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Separate Tiering of Mega Pokemon
- Thread starter Antar
- Start date
Can we please do this before SPL, like Spirit said pretty much all lower tier players want the drops and I really can't see any downside about it!
Also please don't make them slowly drop every 3 months, you could easily have a chat with all the Tier Leaders to decide where each Pokemon can end up without them breaking the metagame too much, like for exemple: Camerupt NU, Lopunny PU, Metagross UU, Charizard NU, etc. And if they do end up being too much and we make this happen on December, Tier Leaders would have a good month to figure things out and quickban if necessary!
Doing it in the middle of SPL would mess things up and might put too much stress on players since they would need to re-learn the tier they are playing and build good teams in the span of a few days, so it would be better to do it this month or early december. Or in Pokemon Z I suppose, but that would be boring :(
e: and yea even if its just Pokemon prior to ORAS going back that would be really cool too :)
Also please don't make them slowly drop every 3 months, you could easily have a chat with all the Tier Leaders to decide where each Pokemon can end up without them breaking the metagame too much, like for exemple: Camerupt NU, Lopunny PU, Metagross UU, Charizard NU, etc. And if they do end up being too much and we make this happen on December, Tier Leaders would have a good month to figure things out and quickban if necessary!
Doing it in the middle of SPL would mess things up and might put too much stress on players since they would need to re-learn the tier they are playing and build good teams in the span of a few days, so it would be better to do it this month or early december. Or in Pokemon Z I suppose, but that would be boring :(
e: and yea even if its just Pokemon prior to ORAS going back that would be really cool too :)
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For the mons that got megas in ORAS can't we just immediately drop them to the tier they were before ORAS (not right now obviously but when we start the whole policy)? Even if we don't go through with soulgazer's idea (which I support for the record) there's no problem with at least doing that.
There's a relevant quote in this thread I'd like to bring up
Neither side is right or wrong. This is a matter of preference and we are currently following a policy the majority agreed upon at the beginning of the gen.
Right now the majority wants a different policy, and if we follow the logic in that quote, we should do something about it. Unless someone actually believes the preferences of people who had limited Gen 6 experience (specially in lower tiers) and no ORAS experience > the preferences of current tier leaders.
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The answers given to concerns in the op are summarized here
There were definitely more than two post disagreeing, but a clear majority was siding with those points.
And the TLs vote was:
atomicllamas (RU): tier separately
Aldaron (OU): tier separately
Sam (UU): do nothing
Raseri (NU): tier separately
Arcticblast (DOU): do nothing
hollywood (NU): tier separately
Sweep (Ubers): tier separately
AM (OU): tier separately
galbia (PU): tier separately
M Dragon (OU): tier together
Molk (RU): tier separately
Magnemite (PU): tier separately
Mizuhime (DOU): abstain
Fireburn (Ubers): abstain
Hikari (UU): tier separately
We can still expand on those points, to make sure everything is covered and that the average player can easily understand the new system. But other than that, I don't think there's anything else to discuss, everything else has been said already and most tier leaders agreed with tiering megas separately after reading the thread.
What else needs to be done?
Neither side is right or wrong. This is a matter of preference and we are currently following a policy the majority agreed upon at the beginning of the gen.
Right now the majority wants a different policy, and if we follow the logic in that quote, we should do something about it. Unless someone actually believes the preferences of people who had limited Gen 6 experience (specially in lower tiers) and no ORAS experience > the preferences of current tier leaders.
====
The answers given to concerns in the op are summarized here
There were definitely more than two post disagreeing, but a clear majority was siding with those points.
And the TLs vote was:
atomicllamas (RU): tier separately
Aldaron (OU): tier separately
Sam (UU): do nothing
Raseri (NU): tier separately
Arcticblast (DOU): do nothing
hollywood (NU): tier separately
Sweep (Ubers): tier separately
AM (OU): tier separately
galbia (PU): tier separately
M Dragon (OU): tier together
Molk (RU): tier separately
Magnemite (PU): tier separately
Mizuhime (DOU): abstain
Fireburn (Ubers): abstain
Hikari (UU): tier separately
We can still expand on those points, to make sure everything is covered and that the average player can easily understand the new system. But other than that, I don't think there's anything else to discuss, everything else has been said already and most tier leaders agreed with tiering megas separately after reading the thread.
