 
Oh god I completely forgot that TSM fans now have to deal with rampant Doublelift hatorade they used to spew. Literally a donation on stream "I used to think you were cocky welcome to TSM."
 
I mean I'm a TSM fan, I have been since I actually started playing League, and I really disliked doublelift for no other reason than I thought he was cocky af.

This change is kinda weird, since I really liked jason, but hey w/e yo. If doubelift wants to play for TSM and regi wants it then who am i to say no? I'll still support TSM since I just like the brand
 
If CLG wins, you get the same fans that were around. If they start losing, then Hotshot shot himself in the foot. It's a simple formula. But it's probably a win/win for Regi either way. Getting the two most popular NA players on the same team jesus lol.
 
i dunno about that, i'd say that a great deal of CLG fans are there mostly because of doublelift (myself included). hotshot has done almost nothing to generate any kind of brand loyalty over the last four years or so, yet CLG has managed to maintain the second biggest fanbase in NA from being an underdog - largely due to doublelift's life, where he started, how he's never won a tournament, et cetera. the only other player on the roster that longtime fans really care about is aphromoo, and he's rumored to be retiring or joining C9.

unless hotshot can give an actual good reason as to why CLG got rid of their coach, benched pobelter, and kicked doublelift after winning their first tournament in three years, i'm basically done with supporting CLG's LoL team. very few people are going to stay with CLG out of loyalty to the team itself, since it's gone through so many iterations and has generally not been too kind to its fans
 
Jebus McAzn said:
i dunno about that, i'd say that a great deal of CLG fans are there mostly because of doublelift (myself included). hotshot has done almost nothing to generate any kind of brand loyalty over the last four years or so, yet CLG has managed to maintain the second biggest fanbase in NA from being an underdog - largely due to doublelift's life, where he started, how he's never won a tournament, et cetera. the only other player on the roster that longtime fans really care about is aphromoo, and he's rumored to be retiring or joining C9.

unless hotshot can give an actual good reason as to why CLG got rid of their coach, benched pobelter, and kicked doublelift after winning their first tournament in three years, i'm basically done with supporting CLG's LoL team. very few people are going to stay with CLG out of loyalty to the team itself, since it's gone through so many iterations and has generally not been too kind to its fans
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This is a really good summary. In fairness Reginald has held onto Dyrus for a long time (not that that's any great credit in my opinion, but TSM fans are odd), but a lot of Regi's efforts over the years, like it or not, have been to build up a strong team and generate loyalty to the TSM 'ideal'. A lot of the baylife shit went out the window post-S2 and all those people seemed to wander off to support C9 instead, but rather than give up on the identity of the team Regi continued to work hard on building up a good stream network and familiarising people with the new players, and the changes have been a lot less disruptive (WT and Bjergsen have been around for ages now). Given that they've been successful of course this builds off itself, but still.

I think a lot of modern CLG fans have essentially latched onto the old CLG fans by concentrating their love for CLG into love for Rush Hour (interestingly dlift and Aphro both have that underdog thing going on, even though doublelift definitely has The Storyline, add the perceived bromance to that and it generated a lot of love for them), because having faith in CLG and its org is not very easy and the CLG players are pretty hard to get close to, and with dlift's recent comments pretty much putting paid to that for sure (there was a lot of hope Aphro would move to TSM too lol) it's left a lot of resentment over the years of accumulated confusion, frustration, etc. CLG fans have a habit probably more than any other team of 'backseat managing' and tended to be pretty possessive but I think in part that arose from Hotshot's decisions being inaccessible and simply not yielding results. A lot of people dislike Regi but TSM fans honestly seem happy with the directions he's taken the team in.

