Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Eclipse]

Mamoswine B+ -> B: Disagree

I'm not sure what exactly has changed in the meta right now, at least besides the rise of Scarf Rachi, to make this beast worse. I won't comment on its Sash Lead set (which quite frankly, is trash), but its LO wallbreaker set is just powerful, it's ridiculous. Being able to KO Torn after rocks with Ice Shard is awesome, and it's nice for 2HKO'ing Clefable with Icicle Crash while you don't have to worry about T-Wave threatening you.

Speaking of T-Wave mons, the rise in popularity of M-Latias is fantastic for Mamo, as it completely shits on the utility/CM sets and forces it out. Once Mamo is on the field, nothing wants to switch into its phenomenal Ground/Ice STAB's coming off that meaty 130 Attack stat. It's a mon that has very few switchins, and it also appreciates the surge in usage of Grass mons such as Amoonguss which Mamo simply manhandles. And also it's alright bulk along with Thick Fat help it take hits a bit better than one might think. Sure, Keldeo being so prominent sucks for Mamo, but Keldeo's always been a pain in its ass, and I really don't see what else has made this mon worse right now.

Overall, Mamoswine's phenomenal breaking power and ability to handle mons that are becoming more common in the meta while also dealing well with Ground types and having an awesome priority move I believe are enough to keep it where it is, as I certainly don't think it is anywhere on the level of the B rank mons, and should stay where it is.

Keep Mamoswine in B+

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

As much as it pains me to say this, M-Absol no longer has a niche that warrants it having a rank as high as C anymore. Its niche as an offensive Magic Bounce user is outdated as Mega Diancie has been a thing for well over a year now, and it has trivial things over M-Diancie (2HKOing SpD Skarmory, basically). That being said, I think SD + BP can warrant D. If we're going to rank Umbreon and Xatu on trivial niches, we may as well allow Absol to stay ranked on a trivial niche, because honestly, let's be real, Umbreon peaked in viability when Aegislash was a thing and its advantages over Clefable are extremely minor (and I've used Umbreon.) SD BP M-Absol at least takes advantage of how badly it's a Fairy magnet so it can basically set up SD, lure them in, and pass to something like Talonflame or Excadrill that can then threaten them out and sweep, which other Dark-types like Weavile can't really do. Even compared to other SD passers, I think being untauntable is a big enough niche to warrant ranking it, especially if we're going to rank shit like Umbreon and Shedinja on even smaller niches (and the latter of which requires an unbelievable amount of team support)

On discussion slate:

Keep Klefki in A-

I mean, this thing can Spike stack, Speed control, check Latis, and even function as an emergency Prankster T-wave user to prevent something like Mega Charizard X from sweeping, all in just one Pokemon, and it's being considered for a drop? Find me something else with that much value for offense (let alone fucking anything else that can Spike stack for offense, I mean what, did you plan on running Ferrothorn on offense or something?) and maybe I'll agree with a drop, but until then, A- sounds like a good place for Klefki.

Don't raise Starmie

So... What puts this at the level of A? I mean, I guess the fact that it outspeeds Gengar is nice, but the Pursuit weakness makes me question its consistency as a spinner. And the bulky sets? So you need Spin obviously, Scald is mandatory, and you need Recover, and you probably need to run Reflect Type to avoid Pursuit trapping, but now you have no room to run Psyshock and lose to Keldeo. If I'm going to use a bulky spinner, I'm running Excadrill, because it at least has Mold Breaker to be able to Toxic Mega Sableye, and I don't think I need to explain why having a Spinner that isn't totally worthless against M-Sableye is a huge deal.

AMOONGUSS FOR A-

It took this long for this to come up? It faces competition with Mega Venusaur, sure, but Regenerator and not taking up your Mega slot is pretty big. Its list of Pokemon it checks is very similar to Mega Venusaur's, but it also has 100% accurate Sleep, Regenerator, non-Mega, and Clear Smog allowing it to wipe boosts from Serperior and CM Clefable, or really any CM user except like, SubCM Keldeo. There's a reason this thing got tantalizingly close to rising to OU recently. B+ is undersellng it.

