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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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Yeah but assuming that she uses fighting, wouldn"t Keldeo handled them? :P. And if she uses fire, Heatran can Earth Power Chandelure while Char Y can Fire Blast Mandi
There is a difference: balloon heatran helps a lot again eq in general, which heatran is 4x weak, also it adds other immunity to monosteel (although temporary); Frost breath adds nothing to froslass, icy wind is better for utility dbond, and if you are running specs froslass, like seriously there are better mons on ice for a choice specs.1 True Lycan said:
Changin sets to deal with problematic mons to your team is a normal thing in monotype, and even encouraged, but the issue here is when more than 2 teams need niche sets to beat a single mon.
Well tbh Steel needs leftovers heatran to deal with the likes of Zapdos, I usually hate using balloon. Also, by your reasoning, frost breath froslass is still good because it can do half to any pokemon despite calm minds (even clefable etc.) so I guess it does add something to froslass. Also froslass' speed means it is an effective specs user whereas pokemon like Lapras are too slow to abuse it. Only other notable special attackers are Cryogonal or Kyurem but kyurem needs choice scarf. Froslass also learns trick which is a great option.
"the issue here is when more than 2 teams need niche sets to beat a single mon".
Rock is forced to use fire punch rhyperior for scizor, poison is forced to use weezing or tentacruel, ice is forced to use hp fire lapras, etc. By your reasoning we should ban scizor too. Niche sets are staples in monotype, without niche sets this metagame would not be anywhere near as diverse or enjoyable.
Read my entire post pls:1 True Lycan said:
"Changin sets to deal with problematic mons to your team is a normal thing in monotype, and even encouraged, but the issue here is when more than 2 teams need niche sets to beat a single mon."
Rock needs something to beat scizor because it is weak to it, same thing for ice, weezing deal with most physical attackers. In mega sableye case, it give problems to most teams even if it isn't supereffective again most of them.
I can compare it a bit to mega slowbro or volcarona in the fact they all are bulky setup sweepers with reliable recovery which give problems to many teams (but again megabro is banned and rocks for volcarona)
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What about hoopa-u? hoopa-u is dark clean up sweeper. Also is a much greater threat than mega sableye. The fact that hoopa-u can run assvest,lifeorb,scarf and can still be a huge ass threat. mega sableye though is not much a problem. The fact that a poke walls yours is a problem, then ban every single tanks. Skarmory,zapados,slowbro,mandibuzz,etc. They are meant to take a hit for the team, the calm mind set is cancerous, but it easily countered. each type has a counter for it. Learn to adjust to the meta, hoopa-u screws up my ghost team, but I still adjust like any other player should.
Tbh I really don't see your point on this. Ok Mega Sableye doesn't hit electric super effectively, so that means if your team has trouble with it, it should be banned? If I don't use any physical attackers then chansey walls electric too, so let's ban chansey too right. The whole point is that you are trying to counter your opponent. Nasty plot thundurus for example is a counter to Mega Sableye. If you choose not to use it, does that mean Sableye is OP or does it mean you were dumb enough to make a team 6-0d by one pokemon.
Haha I also just realised you acknowledged that poison is weak to Scizor and is forced to use weezing/tentacruel. But Scizor does not hit poison super effectively so doesn't that undermine your whole argument???
Lastly, about this:
" Read my entire post pls:
"Changin sets to deal with problematic mons to your team is a normal thing in monotype, and even encouraged, but the issue here is when more than 2 teams need niche sets to beat a single mon." "
Nowhere in this line did you mention anything about one type hitting another super effectively. In fact the first few words are useless in this argument which is why I omitted them in the first place.
PS rhetorical questions were strong in this one :O
Since nobody seems to actually understand the underlying argument, here it is as simple as possible:
MegaSableye forces a lot of types to use niche pokemon or alter sets in such a way that they lose the initial utility of the pokemon in the first place. Thus if you face a team without MegaSableye the pokemon because so much worst than it would otherwise be.
A good example is Tentacruel, being forced to be Rest Talk means that it can't Rapid Spin / Set up Toxic Spikes / Use Toxic, etc... which would help it much more when facing teams that didn't contain CM MegaSableye. Same with Toxic MegaAmpharos which would rather have the added longevity of Rest Talk or the extra coverage. And so and so with most "counters" to MegaSableye.
Fire Punch Rhyperior is not the same because Fire Punch Rhyperior has use other than serve as a Scizor check, it helps against Ferrothorn, prevents pokemon such as Chesnaught and Brellom to switch in for free, etc...