I mean I'm not saying all players should be 24/7 on social media or streaming instead of practising, but honestly, it's the thing that sets NA apart from the other regions right now and what fans respond to, NA LoL is still very much in an entertainer phase and fresh blood is not being cultivated well at all. It's difficult to expect NA fans to think like Korean fans when the scene is so different. What I'm witnessing is a pretty mass confusion/exodus because a lot of people are realising, 'Well, I liked doublelift/[some ex-CLG player] more than I ended up liking CLG'. Because doublelift was the underdog, CLG became the underdog, being tied so closely to doublelift's successes and losses, and while they had doublelift they were still a coherent assembly of players you could root for. Especially since CLG isn't the same old CLG strategically anymore that made them so fun to watch tbh.

Feel really awkward for WT, this must be quite odd for TSM fans. But I'll give them that they've been pretty sportsmanlike (well, maybe because they're also very gleeful tbh) about eating their words about doublelift. And honestly stuff like 'doublelift is cocky' has a grain of truth to it, he's also humble and hard-working, but, yes, he presents himself with a lot of bravado and plays in a reckless manner sometimes, it can be offputting when it's not accompanied by success. It's the exact same thing a lot of people love about doublelift, to deny that it's true because it's being presented as a criticism would be odd. But a lot of shit TSM fans have said about doublelift, that he's ruining CLG, that he's donezo as an ADC, etc., suddenly look really dumb in hindsight. If doublelift does well I'd like to see the credit goes to where it belongs though. I don't think people will be embracing of WT sadly and this must have been very abrupt for him. This really is three-player-swap over again.

If CLG keeps winning I think some people who can't stand TSM might support the organisation anyway because CLG will more than ever have its underdog identity (simply because they'll be the team that's winning vs. all-stars) and there'll be WT probably (even though CLG fans don't think WT is good either!), Zion still I suppose. But how many people love CLG because of Hotshot anymore more than they loved doublelift, or because they feel there's a coherent identity about the team? It feels more like that it's fuckin TSM that is holding people back more than that it's a new team for doublelift, if doublelift had gone to another team we'd be seeing a lot less reluctance from some quarters.

In NA LoL people tend to support players way more than the organisation, the only team I've ever felt where that wasn't true was TSM (which is one of the thing I always disliked about TSM fans). I don't count C9 because they were the same roster for so long and they're still mostly the same team, they have essentially subsumed a lot of TSM's old cultural ways too. There's also a big schism here between the org and doublelift because honestly of the shit dlift has been saying on stream and the framing of it as a clear backstabbing, which has made it really emotive (that TSM video was really, really well-done, it made me really sad to watch honestly). It certainly sounds that way but the way Hotshot has been acting on his Twitter sounds like he might have a donezo pt. II coming up. I'm just not sure what it would take to make doubtful fans think 'doublelift was really at fault here'. To clarify I don't think he likely is although I think there may have been some issues between the two about team management, Hotshot has his own history in this regard too.

It's just that this being framed as a continuation of doublelift's story solidifies the player loyalty and makes it a personal thing rather than a player/org thing, which at the end of the day is a precision strike to CLG fans who have put a lot of spirit and energy into trusting the team despite the wild ride. CLG fans ourselves perceive us to be insanely loyal; in a way I think some people feel this is a backstab to us as well, from HSGG and not dlift (which is VERY important to establish, would that jersey thing have been let slide half as much as it has if people didn't think dlift had been hard done by?) whether they could logically explain that or not.

It's also worth noting that with the return of Alex Ich and the introduction of teams like Renegades, we might see some of the older fans who really can't stomach TSM start supporting or double-supporting them, they have pretty much the same emotional thing going on honestly but with visa issues instead of roster swaps. CLG has old brand prestige but so did Dignitas.

(bring back nhat nguyen)
 
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Doublelift was/is a damn good carry (mostly Vayne) player (unsure about his choice of Lucario Vayne skin mind you) so I've never really thought of his cockiness as a bad thing. Spectacular throws aside he's normally been able to back up what he says.

He's like the Arteezy of League, especially since neither of these guys can win a world championship.
 
OK so I've had some time to figure out what the hell I think about this, and tbh my feelings are mixed.