 

[ethanlol]

Mamoswine B+ -> B: Disagree

I'm not sure what exactly has changed in the meta right now, at least besides the rise of Scarf Rachi, to make this beast worse. I won't comment on its Sash Lead set (which quite frankly, is trash), but its LO wallbreaker set is just powerful, it's ridiculous. Being able to KO Torn after rocks with Ice Shard is awesome, and it's nice for 2HKO'ing Clefable with Icicle Crash while you don't have to worry about T-Wave threatening you.

Speaking of T-Wave mons, the rise in popularity of M-Latias is fantastic for Mamo, as it completely shits on the utility/CM sets and forces it out. Once Mamo is on the field, nothing wants to switch into its phenomenal Ground/Ice STAB's coming off that meaty 130 Attack stat. It's a mon that has very few switchins, and it also appreciates the surge in usage of Grass mons such as Amoonguss which Mamo simply manhandles. And also it's alright bulk along with Thick Fat help it take hits a bit better than one might think. Sure, Keldeo being so prominent sucks for Mamo, but Keldeo's always been a pain in its ass, and I really don't see what else has made this mon worse right now.

Overall, Mamoswine's phenomenal breaking power and ability to handle mons that are becoming more common in the meta while also dealing well with Ground types and having an awesome priority move I believe are enough to keep it where it is, as I certainly don't think it is anywhere on the level of the B rank mons, and should stay where it is.

Keep Mamoswine in B+

I agree with the post above. Generally Mamoswine has proven to wreck teams who aren't prepared for the power he packs with priority ice shard. Really difficult to switch into. Good Offensive typing makes it really difficult to face. With Healing Wish support it can win games on it's own. Mamoswine has a good place in B+ as a very potent threat. Decent speed tier that allows it to 1v1 breloom with prior damage. Ice and Ground is a good STAB offensive typing.

 

[MANNAT]

New Slate

Klefki A--->B+: *Copypasted from previous post since it is on current slate* This thing has way too much utility to drop down into the B ranks. It offers extreme role compression for offense; providing speed control for slower teams, being a great lati switch in, stacking spikes, and ability to check a multitude of mons based on its last moveslot. Klefki can still check the dragons that it wants to (i.e the lati twins) with flash cannon since it takes jack shit from resisted psyshock, and leaving the lati twins paralyzed isn't exactly the worst thing in the world. Literally the only mon that it misses out on killing by not using dazzling gleam is msab, which you don't spike up on and it knocks off your lefties while burning you, so staying in to gleam is more detrimental than helpful. Additionally, Klefki should really be used as a glue mon to patch up the last few weaknesses that a team possesses as opposed to people that say it should be a check to scizor/diancie/sab/chomp/lati twins/lando/hippo/everything else it can check because nothing has that much role compression in the entire metagame lol. Does it have minor 4MSS? Yes, but that's why it is A- rank as a utility mon and spiker. Ferro and skarm don't suffer from 4MSS as much as spikers, and that is reflected in the VR. It is too good of a mon to drop any further because of its utility and nice role compression for offense, although it isn't the ultimate end-all be all check to half the meta, it is still a really good glue/utility mon to finish off a solid offensive team.

