That's true, but wisp zardx's main niche isn't really sweeping through teams as much as spreading burns and smacking shit with its powerful attacking moves, and flare blitz isn't even required on wisp zardx since u can run like a shuffler set with dtail eq anyways. Also, tw is garbage on most teams lol, I just brought it up as another option zardx can run, not as one of its primary options.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
- Status
My Stance Currently:
Keldeo A+ -> S
> In regards to Keldeo it is easily one of the most worthy Pokemon in OU in regards to being S rank. I feel that it fits the bill in terms of what it means to be S rank as it is a highly efficient Pokemon that operates as both an offensive and defensive existence. The fact that its kit is so excellent, despite its apparent lack of coverage is a testament to how great its simple combo of scald + secret sword is. Yes, Keldeo does have things that beat it, that can easily switch in and soak a hit but even these mons dislike the fact that scald is so amazing at spreading burn, that pokemon such as Azumarill have to risk getting burned just to threaten Keldeo out. It is also a key check to some of the most prominent dark spamming Pokemon such as Bisharp and Tyranitar and its mixed coverage despite being reliant solely on it spa stat is an excellent boon in breaking down stall if running the resttalk set, it is versatile not in terms of movepool but rather typing + its dual coverage. S rank!
Torn-T A+ -> S
> If we are raising Keldeo + Landorus-T to S rank, I do not see how Torn-T is not up to par with them despite others grievances with its horridly inaccurate Hurricane. I am not going to say much in regards to Torn-T as I feel everything that can be discussed has been discussed and now it just comes down to perspective rather then fact, but I believe currently it is S Rank.
Lando-T A+ -> S
> Similar to Keldeo, Landorus-Therian stands as a highly versatile Pokemon that operates both defensively and offensively in truly extraordinary ways that not only threatens but disables, sets up hazards, or sweeps. Lando-T is arguably one of the major reasons that Charizard-X is being question in regards its viability rank of S and for good reason as it pressures Zard so heavily, it pressures Excadrill, and such a large variety of pokemon due to its typing+ability+stats and movepool. I believe that it is currently an S rank Pokemon.
Keldeo A+ -> S
> In regards to Keldeo it is easily one of the most worthy Pokemon in OU in regards to being S rank. I feel that it fits the bill in terms of what it means to be S rank as it is a highly efficient Pokemon that operates as both an offensive and defensive existence. The fact that its kit is so excellent, despite its apparent lack of coverage is a testament to how great its simple combo of scald + secret sword is. Yes, Keldeo does have things that beat it, that can easily switch in and soak a hit but even these mons dislike the fact that scald is so amazing at spreading burn, that pokemon such as Azumarill have to risk getting burned just to threaten Keldeo out. It is also a key check to some of the most prominent dark spamming Pokemon such as Bisharp and Tyranitar and its mixed coverage despite being reliant solely on it spa stat is an excellent boon in breaking down stall if running the resttalk set, it is versatile not in terms of movepool but rather typing + its dual coverage. S rank!
Torn-T A+ -> S
> If we are raising Keldeo + Landorus-T to S rank, I do not see how Torn-T is not up to par with them despite others grievances with its horridly inaccurate Hurricane. I am not going to say much in regards to Torn-T as I feel everything that can be discussed has been discussed and now it just comes down to perspective rather then fact, but I believe currently it is S Rank.
Lando-T A+ -> S
> Similar to Keldeo, Landorus-Therian stands as a highly versatile Pokemon that operates both defensively and offensively in truly extraordinary ways that not only threatens but disables, sets up hazards, or sweeps. Lando-T is arguably one of the major reasons that Charizard-X is being question in regards its viability rank of S and for good reason as it pressures Zard so heavily, it pressures Excadrill, and such a large variety of pokemon due to its typing+ability+stats and movepool. I believe that it is currently an S rank Pokemon.
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I don't really see the point in bringing up flaws for Zard X such as requiring hazard removal and whatever other constant flaws it has that will never change so, to me, I think anyone bringing it up now was against Zard to S in the first place. If not, I don't really see why you should mention it considering it's been taken into account when it rose to S in the first place, and it's not like Charizard X magically gained an SR weakness in the past month or w/e
I'm just going to reply to other arguments that are being put out for it to drop. Personally, I'm neutral on it because while it is like, arguably the scariest offensive threat out there, it has a harder time doing its most common role: sweeping. Saying it's not splashable is weird considering it's not a glue mon, it's meant to sweep, and I highly doubt there is any offensive Mega set-up sweeper that is splashable. Imo, it can be fit on a decent amount of teams because offense has trouble with all these fast Electrics running around and Zard X is a great check to them and uses them as set up fodder, so at least there's a metagame trend beneficial for it. Prevalence of checks is a problem, however, it has Wisp to lure and turn most of these checks into useless garbage. A burned Azu or burned Hippo isn't of much use.
The only argument I can see for Zard to drop is the rise of Landorus-T, more specifically, defensive Lando. It's seen on a lot of teams right now as I'm sure all of you have noticed. If it's going to drop, that's probably the reason: unfavourable metagame trends.
As for Thundurus dropping, I disagree with that. I think it's still A+ material. I can't see it in the same rank as Mega Manectric, who does good against offense but falls flat against most balance/stall. Thundurus has the speed+power+Prankster Thunder Wave to threaten offense while having the power and coverage to pressure most balance/stall teams. Most people expect something standard like NP, Tbolt, HP Ice, Twave, so they send in something like Heatran or Ferrothorn which get bopped by Focus Blast. HP Flying or even Sludge Wave deal with most other checks to it like Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Celebi, Clefable, and Mega Altaria. Priority is obviously a big issue for it, and I don't exactly have anything to say that Thundurus has to mitigate it lol...
If anyone decides to reply to this post, don't expect a reply lol.
I'm just going to reply to other arguments that are being put out for it to drop. Personally, I'm neutral on it because while it is like, arguably the scariest offensive threat out there, it has a harder time doing its most common role: sweeping. Saying it's not splashable is weird considering it's not a glue mon, it's meant to sweep, and I highly doubt there is any offensive Mega set-up sweeper that is splashable. Imo, it can be fit on a decent amount of teams because offense has trouble with all these fast Electrics running around and Zard X is a great check to them and uses them as set up fodder, so at least there's a metagame trend beneficial for it. Prevalence of checks is a problem, however, it has Wisp to lure and turn most of these checks into useless garbage. A burned Azu or burned Hippo isn't of much use.
The only argument I can see for Zard to drop is the rise of Landorus-T, more specifically, defensive Lando. It's seen on a lot of teams right now as I'm sure all of you have noticed. If it's going to drop, that's probably the reason: unfavourable metagame trends.
As for Thundurus dropping, I disagree with that. I think it's still A+ material. I can't see it in the same rank as Mega Manectric, who does good against offense but falls flat against most balance/stall. Thundurus has the speed+power+Prankster Thunder Wave to threaten offense while having the power and coverage to pressure most balance/stall teams. Most people expect something standard like NP, Tbolt, HP Ice, Twave, so they send in something like Heatran or Ferrothorn which get bopped by Focus Blast. HP Flying or even Sludge Wave deal with most other checks to it like Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Celebi, Clefable, and Mega Altaria. Priority is obviously a big issue for it, and I don't exactly have anything to say that Thundurus has to mitigate it lol...
If anyone decides to reply to this post, don't expect a reply lol.
this is a nomination i've been meaning to bring up for a few weeks now, and i feel like this 'mon is definitely worthy of the rank i will be proposing through experience and a ton of tour usage as of late.
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nominating amoonguss for B+
amoonguss is a 'mon that has proven to be extremely effective in the current metagame, and this is for many good reasons. many teams, no matter the playstyle absolutely despise having a 'mon that is completely useless for a few turns, meaning that they can be taken advantage of far too easily via spore. also, it keeps a large majority of the metagame in check, while also avoiding passivity through its exceptional utility. amoonguss is also a very nice 'mon to fit on many different teams to easily abuse the amount of attributes it does have, while being extremely consistent in what it does, as shown in the replays below. furthermore, amoonguss compresses a few roles in teambuilding due to its defensive typing, meaning it can take pressure off of teammates. amoonguss is capable of taking on 'mons like cm clefable, dd mega altaria, keldeo, breloom, offensive electrics, serperior, mega lopunny, azumarill, serperior, etc. as for tour usage / success, amoonguss' usage rose quickly during as well as after olt (mainly) due to abr and high impulse's sand build that portrayed a great example of how it can be utilized adequately and perform consistently.
both players used a few different versions of the team regularly in high stakes tour matches, with amoonguss proving to be a key component; this also resulted in a few more prominent builds that utilize it 'properly' to be made. also, i personally find this 'mon being in the same ranking as stuff along the lines of mega gallade and chansey to be incredibly stupid. looking at its base stats for bulk, they are just average with a phenomenal hp stat (114), 70 def, as well as 80 spdef; what makes it stand out and perform much better than many other similar defensive options is regenerator which allows it to function as a reliable pivot, the great amount of utility it has with moves such as spore and clear smog, its incredible defensive typing allowing it to manage a multitude of special and physical threats in the tier, and the fact that it does not take up a mega slot. not to mention, it can fit on playstyles ranging from stall to more offensively inclined builds. pivots are imperative and commonly seen on teams nowadays to check relevant threats, (re-)capture momentum, as well as slow down the opponents momentum by putting them into a position they don't want to be in. despite amoonguss not having an immediate form of pivoting out through volt switch / u-turn / baton pass, it forces many offensive and defensive threats out such as keldeo, breloom, clefable, mega altaria, azumarill, mega diancie, serp, etc., enabling you to either a. double to a respective 'mon or b. use spore to immediately cripple something on the opposing team, leaving you free momentum to take advantage of the situation.
