i would like to nominate Dugtrio to C+, Dugtrio is an interesting support mon, being able of trap and remove a lot of things that may cause problems to your sweeper, or use memento to help a set-up against something dugtrio can't toutch(the list is big). The meta becoming more offensvie helps dugtrio, since he struggles against defensive mons, and sometimes can take more than one pokemon per game against HO. the list of mons that Dugtrio can remove include Char-x/y, (mega)alakazam, bisharp, mega diancie, excadrill, tyrantirar(removing ttar in early game, can criple excadrill rly hard), heatran, keldeo, hoopa-u, mega-lop(without reciving a Fake out), metagross, talonflame, mega man, jirachi, raikou, magnezone, volcarona. and thats only between S and A-. of course dugtrio faces a lot of problem, like defensive mons in general, and being almost dead weight when there is hazzards in the field, but in this offensive meta he become really usefull for mons that apreciate one of that above mons being removed, and/or set-up sweepers that need a safe set-up(and can get that because of Memento). So if dugtrio in a balanced meta is C, i think dutrio in a more offensive meta should be at least C+
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4
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Dugtrio can't even trap and "remove" half of the mons you mentioned. For Dugtrio to effectively "remove" something from the game, there has to be 4 conditions: 1) no hazards, 2) switch-in on the mon, 3) either take 1 hit (sash) and outspeed or take 2 hits, and 4) actually eliminate
First off, Char Y and Talonflame are neither trapped nor eliminated by Dugtrio, so that should be out of the list. Other than that:
Char X: It DDs on the switch, breaks sash, lives eq, and then kills.
Mega Alakazam: It megas on the switch and breaks sash, copies arena trap and traps dugtrio (lol), then finishes it off at max hp.
Bisharp: knock off / iron head on the switch then Sucker punch
Mega diancie: only has 37.5% chance to OHKO w/ EQ
excadrill, Heatran, & tyranitar: yeah it eliminates them, but it has to be outside of sand for exca.
Hoopa-U: It can only eliminate it if it went for HyperSpace Fury so that it can nail the KO
Keldeo: what? This thing takes 2 eqs with ease
Mega lop: this thing outspeeds and kills
Mega Mane: even if this thing went for an electric move on the duggy switch, it can still live 1 eq assuming it mega evolved on the switch
metagross: this thing takes an eq and if it has BP then it's even worse.
Jirachi: EQ doesn't even kill 0 hp / 0 def Jirachi
Raikou, volcarona, & magnezone: yeah it traps these
And i don't like the "dugtrio in an offensive meta should be at least C+" because sure, many people say the meta is offensive, but although it is, it's not really THAT offensive, Balanced is no where near dead and semi-stall and stall are as lively as ever. I mean I can maybe see it rising to C+ but definitely not for the reasons you gave.
dugtrio doesn't need to switch against anything, in my experience dugtrio should appears after something die or via volturn. having 2 turns to attack makes him check all this mons, also i was considering sucker punch as an option to. and nobody uses dugtrio as switch to faster offensive mons. both char-y and talon are killed by stone edge, keldeo is 2koed by reversal, witch is the strongest move in most cases. also i sad that he can remove that mons, not that he can switch against, trap and remove.
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Rock Tomb + EQ kills Char-X, and is a viable option on Dugtrio just because DD Zard-X is a huge target for Dugtrio. I think the list of targets he mentioned is a little off (Keldeo???), but I think the niche of trapping a particular Pokemon that is extremely problematic for your team is justifiable to C+. Even if nothing else, having Dugtrio on a team puts immense pressure on the opponent, as they have to play around it very carefully.
Wait is Meta seriously still C+? That shit is so fucking good right now I don't even consider it to be THAT niche considering how AV provides an insane amount of utility for bulky offense and even balance to an extent. It's practically the best Lati trapper in the tier considering it switch into Draco with impunity, easily avoids the 2HKO from both HP Fire AND EQ, and even if Lati decides to be a bitch and stay in as you Pursuit it's most likely going to be in BP range. It's also one of the best offensive Mega Gard switch ins, can switch in AND Pursuit trap both Zam forms, checks practically every relevant Fairy bar Azu, has priority so it isn't a complete waste vs offense, pretty cool coverage moves to bop certain things (has some annoying MSS but it can run shit like Ice Punch to lure Chomp and Lando-T if you pair with something like Mega Lop), and it packs quite a punch too.