Weavile A+--->A: I feel like this is a bit too hasty since the rise in the popularity of mlatias and jirachi, two mons that despise switching into weavile and make keeping weavile on teams a really good idea. Also, lando/garchomp are both on 50%+ of teams even though they've become slightly less prevalent, so recent metagame trends in general don't point to it dropping at all. Additionally, weavile forces you to run more than one dark check on darkspam-weak teams since a lot of things that can beat bisharp, like chomper, fast tran, gliscor, and others gets shitted on by Weavile and are basically just excuses for weav to fire off free knock offs, assuming that they need said mons ofc. If you don't like weavile because it doesn't have the pure scariness of SD bisharp, then just use fucking SD weavile lol. It's just as good a wincon as bisharp since it can spam it's non-prio moves quite often against most builds by virtue of its 125 base speed. common checks like ferrothorn, clefable, skarm, all keel over vs +2 weavile if they try to switch into the monster since it is so strong at +2. If your team is azu weak (as in you have checks but no really good switch ins) you can run LO poison jab to actually kill azu after knock+pjab most of the time, and guarenteed after rocks vs the band set and eliminating a huge threat to your offensive team. This can be used in conjunction with Keldeo to pressure offense's common checks to shit like azu and stuff and end up bopping that shit while also not being terrible at pursuit trapping since this thing doesn't really run pursuit that much and it can nab quite a few kills to pave way for sweepers that share common checks with weav. It has so many good options from pursuit to pjab to low kick to sd to return (for keldeo) that your opp can never know for sure what it could be running, but they will still feel just as pissed off as when they guess wrong and get royally fucked by Weavile.

Raikou: A- --->B+: Raikou should probably drop as its only good set at this point is CM and that shit is basically useless whenever you see a hippo on the opposing team which sucks. Raik is checked by so many common mons on offense like the lati twins and shit that I am really deterred from using it and I only use it on select teams that really need an electric check that can also beat waters. To add onto what sucks about raikou is that it can't even viably run fire coverage for fat steels like ferro and spdef driller that want to wall it because it lacks overheat, so it's even worse than mmane, which isn't nearly as good now as it was a while ago. Its lackluster speed also leaves it outpaced by a ton of shit like flare blitz talon, weavile, tornt (u turn), and others, so it really sucks especially when compared to mmane which is its closest counterpart, and this should be reflected by dropping it 2 subranks below mmane. Obviously it is a cool wincon with cm and doesn't take up a mega slot, but it's kinda shit and doesn't have enough redeeming qualities to stay in the A ranks imo.

Misc. Notes: Starmie is one of those mons on the verge of rising and has such a threatening and good offensive set that I wouldn't be upset to see it rise, but it does have notable flaws that prevents it from being a first ballot A rank mon, amoong is an amazingly splashable mon that can check a ton of shit in one slot while also being able to severely cripple one of the opponent's pokemon per match, which is really nice so it should def rise. Malt has a lot of defensive utility on fat builds, but its dd sets have gotten worse and it doesn't really fit onto offensive builds super well, so I wouldn't be opposed the drop, although I'm not so sure we should jump to dropping it so quickly. I haven't really used anything else on the slate lately, so I'm prolly not going to comment on them, but why is mmedi up for a drop when msab and stall builds in general are becoming less common? (bar that gay mbro team tdk made) lol

 

[Tressed]

Regarding Starmie, I should clarify that the defensive set is really awful and if we were going to rank it based on that I would be asking for it to drop like a rock. Passive, burn reliant, and not very bulky to start with. The nom was entirely based on the offensive set (which I didn't actually post in the first post oops), so let's stick to discussing that.

As for the offensive variant, a bit more threatening, but also more easily Pursuit trapped. Thunder Wave is also a bigger problem for the offensive variant. Lastly, it's pretty easy for almost every playstyle to trade with offensive Starmie at worst. Weavile or Mega Lopunny beat it outright 1v1, and something with even just decent bulk should be able to take 1 hit from Starmie's measly 100 base SpA, and Starmie is so frail, without investment it's basically OHKOd by anything.

