Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[kek123]

Amoogus B+ -> A-
i think amoogus should be A- because its one of the only spore uses thats sustainable and countering two S ranks mons make it pretty good along lots of synergy with popular mons in the meta right now like Torn-t and keldeo , think this meta really suits amoongus since there is so much offence being able to pivot in and out vs things like breloom and lopunny is really helpful also no have to use recovery move in such an offensive meta is really helpful i think this meta really suit amoonus at the moment and becuase of this i think it worthy of A- , the decrease in usage of Mega venu is also verry good for amoongus since it countered by it extreamly hard. over all pivots like amoongus are really good RN so i think it deserves to go up

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Amoongus B+ -> A-
It is great defensive glue and in combination with slowbro which tanks those nasty firetypes for it it is a great pain to deal with. Great Typing, good stats and supreme ability (regenerator in this fast paced meta is god) and decent synergy with current playstyles (Sand, Dark) + metagames trends help it. Sands omnipresence in this meta is Venu's bane and the increase of breelom usage is great for it aswell. It stops most Keldeo sets for good which is awesome, given that Keldeo is on like 2/3 teams now.

However, once sleep clause is in effect it is fairly passive and giving free turns always sucks. If not for this flaw I'd instantly say yes to A- but free turns in this meta suck more than ever.

 

[SketchUp]

No way Amoonguss is A-. Do you really think it is only 1 subrank worse than Mega Venusaur? Its damage output is so low that every steel type without a 4x fire weakness gets a free switch in and because for some reason Foul Play isn't a thing according to both on the analysis and the usage stats, common pokemon in this metagame such as Jirachi, Torn-T and Latios also get a free invitation to do their job in front of Amoonguss' face. It moved to B+ like a month ago and nothing positive has changed for Amoonguss (Scarf Jirachi and Alakazam hype made it even worse probably). I don't think you can use the exact same arguments that made it B+ to nominate it to A- when it didn't even improve. Definitely not A- worthy.

 

[nameless90]

No way Amoonguss is A-. Do you really think it is only 1 subrank worse than Mega Venusaur? Its damage output is so low that every steel type without a 4x fire weakness gets a free switch in and because for some reason Foul Play isn't a thing according to both on the analysis and the usage stats, common pokemon in this metagame such as Jirachi, Torn-T and Latios also get a free invitation to do their job in front of Amoonguss' face. It moved to B+ like a month ago and nothing positive has changed for Amoonguss (Scarf Jirachi and Alakazam hype made it even worse probably). I don't think you can use the exact same arguments that made it B+ to nominate it to A- when it didn't even improve. Definitely not A- worthy.

Agree perfectly with this because Poison / Grass is average both defensively and offensively.

On the defensive side:

• Regenerator with that HP stat is huge but being weak to 4 common/used attacking types really hurts considering the middling stats of the mushroom (bar HP).
• Spore is also great, but when you use it you remain with 3 moveslots available ===> the opponent will play around it with a double switch or even without: Amoongoos is really lacking in the SpA department.
• Clear Smog is good towards set-up sweepers, but it has such a low base power that is often overshadowed by Sludge Bomb with that good poison chance.

On the offensive side:

• Amoonguss hasn't the offensive prowess of Mega Venusaur which can even go mixed. It is a case of low stats in the attacking deparment which forces Amoongos to be a bulky pivot which often is a sitting duck before being overwhelmed by the opponent.

===> Amoongos is fine in B+, in my opinion

 

[Alfalfa]

Agree perfectly with this because Poison / Grass is average both defensively and offensively.

On the defensive side:

• Regenerator with that HP stat is huge but being weak to 4 common/used attacking types really hurts considering the middling stats of the mushroom (bar HP).