What else needs to be done?
Also magnemite and galbia voted tier separately, there vote counts now too. Iirc the majority of people voted next game or "I don't care".
My concerns are mostly summed in in these two posts that I don't think were fully addressed.
On paper, not allowing a mega to fall beneath its base form may "make sense" but in reality it creates a pretty huge contradiction. It allows the base form to restrict the tiering of the mega based on its own tiering, which shouldn't be happening to any Pokemon that are tiered "separately". My post also has concerns about whether or not megas really are separate from their base form.
I know the separate tiering of megas is something that may seem appealing but it's not something that should just be pushed through either. What are legitimate arguments for this new tiering besides "we want it to happen because we think these pokemon should be in lower tiers"?
On paper, not allowing a mega to fall beneath its base form may "make sense" but in reality it creates a pretty huge contradiction. It allows the base form to restrict the tiering of the mega based on its own tiering, which shouldn't be happening to any Pokemon that are tiered "separately". My post also has concerns about whether or not megas really are separate from their base form.
I know the separate tiering of megas is something that may seem appealing but it's not something that should just be pushed through either. What are legitimate arguments for this new tiering besides "we want it to happen because we think these pokemon should be in lower tiers"?
There already is a "pretty huge contradiction" with the way we tier them now. If the current system doesn't consider megas and their base forme separates, why is it that we just ban the mega and not the base? Tiering megas the way we do now also unnecessarily interferes with lower tiers (during the recent tier shift, this is the second time Medicham bounced out of RU and into OU solely because of its mega, for instance). This argument was already brought up the first page. I don't know if you're currently defending the status quo because you think it's perfectly fine or you're just opposed to megas being tiered separately, but the important thing to understand is: neither system is less flawed than the other, but the "new one" actually comes with benefits by diversifying the pool of 'mons for lower tiers, hence why I think it's better in contrast to a an equally flawed system that's more disruptive. I don't disagree that Latios's Mega Stone being technically UU by usage but its base remaining OU making it impossible to use Mega Latios in UU looks kinda off, but at the same time, implying that we already tier megas and their base together when that clearly isn't the case as evidenced by Kangaskhanite and Gengarite being in Ubers while their base formes being NU and OU, respectively isn't necessarily right either. I don't find either systems to be perfect, but at least one of them has the potential to be hugely beneficial for many lower tiers, which is why I strongly support tiering megas separately.
What you've described is a flaw in the system but not really a contradiction. Banning items is something that has been done plenty of times before and it doesn't contradict anything. You are right in that it's shitty in the way it affects the lower tiers, but it's the way the system is set up. I don't disagree with changing anything either and I would not be opposed to separate tiering if or when a good way to do it comes up - I just think they way we want to proceed with it right now is very flawed and people are ignoring that fact.
There's still the issue of being able to completely separate the mega from the base form. Even for cases where a Pokemon will always mega such as Beedrill, Mega Beedrill always runs protect because of the fact that the base form has such low speed. I previously listed other cases where the Mega actually uses the base form for typing, ability, states, etc. I know that the new system would increase the pool of mons for lower tiers and I would very much like that, but it's important to also stay true to the tiering. Can we actually say Mega Stone = new pokemon? I think people are very quick to proceed with this for the benefits but the 'new' system is not as logical as the current one because we are making a HUGE jump in assumptions that to me are questionable at best.
Which is why I ask - what is the purpose of this change besides "doing it for the sake of it"? If it was something absolutely vital for the stability of our tiers then perhaps we could give a little more leeway in these assumptions. As it stands, there's no real compelling reason besides to add a few mons to lower tiers which could be potentially beneficial (though could also be damaging). It's not worth making huge, questionable assumptions just for that.