a really common argument that i've witnessed recently is people claiming amoonguss to be far too 'passive,' but this is definitely not the case; due to the amount of threats it is capable of blanket checking (ranging from offensive sweepers like dd m-alt to bulky win conditions like cm suicune or clefable), and through its excellent utility of being capable of directly putting something to sleep freely through spore (excluding some grass types but you can freely double on those anyways), as well as not allowing anything to set-up all over you- therefore compensating for the fact that its not offensively threatening. also, i'd like to specifically mention that it has gotten even better on a defensive standpoint with the usage of 'mons like breloom, keldeo, and serperior skyrocketing. furthermore, there are many different spreads that can be customized depending on your build and its requirements; mixdef | physdef | physdef inclined are all completely viable. not much to say about regenerator other than the fact that it allows you to reliably switch into the already mentioned threats throughout the game. it sports a fantastic defensive typing of grass / poison, giving teams a resist to popular offensive typings such as water, fighting, grass, fairy, and electric. overall, for the reasons said, i feel like amoonguss is definitely deserving of B+ based on its effectiveness and consistency.
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another 'mon i'd like to comment on that has previously been brought up about 2-3 pages ago is gastrodon. to put it shortly, i definitely don't agree with it being in the depths of B rank, its a 'mon that 100% deserves to be in B+.
through this post, i'll be mainly talking about its curse set as i personally feel it is most effective and 'known' among the community. despite gastrodon looking pretty mediocre, this 'mon is capable of managing many threats like all offensive electric types (lo thundurus, m-mane, raik, magnezone), bisharp, mega diancie, gengar, heatran, offensive waters like keldeo and starmie due to water absorb, lo alakazam, lo kyurem-black, and the list goes on. not to mention, gastrodon also has two fantastic defensive typings combined into one, water and ground, with an amazing ability in water absorb allowing it to reliably check and potentially set-up freely on multiple waters. curse gastrodon is really consistent what it does as a bulky win condition, being capable of blanket checking a large portion of the metagame with high usage as well; what makes it exceptionally good is the fact that it manages to counteract opposing bulky win conditions like reuniclus, suicune, and potentially clefable with the combination of curse and earthquake, the fact that it finds many set-up opportunities to win, and that it does have an exceptional (seen in replays below) match-up in most games as its checks are worn down through scald burns that it can dish off early on in the game. not only this, but gastrodon has also recently seen some tour usage where it has been proven to be effective in doing what it does consistently. i'd definitely like to see this 'mon get even more usage with ost coming up, but it is also something that deserves to be B+.
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nominating amoonguss for B+
amoonguss is a 'mon that has proven to be extremely effective in the current metagame, and this is for many good reasons. many teams, no matter the playstyle absolutely despise having a 'mon that is completely useless for a few turns, meaning that they can be taken advantage of far too easily via spore. also, it keeps a large majority of the metagame in check, while also avoiding passivity through its exceptional utility. amoonguss is also a very nice 'mon to fit on many different teams to easily abuse the amount of attributes it does have, while being extremely consistent in what it does, as shown in the replays below. furthermore, amoonguss compresses a few roles in teambuilding due to its defensive typing, meaning it can take pressure off of teammates. amoonguss is capable of taking on 'mons like cm clefable, dd mega altaria, keldeo, breloom, offensive electrics, serperior, mega lopunny, azumarill, serperior, etc. as for tour usage / success, amoonguss' usage rose quickly during as well as after olt (mainly) due to abr and high impulse's sand build that portrayed a great example of how it can be utilized adequately and perform consistently.
abr | high impulse m-lop sand:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-98869 - amoonguss does well in checking a few important members of boudouche's team, forcing him to lose momentum having no guaranteed spore switch-ins.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-98133 - amoonguss does well pivoting into 'mons throughout the match, providing abr momentum and allowing him to cripple stuff with spore.
other:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ou-54947 - amoonguss provides tsunami momentum early on in the match, keeps mega lopunny in check and prevents rotom-w from being bothersome to the rest of the build.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-100112 - two teams utilizing amoonguss. on foxlord's side, amoonguss prevents excadrill from putting a lot of strain on the build early on by crippling it, and even offers both players momentum at certain turns.
http://puu.sh/mDqy9/a53e855d20.png - shows amoonguss' consistency and its usage rising overall (olt usage stats)
http://puu.sh/mDqFK/2db450cbf6.png - tsunami / shakeitup
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-98869 - amoonguss does well in checking a few important members of boudouche's team, forcing him to lose momentum having no guaranteed spore switch-ins.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-98133 - amoonguss does well pivoting into 'mons throughout the match, providing abr momentum and allowing him to cripple stuff with spore.
other:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ou-54947 - amoonguss provides tsunami momentum early on in the match, keeps mega lopunny in check and prevents rotom-w from being bothersome to the rest of the build.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-100112 - two teams utilizing amoonguss. on foxlord's side, amoonguss prevents excadrill from putting a lot of strain on the build early on by crippling it, and even offers both players momentum at certain turns.
http://puu.sh/mDqy9/a53e855d20.png - shows amoonguss' consistency and its usage rising overall (olt usage stats)
http://puu.sh/mDqFK/2db450cbf6.png - tsunami / shakeitup
a really common argument that i've witnessed recently is people claiming amoonguss to be far too 'passive,' but this is definitely not the case; due to the amount of threats it is capable of blanket checking (ranging from offensive sweepers like dd m-alt to bulky win conditions like cm suicune or clefable), and through its excellent utility of being capable of directly putting something to sleep freely through spore (excluding some grass types but you can freely double on those anyways), as well as not allowing anything to set-up all over you- therefore compensating for the fact that its not offensively threatening. also, i'd like to specifically mention that it has gotten even better on a defensive standpoint with the usage of 'mons like breloom, keldeo, and serperior skyrocketing. furthermore, there are many different spreads that can be customized depending on your build and its requirements; mixdef | physdef | physdef inclined are all completely viable. not much to say about regenerator other than the fact that it allows you to reliably switch into the already mentioned threats throughout the game. it sports a fantastic defensive typing of grass / poison, giving teams a resist to popular offensive typings such as water, fighting, grass, fairy, and electric. overall, for the reasons said, i feel like amoonguss is definitely deserving of B+ based on its effectiveness and consistency.
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another 'mon i'd like to comment on that has previously been brought up about 2-3 pages ago is gastrodon. to put it shortly, i definitely don't agree with it being in the depths of B rank, its a 'mon that 100% deserves to be in B+.
through this post, i'll be mainly talking about its curse set as i personally feel it is most effective and 'known' among the community. despite gastrodon looking pretty mediocre, this 'mon is capable of managing many threats like all offensive electric types (lo thundurus, m-mane, raik, magnezone), bisharp, mega diancie, gengar, heatran, offensive waters like keldeo and starmie due to water absorb, lo alakazam, lo kyurem-black, and the list goes on. not to mention, gastrodon also has two fantastic defensive typings combined into one, water and ground, with an amazing ability in water absorb allowing it to reliably check and potentially set-up freely on multiple waters. curse gastrodon is really consistent what it does as a bulky win condition, being capable of blanket checking a large portion of the metagame with high usage as well; what makes it exceptionally good is the fact that it manages to counteract opposing bulky win conditions like reuniclus, suicune, and potentially clefable with the combination of curse and earthquake, the fact that it finds many set-up opportunities to win, and that it does have an exceptional (seen in replays below) match-up in most games as its checks are worn down through scald burns that it can dish off early on in the game. not only this, but gastrodon has also recently seen some tour usage where it has been proven to be effective in doing what it does consistently. i'd definitely like to see this 'mon get even more usage with ost coming up, but it is also something that deserves to be B+.