Defensive Starmie would be more vulnerable to being trapped, since it's relying on Scald burns or Reflect Type (please don't use Reflect Type) in order to prevent it from happening, while the only Pursuit trapper that can take a LO Analytic-boosted Hydro Pump on the switch in is AV Metagross. The stuff about Thunder Wave, Weavile, and Mega Lopunny are all true for a lot of offensive mons (TWave ruins everything while Weavile and Lopunny are already offense killers) so I wouldn't say that that's a key element to what defines an A Rank offensive mon. Damage stuff is a fair argument, Starmie is fairly frail and doesn't do a ton of damage in a straight up fight. However, it's typing gives it opportunities to check stuff like Keldeo and Heatran, and the process of forcing this stuff out allows Starmie to become actually threatening with Analytic. Last point is definitely a legitimate reason for it to stay A- so I'm alright with it staying put for those reasons.

I'll touch on some other stuff I feel like writing about.

keys

Klefki is kinda interesting in that it is rather flexible in what it can do, but it's also really limited in that it really can only do one thing at a time. It's not really a huge issue for me; have Klefki do what your team appreciates most and let the rest of the team do the other stuff. It's got a really nice kit for supporting offensive teams while not being entirely dead weight. It's obviously gonna struggle with stuff based on it's movepool, but I feel like having it in A- acknowledges those flaws while still demonstrating how good it's support abilities really are. Don't feel like it should drop given how effective it is.

mushroom

Amoongus has been excellent for a very long time given it's usage in tours and high level play. Checks a ton of relevant stuff, fits into cores nicely, and has enough of a presence through Clear Smog, Spore, and STABs that it isn't fodder for much. The fact that it can check stuff like Keldeo, Breloom, etc and isn't total Pursuit bait is a huge selling point here, since ScarfTar / Bisharp / Metagross are pretty common partners to a lot of the mons that get stopped by Psychics. Not a ton to say here, it's just a very consistent mon on balance and stall teams, and it might be a better pick than Mega Venusaur right now due to how common Sand teams are and Venu's limited healing when under sandstorm.

doglion

Entei's weird. Switching into Sacred Fire is an absolute nightmare in that while it doesn't do as much damage as, say, CB Victini's V-Create, the burn chance can completely cripple some checks. It kinda plays like a wallbreaker / stallbreaker hybrid, where the burn wears out an opposing team until they can't actually take the hits anymore. It's also alright against offense, Dragonite proves that Banded ESpeed is glorious and even though Entei's isn't quite as impressive it's still a really solid tool against offense. My main beef with Entei is that it needs a specific kind of team in order to function, namely a team with a lot of hazard support. Entei is going to be switching in and out because of Choice Band, so it really needs consistent hazard removal and / or VoltTurn help in order to make it onto the field without getting worn out too fast. Ultimately I think that even though it is decent, the amount of support you have to put into making it work sways my vote to C+, though I'm not seriously opposed to it moving up.

 

[Clair]

I know this isn't a Clair-esque post, but it's one of my first ones, so cut me a bit of slack D:

I have no idea what this means but your post was awesome, don't be so modest dude :)

Weavile: A+ -> A

I never really agreed with Weavile going to A+ in the first place. Dark spam got a ton of hype but I felt like that just reflected the weakness that a lot of teams had to it, rather than Weavile's capabilities per se. Anyway, Scarf Jirachi is everywhere, and I feel like M-Latias' popularity actually hurts it (since it replaces base Lati@s on a lot of teams, and isn't as vulnerable to Weavile). It's still a great cleaner and revenge killer (being able to out-prioritise Breloom, which is common atm, is huge) but given its undeniable issues A rank fits it perfectly.

Mega Altaria: A -> A-

Yep. DD + Roost sets have been bad for a while. Every balance or stall packs a hard counter, and it isn't bulky enough that it can set up reliably against offense. Scarf Rachi etc as well. DD + 3 attacks at least takes advantage of its major selling point over other Fairies, Fire coverage, but it's still not worth using over Gardevoir or Diancie on 90% of teams. The special tank set is alright, since it offers good role compression, and isn't pressured by Burns from things it's supposed to beat the way DD sets are. Still, with only good bulk, no Lefties, and vulnerability to all kinds of passive damage it's really easy to wear down, which forces you to incorporate back-up checks at teambuilding. A- for sure.