Yea it's completely walled by practically any relevant defensive Steel not named Heatran or bulky Ground unless you run Ice Punch (which it can rarely afford to do), but it's not really meant to be an offensive powerhouse or anything. Its sole purpose is to Pursuit trap and being able to pivot into strong special attacks from the likes of Pokemon that normally heavily pressure bulkier builds such as Mega Zam, Mega Gard, Latios (especially ones with CM), and Mega Diancie spike stacking shenanigans. We all know how amazing Pursuit trappers are at the moment, and I would go as far to say that AV Meta is one of the most successful outside of like Scarf Tar. It's not splashable or anything, but it has a MUCH bigger niche in the OU metagame than practically every mon found in C+, and I'd even go as far to say more than some of the shit found in B- AND B, but a lot of Pokemon in those ranks need to be looked at anyway, so I'm not going to say much about them.
So yeah, move Metagross to at least B- please, C+ is a huge insult to its surprisingly high amount of utility.
Yea it's completely walled by practically any relevant defensive Steel not named Heatran or bulky Ground unless you run Ice Punch (which it can rarely afford to do), but it's not really meant to be an offensive powerhouse or anything. Its sole purpose is to Pursuit trap and being able to pivot into strong special attacks from the likes of Pokemon that normally heavily pressure bulkier builds such as Mega Zam, Mega Gard, Latios (especially ones with CM), and Mega Diancie spike stacking shenanigans. We all know how amazing Pursuit trappers are at the moment, and I would go as far to say that AV Meta is one of the most successful outside of like Scarf Tar. It's not splashable or anything, but it has a MUCH bigger niche in the OU metagame than practically every mon found in C+, and I'd even go as far to say more than some of the shit found in B- AND B, but a lot of Pokemon in those ranks need to be looked at anyway, so I'm not going to say much about them.
So yeah, move Metagross to at least B- please, C+ is a huge insult to its surprisingly high amount of utility.
I would like to nominate Mega Gallade to B+
First of all, Gallade had probably some of the best coverage in the tier. It gets STAB Close Combat and Zen Headbutt, along with Knock off utility. Other useful coverage it gets is Poison Jab to counter fairy types that threaten it such as Sylveon and Clefable, who was originally Anti-Set up. Ice and Thunder punch can effectively handle flying types such as Staraptor and Zapdos. Ice punch also takes care of many offensive physical threats to Mega Gallade such as Garchomp, Lando-T, Zygarde and Dragonite.
Mega Gallade lies in a complex speed tier, speed tiring with Mega Metagross and the Lati Twins. However, Mega Metagross usually likes to run Adamant to boost its tough claws boosted STAB moves, and can be countered with fire punch coverage.The Latis are sometimes found with bulkier defog sets and can be countered with Ice Punch.
Gallade also gets tons of useful utility such as Wil-O-Wisp to give unexpected burns, crippling physical threats to it. It gets decent priority in shadow sneak and even gets utility in destiny bond, It can even run alternate sets such as defensive bulk up.
Overall, Mega Gallade is a powerhouse that can act as an early game wall breaker or a late game sweeper/cleaner, with its wide coverage. It can be run defensively with bulk up and has many utility options.
First of all, Gallade had probably some of the best coverage in the tier. It gets STAB Close Combat and Zen Headbutt, along with Knock off utility. Other useful coverage it gets is Poison Jab to counter fairy types that threaten it such as Sylveon and Clefable, who was originally Anti-Set up. Ice and Thunder punch can effectively handle flying types such as Staraptor and Zapdos. Ice punch also takes care of many offensive physical threats to Mega Gallade such as Garchomp, Lando-T, Zygarde and Dragonite.
Mega Gallade lies in a complex speed tier, speed tiring with Mega Metagross and the Lati Twins. However, Mega Metagross usually likes to run Adamant to boost its tough claws boosted STAB moves, and can be countered with fire punch coverage.The Latis are sometimes found with bulkier defog sets and can be countered with Ice Punch.
Gallade also gets tons of useful utility such as Wil-O-Wisp to give unexpected burns, crippling physical threats to it. It gets decent priority in shadow sneak and even gets utility in destiny bond, It can even run alternate sets such as defensive bulk up.
Overall, Mega Gallade is a powerhouse that can act as an early game wall breaker or a late game sweeper/cleaner, with its wide coverage. It can be run defensively with bulk up and has many utility options.