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 191-226 (44.8 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 165-195 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 188-224 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 175-207 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Gastrodon: 157-187 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
tessy's m-pinsir balanced offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-107838 - gastrodon constantly applied pressure by being capable of beating the majority of bro kappa's team and firing off scalds early on, until it managed to find a set-up opportunity to beat his opponent.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-104359 - unlike other matches, gastrodon was only brought out late-game to sweep through curse (also shows it beating cm clefable 1v1), as well as having another solid match-up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-101492 - displays gastrodon beating an opposing bulky win condition 1v1, finding an easy set-up opportunity which gave omfuga a lot of trouble, but at that point mega pinsir was capable of cleaning the match.
fookmi's crystalised revamp
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-315824880 - as you can tell from team preview, gastrodon completely 6-0's common magnezone builds, while also taking on breakers like sd weavile
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-294304619 - gastrodon's match-up in this battle was perfect, it finds free switches on a few members and proceeds to fire off scalds. not only this, it broke the opposition to the point where the main cleaner (dd landorus-t) could finish off the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-293904807 - yet another match-up where gastrodon 6-0's from team preview, finds set-up opportunities on multiple members as well.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 165-195 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 188-224 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 175-207 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Gastrodon: 157-187 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-107838 - gastrodon constantly applied pressure by being capable of beating the majority of bro kappa's team and firing off scalds early on, until it managed to find a set-up opportunity to beat his opponent.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-104359 - unlike other matches, gastrodon was only brought out late-game to sweep through curse (also shows it beating cm clefable 1v1), as well as having another solid match-up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-101492 - displays gastrodon beating an opposing bulky win condition 1v1, finding an easy set-up opportunity which gave omfuga a lot of trouble, but at that point mega pinsir was capable of cleaning the match.
fookmi's crystalised revamphttp://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-315824880 - as you can tell from team preview, gastrodon completely 6-0's common magnezone builds, while also taking on breakers like sd weavile
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-294304619 - gastrodon's match-up in this battle was perfect, it finds free switches on a few members and proceeds to fire off scalds. not only this, it broke the opposition to the point where the main cleaner (dd landorus-t) could finish off the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-293904807 - yet another match-up where gastrodon 6-0's from team preview, finds set-up opportunities on multiple members as well.
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another 'mon i'd like to comment on that has previously been brought up about 2-3 pages ago is gastrodon. to put it shortly, i definitely don't agree with it being in the depths of B rank, its a 'mon that 100% deserves to be in B+.
through this post, i'll be mainly talking about its curse set as i personally feel it is most effective and 'known' among the community. despite gastrodon looking pretty mediocre, this 'mon is capable of managing many threats like all offensive electric types (lo thundurus, m-mane, raik, magnezone), bisharp, mega diancie, gengar, heatran, offensive waters like keldeo and starmie due to water absorb, lo alakazam, lo kyurem-black, and the list goes on. not to mention, gastrodon also has two fantastic defensive typings combined into one, water and ground, with an amazing ability in water absorb allowing it to reliably check and potentially set-up freely on multiple waters. curse gastrodon is really consistent what it does as a bulky win condition, being capable of blanket checking a large portion of the metagame with high usage as well; what makes it exceptionally good is the fact that it manages to counteract opposing bulky win conditions like reuniclus, suicune, and potentially clefable with the combination of curse and earthquake, the fact that it finds many set-up opportunities to win, and that it does have an exceptional (seen in replays below) match-up in most games as its checks are worn down through scald burns that it can dish off early on in the game. not only this, but gastrodon has also recently seen some tour usage where it has been proven to be effective in doing what it does consistently. i'd definitely like to see this 'mon get even more usage with ost coming up, but it is also something that deserves to be B+.
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 191-226 (44.8 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 165-195 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 188-224 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 175-207 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Gastrodon: 157-187 (36.8 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
tessy's m-pinsir balanced offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-107838 - gastrodon constantly applied pressure by being capable of beating the majority of bro kappa's team and firing off scalds early on, until it managed to find a set-up opportunity to beat his opponent.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-104359 - unlike other matches, gastrodon was only brought out late-game to sweep through curse (also shows it beating cm clefable 1v1), as well as having another solid match-up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-101492 - displays gastrodon beating an opposing bulky win condition 1v1, finding an easy set-up opportunity which gave omfuga a lot of trouble, but at that point mega pinsir was capable of cleaning the match.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-315824880 - as you can tell from team preview, gastrodon completely 6-0's common magnezone builds, while also taking on breakers like sd weavile
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-294304619 - gastrodon's match-up in this battle was perfect, it finds free switches on a few members and proceeds to fire off scalds. not only this, it broke the opposition to the point where the main cleaner (dd landorus-t) could finish off the game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-293904807 - yet another match-up where gastrodon 6-0's from team preview, finds set-up opportunities on multiple members as well.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Gastrodon: 229-271 (53.7 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Gastrodon: 445-524 (104.4 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Gastrodon: 165-195 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (gastro loses if gar is taunt or wisp+LO, it can easily take scalds)
Thundy gets gknot, i'm sure we don't need to show that calc (it can overpower with NP+LO focus blast), likewise, heatran gets powerbeam (which is pretty popular and common)
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164 Def Gastrodon: 259-306 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (You didn't mention this one, but for a "bulky" water, this is pretty sad)
What i'm trying to say here is that you're vastly overrating gastro and its ability to blanket check shit. Without running max defense you get cleanly 2hko'd by secret sword, and keldeo is a mon you're supposed to "counter." Bish just ohkos at +2, no idea where you came up with that one (that calc wasn't even for adamant); and many other pokemon have ways either to get around it (taunt, encore, status, lures) or come very close to 2hko. Clefable narrowly avoids the 2hko's from many threats such as kyu-b and mega lopunny as well, but it gets away with it because its immune to hazards. Gastro, on the other hand, is completely vulnerable to spikes, slow as shit, and thus super dependent on recover, much like mega sab. Most of the threats you listed (mega diancie, zam) are often seen with spike support, and gastro will die to them where as other checks such as rachi or chople ttar can still check at 80% or so. In practice, you will not be checking these pokemon reliably.
It's definitely worthy of going up but you're overhyping it man.
this is a nomination i've been meaning to bring up for a few weeks now, and i feel like this 'mon is definitely worthy of the rank i will be proposing through experience and a ton of tour usage as of late.
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nominating amoonguss for B+
amoonguss is a 'mon that has proven to be extremely effective in the current metagame, and this is for many good reasons. many teams, no matter the playstyle absolutely despise having a 'mon that is completely useless for a few turns, meaning that they can be taken advantage of far too easily via spore. also, it keeps a large majority of the metagame in check, while also avoiding passivity through its exceptional utility. amoonguss is also a very nice 'mon to fit on many different teams to easily abuse the amount of attributes it does have, while being extremely consistent in what it does, as shown in the replays below. furthermore, amoonguss compresses a few roles in teambuilding due to its defensive typing, meaning it can take pressure off of teammates. amoonguss is capable of taking on 'mons like cm clefable, dd mega altaria, keldeo, breloom, offensive electrics, serperior, mega lopunny, azumarill, serperior, etc. as for tour usage / success, amoonguss' usage rose quickly during as well as after olt (mainly) due to abr and high impulse's sand build that portrayed a great example of how it can be utilized adequately and perform consistently.
both players used a few different versions of the team regularly in high stakes tour matches, with amoonguss proving to be a key component; this also resulted in a few more prominent builds that utilize it 'properly' to be made. also, i personally find this 'mon being in the same ranking as stuff along the lines of mega gallade and chansey to be incredibly stupid. looking at its base stats for bulk, they are just average with a phenomenal hp stat (114), 70 def, as well as 80 spdef; what makes it stand out and perform much better than many other similar defensive options is regenerator which allows it to function as a reliable pivot, the great amount of utility it has with moves such as spore and clear smog, its incredible defensive typing allowing it to manage a multitude of special and physical threats in the tier, and the fact that it does not take up a mega slot. not to mention, it can fit on playstyles ranging from stall to more offensively inclined builds. pivots are imperative and commonly seen on teams nowadays to check relevant threats, (re-)capture momentum, as well as slow down the opponents momentum by putting them into a position they don't want to be in. despite amoonguss not having an immediate form of pivoting out through volt switch / u-turn / baton pass, it forces many offensive and defensive threats out such as keldeo, breloom, clefable, mega altaria, azumarill, mega diancie, serp, etc., enabling you to either a. double to a respective 'mon or b. use spore to immediately cripple something on the opposing team, leaving you free momentum to take advantage of the situation.abr | high impulse m-lop sand:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-98869 - amoonguss does well in checking a few important members of boudouche's team, forcing him to lose momentum having no guaranteed spore switch-ins.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-98133 - amoonguss does well pivoting into 'mons throughout the match, providing abr momentum and allowing him to cripple stuff with spore.
other:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ou-54947 - amoonguss provides tsunami momentum early on in the match, keeps mega lopunny in check and prevents rotom-w from being bothersome to the rest of the build.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-100112 - two teams utilizing amoonguss. on foxlord's side, amoonguss prevents excadrill from putting a lot of strain on the build early on by crippling it, and even offers both players momentum at certain turns.
http://puu.sh/mDqy9/a53e855d20.png - shows amoonguss' consistency and its usage rising overall (olt usage stats)
http://puu.sh/mDqFK/2db450cbf6.png - tsunami / shakeitup
a really common argument that i've witnessed recently is people claiming amoonguss to be far too 'passive,' but this is definitely not the case; due to the amount of threats it is capable of blanket checking (ranging from offensive sweepers like dd m-alt to bulky win conditions like cm suicune or clefable), and through its excellent utility of being capable of directly putting something to sleep freely through spore (excluding some grass types but you can freely double on those anyways), as well as not allowing anything to set-up all over you- therefore compensating for the fact that its not offensively threatening. also, i'd like to specifically mention that it has gotten even better on a defensive standpoint with the usage of 'mons like breloom, keldeo, and serperior skyrocketing. furthermore, there are many different spreads that can be customized depending on your build and its requirements; mixdef | physdef | physdef inclined are all completely viable. not much to say about regenerator other than the fact that it allows you to reliably switch into the already mentioned threats throughout the game. it sports a fantastic defensive typing of grass / poison, giving teams a resist to popular offensive typings such as water, fighting, grass, fairy, and electric. overall, for the reasons said, i feel like amoonguss is definitely deserving of B+ based on its effectiveness and consistency.