Well, Amoonguss is not being ranked on the strengths and weaknesses of its typing alone. Considering that most of the mons Amoonguss are switching into do not carry super effective coverage that hits it hard enough, being weak to these typings does not dissuade Amoonguss from being used to switch into mons like Mega Lopunny, Azumarill, Keldeo, Serperior, Breloom, and the like. While most of these mons possess means to break through Amoonguss, they, with the exception of Serperior (which loses to Amoonguss anyways), usually do not run these means to break through it. Mons like Mega Pinsir, Mega Alakazam, Torn-T, and Kyurem-B are all capable of exploiting Amoonguss' weaknesses, but Amoonguss is capable of getting away with pivoting out with Regenerator into a mon that can check these threats to begin with; that is particularly why Amoonguss is viable in the first place. I have no opinion on Amoonguss' ranking (though I will admit placing it a rank below Mega Venusaur is pushing it), but you are not looking at this the right way.

 

[nameless90]

Well, Amoonguss is not being ranked on the strengths and weaknesses of its typing alone. Considering that most of the mons Amoonguss are switching into do not carry super effective coverage that hits it hard enough, being weak to these typings does not dissuade Amoonguss from being used to switch into mons like Mega Lopunny, Azumarill, Keldeo, Serperior, Breloom, and the like. While most of these mons possess means to break through Amoonguss, they, with the exception of Serperior (which loses to Amoonguss anyways), usually do not run these means to break through it. Mons like Mega Pinsir, Mega Alakazam, Torn-T, and Kyurem-B are all capable of exploiting Amoonguss' weaknesses, but Amoonguss is capable of getting away with pivoting out with Regenerator into a mon that can check these threats to begin with; that is particularly why Amoonguss is viable in the first place. I have no opinion on Amoonguss' ranking (though I will admit placing it a rank below Mega Venusaur is pushing it), but you are not looking at this the right way.

Mega Lopunny
Azumarill has some viable ways to deal with Poison / Grass types (look here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...25-defensive-amoonguss-voting.3548442/page-33) i.e. Belly Drum+Knock Off which isn't even that niche.
Amoonguss is not being ranked on the strengths and weaknesses of its typing alone, but the fact it is weak -and not neutral- to Ice and Fire like its Mega counterpart means it is forced to switch out very often with a subpar Spe which forces the mushroom to stomach an attack. Thanks to Game Freak, the mushrooms has Regenerator as ability (plus Black Sludge) which redeems it, but the fact still stands: a low Spe paired with common weaknesses and a middling offensive typing (Grass and Poison moves have plenty resist without even considering them when teambuilding).
Not only that, but Amoonguss is a pivot ===> the need to switch often means you have to take the hazards damage + stomach the incoming attack thanks to its low Spe and -if it is still alive- doing something useful. Then the mushroom has to switch if you want to use it later in the match, thus losing momentum. The need to remove hazards leads us to pair it with a defogger/spinner, thus making our plays predictable (the same problems holding Mega Venusaur from being an A+ monster).

====> In my opinion this reflect the ranking of Amoonguss: strong, useful, but often lacks power behind its moves and lacks even actual (=not numerical) bulk or Spe to make up for this. At least, Mega Venusaur has 80 base Spe which is enough to outspeed something (this helps it to preserve some HP) and Thick Fat allows it to check even more threats + its good offensive prowess. All these traits allow Venusaur to use better Giga Drain to compensate the lack of Regenerator and, in general, to be an A threat.

====> That's why -in my opinion- Mega Venusaur is A whereas Amoonguss is fine in B+. Two more weaknesses and low Spe or numerical bulk reflects the two sub-ranks which divided this two monsters.

 

[Alfalfa]

.

Azumarill has some viable ways to deal with Poison / Grass types (look here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...25-defensive-amoonguss-voting.3548442/page-33) i.e. Belly Drum+Knock Off which isn't even that niche.

Losing to Belly Drum + Knock Off is unfortunate, but Amoonguss beats every other relevant variant of Azumarill except for possibly Banded Return, but such is not common enough to be remotely relevant.

Amoonguss is not being ranked on the strengths and weaknesses of its typing alone, but the fact it is weak -and not neutral- to Ice and Fire like its Mega counterpart means it is forced to switch out very often with a subpar Spe which forces the mushroom to stomach an attack.

Amoonguss' weaknesses do not deter it from pivoting into most mons it can check. You cite Amoonguss' weaknesses to Fire, Ice, and Flying-type attacks, but these weaknesses do not deter it from switching into the mons it is supposed to pivot into.

