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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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I really don't understand how you guy's are saying "What's coming on a **+2 Blaziken?**".It sounds really stupid of you guys just assuming Blaziken will get up a Swords Dance in every scenario against every type.First of all I want to say that Swords Dance is not needed for Blaziken.It has average bulk which won't take many hits.Also it has a high recoil move "Flare Blitz".You may say "Just use HJK",but you can't really use High Jump Kick against every type.Flare Blitz + Life Orb puts Blaziken under half its HP.
tl;dr: Please stop assuming that Blaziken will be at +2 everytime.
Mega-Blaziken,Blaziken,Deoxys-D,Deoxys-S,Deoxys-N were actually unbanned at the start of Gen 6.But then banned again 2-3 weeks afterwards.
tl;dr: Please stop assuming that Blaziken will be at +2 everytime.
Mega-Blaziken,Blaziken,Deoxys-D,Deoxys-S,Deoxys-N were actually unbanned at the start of Gen 6.But then banned again 2-3 weeks afterwards.
Zarif the point is, blaziken will get at least 2-3 kills, which in most scenarios is more than enough. Furthermore blaziken has roughly the same defenses as talonflame, which had no problems getting that swords dance up and btw lost hp to recoil from brave bird and flare blitz. All i'm seeing in blaziken is a stronger version of talonflame, albeit one without priority.
This pastebin contains the not only one, but BOTH of the God sets: http://pastebin.com/gWNZNZ95
CAUTION: Use these sets at your own risk, they may or may not turn you into CTC aka Dank Meme Lord OU Jesi aka The Jesus of Pokemon.
Except Talonflame had Recovery and priority and blaziken does not. And idk what you mean by "blaz will at least get 2-3 kills", your implying that you HAVE to sack something, when in reality, you can actually prevent blaz from sweeping by making good plays, and if your saying blaz is a stronger version of talonflame by means of attack sure, dont know about speed, but nothing beats priority.
Let me formally apologize, because I was completely wrong about Ice vs Fire. I voluntarily asked for my ass to be kicked xD
Anyways, lemmie break down how a fire matchup works normally (w/o blaziken; contrary to popular belief ice can beat fire with smart plays). The motive first is to keep hazards off, which is avalugg's sole use in that match, otherwise it's useless. Heatran, Torkoal, and Infernape it should be in on to spin hazards away. From there, you want your stealth rocks set, to give fire teams pressure to switch less often. Then, you'd wanna take out Victini/Darmanitan (the common predators that would otherwise prevent a kyurem sweep). Once they are out, which Walrein helps a bunch with, or just sacking mons to rack up recoil/v create stat affects, and, boom, Kyurem can clean up.
If you look in the replay, in this case that's a different story. If the fire team has a hazards setter (which 8 times out of 10 it will), you still need avalugg to spin that away, and it'll probably be hit by a strong fire attack in the process, rendering it useless pretty much. Once that's, if Blaziken gets passed +2, it's good to wreck havoc, and Walrein can't stop it because of HJK in the mix.
Disproving my 1st theory, I can conclude now ice has no chance against fire now if Blaziken is released, it would now be a 3rd impossible basically (fighting and steel already giving ice no chances to win unless the person can't play for their lives).
Anyways, lemmie break down how a fire matchup works normally (w/o blaziken; contrary to popular belief ice can beat fire with smart plays). The motive first is to keep hazards off, which is avalugg's sole use in that match, otherwise it's useless. Heatran, Torkoal, and Infernape it should be in on to spin hazards away. From there, you want your stealth rocks set, to give fire teams pressure to switch less often. Then, you'd wanna take out Victini/Darmanitan (the common predators that would otherwise prevent a kyurem sweep). Once they are out, which Walrein helps a bunch with, or just sacking mons to rack up recoil/v create stat affects, and, boom, Kyurem can clean up.
If you look in the replay, in this case that's a different story. If the fire team has a hazards setter (which 8 times out of 10 it will), you still need avalugg to spin that away, and it'll probably be hit by a strong fire attack in the process, rendering it useless pretty much. Once that's, if Blaziken gets passed +2, it's good to wreck havoc, and Walrein can't stop it because of HJK in the mix.