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again no idea how this thing is supposed to check mega lop:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 177-208 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery ; if you've used up your spore, you can't do much of anything back.
The thing is, with amoonguss, it's a total sitting duck once its used up spore. It IS passive as all shit once spore is used, and while spore is indeed a great weapon, being passive in this meta is super punishing. Not to mention that unlike slowbro, who has slack off, amoonguss is forced out if it cannot kill. You can see this shit in action in this SPL game of Ender vs Laurel: turns 16-24 consist of keldeo setting up on amoonguss because it's too weak to stop something its supposed to counter. Once metagross, a pretty useless mon considering the matchup (msab, lanT, rachi) was sacked to sleep, amoonguss failed to pull its weight as it died to the mon it was supposed to counter. There are plenty of pokemon that will be near useless thanks to matchup in this meta; sleep isn't as crippling as it seems. Other viable examples like sharpen mdiancie, hp flying specs keld, hp flying thundy, BD knock Azu, Fire blast Altaria, and Fire Blast Lo Clef are just some of the many options the shit it should be checking runs to circumvent it.
You also mentioned that after you spore a mon, you get momentum, but it doesn't quite work like that. If you have amoonguss and you just put a latios to sleep, you could double on the predicted heatran into your keldeo. However, the opponent can just as easily predict your double and bring in something like azu instead. This is just a hypothetical scenario, so there's no need to stress the nitpicks, but you have to understand that Spore just complicates the two-way (meaning you might actually be at the short end of the stick, not the other way around) prediction game; far from buying you free momentum like u-turn or volt switch.
Trashing on amoonguss aside tho, it IS a solid check to most of the shit you mentioned and imo should be in A-, but we can take this in baby steps.
EDIT: @below I agree that the example i cited is overblown but the point is that its passive as shit after spore; there's no end to the shit that can just come in with no fear and do whatever they want (pinsir, lando-t, tran, lati, kyu-b, zam, bish, gar, hoopa, etc)
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Tbf I think this is a bad example cause I believe that Laurel should've Clear Smoged anyways when he was at the risk of losing his entire team (which he sort of did) to Keldeo. Granted I had this debate with some people on how it was "supposably" not the play cause he could've subbed but seeing as how there was 3 opportunities to Clear Smog and he tried to mind-game Ender with one I'm not quite sure what this point is suppose to express other than Laurel using a pretty mediocre team with Amoonguss as the only means to slow down Keldeo effectively. The composition of the entire team was lacking anyways and normally Amoonguss does pretty well against Keldeo.
Kind of dont care about what the "argument" is but seems silly to use examples like that when it doesnt explain the entire picture of what occurred in the match and what could've been prevented starting from even the team-builder phase.
Edit: I'm also not replying if someone does.
Landorus to S is a nomination that is pretty well justified. It has the traits that is desired from a pokemon in S Rank, capable of:
- Acting as a solid pivot
- Checking a plethora of physically oriented threats that trouble HO archetypes
- Setting up SR
- Being versatile with the array of sets that it can pull off
The key difference between Landorus and Garchomp is the fact that one counters Bisharp, while the other counters Zard X. This is a huge difference between the two, Bisharp has access to defiant which makes Landorus' intimidate useless vs it on the switch. TankChomp is OHKOed at +1 by ZardX iirc. Other than that, they all check the generic Offense threatening mons like M-Lopunny, M-Metagross, Talonflame, M-Manectric, and so on. So why should Garchomp move up if Landorus does? Because the one thing that both of them have in common is the fact that they'll always have to be supplemented by a Water-type in order to patch up the susceptibility to Bisharp/Zard. In the case of using Landorus, you'll always find it being paired with a Keldeo, while Azumarill is commonly paired with Garchomp to take on the ZardX weakness. Both pokemon also offer valuable Ice-resists so yeah, I think it's very much necessary to support Garchomp and Landorus with these two water-types. Garchomp is very versatile in its own right, it too can run 3 sets very effectively right now, and I feel that its capabilities rival Landorus'. Landorus to S for me, but only if Garchomp rises too.
Uh yeah not so subtle reminder that 1 liners are not okay. Please provide at least a couple sentences of reasoning for arguments. Apparently missed one on the past page (which I went back and deleted) but doesn't mean they're suddenly allowed.
Anyway the one liner that was just posted basically mentioned Excadrill clicking EQ against chomp switchins more freely which I think is a pretty big point. Honestly Garchomp is simply not on the level of Landorus-T in this metagame. Being a Bisharp check is nice but it's not like they're totally scarce. Lando has a better ability to blanket check physical attackers with since it allows the rest of your team to take them on better after -1 as well. Coupled with the absurd utility of U-turn or Knock Off, Lando is simply more splashable at this point. Lando is also not susceptible to Spike stacking, which makes it harder to wear down. Its Scarf is set stronger since it's less easily worn down by repeated switch-ins and has the ability to U-turn around. Double Dance is something Garchomp cannot accomplish, and I also like SD Lando more than SD Chomp from a pure balance breaking standpoint since it's more powerful and has a better typing to set up. Essentially this combination of characteristics (better movepool, typing, ability) allow it to fill more roles and makes it a more versatile and threatening mon IMO. Garchomp was at one point better than Lando but things have changed and they are no longer on the same level IMO
Anyway the one liner that was just posted basically mentioned Excadrill clicking EQ against chomp switchins more freely which I think is a pretty big point. Honestly Garchomp is simply not on the level of Landorus-T in this metagame. Being a Bisharp check is nice but it's not like they're totally scarce. Lando has a better ability to blanket check physical attackers with since it allows the rest of your team to take them on better after -1 as well. Coupled with the absurd utility of U-turn or Knock Off, Lando is simply more splashable at this point. Lando is also not susceptible to Spike stacking, which makes it harder to wear down. Its Scarf is set stronger since it's less easily worn down by repeated switch-ins and has the ability to U-turn around. Double Dance is something Garchomp cannot accomplish, and I also like SD Lando more than SD Chomp from a pure balance breaking standpoint since it's more powerful and has a better typing to set up. Essentially this combination of characteristics (better movepool, typing, ability) allow it to fill more roles and makes it a more versatile and threatening mon IMO. Garchomp was at one point better than Lando but things have changed and they are no longer on the same level IMO
Nominating Venomoth for D.
At first glance, Venomoth looks like an inferior Volcarona with the same weakness to birds. But Venomoth has two things the sun bug doesn't and those are tinted lens and sleep powder. These two things allow it to work past its checks without having to sacrifice a moveslot. At Plus one, it outspeeds anything without a scarf. (Don't run Modest because it needs to outspeed Mega Alakazam.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-320494550
Here is a replay of Venomoth sweeping a team. (Yes I know it didn't take out the chansey, but it did force the chansey into a situation where it couldn't win)
Venomoth can also be a late game savior, being able to punish a late game misplay and eliminate the opposition. Yes it needs support to work, but so do most pokemon in D.
At first glance, Venomoth looks like an inferior Volcarona with the same weakness to birds. But Venomoth has two things the sun bug doesn't and those are tinted lens and sleep powder. These two things allow it to work past its checks without having to sacrifice a moveslot. At Plus one, it outspeeds anything without a scarf. (Don't run Modest because it needs to outspeed Mega Alakazam.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-320494550
Here is a replay of Venomoth sweeping a team. (Yes I know it didn't take out the chansey, but it did force the chansey into a situation where it couldn't win)
Venomoth can also be a late game savior, being able to punish a late game misplay and eliminate the opposition. Yes it needs support to work, but so do most pokemon in D.
wanted to think about this one a bit more before making a post on it.
there was discussion for keldeo, azumarill, and tornadus-t to rise to S awhile back, and the only one that really took off in the thread was torn-t. looking at keldeo and azumarill, i saw them as 2 of the more superior A+ rank pokemon, but not necessarily S rank. i thought they stood out as great offensive glue pokemon that can fill a lot of gaps on teams, but not S rank level. recently, bludz and Albacore (i think) have talked about sorta "redefining" S rank to accommodate for pokemon like keldeo, latios, azumarill, landorus-t, garchomp, etc.. i'm not saying these pokemon are all S rank, but rather that S rank is leaning more to including these super good, meta-defining "glue" pokemon... not all of these are S rank material ofc. however, this standard hasn't been put in place yet. nonetheless, i think keldeo is a definite S rank pokemon in both the current standards & the more "keldeo-friendly" standards we may see in the future.
to get the general stuff out of the way, keldeo is an all around fantastic pokemon, capable of running a few different sets at high viability, checking many general threats in the current meta, and fitting on fatter playstyles (balance) to more offensive ones. focusing on actual meta developments, keldeo has benefited from the vast majority of recent metagame shifts and trends.
as i & others have mentioned, pursuit trappers are super common right now with pokemon like tyranitar, AV metagross, pursuit mega scizorand pursuit weavile seeing a bit more usage. keldeo doesn't only benefit from the support these trappers provide (them being capable of removing checks to keldeo like lati@s ofc), but keldeo is also one of the easiest and effective ways to gain momentum off of an opposing pursuit trapper. it directly checks all of them, thus forcing them out in almost every situation. with specs keldeo, this allows you to fire off a powerful hydro pump. with CM variants, this allows you to either sub (if you have it), boost, or go for a scald burn. with resttalk variants, this allows you to recover if necessary. i can go on, but the point is that keldeo likes the support these common pursuit trappers provide for it, and it loves their prominence because it can easily check them & gain momentum.