It is a contradiction. The current system's intent, for a lack of better word, is to tier megas and their base formes together, yet when a mega stone is banned, the base forme remains and gradually falls to whichever lower tier. Take Kangaskhanite as an example, if we consider Kangaskhan and its mega to be tiered together, then why is it that the Mega is only usable in Ubers, yet the base form is allowed to roam in NU? I'm really not sure how to articulate this anymore clearly.
That's not the the point: the point is how we view the mega stone in relation to the base Pokemon. If you don't have an issue with banning a Mega Stone and not banning the base forme with it, then it doesn't really make any sense to me why you oppose allowing say Absolite in UU and regular Absol in RU when it's really no different then Absolite being BL and Absol being RU.
That just comes down to a matter of opinion; as such, I don't really know how to respond to this point objectively and I don't think there is a way to do so. I feel like the point of "can you really consider a base and a mega separate" would just go on in circles because I don't think any one opinion is more "right" than the other. What I do think is worth debating though is how the current tiering methods affect the lower tiers and choosing the one that's least harmful/more beneficial.
I already explained why in my previous post, but perhaps it was too vague so let me make it more clear. Tiering megas separately makes the current tiering system less intrusive on lower tiers and significantly increases the pool of viable Pokemon in said tiers, whereas the other system, the current one, does not and is occasionally disruptive. That seems like a good reason to change it, but I digress.
No, the current system views a Mega as the base form + the Mega stone. The system allows for us to remove the Mega by removing the Mega stone. That's not a contradiction at all.
I guess a better way to frame it from my point of view is:
The new system will change Mega to just the Mega Stone instead of Mega Stone + base form. This is an incredibly radical change that is, in my opinion, a gross oversimplification that bases itself in assumptions that are questionable (how questionable it is is up for debate, but you cannot deny that it is to at least some degree questionable). The better system is the one that doesn't have such assumptions.
There are a myriad of ways to modify tiering such as changing the cutoff numbers, allowing us to drop what we think "should" drop, etc. That doesn't mean we have to go through with them.
I guess a better way to frame it from my point of view is:
The new system will change Mega to just the Mega Stone instead of Mega Stone + base form. This is an incredibly radical change that is, in my opinion, a gross oversimplification that bases itself in assumptions that are questionable (how questionable it is is up for debate, but you cannot deny that it is to at least some degree questionable). The better system is the one that doesn't have such assumptions.
There are a myriad of ways to modify tiering such as changing the cutoff numbers, allowing us to drop what we think "should" drop, etc. That doesn't mean we have to go through with them.
Hi.
Mega Evolving is almost exactly the same as clicking Relic Song on Meloetta-A to change its forme. Do we tier Meloetta-P differently? No, because it's impossible to have Meloetta-P without having the specific move. Similarly, it is impossible to have a Mega Pokemon on its own without the base Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. The difference lies in that Meloetta does not retain its forme when it switches out, while the Mega Pokemon does; however, the fact remains that you cannot have either Meloetta-P (which is not tiered separately to Meloetta-A) or a Mega Pokemon without a specific condition that can only be activated in battle after the base Pokemon is switched in. To this end they should not be tiered separately.
Mega Evolving is almost exactly the same as clicking Relic Song on Meloetta-A to change its forme. Do we tier Meloetta-P differently? No, because it's impossible to have Meloetta-P without having the specific move. Similarly, it is impossible to have a Mega Pokemon on its own without the base Pokemon holding a Mega Stone. The difference lies in that Meloetta does not retain its forme when it switches out, while the Mega Pokemon does; however, the fact remains that you cannot have either Meloetta-P (which is not tiered separately to Meloetta-A) or a Mega Pokemon without a specific condition that can only be activated in battle after the base Pokemon is switched in. To this end they should not be tiered separately.
Because this logic doesn't work in the reverse, ie when the base Pokemon is used more with other items than the mega stone. So there is zero possibility of there being an option of Absol in UU and Absolite in RU. The option is there to just do that, but it's a nonsensical one.
Our current model tiers Pokemon/items/abilities/moves based in absolutes, for argument's sake let's say: Absolite is BL because it was determined that megaevolving Absol into Mega Absol was too much for UU, but base-forme Absol was determined to not be broken and therefore was not banned along with item.