Disproving my 1st theory, I can conclude now ice has no chance against fire now if Blaziken is released, it would now be a 3rd impossible basically (fighting and steel already giving ice no chances to win unless the person can't play for their lives).
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Fire vs ice always an obvious winner, unless you play dumb or the ice guy makes ballsy plays, it's gonna end the same. I don't think unbanning blaz is gonna make a difference since fire has such a high chance to win.
im not assuming that, the calc with slowbro is just because blaziken sets up on 99% of mew sets
I have won many ice vs fire games. Mainly because cloyster, mamo, kyurem, weavile and a froslass lead shits on them
blaziken would change that unfortunately
After ape and entei are gone, cloyster sweeps fire js
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I'm telling you, fire is not the hardest matchup ice has. Granted, fire will always have more of the advantage, but, its by no means impossible, it just requires you to be on your toes and play smart. Blaziken just completely ruins that, giving you close to no chance at all to win, that replay being a great example, It wasn't like I played bad, I literally had no defense against it, and you'd have to rly on sashing more mons on your team than necessary.
I agree, sashing more mons is definitely not something you want to do just to make sure Blaziken doesn't sweep your team, especially when Avalugg likely won't even find a chance to spin. As for what I said about Blaziken not affecting any matchups outside of a few, I take it back. Blaziken forces you to play differently in order to prevent a sweep. And before you argue it's as easy to deal with as other Speed Boosters are, it's not.
Wouldn't fire win 99% of the time because of Zard Y, Sun, Infernape, Scarf Victini and Darmanitan?
If you remember the reaosn why Blaziken was brought up in the first place, the reason was bc fire in general is a slow type (yes, the exceptions being Victini and Darmanitan), otherwise, Kyurem B can sweep if its scarfed (which majority of the time it is). Once you take them out, your set to clean up and take your win, I'm not saying its an easy task, but its a lot easier than attempting to check Blaziken.
I'll admit that fire has a mediocre speed type also i thought most kyurems on ice were life orb mixed 3 attacks my bad B
58.9% in fire's favor if you were curious, And, you need to consider how the entire metagame is affected, not just "relevent types." The philosophy is to make all types usable. Releasing Blaziken would affect that for ice. Rn we're analysing how much blaziken would hurt the metagame, and I provided an example that Blaziken would make ice have a 3rd (basically) impossible matchup. Grass and Bug are also affected (for bug you'd basically be forced to run mega pinsir, and decreasing the viability of mega heracross/scizor, who are also good mons on bug)
The philosophy is no single type should be overpowered.
Apologies on argueing, i have noticed that yes, blaz does sweep ice with 2 moves and its speed boost makes scarfs useless. It basically makes the type worse than right now (no im not implying ice is bad). So this looks like if 1 pokemon can sweep a whole type, the meta will in fact be unbalanced. But the philosophy is no types be broken, not all types usable.
well i'm just gonna give my opinion on what I think types have to stand up against Blaziken and what blaziken does against it
Rock: I honestly see Blaziken 6-0ing after stealth rock because all you have to do is fotter a pokemon and bring in Blaziken on things like Tyranitar or Cradily and click High Jump Kick, getting a speed boost. Then if something like Terrakion comes in all you have to do is protect, then kill terrakion albeit miss. The reason I say after stealth rock is because of how omastar on rock is sashed for shell smash, and the fact that it's a roll to kill mega diancie with a life orb adamant Blaziken. 252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 204-240 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Water: it really depends on the team structure in my opinion because water is such a diverse type that can run multiple forms of play. For standard balance with slowbro, unless you're running SD knock off Blaziken, you aren't beating it. (252+ Atk Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) For stall, or "cancer water," as some people like to call it. Blaziken can do some damage, but has trouble against Alomomola and Quagsire because of their good defensive stats. Defensive Azumarill on stall water with thick fat shuts down Blaziken with Toxic, protect, perish song, and scald. For Swift Swim water, Blaziken can do damage against the team because Swift Swim is a more offensive style of play, and after some speed boosts(let's say after 2+), it can out-speed most Swift Swim Pokemon besides Kingdra(assuming plus 2 speed boost since Kingdra's basespeed is 85 and Blazikens is 80)
Blaziken does lose to some priority users on the team such as Kabutops and Azumarill with Aqua Jet.