(for those who don't know, I've been a TSM fan since early Season 2, so I've got some historical context regarding this team)

On the one hand, Doublelift's obviously had an incredibly career and is still playing at a very high level. All the roster changes on TSM are a chance for a fresh start, and he and Bjerg are basically going to be able to pick and choose their teammates and assemble a team that fits their style from the ground up.

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure Bjerg and Dlift will mesh perfectly on the same team, since they're both generally the recipients of the majority of their teams' resources; one of them's going to have to take a backseat. Given the nature of the preseason changes we've heard about thus far, it seems like ADCs are going to be crazy strong for at least the initial portion of Season 6, which combined with Bjerg's shotcalling role probably means that Dlift's going to be the primary carry - which I'm honestly not a fan of. I've always been of the opinion that TSM needs to find another shotcaller and just let Bjergsen carry, and this hasn't changed. I think he has a lot more upside than Doublelift at this stage in their careers.

Then there's the issue of Turtle. Remember S3 when he was absolutely balling? I think that player's still in there somewhere - I just think he needs to find the right support who can match his aggression and maximize his potential. I was excited when I heard that TSM was looking for a new support, because I thought it signaled a possible return to form for WT. Instead he'll probably be in the market for a new team, and if he finds one he can thrive on this could come back to bite TSM in the ass.

Not sure how their personalities will mesh either. Bjerg's always struck me as a bit cocky and immature, and everyone knows about Double's bravado (although apparently he's more humble off-camera; CLG fans confirm/deny pls). The last thing this team needs is more volatile personalities, especially with Regi and Loco still running the show.

In conclusion: I hope this works. I really do. Doublelift's an incredibly talented player and with the right supporting cast this team could do great things. I just can't help but see all the what-ifs.
 
I actually disagree, I think it's more important than ever they have a really good ADC now and someone to shift the burden off Bjergsen. The question is, how will Bjergsen deal with the changes to the meta? It may actually be important that the ADC is prioritised for resources in the new meta (or vice versa) and one of them needs to learn to adapt to that and not the 'I need to be the carry always'. Likewise, doublelift needs to adapt to a team that won't always solely protect him; protect the dlift has had its ups and downs over the years as a CLG strat, but it's nearly always been their signature fallback when they need consistency. Honestly the team had Dyrus for years as fodder just like nearly every top laner CLG has had since hotshot's play declined; I'm sure the change won't be too dramatic for doublelift except having to share peel (and Bjergsen is more used to being self-sufficient by very virtue of the sheer control mages exert over the game). Top lane changing to a more objective-based place is really a good place for Dyrus to exit lmao.

I'm more concerned about that rumoured deleted tweet of Regi's, that they won't have a roster together before IEM; they need time to practise together and get used to the new power dynamics. It sounds like dlift and Bjergsen have talked a bit over what they want and are on the same page, but they need to be able to translate that to play.

The tweet also mentioned signing ideal people, so I think if Regi is smart he'll be looking for someone who can shotcall to replace Santorin/Dyrus/Lustboy, even if he has to import (since dlift and Bjergsen aren't imports now). With Dyrus and Santorin retiring and Lustboy being up in the air Regi has a lot of freedom to overhaul the roster, but it's also going to be very unfamiliar and new. They're going to need time to adjust to each other and for Bjergsen and doublelift to work out resources, season changes, communication, seniority and so on. I imagine doublelift won't intend to try to pull any type of 'rank' over Bjergsen, because Bjergsen has seniority in TSM, but doublelift is also used to complete seniority by now and old habits die hard. (Bjergsen is also younger and doublelift has already '''done his time''' as team baby, at least how some might perceive it, remember he started as a CLG sub, then played support for Westrice(?) on the old Epik, and only got to start as AD for Curse of all the teams before CLG wanted him back, which is I think a sad element of this Tale that is going overlooked.) I do however feel that getting a good shotcaller would make it easier on both of them to work together, as long as doublelift can pull his head in and listen (uncoachable etc. LOL), because a) decisions less in their hands b) neither of them like shotcalling c) both of them want to focus on their game and not the macro element.