there are other general shifts that have benefited keldeo in addition to those pursuit trappers i mentioned (and their non-pursuit sets, too... especially for weavile, bisharp, & mega scizor), such as the prominence of bulky grounds on virtually every team (lando-t, garchomp, hippowdon), and the decline of mega altaria. in addition to these pokemon that have been affected by metagame shifts, keldeo also checks a ton more. being capable of checking all of this + general stuff like mega sableye make for a super nice offensive glue pokemon; however, keldeo isn't limited to being glue that blanket checks a ton of annoying stuff. keldeo is also a potent pokemon in it's own right, with sets that can break through a variety of playstyles. specs is capable of firing off shots that can break through it's own checks (hydro pump v. latios). scarf is capable of sweeping teams, especially with the super easy to use pursuit + spikes support Freeroamer mentioned above. cm variants (cm + 3 atks & sub + cm) are capable of breaking balance builds. this is all stuff we've known, so i won't elaborate on it too much, but it's definitely worth mentioning that keldeo isn't only an excellent general offensive glue mon, but it's also very powerful & threatening, both in battle and in the teambuilder.
i'm not gonna have a super 1-sided post because there isn't really a point in being biased with VR rankings / nominations rofl. keldeo definitely doesn't appreciate the rise of bulky grass types (amoonguss & tangrowth specifically), and choiced sets really don't like the rise of water immune mons on stall (gastrodon, seismitoad). nonetheless, keldeo is a very potent and threatening pokemon in general, but especially in current meta, and i think the pros here outweigh the cons. keldeo should rise to S.
there was discussion for keldeo, azumarill, and tornadus-t to rise to S awhile back, and the only one that really took off in the thread was torn-t. looking at keldeo and azumarill, i saw them as 2 of the more superior A+ rank pokemon, but not necessarily S rank. i thought they stood out as great offensive glue pokemon that can fill a lot of gaps on teams, but not S rank level. recently, bludz and Albacore (i think) have talked about sorta "redefining" S rank to accommodate for pokemon like keldeo, latios, azumarill, landorus-t, garchomp, etc.. i'm not saying these pokemon are all S rank, but rather that S rank is leaning more to including these super good, meta-defining "glue" pokemon... not all of these are S rank material ofc. however, this standard hasn't been put in place yet. nonetheless, i think keldeo is a definite S rank pokemon in both the current standards & the more "keldeo-friendly" standards we may see in the future.
to get the general stuff out of the way, keldeo is an all around fantastic pokemon, capable of running a few different sets at high viability, checking many general threats in the current meta, and fitting on fatter playstyles (balance) to more offensive ones. focusing on actual meta developments, keldeo has benefited from the vast majority of recent metagame shifts and trends.
as i & others have mentioned, pursuit trappers are super common right now with pokemon like tyranitar, AV metagross, pursuit mega scizorand pursuit weavile seeing a bit more usage. keldeo doesn't only benefit from the support these trappers provide (them being capable of removing checks to keldeo like lati@s ofc), but keldeo is also one of the easiest and effective ways to gain momentum off of an opposing pursuit trapper. it directly checks all of them, thus forcing them out in almost every situation. with specs keldeo, this allows you to fire off a powerful hydro pump. with CM variants, this allows you to either sub (if you have it), boost, or go for a scald burn. with resttalk variants, this allows you to recover if necessary. i can go on, but the point is that keldeo likes the support these common pursuit trappers provide for it, and it loves their prominence because it can easily check them & gain momentum.
there are other general shifts that have benefited keldeo in addition to those pursuit trappers i mentioned (and their non-pursuit sets, too... especially for weavile, bisharp, & mega scizor), such as the prominence of bulky grounds on virtually every team (lando-t, garchomp, hippowdon), and the decline of mega altaria. in addition to these pokemon that have been affected by metagame shifts, keldeo also checks a ton more. being capable of checking all of this + general stuff like mega sableye make for a super nice offensive glue pokemon; however, keldeo isn't limited to being glue that blanket checks a ton of annoying stuff. keldeo is also a potent pokemon in it's own right, with sets that can break through a variety of playstyles. specs is capable of firing off shots that can break through it's own checks (hydro pump v. latios). scarf is capable of sweeping teams, especially with the super easy to use pursuit + spikes support Freeroamer mentioned above. cm variants (cm + 3 atks & sub + cm) are capable of breaking balance builds. this is all stuff we've known, so i won't elaborate on it too much, but it's definitely worth mentioning that keldeo isn't only an excellent general offensive glue mon, but it's also very powerful & threatening, both in battle and in the teambuilder.
i'm not gonna have a super 1-sided post because there isn't really a point in being biased with VR rankings / nominations rofl. keldeo definitely doesn't appreciate the rise of bulky grass types (amoonguss & tangrowth specifically), and choiced sets really don't like the rise of water immune mons on stall (gastrodon, seismitoad). nonetheless, keldeo is a very potent and threatening pokemon in general, but especially in current meta, and i think the pros here outweigh the cons. keldeo should rise to S.
Keldeo isn't S rank. Bulky grasses are on the rise while Togekiss and Seismitoad are getting more common with this shedinja stall bs. Keldeo is probably the best A+ mon at the moment (after Hoopa-U and Chomp/Lando-T who should all go S) and is bordering S with Pursuit support, for all the reasons m00ns mentioned. But the metagame shifts aren't pushing Keldeo so far for it to be S rank. It still has all the problems it had in the past, especially since it can't outspeed base 110s and has very bad coverage moves.
I totally disagree as I feel you are focusing far to much on the prevalence of Keldeo's checks and ignoring the other aspects that make Keldeo truly top tier such as its defensive qualities. Sure Amoongus is a pain in the ass for Keldeo but all it does is force it out while still risking being burned by scald. Keldeo's defensive qualities is a large reason as to why I view Keldeo as an S Rank Pokemon for it not only performs amazingly as an offensive nuker with mixed coverage but also a
defensive/offensive check to the popular Bisharp, Tyranitar, Scizor, etc... I'd also argue that despite a proposed rise in bulky grasses, many of these Pokemon are still extraordinarily niche and do not fit on a lot of teams due to how passive they are which contrast with this exceedingly offensive meta.
>252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 178-211 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
>252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 188-222 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
>252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 175-207 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recover [hide/]
>252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 188-222 (43.5 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
>252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 175-207 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recover [hide/]
Hi. So, i generally view the Smogon forums everyday and i love the viability rankings. But i think there's a serious problem here with the nominations and the op itself to the point where i wanted to make an account and speak up.
So, first off. The rankings honestly look completely like a laundry list of your favorite toys. If i was a newer player and i looked at this, it wouldn't tell me much of anything about the metagame, completely defeating the purpose of having a viability rankings. This is supposed to be a resource for newer players and i think people have seriously forgotten that. So here's what i propose:
Define each rank. This is huge. If Clefable is S-rank, I want to understand why it has that rank. Whether is invaluable support, versatility, defensive and offensive capabilities, etc. Now that you've removed your definitions, even the people who post here a lot don't seem to know the cutoff of an A+ threat or an S threat. Currently, Latios, Landorus-T, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo are being nominated for S. It honestly just looks like you guys are posting your favorite toys, putting them on a pedestal, and asking for a higher rank.
My suggestion:
The NU viability rankings revamp made their rankings a lot more useful and beginner friendly. So im gonna base my argument around a combination their criteria with the general definitions of each rank.
Landorus-T A+ --> S
This is a nomination that is long overdue. It is easily one the most splashable mon in the tier and a threatening mon in general. The support it offers to a team is invaluable.
Threat Level: A combination of Intimidate, fantastic typing with a ground and electric immunity makes a legit offensive and defensive threat. Seriously, I get the "oh crap" moment whenever I see this pokemon in team preview. It can run circles around your team with U-turn, making it really hard to stop. It can screw over physical attackers with its intimidate ability (Ahem. Charizard X). Smack down and earthquake means that rotom-w and skarmory aren't safe switch ins. Knock off smacks Latios in the face. Its value as a stealth rock setter and pivot is invaluable (forcing switches faster that you can breathe). It can check excadrill and charizard x, devastate teams with double dance, and the possibility of a scarf set makes a player think twice before attacking. The flying type also gives it an immunity to spikes so it isn't as easy to wear down as one might think.
Effect on the Metagame: Why do electric types run hp ice? Why does tyranitar run ice beam? Why is hidden power ice an option on so many pokemon? It's because this and garchomp are omnipresent. Fact is, if there isn't an answer to landorus-t or garchomp, the team is going to struggle a lot.
Consistency: Very reliable rocks setter. Very reliable check to many physically offensive pokemon. It can work its way around of bad matchups with U-turn and its coverage moves.
Splashability: It can be a pivot, rocks setter, wallbreaker, sweeper, revenge killer. the roles this pokemon can pull off well are mind boggling which is why it fits on so many teams. Almost every team out there benefits from the presence of one of the bulky grounds garchomp or landorus-t.