Flying: Blaziken would pretty much do what Darmanitan does, just much faster. Hit everything hard under the sun. Blaziken after a plus 2 would be faster than scarf thundurus-t(assuming it's on the team), which would be good since that's also a big pain for fire imo. Only big problems I see it facing would be Dragonite with extreme speed, typing in general, and multiscale, Landorus-T because of intimidate, and, Thundurus-I(Assuming it's on the team) prankster thunder-waving it. Also Gyarados could be an issue.
Grass: This doesn't really have a chance at this, the most it could do would be to mach punch it with Breloom, let it take recoil with Ferrothorn, or have mega Venusaur stall it out. Either way some Pokemon are dying.
Ice: After rocks, high jump kick and flare blitz galore(until you miss or kill your self of course)
Dragon: Dragonite, Mega Latias, Defensive Garchomp.
Dark: Well kinda depends if you're gonna set up an SD on mega Sableye or not, and if that has foul play, then you're limited. Mandibuzz also can come in on Blaziken. 252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Fairy: Damn Azumarill and Klefki stop it, but it will hurt the team hard.
Bug: Unless you're running pinsir mega, then Blaziken is guaranteed to get some kills against Bug.
Psychic: Unless you're running SD knock off Blaziken and set up on Mew turn 1, you won't be doing much because Slowbro is in your way.
Ghost: A regular 3 attacks protect set with knock off and Flare blitz could do some work.
Ground: Hippowdon can take anything Blaziken throws at it because of it's amazing physical bulk. The only problem I see is Blaziken loosing to excadrill in sand because 2+ Blaziken is slower than Excadrill because Exca's base-speed is higher.
In my opinion, Blaziken is like a more powered, more diverse version of Sharpedo that can give fire an edge and develop a new style of play for fire, but hurt the meta-game as well.
Rock: I honestly see Blaziken 6-0ing after stealth rock because all you have to do is fotter a pokemon and bring in Blaziken on things like Tyranitar or Cradily and click High Jump Kick, getting a speed boost. Then if something like Terrakion comes in all you have to do is protect, then kill terrakion albeit miss. The reason I say after stealth rock is because of how omastar on rock is sashed for shell smash, and the fact that it's a roll to kill mega diancie with a life orb adamant Blaziken. 252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 204-240 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Water: it really depends on the team structure in my opinion because water is such a diverse type that can run multiple forms of play. For standard balance with slowbro, unless you're running SD knock off Blaziken, you aren't beating it. (252+ Atk Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 150-178 (38 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) For stall, or "cancer water," as some people like to call it. Blaziken can do some damage, but has trouble against Alomomola and Quagsire because of their good defensive stats. Defensive Azumarill on stall water with thick fat shuts down Blaziken with Toxic, protect, perish song, and scald. For Swift Swim water, Blaziken can do damage against the team because Swift Swim is a more offensive style of play, and after some speed boosts(let's say after 2+), it can out-speed most Swift Swim Pokemon besides Kingdra(assuming plus 2 speed boost since Kingdra's basespeed is 85 and Blazikens is 80)
Blaziken does lose to some priority users on the team such as Kabutops and Azumarill with Aqua Jet.
Flying: Blaziken would pretty much do what Darmanitan does, just much faster. Hit everything hard under the sun. Blaziken after a plus 2 would be faster than scarf thundurus-t(assuming it's on the team), which would be good since that's also a big pain for fire imo. Only big problems I see it facing would be Dragonite with extreme speed, typing in general, and multiscale, Landorus-T because of intimidate, and, Thundurus-I(Assuming it's on the team) prankster thunder-waving it. Also Gyarados could be an issue.