Ah yes I did intend to touch on fleggumfl's nomination of Metagross to B- on the merits of its AV set
After playing with it a decent amount, I agree. Pursuit trapping is amazing in this metagame and it's another bulky steel type which is always welcome. Being a check to Mega Alakazam (and not allowing it to run away!) is pretty sick and Gardevoir switch-ins are fairly scarce as well which it does a solid job of. Pairs well with your typical pursuit support lovers like Keldeo and Zard Y, and Clear Body means that Landorus-T actually takes a pretty solid amount from Meteor Mash. Granted it is sort of set up fodder for stuff like Mega Scizor and Talonflame (unless you run TPunch but I haven't really heard of that lol), but provides a solid amount of team support and it's usually a threat to a couple pokemon on any given offensive team.
As for (also flegg's) nomination of Jirachi to rise to A I disagree. I feel like its specially defensive set is good but is so damn passive and kind of matchup dependent. SubToxic is okay but once again really sorta passive in a lot of scenarios and kind of just Heatran food. Scarf is probably the best set IMO since its a nice fairy type check on offense with pivot and healing wish capabilities but really hates the presence of Tank Chomp and honestly a bunch of other stuff depending on its somewhat mediocre coverage. None of its sets stand out as A material to me, and even though it has multiple usable sets, none of them are dominant enough to merit a rise IMO.
After playing with it a decent amount, I agree. Pursuit trapping is amazing in this metagame and it's another bulky steel type which is always welcome. Being a check to Mega Alakazam (and not allowing it to run away!) is pretty sick and Gardevoir switch-ins are fairly scarce as well which it does a solid job of. Pairs well with your typical pursuit support lovers like Keldeo and Zard Y, and Clear Body means that Landorus-T actually takes a pretty solid amount from Meteor Mash. Granted it is sort of set up fodder for stuff like Mega Scizor and Talonflame (unless you run TPunch but I haven't really heard of that lol), but provides a solid amount of team support and it's usually a threat to a couple pokemon on any given offensive team.
As for (also flegg's) nomination of Jirachi to rise to A I disagree. I feel like its specially defensive set is good but is so damn passive and kind of matchup dependent. SubToxic is okay but once again really sorta passive in a lot of scenarios and kind of just Heatran food. Scarf is probably the best set IMO since its a nice fairy type check on offense with pivot and healing wish capabilities but really hates the presence of Tank Chomp and honestly a bunch of other stuff depending on its somewhat mediocre coverage. None of its sets stand out as A material to me, and even though it has multiple usable sets, none of them are dominant enough to merit a rise IMO.
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I would like to throw in my cents on the Metagross thing. I totally agree on the fact that Metagross AV has good niche in current metagame, first because he can check a fuck ton of potential and dangerous threats such as Alakazam-Mega / Gardevoir-Mega / Clefable / Diancie-Mega / Tornadus-T.. by just trapping them or deal with heavy damages, even though we can say Metagross-Mega can outclass regular form on most caracteristics (especially offensive one as it can be a really good balance breaker with Grass Knot and Offenser breaker with Agility), when it come to support regular Metagross is way better than Mega as Metagross-Mega can not always be used as a "check" due to Thunder Wave in case of Clefable or Shadow Ball / Heat Wave from Alakazam-Mega / Tornadus-T. Metagross for B-
I disagree with your nomination for a few reasons. For starters, it has strong competition with Mega Medicham, which has more immediate power and double priority. It is true, though, that Mega Gallade is faster, bulkier, and it has access to Swords Dance. The problem, however, is the fact that it isn't always possible to set up with Mega Gallade due to its only good bulk, lack of resistances, and susceptibility to status (burns and paras make it near useless). Mega Medicham doesn't have to waste a turn setting up, as it already has insane power, which makes it a more attractive action most of the time imo.