Not only that, but Amoonguss is a pivot ===> the need to switch often means you have to take the hazards damage + stomach the incoming attack thanks to its low Spe and -if it is still alive- doing something useful. Then the mushroom has to switch if you want to use it later in the match, thus losing momentum. The need to remove hazards leads us to pair it with a defogger/spinner, thus making our plays predictable (the same problems holding Mega Venusaur from being an A+ monster).

Most teams that Amoonguss fit on are teams that want to pack hazard removal to begin with. Also, Amoonguss is meant to be used to stomach attacks. Just not strong Fire, Ice, or Flying attacks; it is meant to stomach attacks from Pokemon that have issues breaking through it with their STABs or weak coverage attacks; that is how any defensive Pokemon works. Amoonguss' strengths lie in being able to switch out, for that is how a defensive Pokemon with Regenerator is supposed to work.

Mega Venusaur's own issues are an entirely different story. Vulnerability to hazards is one of those reasons due to such vulnerabilities eating into its natural bulk moreso than other defensive mons, but such discussion is not meant for here.

Also Amoonguss rose to B+ even with all of these flaws that you mentioned being problematic for it. It is only going to be prevented from rising to A- rank if metagame changes make Pokemon that can exploit those weaknesses more common.

 

[WhiteQueen]

Mega Venusaur from A -> A+

This guy is a monster. Venu has 5 useful resistances, and its ability eliminates 2 of its weaknesses, leaving it only weak to flying and psychic. Furthermore venusaur has access to synthesis, which combined with great bulk makes it incredibly difficult to KO for unprepared builds. It can take on some of OU's top threats like Keldeo, Azumarill, Clefable, and more. It's a very low risk high reward mega which is easy to support due to its limited weaknesses and plentiful resistances. It fits on stall, balance, and bulky offense builds well and is a top pick for each. Venusaur also has access to good utility in sleep powder and leech seed, making it very annoying for teams to deal with.

Mega Venusaur is in its rightful spot, at A. While it's one of the best blanket checks to a lot of threats, it's also set up bait to plenty of others. Hidden Power Fire does nothing but tickle Sp.Def Skarmory, as Skarmory can easily lay down Spikes against it and then brush off any damage with Roost. Synthesis' low PP coupled with its unreliability (due to Sand) and MVenusaur's weakness to Scald burn and a lack of passive recovery, Mega Venusaur really isn't that difficult to wear down. Being weak to Psychic doesn't help either since Latios is all over the place. Same with Mega Gardevoir, Medicham, and Alakazam. Oh, don't forget Talonflame and Heatean either.

With that said, it is probably one of the best (or the best) checks to Keldeo, Breloom, Azumarill, etc. as you mentioned. It's not on the same level at those A+ Pokemon.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Yeah i agree with that. Mega venu honestly makes for a solid overall offensive/defensive tank thanks to its typing thick fat and all but at the same time tornadus-T is sitting up in s rank and is probably one of the biggest threats in the tier. Torn literally cock blocks every mega venu set bar some weird sleep powder set. not to mention you got stuff like talon and spD skarm and a mired of other flying types that shut down venu completely. Its Really hard to take out but at the same time stuff like SD landot/Sd garchomp are really popular and they can with ease overpower and weaken mega venu. while it does stop azu and keldeo i wouldent go as far as to say it stops clef because well...I think we all have seen clefable bs its way past mega venu and opposing heatran. Mag trap tran is also another threat to mega venu as well actually. I feel like A is just fine but A+ in a meta where Tornadus is roaming left and right mega venusaur is not a A+ mon.

 

[bludz]

TDK brought up Alomomola to B- (woops typoed at first) as a potential move, citing Zapdos as a pokemon that isn't particularly more viable. I'm not sure how I feel about it but I think there's merit to this argument. Alomomola is pretty solid for a stallmon, and it helps that SubCM Keldeo (one of the former biggest threats to stall, and a mon that sets up on Alomo easily) is basically not used now. Many semistalls can rely on things without reliable recovery and having a solid wishpasser is pretty imperative to that.