Grass: This doesn't really have a chance at this, the most it could do would be to mach punch it with Breloom, let it take recoil with Ferrothorn, or have mega Venusaur stall it out. Either way some Pokemon are dying.
Ice: After rocks, high jump kick and flare blitz galore(until you miss or kill your self of course)
Dragon: Dragonite, Mega Latias, Defensive Garchomp.
Dark: Well kinda depends if you're gonna set up an SD on mega Sableye or not, and if that has foul play, then you're limited. Mandibuzz also can come in on Blaziken. 252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 153-181 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Fairy: Damn Azumarill and Klefki stop it, but it will hurt the team hard.
Bug: Unless you're running pinsir mega, then Blaziken is guaranteed to get some kills against Bug.
Psychic: Unless you're running SD knock off Blaziken and set up on Mew turn 1, you won't be doing much because Slowbro is in your way.
Ghost: A regular 3 attacks protect set with knock off and Flare blitz could do some work.
Ground: Hippowdon can take anything Blaziken throws at it because of it's amazing physical bulk. The only problem I see is Blaziken loosing to excadrill in sand because 2+ Blaziken is slower than Excadrill because Exca's base-speed is higher.
In my opinion, Blaziken is like a more powered, more diverse version of Sharpedo that can give fire an edge and develop a new style of play for fire, but hurt the meta-game as well.
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If we're trying to make it so one type isn't overpowered then fighting is just going to skyrocket, considering that blaziken's versatility in being adapted to fit what a teams lackings are, plus its high power there really isn't much to say the contrary, itll make fighting vs certain types pretty much auto wins, for example Bug, ice, rock, dark and steel. very few teams can outright wall it, Hippo cant swap in if its set up and still has to risk the keldeo and breloom laying in the back, Blaziken just creates to much pressure for many types and will ultimately bolster fighting to much
Fighting is gonna be overpowered after blaz gets unbanned tbh. Ice will never win matches once it see's it, and since everybody is gonna be so excited to use it, its not gonna be common for ice to win against fighting or fire. And with rock as well. high jump kick 6-0'ed after rocks. Its just waaayyy too much, my idea was to bring back blaz to help fire, now that i look at it, its making fire kinda broken.
A lot of the focus of Blaziken is on fire where it kind of fits in without being ridiculously storng, but alot of people neglect how it will fit on fighting the power it bring will just be to much in my opinion, the mon i see it replacing most is heracross due to their similar role as burn absorber and checks to sab and coming in on mew vs psy to deal damage, it just seems the combination of fightings fast secondary STAB mons such as keldeo, terrakion and hawlucha with the blaziken will be to much to take for most teams that may struggle already
im gonna have to disagree you there, because it doesnt seem overpowered on fighting, in fact its more balanced on fighting than on fire. Because blaziken helps out fire with 6-0'ing rock, dealing with chansey and porygon2 on normal which is annoying to fight, and gets hp ice to deal with dragons i guess. Fighting, its like you put a darmanitan and just helped out taking out taking care of the small stuff like dark with mandibuzz+sab core (which fighting can do without blaz), knock off for psychic (which wont do jack unless you can manage to pull off a swords dance which you probably might not have), and deal with bug if you couldnt already.
Im not saying this off ASSUMPTION, which you are probably doing. Dont attack me, im saying this based off evidence of proof of the replays people posted and personal experiance using blaziken, So no its not gonna be "overpowered" on fighting, the type thats its helping the most is fire.
So, I have been lurking since the blaziken talk started, and didn't want to issue an opinion on it until I had some personal experience and not just theorymon. After testing it on both a fire and fighting team (along with fighting against other blaziken teams with my regular monoteams) my testing has proven.... inconclusive.
I did have some replays where blaziken was able to come in and sweep, but these matches usually came down to a speed tie in my favor, or me hitting 2 protects in a row. Other times, rrte wouldn't be used at all, or in some matches when it was used, I would have gotten the same results using Infernape. Also, when I have to ask people for matches and I disclose that I'm using a Blaziken, the opponent will naturally bring their anti-Blaziken answers (mega-pinsir on bug, slowbro/tentacruel on water, etc.). It is unclear if I am all of a sudden running into a bunch of Blaziken checks only because the opponent knows it's there beforehand, or if there are some staple pokemon on these teams that naturally deal with it. (When I tested it vs my poison team, for instance, the Tentacruel and Mega-Venusaur that were already on the team dealt with it sufficiently, and I did not tweak any moves or EVs to do so).