Changing to the new proposed model does not tier Pokemon based in absolutes, instead based on intent to usage as per Antar's OP, and on an indefensible argument of the inability to tier the mega stones below the base forme.
Our current model is the more logical one since, as Aurora just pointed out, you cannot have the mega without the base, therefore, the base is the one that should be tiered as it falls in line with exactly how our usage-based model is set up. There is no contradiction if you view the Mega Stones as items; powerful items that affect some Pokemon extremely drastically, but simply items nonetheless. If you do that, then our current model works exactly as it always has, ie tiering Pokemon based on usage and banning items when they are proven to be broken.
Finally, and unrelated to Spirit's post above, is that there is no way that I can allow Pokemon to be dropped into random tiers based on "educated guesses." That throws our entire system of objective tiering out the window just to appease those people with no patience. We have the quick drop system available, just use that.
EDIT: and also, I have to laugh at the "our tiers can change drastically based on the whims of upper tier usage" when A, there is no escape from that even without this change and B, this can happen at any time due to the whims of GameFreak as it happened in BW. Sableye suddenly getting Prankster and Alakazam Magic Guard threw every lower tier into flux, and other HA releases did as well.
Our system is most effective based on an objective usage-based criteria as DJD and X-Act created and proved years ago. Unless we move away from that, the upper tiers are always going to "intrude" upon the lower tiers in some manner based on the metagame trends that happen in the upper tiers along with new items/Pokemon/abilities/mechanics that happen mid-generation due to GameFreak and other events.
So that last argument really just boils down to: tough shit, deal with it.
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Except Meloetta doesn't get an extra 100 base stats, nor does it get a new ability, nor does it remain in its new forme when it switches out. Also you can click moves with mega pokemon and not mega evolve, but you cant click relic song and not change forme.
Also as a side note, if Meloetta-P was good enough to be considered broken, but meloetta-a was not, the move relic song would be banned meaning that they would be tiered seperately too.
EDIT for Oglemi, banning relic song would mean Meloetta-P could only be used in UU, while Meloetta-A could be used in RU. While technically not tiering separately, I'd consider it to be functionally the same as tiering separately.
No, Relic Song would be banned. End of story.
I vote "do nothing" by the way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I agree with Sam and Oglemi's points raised in the thread, particulary this one [*]. I think the system should stay as rigid as possible, like it is right now.
[*] The new system will change Mega to just the Mega Stone instead of Mega Stone + base form. This is an incredibly radical change that is, in my opinion, a gross oversimplification that bases itself in assumptions that are questionable (how questionable it is is up for debate, but you cannot deny that it is to at least some degree questionable). The better system is the one that doesn't have such assumptions.
I agree with Sam and Oglemi's points raised in the thread, particulary this one [*]. I think the system should stay as rigid as possible, like it is right now.
[*] The new system will change Mega to just the Mega Stone instead of Mega Stone + base form. This is an incredibly radical change that is, in my opinion, a gross oversimplification that bases itself in assumptions that are questionable (how questionable it is is up for debate, but you cannot deny that it is to at least some degree questionable). The better system is the one that doesn't have such assumptions.
what I don't understand is where we draw the line. "if Meloetta-P was good enough to be considered broken, but meloetta-a was not, the move relic song would be banned" is probably true (hard to say because no precedent and melo-p is so obviously not broken [e: ok now it's not hard to say, ty oglemi]). meanwhile, Protean was what made Greninja broken without a doubt, and we chose to ban Greninja. how are these different? one is a move that makes a Pokemon broken, one is an ability, and now we're discussing Mega Stones making Pokemon broken. we're inconsistent, and I don't get why.
Functionally sure, if you want to view it that way.
But logically you're banning a move that is broken on all the Pokemon that receive it, in this case Meloetta, which falls in line with our current tiering model, rather than saying Meloetta and Meloetta-P are tiered separately based on usage, which is not the case. If Relic Song were available to more Pokemon, but it only caused Meloetta to change forme, which caused it to be broken, than our current tiering model would dictate that Meloetta should be banned as Relic Song is only broken on it rather than every Pokemon that receives it.