I think loco is likely to take a backseat, although loco and dlift reuniting is so funny I almost want to cry, oh wait I want to anyway tbh. More interested in how doublelift will work with Reginald; I've always inferred that he has strong opinions about how the team should be formed (and since the team is essentially being rebuilt around Bjergsen and himself...) and has clashed with the similarly fiery Hotshot over it before. Can't see Regi wanting to let doublelift go but he seems to be a little headstrong in how he manages and how his players should behave.

But if TSM crash and burn... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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iirc Doublelift played support for Dyrus in Epik. Regardless, the meta wasn't set in stone at that time so players kindof played whatever.

Regarding Resources:
Not something I'd worry about yet till TSM announces the rest of their squad. I believe it's possible to manage 2 resource-gobbling carries in most team styles. 3 is difficult and 4 would be a tall order. If TSM Rush were to happen we may see a problem if Rush+Bjerg doesn't steamroll. A theoretical squad of Zion/Rush/Bjerg/Double/Adrian looks scary on paper but it's so snowball reliant due to the number of carry-only players. In any case, Doublelift is more than willing to play support-styled Ad carries so he won't be super farm dependent to remain useful in the game.

Regarding WildTurtle:
I'm going to feel bad for Turtle because the CLG fanbase will absolutely tear him up (understandable, though). Regardless, Turtle may just need a fresh start after Regi's attempts to bench him. Hopefully Aphro and Turtle can be a perfect match and Turtle can return to the form he used to have. I expect Turtle to get along with the rest of the team really well. That is, unless there's something about Turtle we've not known before.

Regarding Doublelift's Hardheadedness:
I think Double and Regi will get along fine actually. From his interviews, Doublelift highly respects people who actually show their authority. This was the case with Chauster and Coach Chris, and Doublelift has said many positive things about their ability to take command. Now Regi is just that - he'll not mess around, and the new coach, whoever he will be, should help immensely with that. Hotshot, on the other hand, seemed to have a lot of problems exerting his authority with Doublelift around (as a matter of fact Hotshot himself was benched from the team by Doublelift+Chauster - he heavily implied this before). Remember that Doublelift's claim to fame was due to being completely controlled by Chauster, and once Chauster switched to jungle he never had the same freedom to simply point and click while his support takes care of the commanding. Before Chris, Doublelift had always felt that he was obligated to take charge in CLG because no one else will, but obviously that oversteps his bounds as a player and causes a lot of tension (hope this answers what Doublelift is like off camera). Hopefully he'll be able to fully focus on the game and not be forced to tell anyone else on their team they screwed up. He'll likely never feel the same way as he did with Chauster, but whatever keeps him focused on his own performance rather than the other players's should help immensely.
 
Those are really good points, particularly about Chauster and Hotshot, and I forgot entirely that it was dlift and Chauster who benched hsgg in the first place. I was more remarking on the attitude of people like Monte who claimed CLG were essentially uncoachable, but I lack the internals on that and don't remember if he even singled out anyone. I think if the team management lives up to dlift's standards he may be happy to have executive decisions removed from his hands, which is also the point I made about how finding Bjergsen a good shotcaller is good for dlift as well.

Honestly the ideal I see for a team with those two is three solid very heavily supportive players who can manage to defend on low resources, shotcall, ward well, and enable the two carries to make picks (on players or towers) or take objectives. They need reliability with objectives and decisonmaking to concentrate best, I think we've seen this plenty with both players. Both players have skill sets which benefit almost idiosyncratically from focused team support, the presence of tanks, and deep vision control. This is also why I think Regi waiting past IEM to build up synergy and implicit trust among 3/5 the team with the other 2/5 is a huge waste. doublelift goes on fire when he knows he can trust his team to back him up when he goes in aggressively.

doublelift is also quite fine with (arguably too fine with) focusing on taking towers and solo pushing etc. Many of my most memorable dlift moments aren't even his aggressive pvp plays but instead map movements, good and bad. A strength of CLG's is that they recognised the true importance of objective-based gameplay before other NA teams, which I generally attribute to their time in Korea and to Chauster; as a result dlift has had that mentality for ages. I see no reason why, if he does not need to be prioritised in Season 6, he cannot continue doing his thing, but with better supervision. He adapts well to the various ADs and the AD changes will likely have implications for team style.
 