Anyway guess what I wanna know is your guys' thoughts on this. Obvious traits aside, what analysis would bring you to either conclusion (rise or stay)?

 

[BlazeLatias]

Honestly i kind of want to touch up on zapdos. I find it as a really medicore defogger although it does beat scizor and bish which is unique although mandi can also do that i guess. Offensively Zapdos has nothing bar a immunity to ground over another Electric type in the tier known as mega manectric. Theres also Thundy which is overall a stronger offensive electric type in the tier despite not having as much bulk as zapdos has. I wouldent go as far to say zapdos is unviable because its typing makes it a alright defogger but i do think its really medicore at that. Alo is pretty solid right now like bludz says sub cm keldeo is pretty uncommon right now in fact i can only think of one team that actually uses it. But seriously its really lackluster compared to keldeo's Life orb and specs set simply as they wallbreak much better then the sub cm set stallbreaks right now because of stall having amoongus and tangrowth more as well as mega latias which is the bane of every keldeo. With that said alo is really effective because of the rise of those 3 pokemon so a rise seems pretty fair in that regard. Also Alo is really nice at passing meaty wishes which is overall really cool.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Alo can rise. It's a decent stop to Keldeo and Wish + tons of HP + Regenerator are awesome in combination. It sure keeps its team alive for quite a while. Not much more to say honestly.

 

[Darkreaper]

I'm just going to give my opinion on the current discussion points. Feel free to disagree with me.

Gyarados (Mega): A -> A-

Agree
Gyarados before mega evolving has a noticeable weakness to stealth rocks holding it back, and after mega evolving loses to one of the best and most common mons in the tier in Keldeo. The metagame has just been shifting in an unfavorable direction for Mega Gyarados.

Kyurem-Black: A -> A-

Disagree
Why? This breaks a lot of teams in the meta with it's insane coverage, has a possibility to run iron head and hidden power fire which lures in it's most common checks and the scarf set ohko's a lot of faster mons in the meta. This has a lot of wall breaking capability, good bulk, and most teams struggle to switch in. Definitely good in A rank

Manectric (Mega): A -> A-

Agree
Mega manectric has gotten worse. Almost all teams have a good switch in to this. Also, scarf landorus-therian is very common and this forces mega mane users to predict. Deserves to drop.

Breloom: A- -> A
Undecided

Starmie: A- -> A

Agree
This is one of the most reliable hazard removers as well as a great keldeo check which everyteam basically mandates. Offensive variants have access to Bolt-Beam coverage which rips teams apart.
Jirachi: A- -> A

Undecided

Aerodactyl (Mega): A- > B+

Agree
A lot of teams carry checks to this as well as mega aero having a bad defensive typing not really finding any time to switch in. There are better options for sweepers, not to mention the rocks weakness.

Latias (Mega): B+ -> A-

Disagree
Mega Latias, while proving to be a very effective bulky sweeper or defogger, is just hindered by it's overwhelming inability to touch the prevalent dark types in the tier. Bisharp, weavile and tyrantiar are just too common to make mega latias A- worthy.

Sharpedo (Mega): B -> B-

Agree
Mega Sharpedo is an effective sweeper except it only has 1 chance to sweep as it loses speed boost after mega evolving. It needs a lot of support to be an effective sweeper and also gets revenge killed way too easily.

Crawdaunt: B- -> B

Disagree
While crawdaunt is a very powerful wall breaker, it is just way too slow and frail to be truly effective. Wallbreakers like hoopa-unbound and Kyurem-B do a much better job with more bulk. Crawdaunt also has a good switch in in keldeo, one of the best mons in the tier.