Mega Medicham: A -> A-

I can kinda see the argument here...on the one hand M-Lati and Lando-T (replacing Chomp) are everywhere, but on the other hand HO is dominant, so the opportunity cost for picking either Ice Punch or Bullet Punch has increased. Medi also doesn't really appreciate the super-fast meta, and balances usually run Slowbro for role compression. It's probably still too powerful to drop, but this is an interesting one.

Mega Latias: A- -> A

Maybe give it some time to let the hype cool off but at the moment it fits in A for sure.

Starmie: A- -> A

Let's ignore defensive sets because they're bad. Life Orb Mie has a good speed tier, revenge kills Thund and Breloom nicely, gives you at least one "reset button" against spikestacking teams, cleans and wallbreaks pretty reliably, and checks the newly S-ranked Keldeo. U-turn spam from Torn and the two Scarfers on the rise, Landog and Jirachi, is pretty annoying though, and outside of offense it faces serious competition from M-Lati and Slowbro, which will nearly always be the better choice. Leaning towards staying in A-.

Raikou: A- -> B+

There's very little reason to use Raikou in this metagame. It's always been easy to wall, but Tangrowth and Amoonguss are both getting extra hype rn, and M-Latias steals some of its niche (Torn-T / Manaphy / Zard-Y check). Not that bulky, not that fast, and pretty weak when you take its poor movepool into account. Calm Mind has a vague niche in setting up on Thunder Wave Lati, and Toxic makes an alright lure, but yeah this needs to drop.

Amoonguss: B+ -> A-

Some of the best role compression in the tier, and I think the predominance of offense actually hides its passivity after using Spore pretty well. Borderline case but imo deserving of A-.

Mew: A- -> B+

The bulky set is actually still extremely annoying, but I think its low use is largely attributable to how necessary Slowbro or M-Lati are on balance right now to handle Lopunny and Medicham. Mew wants to be specially defensive for Keldeo, Kyu-B and so on, which I think can result in a lot of awkward teambuilding to cover the aforementioned Fighting types. Actually by far the most common Mew sets on the ladder are Life Orb or Expert Belt lures, which I think are reliant on a diminishing surprise factor and only moderately effective. Overall B+ sounds good.

Gyarados: A- -> B+

Probably should stay in A- based on its intrinsic qualities, but it suffers from there being better options both offensively (Azumarill) and defensively (Slowbro). SubBounce should be the relevant set (which I haven't used recently so I'll let somebody else talk about it).

Togekiss: B+ -> B

There's no reason to use a dedicated stallbreaker any more, and unless you're terrified of Garchomp, Togekiss is outclassed in any support capacity. Offensive sets aren't really bad, especially partnered with M-Latias to spread paralysis, but like M-Altaria tend to be outclassed by other Fairies with more immediate speed and power. There's a TrickScarf set with Air Slash, Heal Bell and Defog which works a lot better than it looks, but I think B rank is fair.

Mamoswine: B+ -> B

Nope. Breaks all those offenses which rely on Lando-T to switch into stuff, and is really good at breaking down things like Keldeo or Azumarill. Life Orb pairs really nicely with Dark-spam for that reason, and because the Darks take advantage of Slowbro and tend to weaken Skarm and generic physically bulky stuff. Sash is still semi-usable with Endeavour and Oblivious. It's an extremely prediction reliant mon but too good to drop.

Entei: C+ -> B-

Yes please. Pairs amazingly with all kinds of physical threats, such as M-Lopunny, because of its ability to get off almost guaranteed Burns on Lando-T and Slowbro. Bisharp's another fantastic partner. Incredibly easy to use thanks to how spammable Sacred Fire and, lategame, Extremespeed are. Now that RockyChomp usage has dropped off, offense tends to lack answers to SD M-Zor as well (Keldeo's way too easy to weaken with Bisharp / Weavile), so that's another thing in Entei's favour.