Mega Gallade also REALLY wants to use Swords Dance and Knock Off usually. Sure, Ice Punch lands a heavy hit on stuff like Landorus-T and Gliscor, and Shadow Sneak could be a useful priority move, but they are inferior options most of the time imo because Knock Off prevents fat Psychics, like Mew and Slowbro, from cockblocking Gallade, and Shadow Sneak is piss-weak, so it's only useful if the opposing Pokemon is severely damaged. Ice Punch is a bit better, but a boosted Zen Headbutt already does good damage to them already. Same goes for Poison Jab and fairies. Zen Headbutt already crushes many Flying type Pokemon after a boost, too. Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond are trash on Gallade, as it sacrifices important movesets, which are better reserved for coverage and Swords Dance imo. SD is basically mandatory because without it, it has a hard time breaking through anything that's not frail or severely weakened. Bulk Up does raise its Attack and Defense, which is cool, but it lacks the immediate power that SD provides, making it an inferior option most of the time. Mega Gallade is still a good Pokemon to use in Overused, but it has enough flaws that hold it back from B+ imo.
On a side note, Mega Metagross and the Latis are typically max speed Jolly/Timid, respectively. The Latis also eat an Ice Punch from full and threaten with Draco.
252 Atk Mega Gallade Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 236-278 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 246-290 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
No need to calc Latias because it's even bulkier.
252 Atk Mega Gallade Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-218 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not concrete, but it can Protect stall, making it an even more favorable matchup, while clef can twave or moonblast it.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gallade: 246-290 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
No need to calc Latias because it's even bulkier.
252 Atk Mega Gallade Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-218 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not concrete, but it can Protect stall, making it an even more favorable matchup, while clef can twave or moonblast it.
Gallade is in an arkward spot between Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny, not to mention that it is complete Sableye bait unless it somehow gets Skill Swapped Scrappy or something lol. Unlike Medicham, its speed tier is such that it is forced to run Jolly, which has a significant effect on its power and means that it needs a Swords Dance to achieve anything of use in the vast majority of matches due to the fact that, even with 170 base attack, an unboosted, neutral-natured attack without an item isn't actually gonna do that much to a lot of its key targets. Its too slow to break offense like Lop does, and its only form of priority is the mediocre Shadow Sneak (which puts it behind both of Medicham and Lopunny who both have very viable dual-prio options) - meaning that even the slower Medicham is able to take on offense better than it is, while also faring better v.s. stall (although Sab is a bitch lol).
If anything, Gallade is a reasonably good candidate to move down. It just faces so much competition for a teamslot that I really can't see any justification for why this dogshit should be on the same level as stuff like Sharpedo who are actually good 'mons who are worth using lol.
While I'm looking at/thinking about B, I thought I may as well make a nom of my own:
Hawlucha B-->B+
Hawlucha is super under-prepared for atm, and it is able to tear apart such a huge volume of teams across all archetypes to the point of being ridiculous for a number of teams to handle. It sets up on both Sableye and Goth due to Sub protecting it from Wisp and Trick (and using Sub on the turn Gothi locks gives Lucha a free SD due to Unburden), and it needs minimal support to eliminate its stops on stall (Magnezone support gets rid of Skarm, Speedy Wobb+Pursuit actually tears all of its checks on stall apart lol). V.S. offense, its set once it can get a sub up+Talon/Pinsir/Thundy are down/any sashes are broken due to Unburden being insane (if MegaZam or whatever switches in on it, it just subs again as they break its sub and it can then set up on the following turn provided no Encore (most are Sub or T-Wave nowadays anyway), allowing it to net any KOs it may miss without the boost). With the meta having such a surge of offense and stall, Hawlucha is in a better position than it has been in a long time, as those types of teams are the ones that it thrives on. All in all, I think that, if its ever gonna rise, it should be now (but as soon as Sab/Goth goes it will probably fall out of favor again lol rip).
If anything, Gallade is a reasonably good candidate to move down. It just faces so much competition for a teamslot that I really can't see any justification for why this dogshit should be on the same level as stuff like Sharpedo who are actually good 'mons who are worth using lol.
While I'm looking at/thinking about B, I thought I may as well make a nom of my own:
Hawlucha B-->B+
Hawlucha is super under-prepared for atm, and it is able to tear apart such a huge volume of teams across all archetypes to the point of being ridiculous for a number of teams to handle. It sets up on both Sableye and Goth due to Sub protecting it from Wisp and Trick (and using Sub on the turn Gothi locks gives Lucha a free SD due to Unburden), and it needs minimal support to eliminate its stops on stall (Magnezone support gets rid of Skarm, Speedy Wobb+Pursuit actually tears all of its checks on stall apart lol). V.S. offense, its set once it can get a sub up+Talon/Pinsir/Thundy are down/any sashes are broken due to Unburden being insane (if MegaZam or whatever switches in on it, it just subs again as they break its sub and it can then set up on the following turn provided no Encore (most are Sub or T-Wave nowadays anyway), allowing it to net any KOs it may miss without the boost). With the meta having such a surge of offense and stall, Hawlucha is in a better position than it has been in a long time, as those types of teams are the ones that it thrives on. All in all, I think that, if its ever gonna rise, it should be now (but as soon as Sab/Goth goes it will probably fall out of favor again lol rip).