Protean was only broken on Greninja, so instead of banning Protean, or Protean + Greninja, we banned Greninja which was the most simple* and logical* ban, based on our current tiering model.
*How we ban cases like that and Blaziken is significantly different from the discussion of how to handle the mega stones based on our usage based tiering model, at least at this juncture. Another thread for why we choose to ban the sole cause (ie Blaziken instead of Speed Boost + Blaziken, or Protean + Greninja) is probably worth another thread.
Which incidentally would probably help steer the discussion in how to determine the current thread on Gothitelle and Shadow Tag.
the same could be said of BW2 NU Jynx, which would not have been broken without Lovely Kiss despite being the only Pokemon to get the move (Smeargle notwithstanding). I understand that Lovely Kiss has many other moves comparable to it unlike Relic Song, but at the end of the day Lovely Kiss was broken in NU on all recipients of the move and Relic Song in this hypothetical would be broken on all Pokemon that get it in Hypothetical-Tier-X. I'm not trying to nag the point because I realize it's mostly semantics and we can definitely move it to a new thread, but consistency in tiering is important.
Again, our current logic of banning what's most simple and logical determined that banning Mawilite was what was the most simple and logical, rather than banning Mawile or Mawile + Mawilite, and that banning Blaziken was the most simple and logical as opposed to Blaziken + Speed Boost or just Speed Boost. Banning Mawilite had almost no repercussions outside of Mawile now being unable to use it to mega evolve, meaning it was most logical and simple to just ban Mawilite, whereas banning Speed Boost would have made it unavailable to Sharpedo/Yanmega/whatever else, meaning it was most logical and simple to just ban Blaziken.
I mean, banning Jynx still fell in line with the logic of banning what's most simple and logical, as you banned Jynx as opposed to Jynx + Lovely Kiss or just Lovely Kiss. However, if you wanted to ban Lovely Kiss it would be on the onus of those that want to ban it to prove that it's broken/uncompetitive/whatever on all the Pokemon that received it in the tier.
So if it was the case that Jynx was the only Pokemon with Lovely Kiss, and the only Pokemon that was broken with it, then Lovely Kiss could have been banned following the same logic of banning what's most simple and logical, assuming Lovely Kiss was the element that caused Jynx to be broken. It wouldn't have been a wrong choice in this instance.
OK but in the case of Pinsir it becomes more complicated as it (pinsirite) was banned by UU, meaning the Pinsir which went up to OU this last tier shift was completely different to the Pinsir which was allowed in NU and in no means broken, causing the fate of an NU pokemon to be dictated by the whims of the UU community/council and messing up the current tiering system as a result. Now the repercussions are that a pokemon in NU jolts up and down between ou and nu frequently despite the sets being completely different.
No, Pinsir got enough usage in OU to be moved into OU from NU, which can happen to any Pokemon at any time (hello Alakazam gaining Magic Guard from BW). Pinsirite is still BL (or if you want it put completely logically, it's not BL but banned from being used in UU), regardless of Pinsir's presence in the tier or not, since Mega Pinsir was determined to be broken in UU.
The problem that you see is only a problem if you think that our current usage-based tiering system means that the metagame trends in upper tiers shouldn't affect the metagame trends of lower tiers.
Which, boy do I have some bad news for you buddy.
No that's not what I mean, I'd be more comfortable with Pinsir itself being in BL as opposed to NU if we maintain the current policy, as that does indeed make it simpler, but if simplicity is your aim then tiering the megas and non-megas separately would be better for your goal, in my personal opinion at least. I'm just annoyed by the current inconsistency.
Alakazam didn't drop down to NU and back up to OU depending on the ability it had, and that's essentially what is happening to pinsir. I know it didn't get low enough usage to drop into UU, because it was really good, but if it did drop into UU they wouldn't have banned magic guard, they would have banned Alakazam.
Alakazam didn't drop down to NU and back up to OU depending on the ability it had, and that's essentially what is happening to pinsir. I know it didn't get low enough usage to drop into UU, because it was really good, but if it did drop into UU they wouldn't have banned magic guard, they would have banned Alakazam.