 

[p2]

i saw that mega aero is up for discussion down to b+ and after playing around with it im against it dropping. its speed tier is probably the best thing about it outpacing everything up to +1 gyara which is pretty incredible. aero is really great on offense right now outspeeding many key threats like keld zam torn serp and lop which a lot of these teams struggle with is honestly amazing because it relieves a ton of pressure off building. it isn't the hardest hitting mon but that's why it excels at cleaning because it hits hard enough to pick off nearly anything offensive. to be honest i think people take the wrong approach to using aero, trying to break walls with aqua tail and ice fang and shit but its far more effective at generating momentum and cleaning and by that i feel its best set is stone edge|aerial ace|roost|taunt which shuts off a ton of mons that would try to setup on aero and helps prevent clef aids from being too trigger happy with thunder wave. it also functions as an alright stallbreaker but its pretty limited to what it can check but preventing skarm hippo and ferro getting rocks up is huge for the teams aero fits on so yeah a fast taunt can be extremely useful in a lot of situations and i encourage everybody to try it on aero because i think 4 atk is a waste and tries to turn aero into something it isn't.

it's got its weaknesses but nah it doesn't need to drop yet. its really slept on right now.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

TDK brought up Alomomola to B- (woops typoed at first) as a potential move, citing Zapdos as a pokemon that isn't particularly more viable. I'm not sure how I feel about it but I think there's merit to this argument. Alomomola is pretty solid for a stallmon, and it helps that SubCM Keldeo (one of the former biggest threats to stall, and a mon that sets up on Alomo easily) is basically not used now. Many semistalls can rely on things without reliable recovery and having a solid wishpasser is pretty imperative to that.

Anyway guess what I wanna know is your guys' thoughts on this. Obvious traits aside, what analysis would bring you to either conclusion (rise or stay)?

i think it should move up. being a check to keldeo and switching into several common attackers like garchomp, azumarill, diancie, lando, and lopunny for the most part, confortably is pretty great. scald to fish for burns (no pun intended), knock off for utility, and toxic to cripple walls, massive wish support (which is rather easy for it to use) with regenerator, and defensive stats that allow it to act as a solid mixed wall.

its defenses + regenerator + good defensive typing make it stupidly hard to wear down and defeat. i think we all know from experience how annoying amoonguss and slowbro can be.
it's physical bulk is pretty decent compared to slowbro

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Alomomola: 177-208 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's special defenses are pretty neat too, taking stuff like grass knot from mega metagross better than suicune and slowbro can.

not being able to twave threats like charizard x is kind of a bummer, but it has plenty of other things going for it.

- wish support with its large hp stat can really be useful and having regenerator means that it doesn't always need to use wish on itself.
- regenerator and its bulk allows it to defensively pivot into threats like keldeo and attempt to cripple them, similar to slowbro

niches over other bulky waters:
- unlike slowbro, it's not weak to knock off and pursuit
- in comparison to slowking, it's access to wish, lack of dark type weakness and better physical bulk set them apart.
- wish + regenerator give it something over suicune, slowbro and slowking

the combination of those unique traits make it a pretty respectable bulky water type. and altogether, i think its niche is bigger and more relevant than the pokemon in C+ and a fine choice for stall and balance. yeah, im not against it rising

i saw that mega aero is up for discussion down to b+ and after playing around with it im against it dropping. its speed tier is probably the best thing about it outpacing everything up to +1 gyara which is pretty incredible. aero is really great on offense right now outspeeding many key threats like keld zam torn serp and lop which a lot of these teams struggle with is honestly amazing because it relieves a ton of pressure off building. it isn't the hardest hitting mon but that's why it excels at cleaning because it hits hard enough to pick off nearly anything offensive. to be honest i think people take the wrong approach to using aero, trying to break walls with aqua tail and ice fang and shit but its far more effective at generating momentum and cleaning and by that i feel its best set is stone edge|aerial ace|roost|taunt which shuts off a ton of mons that would try to setup on aero and helps prevent clef aids from being too trigger happy with thunder wave. it also functions as an alright stallbreaker but its pretty limited to what it can check but preventing skarm hippo and ferro getting rocks up is huge for the teams aero fits on so yeah a fast taunt can be extremely useful in a lot of situations and i encourage everybody to try it on aero because i think 4 atk is a waste and tries to turn aero into something it isn't.

it's got its weaknesses but nah it doesn't need to drop yet. its really slept on right now.