 

[CreativiTimothy]

littlelucario I agreed with one of your older posts, but I kind of disagree with your most recent one.
Bear with my guys. I tried my best thinking everything thoroughly. Spent 4 hours writing this, including fixing typos.

Klefki A- --> Stays A-: Klefki is probably one of the best utility Pokemon in the tier. Klefki almost always guarantees a switch, which allows Klefki to set up Spikes. Defoggers usually don't switch into Klefki because Latios and Skarmory dislike the Thunder Wave, with defog Mega Scizor being the only defog switch-in, but it can't really hurt Klefki. So, a threat switches in and you get 1 layer of spikes, now what? Often, there is limited amount of Pokemon that can switch into Klefki without being crippled by Thunder Wave. Landorous-T and a few other Pokemon counter it well, but Charizard-X/Y and TalonFlame don't want to come in because of Thunder Wave. Klefki often is not setup bait as any Pokemon that tries to set up is crippled by Thunder Wave, other than Manaphy. Klefki has also the some options to deal with fairies, though not perfect, but it prevents it from being setup bait from Clefable and Mega-Diancie -- Klefki can run Flash Cannon over Magnet Rise/Toxic. Clefable will take a reasonable chunk of damage from flash cannon and may need to spend a turn healing up. Mega Diancie is OHKO-ed or hit very hard with Flash Cannon, and Klefki, often running the special defensive set, can survive earth power. Overall, Klefki checks half the tier and is very annoying, so it should stay A- for sure.

A+ --> Stays A+: If you manage to switch in to this thing safely once, it's pretty much guaranteed to nab a OHKO or 2HKO a pokemon that switch in or do some serious damage. If you're running an all-out attacker set with Icicle Crash / Knock Off / Low Kick / Poison Jab, pretty much nothing can switch. Landorous and other ground and flying types, dead. Fairies, dead. Heatran/Ferrothorn? Takes a chunk load from Low Kick. Half the time, I send this thing in something like Latios and have a 50% chance to kill 2 Pokemon. If your opponent's out of choice scarfers and priority moves or really fast Pokemon like Mega-Lopunny/Manectric, you basically win. On the other hand, if Scarfed Landorous-T comes in, Weavile can run Ice Shard, though Intimidiate might let Landorous-T survive. Choice Scarf Jirachi and Talonflame are the best checks, but nothing else can really take a hit from Weavile. Physical Walls are Knocked Off and are 2KHO-ed with the corresponding move. Now Weavile does have some cons. Obviously, he's pathetically frail, weak to Stealth Rocks, and dies from any attack. Scizor/Mega can come in and Bullet Punch, but they cannot switch in because both take huge damage from Weavile's STABs. Weavile's frailty also makes it very hard to switch into. This can be solved, though, with slow pivots like Defensive Landorous-T, Rotom-W, and Scizor/Mega. In a summary, Weavile is a fearsome attacker checking 80% of the metagame once it's switched in. It requires Volt-Turn and Defog support to function, but it is very threatening with said support given.

A- --> Stays A-: Raikou is bit underrated in general, mainly because it looks exactly like Jolteon, which is RU, and looks like it's overshadowed by Thundurus. However, Raikou has much better stats overall, allowing it to be useful. Everyone knows that while Rotom-W is an excellent pivot, it's sheer power is below average, and it can't do much other than Volt-Switch and do decent damage with Hydro Pump or annoy with will-o-wisp. Raikou has better stats than Rotom-W and he does about pretty much the same role except faster and less bulky. Hydro pump and Hidden Power Ice hurt and are resisted by the same Pokemon. What makes Raikou shine over Rotom-W is that it serves as an excellent Electric check, checking Thundurus and Mega Manectric, often deadly threats. Rotom-W is easily KO-ed by the two. The advantage of Rotom-W over Raikou is a slow pivot and will-o-wisp, but Raikou serves the other role. I found Specs Raikou pressuing teams much more easily than Rotom-W, Volt-Switching in and out, and it can KO Pokemon more easily. The best set it can run though is the 3 roles set (Calm Mind). Raikou can run all of Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, HP Ice and Calm Mind, allowing it to act as pivot, wall breaker, and sweep in the same set, holy crap! Leftovers is to help nearly match the bulk of Rotom-W while Life Orb lets Raikou hit hard. Overall, Raikou is an excellent A- Pokemon and has a lot of advantages as a Volt-Switcher over Rotom-W and is definitely at least in the same rank as Rotom-W.