I don't really see a favorable set of circumstances for Hawlucha with Weavile and Torn everywhere preventing it from setting up along with a plethora of priority running around.
As for that stall matchup you mentioned, that seems wayyy more predicated on the support you cited. Mag helps Gard beat stall and Tickle Wobb + Pursuit lets just about anything sweep stall.
Hawlucha just kills itself on Tank Chomp and honestly only gets setup opportunities on predicted switches. Things so matchup dependent and its unboosted speed tier isn't what it used to be. It's really not on the same level as stuff like Dragonite or Feraligatr
As for that stall matchup you mentioned, that seems wayyy more predicated on the support you cited. Mag helps Gard beat stall and Tickle Wobb + Pursuit lets just about anything sweep stall.
Hawlucha just kills itself on Tank Chomp and honestly only gets setup opportunities on predicted switches. Things so matchup dependent and its unboosted speed tier isn't what it used to be. It's really not on the same level as stuff like Dragonite or Feraligatr
hey, coud I nominate goth to A-? I don't want to oversell her, but it seems like with m-sab she's an incredible threat. I feel that she's definitely on par with most of the other A- mons due to her fantastic support .I'm sure you all have some idea of what she does, so I'll remind on how nice it can be to have a. Pokemon who can blanket check most slower, priority-free setup sweepers. With its trick scarf set alone it can menace a fair portion of the upper ranks bar megas. What's changed for it? The prominence of m-sab stall. As most know, m-sab and goth complement each other quite nicely. Personally, i'd say that it's always been pretty underrated, but that's just my opinion.
Edit: sorry for my crudely grammar. Am on mobile
EDIT 2: can we discuss zoroack now? It's been like 10 days, and I think it's worth a shot.
Edit: sorry for my crudely grammar. Am on mobile
EDIT 2: can we discuss zoroack now? It's been like 10 days, and I think it's worth a shot.
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Politoed should stay imo because the two viable weathers in ou are sand and rain and politoed is the mon keeping rain viable. Plus with the drop in usage of zard y, it has one less obstacle in keeping rain up.
Scizor is a B mon imo. Talon, tran, and chomp are still high in usage, and (I believe) scizor was B before tank chomp got big so idk why a decline in its usage would merrit scizor's rise now. Its only niche set is really band but it greatly is outclassed by mzor. Not enough has changed to merrit its rise.
Sylveon's only niche now is specs and even that is very exploitable. Definitely should drop to C+.
Scizor is a B mon imo. Talon, tran, and chomp are still high in usage, and (I believe) scizor was B before tank chomp got big so idk why a decline in its usage would merrit scizor's rise now. Its only niche set is really band but it greatly is outclassed by mzor. Not enough has changed to merrit its rise.
Sylveon's only niche now is specs and even that is very exploitable. Definitely should drop to C+.
sup
A- --> B+
I really believe this had it coming for a while. People see Mega Aero as this awesome offensive killer, but it often times falls flat on it's face against offensive and more balanced teams alike. Our Metagame trends have been unfavorable for it for a while. It fails against Clefable, Slowbro, Mega Manectric, TankChomp, Metagross, and hella more. Yeah it can check Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Thundy, Torn-T, Weavile, standard terrors to teams but what can't? A lot of what I listed can be checked by more viable and threatening things like Mega Lop, Mega Man, Alakazam, even Talonflame who it faces a lot of competition from.
Basically Mega Aero faces a lot of completion as a late game cleaner and RKiller on the whole by better Megas like Lop, Manectric, Alakazam, and even Talonflame who doesn't take the Mega Slot. It's also not really effective in what it's supposed to do. It's still a decently good mon but it really isn't on par with things like Mega Pinsir and Raikou. I see it along the lines of Diggersby, Victini, and Terrakion who even then is pushing it.