MegaSableye forces a lot of types to use niche pokemon or alter sets in such a way that they lose the initial utility of the pokemon in the first place. Thus if you face a team without MegaSableye the pokemon because so much worst than it would otherwise be.
A good example is Tentacruel, being forced to be Rest Talk means that it can't Rapid Spin / Set up Toxic Spikes / Use Toxic, etc... which would help it much more when facing teams that didn't contain CM MegaSableye. Same with Toxic MegaAmpharos which would rather have the added longevity of Rest Talk or the extra coverage. And so and so with most "counters" to MegaSableye.
Fire Punch Rhyperior is not the same because Fire Punch Rhyperior has use other than serve as a Scizor check, it helps against Ferrothorn, prevents pokemon such as Chesnaught and Brellom to switch in for free, etc...
Well Ampharos has uses too, it can toxic bulky walls like cresselia and porygon. Standard tentacruel uses acid spray to force out Sableye and then sets toxic spikes, rest talk is a terrible set. I agree that if you face a team without sableye then perhaps these sets wont be as good but there is an equivalent example for a lot of types. For example I use assault vest empoleon with rock slide on my steel team. I must stress that this is literally only for volcarona, but it does the job and that team has been very successful. Mega Sableye is a threat just like any other; sometimes you need niche sets to deal with it, but as long as your teams gells together then it doesn't matter.
If you need to use a niche set to deal with a certain pokemon, then a problem exists, even if your team "gells" together (Like seriously, niche sets are pretty damn hard to "gel" together)
Air Jak
Banned deucer.
Every team has a problem and a certain Pokemon that threatens the team. Not every team is perfect and requires a set or a specific pokemon to deal with it. Like how diancie steamrolls fire so air balloon flash cannon heatran or scarf tran threatens it. Or how sub calm mind keldeo 6-0's dark so brave bird mandibuzz is a thing.
Except those mons are useful for stuff other than Sableye. Balloon Heatran beats SR Hippo, Choice Locked Excadrill / Landorus-I, TankChomp, etc... Brave Bird Mandibuzz beats most fighting types least they have set up or have SE STAB. Many of this sets have little to no use outside of countering Sableye.
Gerard did you even read my post? I use rock slide Empoleon to check volcarona and it is useless outside of that. But anyway, let's go through some of these checks:
NP Thundy-I is one of the best wallbreakers in ou and so of course it puts in erious work in monotype
Banded Luxray is good but it's debatable whether it even beats mega Sableye so idk about that one
Toxic Ampharos can help break bulky like Cressellia
Specs Magnezone hits seriously hard and also serves as a mega venusaur check which I assume you also want to ban because it walls electric and water.
Sub cm raikou is an excellent win condition for electric in general
Double edge Glalie 0hkos most things
Same with Kyub
Specs Walrein checks scizor as well
Froslass has trick and speed utility
Tentacreul is often used with the acid spray set
I don't think any other types struggle particularly hard to beat mega Sableye, but as you can see all of these sets have uses outside of checking Sableye.
Thought i would put my opinion forward.
Right now, i feel like every type can check this thing, especially if its running WoW, Recover, Snarl and Calm mind. Switching in any fire type generally screws it over and it gives no prescence against any fire mono imo - or even any special sweeper with screw it over, so longs as it hasn't set up a million calm minds. I love the mon without the mega and i feel like its still useful, but has lost presence to the mega as people just take that as the option mindlessly. If you could type ban it, yeah sure i would, ghost really needs it but for dark it kind of just walks all over a whole bunch of teams for the typing. Unfortunately due to type banning being removed, its got to stay. Theres too much importance to it on a ghost team and it gives the ghost user what is a slight change to beat a dark mono team. As for what kills it, do i really need to chuck in calcs? its pretty obvious that almost any special fairy move will at least 2 hit ko it off a reasonable special attack and its got like 115 and 125 in sp.def and def respectivly so its meant to be able to take a hit. The only real threat mega sableye percieves is for teams which lack a effective special sweeper and even then after mega sableye is gone those teams will still suck because a will-o-wisp will still screw them over. Even aurorus can 2 H/Ko it with a blizzard (252+ SpA Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage) and its too slow to recover before the second blizzard. Also, mega sableye teams seem to be non exsistent once you hit about 1450 anyways, so it obviously can't be that overpowered if high level mono teams are sufficently dealing with it to stop it from being effective.