Speaking of which....

Rotom-W A --> A-: It's a popular Pokemon as it serves to help form a Volt-Turn core. It has a few niches as a slow pivot and bulky will-o-wisp over Raikou, but do not overestimate it's capabilities. As I said, its stats are below average and anything can pressure or KO it with sheer force (figuratively, not the ability). As I said it can't do much other than Volt-Turn and tank. It's physical tanking means it is very weak at doing damage. It's just like the contrary of CB Scizor, with CB Scizor having more power and lackluster bulk, while Rotom-W having the opposite, and CB Scizor is good but not that great, falling under B. I'm comparing Rotom-W and Scizor to show that Rotom-W shouldn't be one whole letter grade over him -- it makes sense for Rotom-W to be 2 ranks higher than CB Scizor, no less no more, because Pokemon such as Mega-Metagross can serve CB Scizor's role much better (thanks Tressed for explaining). Btw, I noticed on the V3 thread that Rotom-W was A- before -- someone moved it to A, but it's too weak be there with ultra versatile Gengar troll (the fact that Rotom-W was on the V3 thread does not influence my position about Rotom-W).

A- --> A: Starmie is great Pokemon, sitting at an excellent speed tier that outspeeds Thundurus and Keldeo, allowing Starmie to revenge kill. Starmie has good power 100 base spa attack + life orb and stab attacks, with Analytic. Anything that's neutral to Starmie will be 2HKO-ed. Starmie is able hit a lot of important threats like Landorous-T, Mega Scizor, Latios, Talonflame, and others. Celebi doesn't want to switch in on hydro pump / ice beam because it will be 2KHO-ed easily. Let's talk about cons now. Starmie is frail, but it can survive neutral attacks with 60/85/85 defenses, unlike Weavile or something. The biggest problem is U-Turn bait and Pursuit, but most of the time, Starmie can handle the situation. Pursuit users like Scizor and Tyranitar hate hydro pump, so they can't really stop Starmie without risking a KO. Even if they manage a pursuit/U-turn and kill Starmie, Starmie would have already done a huge chunk of damage, and you gain momentum as you get to choose which Pokemon you sed out next. It deserves A before I could mention its rapid spin. Rapid Spin is invaluable as it removes hazards on only the opponent's field, and Stealth Rockers and Spikes bar SR Clefable all hate Starmie, so Starmie is pretty much guaranteed to get a rapid spin off. I actually find Starmie's Defensive Reflect-Type set viable. With 252 HP 252+ Spd, it's nearly as bulky as Rotom-W. While it doesn't seem as good as Analytic offensive set gives, it seems to work very well. Starmie can use Reflect Type that come in and annoy them, and it can proceed to spread Scald burns. Reflect-Type prevents it from being weak to Pursuit or U-turn, so it is never bait, e.g. Reflect Type against Scizor would give 4x resistance to U-Turn, e.g. Reflect Type against Bisharp gives 2x resistance to all of Bisharp's moves -- Mega-Metagross is the exception, but Starmie can just Scald and survive 40 non-STAB Pursuit + Bullet Punch if it has 60% or more HP. Electric types are generally faster bar Thundurus, so double-switching into Landorous/Garchomp/Gliscor into Celebi/Venusaur/SpD Jirachi/Heatran is a good idea. All in all, Starmie is definitely an excellent versatile A mon.