i think the main problem ive always had with aerodactyl is the opportunity cost. there are times when teambuilding or in battle when i wish i had a potentially better mega, since aerodactyl struggles to do much against common defensive mons. back when tankchomp was more common, aerodactyl struggled a lot more than it probably does now. those were my problems with it anyway. ill have to play with it again to see if things have changed

that stallbreaker set looks cool though. stopping tankchomp, lando, skarm, hippo, and suicide leads like azelf from getting up rocks is great. taunt somewhat patching up its bad matchup against defensive pokemon like clefable that love to twave and it completely stopping gliscor also sounds pretty neat.

i can't say much else till i try the set myself (p2 do you have replays by any chance?)

 

[Alfalfa]

i think the main problem ive always had with aerodactyl is the opportunity cost. there are times when teambuilding or in battle when i wish i had a potentially better mega, since aerodactyl struggles to do much against common defensive mons. back when tankchomp was more common, aerodactyl struggled a lot more than it probably does now. those were my problems with it anyway. ill have to play with it again to see if things have changed

that stallbreaker set looks cool though. stopping tankchomp, lando, skarm, hippo, and suicide leads like azelf from getting up rocks is great. taunt somewhat patching up its bad matchup against defensive pokemon like clefable that love to twave and it completely stopping gliscor also sounds pretty neat.

i can't say much else till i try the set myself (p2 do you have replays by any chance?)

Well, p2 was citing Mega Aerodactyl's match-up against offense in his nomination, reasoning that he should be ranked higher based on his capabilities as a revenge killer, and not for his matchup against defensive Pokemon. If you are going to question the nomination, you should at least question his points except trying to rehash a point he declared to be moot.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Well, p2 was citing Mega Aerodactyl's match-up against offense in his nomination, reasoning that he should be ranked higher based on his capabilities as a revenge killer, and not for his matchup against defensive Pokemon. If you are going to question the nomination, you should at least question his points except trying to rehash a point he declared to be moot.

i didn't question his nomination wth. i simply stated the reasons why it was (to many people, to myself, and on the smogon analysis) underwhelming as a mega at the time that it was nominated for a drop. p2's reasoning was that people use aerodactyl's four attacks set incorrectly (they use it as a wallbreaker, instead of a cleaner/revenge killer). in other words, he said people bashed aerodactyl because "X problem" and i simply cited other problems because it was a little more than that. in other words, provide insights to the pov of who would advocate it for a drop.

what i said was simply pointing out other problems people had with mega aero (such as back when tankchomp was more common, and because it's onsite sets performed poorly against defensive teams). i only clarified the position others were in back when they suggested aero moved down to B+, because their problems with it were more than just using the pokemon wrong.

i didnt judge aerodactyl's stallbreaker set because i haven't used it yet. in fact:

i can't say much else till i try the set myself (p2 do you have replays by any chance?)

stating/clarifying the pov of the advocates for its drop by citing the problems from those who wanted it to drop and from the onsite analysis (again, because people had other issues with aero outside of using it incorrectly or wastefully) and stating my thoughts on a cool looking set does not equate to me rehashing his points or questioning his nom. read my post before accusing me of something i didn't do. thanks.

 

[bludz]

I think Mega Aero is underrated to an extent but I don't really like Taunt on it. I mean it's sort of bound to end up on builds where you have stallbreakers / wallbreakers anyway to act as a cleaner, so why not provide coverage instead? Granted it's going to work in some situations but I'd really rather have Aqua Tail when I'm trying to clean things out late game. Helping with Clef is nice I guess but plenty of room to use teammates for that.