I really believe this had it coming for a while. People see Mega Aero as this awesome offensive killer, but it often times falls flat on it's face against offensive and more balanced teams alike. Our Metagame trends have been unfavorable for it for a while. It fails against Clefable, Slowbro, Mega Manectric, TankChomp, Metagross, and hella more. Yeah it can check Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Thundy, Torn-T, Weavile, standard terrors to teams but what can't? A lot of what I listed can be checked by more viable and threatening things like Mega Lop, Mega Man, Alakazam, even Talonflame who it faces a lot of competition from.
Basically Mega Aero faces a lot of completion as a late game cleaner and RKiller on the whole by better Megas like Lop, Manectric, Alakazam, and even Talonflame who doesn't take the Mega Slot. It's also not really effective in what it's supposed to do. It's still a decently good mon but it really isn't on par with things like Mega Pinsir and Raikou. I see it along the lines of Diggersby, Victini, and Terrakion who even then is pushing it.
I see where your coming from, but Gothitelle has been moved up from B to B+ just the last slate 3 pages ago, and almost everybody agreed to the change. So considering it JUST moved up, I think you should at least mention in your argument how do you think Goth changed just from the last week or two. So I would calm down a bit and wait for other things to settle down and bring it up later.
Normally I'd agree with this, but honestly goth wad ranked too low to begin with. Sure, nothing has changed in a few pages, but I and as you can see others believe it was an a- mon in the first place. Which is why I don't think that argument applies here. Just my 2 cents.
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I think Politoed should stay in A- simply because of how good rain is as a play style atm and I think one thing it doesn't get enough credit for is bringing encore to the table which yea it's not the greatest of moves, but it definitely sets up opportunities for your team and makes it so setup sweepers can't abuse the turn Poli's in play. Speaking for how my team is set up, locking in a setup sweeper allows me to get a free mega evolve on MSwamp which sometimes just = victory, setting up a Tail Glow on Manaphy or giving Thundurus a turn to status which are all win conditions depending on what team I'm facing. If you guess wrong and get attacked Poli usually has the bulk to take a hit and then give you a free swap anyway to something with a resist/immunity so it's kinda a win/win. I can give a lot of scenarios where Politoed is more useful than your average lead like making Tankchomp useless and beating Gothitelle but I think anyone who's played with rain teams a lot can tell you about multiple times where Politoed turned out to be the hero for the team just by making smart predictions.
Sylveon ---> C-/C: This pokemon is just exhausted. It really sucks in this meta, with Specs Hyper Voice being the only thing it has going for it. It's even worse than all the mons residing in C+ in my opinion, since mons such as Conkeldurr, AV Metagross, Alomomola, Cobalion and Entei really seem to be better at doing their jobs. Sylveon, in comparison, is outclassed at any defensive set it tries to use, be it Wish+Protect or Calm Mind (ok it has BP so I guess it has a niche over Clef but honestly the latter is just so good it probably doesn't even need BP). The Specs set is the only set worth using in the meta, but I'd personally argue some Choice abusers in the C ranks (Entei, Staraptor) are better since they either sport better options against offense (Entei with a move that has a 47.5% chance to burn plus ExtremeSpeed) or hit so much harder and have a better offensive typing (Staraptor). Sylveon's Hyper Voice is very easy to telegraph, and not that hard to switch into with all the defensive options balance has, like Heatran, Mega Venu, Ferro, Skarm, Mega Scizor/Meta, etc etc etc. Not to mention other wallbreakers in the C ranks such as Infernape, Conkeldurr, Nidoking and Mega Houndoom which don't need a choice item to break stuff and do their jobs decently, and imo, better than Sylveon.
Sylveon is just trash. Definitely not pushing it for D/unranked but imo it's even worse than the stuff in C+ so yea
Sylveon is just trash. Definitely not pushing it for D/unranked but imo it's even worse than the stuff in C+ so yea
All of the mons you listed are lured and beaten by a coverage move. Sylveon is crazy strong. Like, significantly stronger than Gardevoir. Given sylveon's speed, it obviously won't be plowing through an entire team (though a mispredict from the opponent makes that a feasible option), but you can't ignore how strong that fairy coverage is.
Your comment about hyper voice being easy to predict puzzles me. Of course it is the most obvious move. I don't get why that does anything but make it more effective when it comes to luring its checks via HP fire/ground, psyshock, bpass. Getting locked into a hp like that is risky, but you face the same risk with almost any scarfer. The balanced teams that sylveon finds itself on should have a way to deal with potential setup regardless (klefki in particular makes a great partner). Its only real switchins are mons like chansey, and heatran/sp bulky steels depending on the hidden power. This is actually a big deal when you consider how great hyper voice is against pretty much any other Mon that wants to switch in.