Anyways, conclusion time.
So mega sableye looks like it is just being used to patch up holes on teams right now, doesn't seem like a lot of people would know where to go without it. It seems like atm it is required on ghost as it gives a tiny chance for you to win against it but i mean, its highly unlikely anyways, howver it gives a lot of pressure to dark teams and is really not needed, often been taken over other mega for who knows what reason because it makes dark teams really strong with the fighting immunity and its bulk. Special sweepers and fire types just generally cause it to be useless and are more often going to end the sableyes life, so it dispatchable, but if you lose that specially sweeper than you consider it gg. Would type ban if i could, but since thats not an option, im going to vote to keep it because it has sufficent weaknesses. (god - that looks like anoter paragraph, i suck a being conclusive)
Right now, i feel like every type can check this thing, especially if its running WoW, Recover, Snarl and Calm mind. Switching in any fire type generally screws it over and it gives no prescence against any fire mono imo - or even any special sweeper with screw it over, so longs as it hasn't set up a million calm minds. I love the mon without the mega and i feel like its still useful, but has lost presence to the mega as people just take that as the option mindlessly. If you could type ban it, yeah sure i would, ghost really needs it but for dark it kind of just walks all over a whole bunch of teams for the typing. Unfortunately due to type banning being removed, its got to stay. Theres too much importance to it on a ghost team and it gives the ghost user what is a slight change to beat a dark mono team. As for what kills it, do i really need to chuck in calcs? its pretty obvious that almost any special fairy move will at least 2 hit ko it off a reasonable special attack and its got like 115 and 125 in sp.def and def respectivly so its meant to be able to take a hit. The only real threat mega sableye percieves is for teams which lack a effective special sweeper and even then after mega sableye is gone those teams will still suck because a will-o-wisp will still screw them over. Even aurorus can 2 H/Ko it with a blizzard (252+ SpA Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage) and its too slow to recover before the second blizzard. Also, mega sableye teams seem to be non exsistent once you hit about 1450 anyways, so it obviously can't be that overpowered if high level mono teams are sufficently dealing with it to stop it from being effective.
Anyways, conclusion time.
So mega sableye looks like it is just being used to patch up holes on teams right now, doesn't seem like a lot of people would know where to go without it. It seems like atm it is required on ghost as it gives a tiny chance for you to win against it but i mean, its highly unlikely anyways, howver it gives a lot of pressure to dark teams and is really not needed, often been taken over other mega for who knows what reason because it makes dark teams really strong with the fighting immunity and its bulk. Special sweepers and fire types just generally cause it to be useless and are more often going to end the sableyes life, so it dispatchable, but if you lose that specially sweeper than you consider it gg. Would type ban if i could, but since thats not an option, im going to vote to keep it because it has sufficent weaknesses. (god - that looks like anoter paragraph, i suck a being conclusive)
Quoting a paragraph from Scpinion's first post ''Scizor vs Talonflame'': ''Scizor destroys Ice, Rock, and Fairy. However, were it banned, Ice would still be as bad as it currently is, as would Rock. Scizor is great at exploiting the weaknesses of those teams (poor defensive typings, weak to common priority). Fairy struggles because it lacks Steel resistances that are able to hit Scizor for significant damage. These are flaws of those teams, not Scizor. Other types/'mons exploit these same weaknesses when facing Ice, Rock and Fairy. Additionally, the 15 other types have reliable methods to check Scizor.
Overall, it isn't that Scizor is too strong for the metagame (broken) or undesirable to the point it inhibits skillful play (unhealthy); instead, 3 types are ill-equipped to handle Scizor in addition to many other aspects of the metagame. By banning it we would lose more than we gain.''
This is very similar to Sableye in my opinion. Sableye really isn't that overpowered for the mono teams. But it can exploit their playstyle to its advantage. Just because two types (counting Electric and Poison) are ill-equipped to check a threat like Mega-Sableye doesn't mean we should straight up ban it. Let's be honest if Scizor wasn't that great of a threat to ice monos Lapras and Walrein would be just ''niche'' pokemon that have minimal reasons to be on a team. Is Scizor banned? no... I couldn't agree more with 1 True Lycan saying that niche sets is the nature of the monotype metagame. Just banning a pokemon to boost a couple types that lie at the bottom of the usage stats doesn't seem logic to me.''By banning it we would lose more than we gain.''