I agree with p2's other points though particularly that people think of its coverage as a reason to wallbreak when its really just supposed to help it sweep once things have been weakened. Also one of the few super fast mons that doesn't lose to Talonflame

 

[dice]

i think klefki's a bit high; it's really not that great. it has 4mss as it wants metal sound to beat clefable, magnet rise to spike on land-t, toxic for certain bulky waters and grounds, etc. idk, i just feel like i'm playing a losing battle whenever i use it b.c. it just /isn't bulky enough/ or /doesn't check enough/ or /is too vulnerable/ to a myriad of common mons. if i ever want a spiker, skarmory and ferrothorn are mostly superior go-tos. i understand klefki is most fitting for offensive builds and can act as a sole lati check unlike the others, but its generally just /there/. opposing mons like ferrothorn/skarmory can spike war and are just more useful, heatran gets a free switch, garchomp.. sd landt, exca destroys it, mega sciz, etc. often, it's a team's sole steel type so u can't even play to riskily with it or u are gonna get owned by lati. prob b+.

b+ seems kinda confused in general tho. feraligatr/dragonite/diggersby/arguably mamoswine are all distinctly worse than the rest of the tier, so maybe move them to b? a few of the mons in b like tangrowth/reuniclus could maybe move to b+ too as they're seeing more usage and have notable niches in the meta.

 

[Giagantic]

No one uses metal sound klefki, and it really feels like you're just trying to make it sound like it has 4mss when it doesn't really. With your logic almost every pokemon has 4mss. 4mss is when a pokemon needs more than 4 moves, and klefki usually doesn't really need more than spikes, t-wave, foul play and either magnet rise or toxic. You didn't even mention the fact that it has prankster t-wave and dual screens, and it's also the only pokemon with priority spikes. Even though it's bulk isn't all that, it slightly makes up for it because it doesn't need EV's in anything other than bulk, and not too mention it's splendid typing that gives it 2 immunities, 8 1/2 resistances and a 1/4 resistance. I'm not 100% against dropping, but i don't agree with your reasoning.

I disagree, Klefki most assuredly has 4mss, it wants to run Dual status (Twave + Toxic) , Magnet Rise (to setup on Landorus-Therian), Spikes, and this is ignoring offensive moves that it also wants to run in order to not be complete and utter taunt bait, and so it can threaten out the likes of Clefable + Diancie with Flash Cannon, Foul play so to prevent Setup sweepers that dont mind twave or are immune (Landorus-therian + Excadrill), Play Rough / Dazzeling Gleam so that it isn't walled and hurt by Mega-Sableye, and this is ignoring niche options such as Heal Block, Metal Sound, Etc... It most certainly does have 4mss more so then a lot of Pokemon in OU. 4 moveslot syndrome is, in my opinion, only a major problem when it impedes a Pokemon's ability to perform as it can be rightfully argued in most cases that all Pokemon desire more move slots but it all comes down to how it effects their viability and ability to perform within any given meta-game. Klefki's choice of moves heavily influences its ability to perform to such an extent that it can basically be useless in some games depending on what is ran in examples such as versus mega-sableye teams where a Klefki without Fairy coverage is basically useless as its hazards / status are reflected, any offensive coverage other then the aforementioned fairy moves does little to nothing!

However, does that warrant a drop, I am not sure as that would be ignoring what it brings to a team ranging from its great typing to its priority status + spikes coughtwaveistupidcough.

Edit of an edit: Imo it shouldn't drop, just to make that clear.

 

[blank]

i think klefki is fine in A- given how good keldeo + pursuit + spike stacking is. also, klefki is one of the few spikers that fits on offensive builds without killing momentum while still providing solid utility in the stuff it checks (lati@s, weavile, etc.), thunder wave, w.e.

i can see how feraligatr / dragonite / diggersby don't fit in as well in B+ compared to things like mega latias (why isn't this A-...), suicune, amoonguss, celebie, etc., but i think all 3 of them are a decent level above the pokemon currently in B rank with the exception(s) of tangrowth, which i think would be fine in B+, and possibly reuniclus.

 

[Random Passerby]

Manectric (Mega): A -> A-

The popularity of Mega Latias and Sand makes this mon very difficult to use as Latias sets up on it, Ttar and Hippo doesn't care about it while Excadrill outpaces and OHKOes with Earthquake. While it has a high base Speed, Mega Alakazam's rise also means it's not going to be the fastest thing around soon. Plus, with all the priority like Banded Aqua Jet, Fist Plate Mach Punch and Ice Shard going around, Mega Manectric is going to get worn down fast, especially with hazards damage. The decreased usage of Manaphy and other Water-types (except Keldeo and Azumarill) didn't exactly help it either.