Speaking of baton pass, it is actually a pretty nice niche to have. Pairing sylveon with, say, medicham will allow you an easy pivot into medicham who can basically 1hko most of the things that sylveon dislikes. Add klefki/spike stacking to the mix, and you end up forcing lots of switches and lots of hazard damage (plus the huge hit incurred by witching into either of them). A couple rounds of spikes causes both of their switchins to dwindle away. Klefki's twave only helps the core.
I know that I'm basically listing off good traits, but when you reach the trashy parts in the rankings, the goal is to show that it isn't completely trashy. What has changed to even warrant it to fall to begin with?
In any case, your ridiculous hyperbole (lol bordering on D/unranked?) brings a lot of question to your experience with sylveon, but I digress.
Your comment about hyper voice being easy to predict puzzles me. Of course it is the most obvious move. I don't get why that does anything but make it more effective when it comes to luring its checks via HP fire/ground, psyshock, bpass. Getting locked into a hp like that is risky, but you face the same risk with almost any scarfer. The balanced teams that sylveon finds itself on should have a way to deal with potential setup regardless (klefki in particular makes a great partner). Its only real switchins are mons like chansey, and heatran/sp bulky steels depending on the hidden power. This is actually a big deal when you consider how great hyper voice is against pretty much any other Mon that wants to switch in.
Speaking of baton pass, it is actually a pretty nice niche to have. Pairing sylveon with, say, medicham will allow you an easy pivot into medicham who can basically 1hko most of the things that sylveon dislikes. Add klefki/spike stacking to the mix, and you end up forcing lots of switches and lots of hazard damage (plus the huge hit incurred by witching into either of them). A couple rounds of spikes causes both of their switchins to dwindle away. Klefki's twave only helps the core.
I know that I'm basically listing off good traits, but when you reach the trashy parts in the rankings, the goal is to show that it isn't completely trashy. What has changed to even warrant it to fall to begin with?
In any case, your ridiculous hyperbole (lol bordering on D/unranked?) brings a lot of question to your experience with sylveon, but I digress.
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Rampardos is crazy strong. Like, significantly stronger than Tyranitar. Given Rampardos's speed, it obviously won't be plowing through an entire team. See where I'm going?
Fairy coverage is good, but it's also very prepared for. Heavily offensive teams struggle to switch into Hyper Voice, but other than that it's not hard to just switch Ferrothorn, Heatran or Mega Venusaur into Sylveon and set up your rocks or sludge bomb shit. The fact that Sylveon can't use HP Fire and HP Ground on the same set also bites it in the ass. It has severe coverage problems.
Again, the fact that Sylveon can't use HP Fire and Ground on the same moveset is just bad, else it'd probably be deserving of B-.
Thing is that Klefki also works well with most of the stuff in C+. Conkeldurr + Klefki is a good core too, since Klefki can shut down fairies for Conk and paralyze stuff. CB Staraptor also appreciates Klefki's ability to shut down stuff like Mega Lop and Weavile. Nidoking too. Don't see how this is a relevant argument tbh.
The main problem is, what are this set's advantages over Mega Gardy? Hits harder, has higher special bulk, Baton Pass and umm... that's it. And it doesn't take up a mega. Mega Gardy doesn't even need to switch moves and has access to Focus Miss. It just has much better coverage and utility options against stuff who cockblock Sylveon.
Baton Pass is one of Specs Sylveon's key traits that help it float in C or something, not in B-. It's just not as good as AV Meta, Entei, Rhyperior or Staraptor in my opinion.
It has always had severe competition, but nowadays the stuff in C+ seem to have more defined niches, which really hurts Sylveon. It's only there to spam Specs Hyper Voice, maybe lure one or two threats and scout. That's all it does. Defensive sets are outclassed by Clefable.
Yeah, because Mega Venu/Scizor, Ferro, Heatran, Jirachi, Chansey and Klefki don't exist?
This is the one part of your argument I immediately take issue with. The others I haven't read and thought over enough to evaluate, valid though they may or may not be.