Overall, it isn't that Scizor is too strong for the metagame (broken) or undesirable to the point it inhibits skillful play (unhealthy); instead, 3 types are ill-equipped to handle Scizor in addition to many other aspects of the metagame. By banning it we would lose more than we gain.''
This is very similar to Sableye in my opinion. Sableye really isn't that overpowered for the mono teams. But it can exploit their playstyle to its advantage. Just because two types (counting Electric and Poison) are ill-equipped to check a threat like Mega-Sableye doesn't mean we should straight up ban it. Let's be honest if Scizor wasn't that great of a threat to ice monos Lapras and Walrein would be just ''niche'' pokemon that have minimal reasons to be on a team. Is Scizor banned? no... I couldn't agree more with 1 True Lycan saying that niche sets is the nature of the monotype metagame. Just banning a pokemon to boost a couple types that lie at the bottom of the usage stats doesn't seem logic to me.''By banning it we would lose more than we gain.''
Air Jak
Banned deucer.
I realize that those stuff are useful for mons other than Sableye, they were just examples, if you didn't catch the drift. Also ah yes, Balloon Heatran, the Landorus I counter. And besides, most types have checks and counters to battle mega sableye, you do have 6 pokemon on the team. Fire has wall breaking prowess and sun. Water has azumarill, Mega Gyarados(which beats the calm mind version with sub and dd), Manaphy which can set up faster before sableye can calm mind. etc....
My Fairy Team can easily handle Scizor. I might have had to put on something that I otherwise wouldn't have but I don't think it makes my Fairy Team any worse than someone else's Fairy. I can do the same with Rock and Ice. I'm pretty sure about that, but what Mega Sableye has are Teammates that can easily counter or check these so called "counters" most people are posting.
In that case maybe we should consider to ban its teammates just like how Zapdos got banned before for forming too good defensive cores that worked well with flying's megas.
Physical Tyranitar
formerly Marquis of Blaze
Really. Assuming that you are using a Fighting Monotype, Dark/Ghost has many ways to deal with Infernape. I remember someone saying that Mega Sableye could switch into Chandelure or Mandibuzz, both of which are basically staples on their respective types. Seeing that their Mega Sableye was considerably hurt by an Adamant/Lonely/Naught Infernape (generally Infernapes do not go for Attack-boosting natures anyway), they would switch out. Things are just more complicated than that.
I couldn't agree with what ashaury said more. Talking about hypothetical scenarios that easily could be taken advantage of do not contribute to the conversation. Infernape is one of the few Fighting Pokemon that either are unaffected or are helped by being burned, and I think that I speak for everybody when I say that we all know that a Max Attack Positive Natured Infernape will do some considerable damage. Plus:
252+ Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
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dusk raimon
Banned deucer.
Even though I achieved reqs a few days ago I still have no idea about what I really want to vote on the monotype suspect test number 2, mega sableye. This is because it's role on ghost is completely irreplaceable by any other mon on ghost, while on dark it succeeds in making a good type better.
1.(Ghost) on ghost it's role in keeping hazards off the field is unquestionably valuable, as well as being one of the only semi checks to other cm mega sableyes in ghost. Without mega sableye ghost would have to run Defog drifblim for hazard removal, which is a risky option as drifblim has poor defenses. Mega sableye with great mixed bulk can also act as a status spreader with reliable recovery, another thing which ghost loves. While normal sableye is seen as a better stall-breaker, sableye is also ghosts most viable mega by far and can stallbreak just as well with its great mixed bulk. It can run many sets ranging from cm to support with knock off, all of which are backed up by its amazing ability in magic bounce. It is completely irreplaceable on ghost and ghost would be less viable without it.
On the other hand....
2.(Dark) on dark, it succeeds in making dark one of the most scary types to come up against, as well as being used a lot. It isn't completely irreplaceable on dark, as mandi can reliably remove hazards. It is by far the best calm mind sweeper on dark, and it's fighting immunity and bug neutrality coupled with will-o-wisp and great bulk make it very hard to take down as well as supporting dark and leaning some bad match ups more in its favour. What's more its wide movepool, consisting of metal burst, foul play, knock off, recover, willowisp, calm mind etc allow it to take on many roles. It is less detrimental to dark than ghost, but it's abilities to make dark a much scarier type are the reasons why I think I might want to ban it.
So it's a case of making ghost worse, or keeping dark very good. Right now im leaning towards no ban, as it is completely irreplaceable on ghost, although it has quite a few checks,(some of which it can overcome with its wide movepool) but who knows? What do u guys think?