 

[bludz]

Yeah I think Feraligatr should drop. It has problems setting up and is often easily revenge killed even if it does.

Definitely disagree with Dragonite dropping; it has problems against many fat teams but can be a real issue for offense late game. It's definitely better than B rank.

Tangrowth I can see rising, Reuni maybe. Feel like there are too many dark types for it to be that great and it suffers a lot of competition from Clefable and Slowbro.

Good points about 4mss on klefki but just build the team in a way that it checks what you need it to. Not everything it's advertised as being able to can be accomplished in one set so build with these limitations in mind and it can do its job better. We don't say TornT has 4mss because it's more that it's versatile. I recognize klefki isn't in the same boat but if you are trying to make it do too many things that's just an unreasonable expectation in building, rather than it actually being lackluster

 

[Random Passerby]

If Gatr drops, shouldn't Gyara( both forms ) drop as well? Gyara can set up easier but is still easily revenged. It is also much less powerful than Gatr who has better coverage options.

 

[Srn]

Yeah dragonite is in no way anything less than B+, it's perfectly fine where its at. While the rocks support is pretty annoying, offense has a pretty tough time preventing set up from dragonite, and dnite can also own all those priority offense you see that use talonflame/weavile/bisharp/breloom to revenge kill stuff by just clicking boosted espeed. There are some common stuff that needs to be weakened before dnite can sweep, like clefable, ferro/zor (if eq), tran (if fire punch), lando-t, and ttar.
While they are pretty common, they're not too too hard to weaken or lure or just trap with zone, and this is just the DD set. CB is a pretty hard hitter that can function as a revenge killer with banded espeed, and there are some weird sets like bulky roost dd which pretty sure bengy used here in SPL, and some rare mixed sets with iron tail or DD weakness policy (which isn't as bad as people say) can surprise people too. Dnite is fine where it is.

Gatr and diggersby are both strong and can put in work against the builds they're supposed to, I can't really see them in the same tier as mega beedril, dragalge, and victini. They're better than that. Swords dance Aqua jet Gatr is also a pretty cool set, although even more strapped for coverage between ice punch, crunch, and superpower.

Reuni and tangrowth should definitely move up, tangrowth especially runs a great av set with giga or leaf storm / knock off / and hp fire/hp ice/eq/rock slide in the last two slots. You can tailor it to check what your team needs to beat/lure and its just a great not-passive fatmon in general.

Manectric Mega should not move down, while sand balance and mega lati is pretty annoying for it, I find it pretty hard to justify that "prevalence of priority" is wearing it down when it is beating most priority users anyways (think talon, breloom, weavile, azu, scizor, dnite if rocks). Coincidentally, not much sets up hazards on mega manectric either. It beats every relevant spiker (klefki, ferro, skarm) and its coverage can beat some relevant rockers like lando-t or chomper. It's not awfully strong and hippo shuts it down completely but electric/fire/ice coverage with good speed and volt switch is enough to sit among the likes of mega venu, mega garde, and char-y.

Mega gyarados should also not move down, it is not easy to revenge kill at all. Even modest scarf keldeo only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO uninvested mega gyara, this thing's bulky as shit and getting up 1 dd is no problem, even 2 is pretty realistic. It has common checks, but those common checks are also pretty easy to weaken and lure, and mega gyarados itself can check some relevant stuff like excadrill. Taunt+DD also shits on some fat builds really hard.

Finally, I want to make a nom of my own: Raikou to B+

Raikou has seriously taken a hit these past few months. More and more sand balance, more mega latias, more ferrothorns to set spikes and more scarf tars to keep them up, the metagame is seriously unfriendly to raikou right now. Don't get me wrong, calm mind+volt switch is still a lovely set and its still a great check to torn-t, gengar, and thundurus and the like but meta trends are really against it. It was used only 17 times throughout all of OLT playoffs and it's been used ONCE in spl so far. I can see it chillin with celebi, gastro, and heracross-mega, it doesn't belong in A- anymore and it should move down.