This thing is absolutely S-rank because it can perform a variety of roles effectively, work around its checks and counters, be extremely reliable and consistent, and fulfill the above criteria flawlessly as an S-rank threat should.
Regarding Garchomp. This is something ill touch upon. Its arguably just as versatile as landorus-t. It can work around its checks using different moves (fire blast/toxic) or items. It's the second biggest reason pokemon run ice type moves. And nothing is more of a nuisance to U-turners and priority users than the chip damage from rocky helment and rough skin. Choice scarf, possibility of mega/mixed attacker, offensive swords dance, sub salac late game sweeper, resist berrys, etc. Where garchomp falls flat is the fact that it can get worn down more easily due to the fact that it lacks an immunity to spikes and less resistances/immunities. Landorus-t's pivoting abilities are a bit more useful. Landorus't finds more opportunities to set up due to its better typing. Intimidate and leftovers allows defensive variants to sponge physical attacks. While it is a very splashable pokemon fitting nicely to several archetypes and cores, it does stack weaknesses when teambuilding (happens often with its dragon weakness especially). For these reasons, I don't think its time for garchomp to move yet (though it should have a couple of months ago)
Landorus T is S without any doubt. Garchomp should be revisited at a later time
Keldeo Stays A+
This one is a bit more questionable. It's typing offers VERY useful resistances which helps against dark spam. Offensively, water and fighting provide fantastic coverage.
Threat Level: As i said, offers fantastic typing offensively and defensively. speed tier is pretty good. and it hits hard. Scald burns annoy the heck out of its checks. Regarding the choice sets though, i find a serious flaw. Secret Sword + Hydro Pump/Scald provide great coverage, but the problem is prediction. Often times, a pokemon will take serious damage from one move but take little from another. For example, Chansey. Takes nothing from water moves, but a ton from secret sword. Landorus-T takes a crap ton from icy wind and scald/hydro but little from secret sword. Tangrowth is 2HKO'ed by secret sword but can live through icy wind and scald. And with a choice set you have to predict really well. The calm mind set lacks immediate power. Also, the rise of bulky grass types = no bueno for our pony.
Effect on the Metagame: Great check to dark spam. Can smash through pokemon without a grass type. Many checks are hesitant to switch in due to scald burns.
Consistency: as an offensive threat, it generally performs well most of the time. But like I said, Grass type are the bane of keldeo rn and against these pokemon it does have a harder time doing its job.
Splashability: Water types provide the "glue" to several teams. The fact that you can tailor its moveset and item to fit your teams needs makes easy to fit on teams. Its great on balance and offense.
I don't think this should rise honestly. I get that its potent and can check dark types, but my main gripe with it is the rise of bulky grass types. Amoonguss, TAngrowth and Mega Venusaur are all very viable threats that im seeing more of. So, Keldeo should stay A+ instead of just hastily moving it to S.
I wanna touch on Azumarill
I think this might deserve to move to S more than keldeo does. Fairy STAB is still potent. It can lure ferrothorns and tyranitars with superpower. Choice band hits hard and forces switches. It can somewhat annoy grass types by knocking off their item or outright beat them if it's a belly drum variant. I find azu a bit more threatening due to two sets: Choice band and belly drum. It often puts me in a dilemma. Do i switch out and risk a belly drum and watch it rip through? Or do i attack and risk getting smacked by a play rough or waterfall. Choice band with the possibility of belly drum makes it a bigger threat in my eyes. I'd argue azu has better defensive typing and courtesy of its fairy typing, it can still check dark types. With a combination of its typing, wallbreaking capabilities, and versatility in belly drum, band, and assault vest (or bulky sap sipper if you're that guy), I think this should be the bigger candidate for S. But again, i don't want to be to hasty with the rise of grass types. I'd just thought I'd bring it up.
I'm going to hastily talk these mons because I have to go soon.
Latios Stay A+
Don't think this is S-rank. Defog, powerful attacks, and the other qualities make it an A+ mon. S rank is really pushing how good it is especially with dark spam being prevalent. With lure sets, you suffer from four moveslot syndrome.
Charizard X S ----> A+
This pokemon can easily rip through teams once it gets up a dragon dance. The problem? First and foremost, you need stealth rock off the field and you need heatran, azu, tyranitar, diancie, slowbro, landorus-t. etc weakened or removed. Add the fact that it is a mega, offers nothing as regular charizard, and is suspectible to status and charizard X actually requires A LOT before it can actually do anything. you will be building around it and as an S-rank threat it requires way too much support to function. Should be A+ because of the destruction it can cause at a moments notice but the meta has adapted to it enough for it to move down.
Tornadus-T Stays A+
Yes ive read the past 5 pages of tornadus-t discussion, but honestly it doesn't matter how much you glorify this pokemon. Hurricane's accuracy is a problem. A pokemon in S-rank should be consistent and reliable (its part of the criteria) and the accuracy is a problem. some supporters even admitted it costs you games. When you play pokemon, you play to win and if this really does lose games (which it does...) then it isn't S-rank. Its movepool, longitivity, pivoting and chipping abilities, and the threat of a hurricane are very solid traits that make it an A+ pokemon. There will be a time when you have to hit hurricane and if it misses, tornadus-t is the one to blame.
Mega Sableye leaning towards S
This should be the only mega in S-rank atm. The utility with this pokemon is fantastic with wisp, knock off, magic bounce and foul play for anyone who wants to set up. its a necessity on stall teams and a huge asset to balance. But problems are noticeable such as the fairy type weakness (namely clefable) and the fact that it does use up a mega slot.
I have other noms and thoughts to put up but i have to go. Sorry if i was bit rude at the beginning i just think the rankings need to tell more about the metagame and it should be beginner friendly. This is a resource for newer players, not a place where every pokemon under the sun is S-rank.
So, first off. The rankings honestly look completely like a laundry list of your favorite toys. If i was a newer player and i looked at this, it wouldn't tell me much of anything about the metagame, completely defeating the purpose of having a viability rankings. This is supposed to be a resource for newer players and i think people have seriously forgotten that. So here's what i propose:
Define each rank. This is huge. If Clefable is S-rank, I want to understand why it has that rank. Whether is invaluable support, versatility, defensive and offensive capabilities, etc. Now that you've removed your definitions, even the people who post here a lot don't seem to know the cutoff of an A+ threat or an S threat. Currently, Latios, Landorus-T, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo are being nominated for S. It honestly just looks like you guys are posting your favorite toys, putting them on a pedestal, and asking for a higher rank.
My suggestion:
The NU viability rankings revamp made their rankings a lot more useful and beginner friendly. So im gonna base my argument around a combination their criteria with the general definitions of each rank.
Landorus-T A+ --> S
This is a nomination that is long overdue. It is easily one the most splashable mon in the tier and a threatening mon in general. The support it offers to a team is invaluable.
Threat Level: A combination of Intimidate, fantastic typing with a ground and electric immunity makes a legit offensive and defensive threat. Seriously, I get the "oh crap" moment whenever I see this pokemon in team preview. It can run circles around your team with U-turn, making it really hard to stop. It can screw over physical attackers with its intimidate ability (Ahem. Charizard X). Smack down and earthquake means that rotom-w and skarmory aren't safe switch ins. Knock off smacks Latios in the face. Its value as a stealth rock setter and pivot is invaluable (forcing switches faster that you can breathe). It can check excadrill and charizard x, devastate teams with double dance, and the possibility of a scarf set makes a player think twice before attacking. The flying type also gives it an immunity to spikes so it isn't as easy to wear down as one might think.
Effect on the Metagame: Why do electric types run hp ice? Why does tyranitar run ice beam? Why is hidden power ice an option on so many pokemon? It's because this and garchomp are omnipresent. Fact is, if there isn't an answer to landorus-t or garchomp, the team is going to struggle a lot.
Consistency: Very reliable rocks setter. Very reliable check to many physically offensive pokemon. It can work its way around of bad matchups with U-turn and its coverage moves.
Splashability: It can be a pivot, rocks setter, wallbreaker, sweeper, revenge killer. the roles this pokemon can pull off well are mind boggling which is why it fits on so many teams. Almost every team out there benefits from the presence of one of the bulky grounds garchomp or landorus-t.
This thing is absolutely S-rank because it can perform a variety of roles effectively, work around its checks and counters, be extremely reliable and consistent, and fulfill the above criteria flawlessly as an S-rank threat should.
Regarding Garchomp. This is something ill touch upon. Its arguably just as versatile as landorus-t. It can work around its checks using different moves (fire blast/toxic) or items. It's the second biggest reason pokemon run ice type moves. And nothing is more of a nuisance to U-turners and priority users than the chip damage from rocky helment and rough skin. Choice scarf, possibility of mega/mixed attacker, offensive swords dance, sub salac late game sweeper, resist berrys, etc. Where garchomp falls flat is the fact that it can get worn down more easily due to the fact that it lacks an immunity to spikes and less resistances/immunities. Landorus-t's pivoting abilities are a bit more useful. Landorus't finds more opportunities to set up due to its better typing. Intimidate and leftovers allows defensive variants to sponge physical attacks. While it is a very splashable pokemon fitting nicely to several archetypes and cores, it does stack weaknesses when teambuilding (happens often with its dragon weakness especially). For these reasons, I don't think its time for garchomp to move yet (though it should have a couple of months ago)
Landorus T is S without any doubt. Garchomp should be revisited at a later time
Keldeo Stays A+
This one is a bit more questionable. It's typing offers VERY useful resistances which helps against dark spam. Offensively, water and fighting provide fantastic coverage.