The fallacy with your Rampardos comparison is that Sylveon does legitimately have some benefit to including it over Mega Gardevoir: besides the noted power, Sylveon does not use up the team's single Mega Slot. Rampardos and Tyranitar only compete for the team slot on the basis that they are both Rock types, so Tyranitar wins since it offers better bulk and utility to the team for the power trade off. On the other hand, I can't substitute Gardevoir for Sylveon if I'm trying to build a Fairy-Steel-Dragon Core using, say, Mega Metagross or Mega Zard X. Sylveon is a downgrade from Gardevoir overall perhaps, but unlike Rampardos, Sylveon does offer something worthwhile in exchange for those deficits.
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This is a bad comparison and you know it.. Sylveon still has usable Special bulk and defensive typing, and holds a niche of not taking a Mega slot compared to its competition. Rampardos has bad bulk to go along with its bad speed, and has no Dark typing to smack OU's common Psychic types like Tyranitar; Tyranitar hits hard enough to get the OHKOs and 2HKOs it needs, and has high bulk to go along with it, meaning TTar outclasses Rampardos in literally every set.
Okay, good, you have a bulky Steel-type that Sylveon doesn't have the right coverage for. Now let's either switch it in and get it worn down by taking multiple Hyper Voices and lack of recovery, switch it in on a Baton Pass that grants the Sylveon trainer momentum, meaning your switch was most likely useless, or switch into an easy double switch for your opponent because you most likely have only one Pokemon that can answer it, forcing your hand. Or predict that switch and have one of your mons bopped by Hyper Voice.
Poison types can't switch in, Psyshock.
As I said above, if you have a team with, say, Heatran + Ferro, one will get lured if the opponent plays smart, meaning you have your hand forced when Sylveon is out on the field, which can be easily taken advantage of.
His argument was "it doesn't need to do everything, team members exist". Klef was just his example of choice.
Yup, you got everything right here. Which is why M-Gard is A and Sylveon is B-.
meta should move up in the first place, Rhyp is only in C+ due to competition with Landog + Chomp, though I agree with Entei. Not sure about the rest of C+. And BP is not the only thing helping it float, you admitted to it yourself above.
And that's all it needs to do, just like M-Gard. M-Gard can just afford to spam Hyper Voice more than Sylveon.
Sylveon outclasses Clefable as a Specially Defensive wishpassing + cleric Fairy-type. Not much but it at least deserves a mention.
mvenu only wins if it gets a free switch + if its offensive, or if Sylveon is locked into a move not called Psyshock.
Scizor, ferro, jirachi, klefki are hit by HP Fire
Heatran, Jirachi, non-Magnet Rise Klefki are hit by HP Ground
At least Sylveon can potentially get through its checks and counters, unlike Staraptor, who just dies.
Yes, it can't run HP Ground + HP Fire, but honestly it doesn't need to.
You kinda missed the ball with your comparisons. Unlike Staraptor, it actually has the potential to take out more than 1 mon without wish/healing wish support. Unlike Entei, it requires very little support in the way of hazards. Self sustaining seems to be the right word for sylveon. Not to mention Sylveon takes advantage of the still popular SR Chomp quite nicely (both the RH and Lum variants), and turns him into a liability. Can Entei and Staraptor claim the same? Its pretty unanimous that specially based wallbreakers are more effective in the meta atm than physical so picking a different mon to compare would be better.
Youre also underselling how much of a threat specs hyper voice is. Getting a free switch with sylveon is one of the biggest momentum swingers, in which the opponent is forced to play a game of prediction. Just the threat of Hyper Voice is enough to force mons to take entry hazard damage, which is great considering how well Sylveon synergises with many hazard setters. And its not like you have 1 move slot, one of the best things about extremely powerful wallbreakers is the fact that you cant really afford to play around them, giving the sylveon user free reign to chose whatever coverage move it wants. Not to mention Sylveon has neat bulk and defensive typing which makes it able to switch in on many mons much more easily than the majority of the mons you mentioned. Sure it has its problems but in no way is it as shit as youre making out, cant see it moving any lower than it is currently.
I guess this also marks my return from hiatus
What the heck are you talking about? Did you even read what I said? Politoed is obviously a must on Rain Teams, and it defines it's playstyle. I never said that it isn't in the first place.
I can see what you mean, but Politoed is PU for a reason. It's support can't be that good, otherwise it would be in a higher tier. Picture it like this: if Politoed got a useless ability- say, Illuminate or something- it would be PU, but here it has Drizzle, so it kinda is used for its ability.
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