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I for one welcome our Doublelift overlord in TSM.

Also still made Gold V the dream. But my God ranked is horrid post-Worlds. 0/10 Yasuo on the enemy team was the real MVP.
 
Bjergsen used to be fine when he was on Copenhagen Wolves/NiP then he joined TSM and now I just can't fathom why any woman would want to sleep with him because he would alter the salinity of her vagina.

Dude just turned into a pretty unattractive salty hipster spouting some tired TSM memes and random vitriol.

So I just can't follow Doublelift to TSM because that team turns people into huge douchebags with little to no mental input of their own, just toss out some salty lines about CLG meanwhile TSM continues to be totally irrelevant at Worlds.

Truly upsetting. I gotta find a new region cause NA is just unsupportable. They are never competitive at Worlds and the nicer teams are managed stupidly or let ELO-boosting nonsense go on blah blah and then you have TSM and C9 who are just filled with meme-spouting dickheads with terribly-punchable faces who should probably never be allowed to breed.

C9 members seem like the kinds of dudes to compare the smegma growths on their dicks.
 
Yeti said:
Bjergsen used to be fine when he was on Copenhagen Wolves/NiP then he joined TSM and now I just can't fathom why any woman would want to sleep with him because he would alter the salinity of her vagina.

Dude just turned into a pretty unattractive salty hipster spouting some tired TSM memes and random vitriol.

So I just can't follow Doublelift to TSM because that team turns people into huge douchebags with little to no mental input of their own, just toss out some salty lines about CLG meanwhile TSM continues to be totally irrelevant at Worlds.

Truly upsetting. I gotta find a new region cause NA is just unsupportable. They are never competitive at Worlds and the nicer teams are managed stupidly or let ELO-boosting nonsense go on blah blah and then you have TSM and C9 who are just filled with meme-spouting dickheads with terribly-punchable faces who should probably never be allowed to breed.

C9 members seem like the kinds of dudes to compare the smegma growths on their dicks.
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Well both TSM and CLG (mostly Doublelift) have been insufferable for a while now. At least this way both of them are in one place, which means that maybe new CLG will be likable.

C9 is just the home of the trolls; they are entertaining to watch and certainly aren't insufferable brats like their TSM or CLG counterparts, but also never graduated high school in terms of maturity.

Personally I think that Renegades is the most likable bunch in next year's NA LCS. I've always liked Alex Ich and Crumbzz (even if the latter is not particularly good), and RF has been an underrated player/good streamer for a long time. Also maplestreet isn't on the roster anymore which is another big plus.

So on the whole I think that these changes will make NA more likable rather than less.
 
I have to say worlds really bored me. The fact that bans were restricted to the same 3 to 5 champs + usually or 2 real bans meant there really wasnt any competitive aspect to the ban phase in teambuilding compared to actually getting to ban 3 champs that threaten your comp. No idea what riot was thinking when they remade garen darius morde fiora and gp, and even a few patches after worlds, soloq still has to deal with this shit. it felt like whoever was able to get their hands on darius won in teambuilder, doesnt make sense how a shitty team like c9 can get a pentakill in worlds

also everyone knew skt would win

Arcticblast said:
Is it just me or is Tahm Kench kind of borked
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just the fact that his shield has no limit and can be as big as his health bar. but this only works against burst and burst is cancerous as fuck in this game.

everything else about tahm is balanced
 
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