1.(Ghost) on ghost it's role in keeping hazards off the field is unquestionably valuable, as well as being one of the only semi checks to other cm mega sableyes in ghost. Without mega sableye ghost would have to run Defog drifblim for hazard removal, which is a risky option as drifblim has poor defenses. Mega sableye with great mixed bulk can also act as a status spreader with reliable recovery, another thing which ghost loves. While normal sableye is seen as a better stall-breaker, sableye is also ghosts most viable mega by far and can stallbreak just as well with its great mixed bulk. It can run many sets ranging from cm to support with knock off, all of which are backed up by its amazing ability in magic bounce. It is completely irreplaceable on ghost and ghost would be less viable without it.
On the other hand....
2.(Dark) on dark, it succeeds in making dark one of the most scary types to come up against, as well as being used a lot. It isn't completely irreplaceable on dark, as mandi can reliably remove hazards. It is by far the best calm mind sweeper on dark, and it's fighting immunity and bug neutrality coupled with will-o-wisp and great bulk make it very hard to take down as well as supporting dark and leaning some bad match ups more in its favour. What's more its wide movepool, consisting of metal burst, foul play, knock off, recover, willowisp, calm mind etc allow it to take on many roles. It is less detrimental to dark than ghost, but it's abilities to make dark a much scarier type are the reasons why I think I might want to ban it.
So it's a case of making ghost worse, or keeping dark very good. Right now im leaning towards no ban, as it is completely irreplaceable on ghost, although it has quite a few checks,(some of which it can overcome with its wide movepool) but who knows? What do u guys think?
Physical Tyranitar
formerly Marquis of Blaze
My friend, I agree with your philosophy. Mega Sableye is a Pokemon that can never truly be replicated. Mega Sableye's fate is a matter of almost guaranteeing that Ghost will never be as powerful as it was before, or having Dark lose one of it's strongest assets. I think that it is not worthy of a ban, which is why I am now making the trek to 2600 Coil to share my opinion on this.
I have once even seen an Offensive Mega Sableye when I was in low ladder, making use of his highly stupid movepool, with options such as Octazooka, Power Gem, Dark Pulse, etc. I know that it's stupid, but does anyone else have ever had an encounter with this?
Thats the reason why im still unsure if vote ban or no ban, that and the fact i beat megasableye with the types I normally use. I even thought about don't vote and leave the choice to the other reqs guys thodusk raimon said:
#freetypebansformegasableye
for those reading into the argument that the "niche" sets that came about to beat mega-sableye are completely useless otherwise and that the metagame shouldn't be forced to run niche sets / pokemon for it, consider the following:
Torkoal's only use on Fire teams is Rapid Spin. It is a decent physical wall, and it gets some decent status options, but at the end of the day, if it did not have Rapid Spin it likely wouldn't even be ranked in monotype (currently ranked A). Without Torkoal, Fire teams would either rely on Charizard's defog to remove rocks (Zard takes 50% on switching in and is usually forced to run its mega-stone, forgoing other items) or resign itself to eating major damage from Stealth Rocks throughout the battle.
Do we consider banning Stealth Rock since it requires Fire to run a "niche" pokemon or "niche" move on ZardY to combat it? (not even gonna talk about what SR does against Ice teams)... Or do we keep SR and force Fire teams to adapt or lose?
Mega-Sableye is obviously not the same as the move Stealth Rock, but it similarly forces some types to adapt or lose. (As a disclaimer, I am not suggesting we suspect-test SR, in case you decide to take my post literally).
Torkoal's only use on Fire teams is Rapid Spin. It is a decent physical wall, and it gets some decent status options, but at the end of the day, if it did not have Rapid Spin it likely wouldn't even be ranked in monotype (currently ranked A). Without Torkoal, Fire teams would either rely on Charizard's defog to remove rocks (Zard takes 50% on switching in and is usually forced to run its mega-stone, forgoing other items) or resign itself to eating major damage from Stealth Rocks throughout the battle.
Do we consider banning Stealth Rock since it requires Fire to run a "niche" pokemon or "niche" move on ZardY to combat it? (not even gonna talk about what SR does against Ice teams)... Or do we keep SR and force Fire teams to adapt or lose?
Mega-Sableye is obviously not the same as the move Stealth Rock, but it similarly forces some types to adapt or lose. (As a disclaimer, I am not suggesting we suspect-test SR, in case you decide to take my post literally).
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