So with all of the above, I am inclined to say that Blaziken may or may not be broken in this metagame, but the only way to be sure is to introduce it on the ladder for a suspect period, so that 2 things can happen:
1. Blaziken teams can be exposed to teams that aren't designed to counter it
2. Teams that have taken anti-Blaziken measures are exposed to other non-Blaziken teams to see if they made their teams worse overall by preparing for Blaziken (i.e. using sub-par sets/mons)
As it is now though, my opinion is that although Blaziken may or may not be broken, it seems to cause Fire/Fighting teams to curbstomp their good matchups even harder while only offering minor help / no help to their current difficult matchups. This reminds me of Kyu-W for ice, where it demolished types that were already gonna lose to ice (grass/flying/ground), while offering no help vs matchups that ice needed help with (fighting, etc). Kyu-W also singlehandedly could 6-0 steel teams (which Ice appreciated), but it was a case of Ice having Kyu-W plus 5 filler mons in that matchup (which mirrors Blaziken on Fire teams vs Rock).
tl;dr: I would be OK with a Blaziken suspect test, but I think I know how the vote is gonna go on that.
I did have some replays where blaziken was able to come in and sweep, but these matches usually came down to a speed tie in my favor, or me hitting 2 protects in a row. Other times, rrte wouldn't be used at all, or in some matches when it was used, I would have gotten the same results using Infernape. Also, when I have to ask people for matches and I disclose that I'm using a Blaziken, the opponent will naturally bring their anti-Blaziken answers (mega-pinsir on bug, slowbro/tentacruel on water, etc.). It is unclear if I am all of a sudden running into a bunch of Blaziken checks only because the opponent knows it's there beforehand, or if there are some staple pokemon on these teams that naturally deal with it. (When I tested it vs my poison team, for instance, the Tentacruel and Mega-Venusaur that were already on the team dealt with it sufficiently, and I did not tweak any moves or EVs to do so).
So with all of the above, I am inclined to say that Blaziken may or may not be broken in this metagame, but the only way to be sure is to introduce it on the ladder for a suspect period, so that 2 things can happen:
1. Blaziken teams can be exposed to teams that aren't designed to counter it
2. Teams that have taken anti-Blaziken measures are exposed to other non-Blaziken teams to see if they made their teams worse overall by preparing for Blaziken (i.e. using sub-par sets/mons)
As it is now though, my opinion is that although Blaziken may or may not be broken, it seems to cause Fire/Fighting teams to curbstomp their good matchups even harder while only offering minor help / no help to their current difficult matchups. This reminds me of Kyu-W for ice, where it demolished types that were already gonna lose to ice (grass/flying/ground), while offering no help vs matchups that ice needed help with (fighting, etc). Kyu-W also singlehandedly could 6-0 steel teams (which Ice appreciated), but it was a case of Ice having Kyu-W plus 5 filler mons in that matchup (which mirrors Blaziken on Fire teams vs Rock).
tl;dr: I would be OK with a Blaziken suspect test, but I think I know how the vote is gonna go on that.
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I think a lot of people are focusing on blaziken's impact vs weakness and neutral, which should indeed be discussed but lets not forget this: Blaziken can single handedly beat steel, ice and rock (could probably beat others depending on movesets but these 3 are obvious). I think this fact alone means that Blaziken should not be unbanned, because condemning 3 types to an auto loss just so that fire/fighting can have a slightly better matchup vs weakness is not fair.
^In and of itself, that is faulty logic for banning something, as teams that are weak to Lucario are going to have to use counters against it or lose. I know what you were probably going for is how Mega-Alt caused some matchups (dark) to be horrible auto-losses like what Blaziken does, but it is important to make this distinction.
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