Threat Level: As i said, offers fantastic typing offensively and defensively. speed tier is pretty good. and it hits hard. Scald burns annoy the heck out of its checks. Regarding the choice sets though, i find a serious flaw. Secret Sword + Hydro Pump/Scald provide great coverage, but the problem is prediction. Often times, a pokemon will take serious damage from one move but take little from another. For example, Chansey. Takes nothing from water moves, but a ton from secret sword. Landorus-T takes a crap ton from icy wind and scald/hydro but little from secret sword. Tangrowth is 2HKO'ed by secret sword but can live through icy wind and scald. And with a choice set you have to predict really well. The calm mind set lacks immediate power. Also, the rise of bulky grass types = no bueno for our pony.
Effect on the Metagame: Great check to dark spam. Can smash through pokemon without a grass type. Many checks are hesitant to switch in due to scald burns.
Consistency: as an offensive threat, it generally performs well most of the time. But like I said, Grass type are the bane of keldeo rn and against these pokemon it does have a harder time doing its job.
Splashability: Water types provide the "glue" to several teams. The fact that you can tailor its moveset and item to fit your teams needs makes easy to fit on teams. Its great on balance and offense.
I don't think this should rise honestly. I get that its potent and can check dark types, but my main gripe with it is the rise of bulky grass types. Amoonguss, TAngrowth and Mega Venusaur are all very viable threats that im seeing more of. So, Keldeo should stay A+ instead of just hastily moving it to S.
I wanna touch on Azumarill
I think this might deserve to move to S more than keldeo does. Fairy STAB is still potent. It can lure ferrothorns and tyranitars with superpower. Choice band hits hard and forces switches. It can somewhat annoy grass types by knocking off their item or outright beat them if it's a belly drum variant. I find azu a bit more threatening due to two sets: Choice band and belly drum. It often puts me in a dilemma. Do i switch out and risk a belly drum and watch it rip through? Or do i attack and risk getting smacked by a play rough or waterfall. Choice band with the possibility of belly drum makes it a bigger threat in my eyes. I'd argue azu has better defensive typing and courtesy of its fairy typing, it can still check dark types. With a combination of its typing, wallbreaking capabilities, and versatility in belly drum, band, and assault vest (or bulky sap sipper if you're that guy), I think this should be the bigger candidate for S. But again, i don't want to be to hasty with the rise of grass types. I'd just thought I'd bring it up.
I'm going to hastily talk these mons because I have to go soon.
Latios Stay A+
Don't think this is S-rank. Defog, powerful attacks, and the other qualities make it an A+ mon. S rank is really pushing how good it is especially with dark spam being prevalent. With lure sets, you suffer from four moveslot syndrome.
Charizard X S ----> A+
This pokemon can easily rip through teams once it gets up a dragon dance. The problem? First and foremost, you need stealth rock off the field and you need heatran, azu, tyranitar, diancie, slowbro, landorus-t. etc weakened or removed. Add the fact that it is a mega, offers nothing as regular charizard, and is suspectible to status and charizard X actually requires A LOT before it can actually do anything. you will be building around it and as an S-rank threat it requires way too much support to function. Should be A+ because of the destruction it can cause at a moments notice but the meta has adapted to it enough for it to move down.
Tornadus-T Stays A+
Yes ive read the past 5 pages of tornadus-t discussion, but honestly it doesn't matter how much you glorify this pokemon. Hurricane's accuracy is a problem. A pokemon in S-rank should be consistent and reliable (its part of the criteria) and the accuracy is a problem. some supporters even admitted it costs you games. When you play pokemon, you play to win and if this really does lose games (which it does...) then it isn't S-rank. Its movepool, longitivity, pivoting and chipping abilities, and the threat of a hurricane are very solid traits that make it an A+ pokemon. There will be a time when you have to hit hurricane and if it misses, tornadus-t is the one to blame.
Mega Sableye leaning towards S
This should be the only mega in S-rank atm. The utility with this pokemon is fantastic with wisp, knock off, magic bounce and foul play for anyone who wants to set up. its a necessity on stall teams and a huge asset to balance. But problems are noticeable such as the fairy type weakness (namely clefable) and the fact that it does use up a mega slot.
I have other noms and thoughts to put up but i have to go. Sorry if i was bit rude at the beginning i just think the rankings need to tell more about the metagame and it should be beginner friendly. This is a resource for newer players, not a place where every pokemon under the sun is S-rank.
This has been discussed several times before and rank definitions were removed because they are frankly arbitrary and people just use them as some sort of sole basis for an argument. Definitions of rankings will almost never have a positive impact and will most likely just have a negative impact, in terms of producing arguments that appear to have a base but really don't outside of extremely generalized and vague standards.
Edit: I just looked at the NU rankings and while there is some sort of criteria under the OP, the posts in the thread generally look the same as any other VR thread...
honestly. removing definitions looks like it did more harm than good because now people have no idea what the cutoff is for S rank. now we have 5 mons nominated for S and to me, only landorus-t is 100% S.
again. this is the biggie: this is a resource for beginners. view the op from a beginner's standpoint. to me, it tells me nothing about the metagame. even to seasoned players it looks like they struggle to grasp what makes an S rank pokemon cuz we're nominating stuff like latios, garchomp and tornadus-t which have very noticeable problems for S rank threats. heck i even saw a nom for mega scizor.
NU's viability rankings offers more help to newer players because it shows why a pokemon is ranked where it is and why they should be used whenever applicable and that's the goal of any viability thread. just my two cents
Let's just look at some of these NU standards:
They don't really provide anything that can't fall under this "favorite toys" thing you talk about. Disjunctions second post more or less outlines questions that the council takes into consideration, but again arbitrary and there's not anything quantifiable about it by any stretch. Based on the above rank standards I could easily make some kind of an argument that Landorus-T is easily A+ and that Latios is far and away S, and I wouldn't be wrong because again, they're very vague and don't hold any quantifiable value. The fact is that Pokemon is so multidimensional, when it comes to looking at where things rank relative to each other, that whatever kind of arbitrary standards you put in place it will never represent or conform to the actual rankings to the point where it legitimizes those definitions as helpful.
And lol lets not assume every nom made here is legitimate aka Mega Scizor to S
it can fit into a variety of teams, is unpredictable, checks common threats, and can play around its checks with a well timed u turn. it is the best bully ground type in the tier and almost every team can benefit.
pivot, wallbreaker, sweeper, entry hazard setter, etc. literally one of the most versatile and splashable pokemon in tier. the stuff it provides is invaluable.
im gonna guess the main gripes people have with this pokemon is the water and ice weakness and the fact that it gets worn down rather easily. the first one isn't that much of a biggie imo because every mon has its flaws. even your glorified clefable will get smacked down with a steel type (except for scizor i guess) and it can't get past heatran to save its life. you will need teammates to deal with stuff like this. for landorus-t it isnt hard to slap on a water type to your team which are perfectly viable and splashable in their own ways. azu, keldeo, take your pick. and many of these checks/switchins can be played around with a well timed u-turn.
on the topic of being worn down. unlike chomp, you can run leftovers. furthermore, it does have a flying type, meaning a spikes immunity. two defensive boons, intimidate, plethora of resistances. yes, i am aware that it can be statused and checked. yes i know its weaknesses are abundant. but honestly, any weaknesses are so easily to account for with other teammates and u turn and the things it brings to the table are simply so valuable deserves a spot on most teams.
tbh, i find it quite even with clefable. its arguably more splashable and versatile. just as reliable. and has the moves to get past its checks.
About the viability rankings. People who view them should get the grasp on the mon's strength based on it's ranking when compared to other ranked mons. OU doesn't even have definitive top dogs like it used to so it becomes hard to tell which mons are actually the best in the meta. The current S ranks aren't even that much better than many of the A+ ranks as the tier has simply adapted to all major threats and with no significant meta changes it becomes harder to stand out. The viability rankings are just trying to catch on what's popular on high ladder/tournaments so the rankings are relatively transparent and not meant to be set in stone. I don't particularly care wether the mons in discussion are A+ or S, for all I care the they might as well drop S rank altogether but it is much simpler to adjust the rankings to reflect which mons work best at the moment.
What about instead of putting definitions to the ranks themselves we instead put some brief descriptions under the most relevant Pokemon? Maybe a short description to illustrate its cons and its pros, so that people can understand what the Pokemon is capable or isn't capable to do and as such can understand why that Pokemon is in that specific rank. Basically something like this:
Pros: Has Intimidate to blanket check physical threats, has access to support moves like Knock Off and Stealth Rock, can pivot with U-Turn, has multiple sets ranging from Scarf to DD.
Cons: Lacks recovery outside of Leftovers, susceptible to status, has problems with bulky Ground-types.
Cons: Lacks recovery outside of Leftovers, susceptible to status, has problems with bulky Ground-types.
What about instead of putting definitions to the ranks themselves we instead put some brief descriptions under the most relevant Pokemon? Maybe a short description to illustrate its cons and its pros, so that people can understand what the Pokemon is capable or isn't capable to do and as such can understand why that Pokemon is in that specific rank. Basically something like this:
Landorus-TIt may not be completely accurate, but this is more or less the idea. That should allow new players to better understand how a Pokemon works, as well as allow people to better gauge the potential of a Pokemon, allowing it to get a more accurate ranking. It may be a long and hard work to go through all of this hassle, but it may be worth it.Pros: Has Intimidate to blanket check physical threats, has access to support moves like Knock Off and Stealth Rock, can pivot with U-Turn, has multiple sets ranging from Scarf to DD.
Cons: Lacks recovery outside of Leftovers, susceptible to status, has problems with bulky Ground-types.
Idk if that's a legitamite way to approach this. but i stand firm on the fact that the rankings need some sort of a revamp. This is a resource for newer players (can't stress this enough). meaning a laundry list of inflated subranks will tell the player nothing. i do see the cons of having definitions; but at the same time, i see even more cons with not having definitions namely for beginners. it should be widely understood that the mons in S rank bring more offensive and/or defensive assets to a team, can run very effective sets, are more splashable and threatening than those in A rank and B rank. a laundry list of mons don't provide that esp. for newer players
There's nothing inflated about the subranks; and there's nothing wrong with them having lots of pokemon. It just tells you that in the current meta, there are a lot of pokemon that are about as good as each other, and there's no reason for us to change the viability thread in order to reflect anything other than accuracy.
Besides, the definitions were removed mostly because people would base their entire argument around it, which the ranking team didn't really like. All you really need to know is what you pointed out yourself: in general, shit in higher ranks is better than shit in lower ranks, whether they excel in splashability, offensive assets, defensive assets, etc doesnt' really matter; they're better and that's that, and having ranks at all reflects that adequately enough for newer players
Instead, something smarter to base your argument around would be to compare the pokemon in question to other pokemon in the same rank and use that as grounds to lower or raise rankings.
EDIT: gamer boy nah, at that point the difference between A(alpha) or A(beta) would be too small and would be extremely arbitrary, just unnecessarily complicates things further.
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^ squirtletheturtle that post from Srn sums it up on why the ranking team at the time removed the ranking definitions. I don't know if you've been lurking on the forums or just got a new account but he outlined some simple reasons on why it was an issue in the first place and from a ranking team perspective arguments would ride on this and would be poor in quality. I dumbed down the definitions to Pre-K level and still people would try to use them to justify an argument. It doesn't really change the fact that playing the game itself is the best resource you will have and this in combination with other tips offered throughout the forum and by primarily OU players will foster results. You shouldn't be using this thread by itself as your only resource in the first place.
This was just a passing thought, but would splitting A into five ranks (α, β, γ, δ and ε - although it could very easily be numbered 1-5 as well) like they do in the BW thread as opposed to the three that we currently have been considered? There are now so many 'mons in the A ranks (the only one that isn't particularly full imo is A-) that it is very clear that not everything within each sub-rank is equally viable anymore (e.g. Garchomp and Keldeo are high A+ wheras Hoopa-U and Thundurus are low A+ (although tbh Hoopa-U should be A in the current meta imo anyway, but that's a post for another day)), and it would be a good way to make each of the A sub-ranks not look so... well... full. Quite frankly having 20 pokemon alone in A+ feels kinda ridiculous considering that there is a visible gradient in terms of viability without even leaving the sub-rank. While misleading isn't the right word in this scenario, it feels really weird to have certain Pokemon grouped together despite there being a visible difference in viability among said 'mons. Part of the issue is that there are a handful of Pokemon which are definitely better or worse than most of the stuff in their rank but are blatantly the opposite with the 'mons in its other potential rank (primarily thinking of Starmie, Jirachi and Rotom-W here, although there are a few others as well), and I think this kind of system would part of this slight issue.
Of course, this is just a proposal and honestly wouldn't impact people all that much whether it gets implemented or not (which is why I won't try to defend or argue for it beyond this post), but imo it is something to consider due to the sheer versatility/de-centralised nature of the OU metagame as it stands in combination with the visible gradient of viability within the A sub-ranks. The large number of high-viability Pokemon shows that this metagame is very varied in terms of both viable playstyles/strategies and viable options, which is why I think that dropping a load of stuff from A isn't a good idea and is part of why I feel that having 5 sub-ranks is a better potential solution dropping a bunch of stuff is.
Of course, this is just a proposal and honestly wouldn't impact people all that much whether it gets implemented or not (which is why I won't try to defend or argue for it beyond this post), but imo it is something to consider due to the sheer versatility/de-centralised nature of the OU metagame as it stands in combination with the visible gradient of viability within the A sub-ranks. The large number of high-viability Pokemon shows that this metagame is very varied in terms of both viable playstyles/strategies and viable options, which is why I think that dropping a load of stuff from A isn't a good idea and is part of why I feel that having 5 sub-ranks is a better potential solution dropping a bunch of stuff is.
To answer your question, ive been "lurking" on the forums almost everyday as a non member because generally find viability rankings, teambuilding workshops, and such pretty interesting. its also entertaining to read the really stupid nominations once in a while lol.
Regarding the matter on definitions, i only wanted to offer a suggestion because i noticed the past 8 pages of discussion was just a lot of bumbling noms for S. i figured, if the cutoff was a bit more clear there would be less of this. but this was just my two cents, just wanted to offer a suggestion.
Moving on, here are some brief noms i want to make (im busy today so apologies in advance if these seem a bit curt)
Excadrill A+ ---> A
i know the sand rush sweeper set is really deadly. but here are reasons why i think it should move down. First and foremost, Landorus-T. it being the most used mon in the tier and the fact that it is for the most part a stop to most variants. Priority users, Rotom-Wash also still pose a threat. second, it's contigent on tyranitar, meaning that it requires more support to function the mons in A+ (tyranitar and exca should be in the same rank)
Hoopa-U A+ to A
i seriously wonder why on earth this thing was S rank when it was first released. anyway...this is undoubtedly the best wallbreaker in the tier. 0 switchins, ridiculous dual attacking sets, you name it. but its flaws are just too big to fit an A+ mon. the typing gives it no resistances, a crippling weakness (+bad defense stat), and low speed means it can easily be revenge killed. and it isnt like u-turn and priority is rare either. i generally dont find it above the wallbreakers in A rank anyway (kyurem-b, m gard, and m zard y).
Mega Venusaur A ---> A+
i think this mon has gotten better as an anti meta threat with its many resistances proving to be huge assets to several teams. Water, grass, electric, fairy, fighting resistances are pretty good to have in the meta. it offers quite a bit as a mega and bulky grass types are becoming quite potent, and i find it does its job just as reliably as the mons in A+
Jirachi A- ----> A
the main gripe people seem to have with this pokemon is its lack of power for the scarf set, and its weakness to dark. but i find that these flaws are made up for with its versatility. its moveset can easily be tweaked to fit the team's needs. ice punch for lando and chomp, zen headbutt for fighting/poison types, iron head flinching causing rate quits, fire punch for steels, and uturn to play around stuff it can't beat. on the supportive side, it gets rocks, wish, body slam for paralysis support, and healing wish. also, its one of the best checks to fairy types. while it is rather weak, it is still splashable, versatile, and has ways to dance around its checks and i think that makes it better than A-
I saw Mew getting a lot of flak but i think A- is fine for it. it is pretty versatile in its choices. defog and stallbreaker sets are decent enough for A-. you can use colbur berry uturn/wisp to lure and kill hoopa u or cripple dark types. offensive lures are ok.
Something else i want to touch upon is quagsire moving down. charizard X isnt so top tier anymore, so quagsire's niche just shrunk. checking scizor, altaria, and belly drum azu is about as niche as the mons in B- rank. i find gastrodon a bit better at checking electrics due to its higher special defense. ill just leave that thought.
Regarding the slate:
M-aerodactyl A- ---> B+
this pokemon is kinda underwhelming for a mega evolution. it suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome and weaknesses to common priority moves. Slowbro and Garchomp are pretty prevalent as well.. too much of an opportunity cost for an A- rank threat
Likewise, Mega Heracross should move down as well because of the huge amount of opportunity cost and the fact that it needs a lot of support to function than mons in B+ (unaware clef, lando, scald users, talonflame, alakazam, faster mons, fire types and *insert long list* all cause problems for it). it hits really hard....and that's about it. there isn't much of a reason to rank it above victini in terms of physical wallbreaker.
Amoonguss and Tangrowth should move up to B+ (id argue even A-).
Tangrowth because bulky grounds are pretty prevalent and its an all in one check to them, water types, and electric types. its got a pretty good movepool too. eq slugs heatran in its underbelly, knock off threats the lati twins, and leaf storm threatens water and ground types. Amoonguss is similar but more supportive and has the poison typing to check fighting and fairies. main argument i see against the mushroom is how passive it is. i generally dont think its that passive because it has options like clear smog to prevent set ups and stun spore to cripple mons that could potentially break through it. and if you're that guy...there's foul play? lol. Regenerator is a sick ability too.
Question: I want to nom the pokemon on the blacklist to move down bc it has almost no niche and is severely outclassed. is that cool? cuz if i remember correctly, numskulls were nominating it to move up which is why it was blacklisted.
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