-Cool thing about Starmie: If you pair it up with Nasty Plot Celebi, you've got yourself one nasty offensive-core, with something like Keldeo or Mega-Lopunny to deal with dark types.

Whew, that was a long post, but I address a lot of issues. I hope you guys can take some of my feedback, agree, or give constructive reasoning.
P.S. The XY sprite generator doesn't work. Only the B/W does for some reason.

 

[AM]

While you're all at it, Mega Camerupt should be unranked.

Whatever appealing trait it has doesn't make up for its incredibly slow speed and the idea that it's a waste of a slot. It stayed where it's at in C- for awhile with the idea that it could come in and ravage an offense with Sheer boosted hits. These days however, especially with the usage of stuff like Lando-T, Garchomp, Sand, Rotom-W, and M-Lati roaming about, it's rare that it will ever serve a purpose over the other options in regards to being viable . Its bulk is an illusion when it's taking a good 40% on each turn barring a defensive team, it's weak to two staple offensive typings in water and ground, it's such an enormous opportunity cost due to its low speed and the amount of support it necessitates to function. Before someone brings up Trick Room as a legitimate reason to stay where it's at, keep in mind that there are much better Trick Room options for the mega slot such as M-Heracross and M-Abomasnow. The fact that even some unranked things such as the latter I mentioned is more appealing than M-Camerupt along with the fact you can justify most of the D to have some more legitimacy than M-Camerupt speaks a lot to myself at least.

 

[Martin]

Honestly basing Starmie's rank primarily on its role as a spinner is kinda questionable as the key appeal to offensive starmie comes from how effective it is as an attacker and its matchup with current trends - with spin being the cherry on top. Honestly my favorite set atm is Recover+3 attacks, which solves the longevity issues at the cost of the ability to spin and has appeal over LO Keld due to its speed tier, different STABs, access to better ice/electric coverage and ability to check opposing Keldeo consistently. Hell, if you're desparate Recover+Spin+2 attacks can work, albeit less effectively than Recover/Spin+3 attacks. I've been thinking that Starmie should move up for a while now due to its good matchup v.s. the fat grounds and Keldeo which are running all over the place as well as the rising Fastchomp/Soft Sand Lando usage - in addition to it benefitting in an offensive meta due to its speed tier+the insanity of Analytic-boosted pumps or the utility of Natural Cure to clear paralysis allowing it to combat common aspects of offense with relative ease. The hype around darkspam, while still there, is kinda starting to die down a tiny bit and with Breloom usage continuing to increase it can act as a good way to RK it. Amoonguss usage staying high is a double-edged sword here due to Starmie's ability to take it on semi-consistently if it has Psychic. The weakness to Pursuit and both VoltTurning moves sucks - especially with Scarf Lando gaining usage and ScarfTar being as highly used as ever, but I do think that its pros mostly outshine these and I can see it above most of the A- stuff at this point, maybe barring MLati and Breloom (who are on this slate anyway), which is why I can see a rise being feasible.

Also yeah I don't really think Mamo shoud drop on the basis that it absolutely adores the sheer number of grounds/tyranitars/tornadus-ts that are running around right now, making it really anti-meta, and I really can't see it sitting below Diggersby at all tbh.

I agree with the rest of the slate barring the amoonguss rise (too passive imo) and the Klefki drop (4MSS is the only real argument I can see for this due to how insanely splashable it is and how much it likes the trend of lots of offense, and the 4MSS argument is fundaentally flawed imo anyway), and I think that the Weavile drop is a little too soon (I can see it happening in maybe one or two slates time, just not yet).

 

[Gary]

Weavile: Yeah A+ is overselling it a bit too much. While I don't agree that its "lost its luster", I just don't think that it was ever as threatening as many of the Pokemon found in A+. As a Dark-type I'd definitely say it's most comparable to Bisharp, as it can threaten a large portion of the meta with strong dual STABs and priority, and they both share similar counters. The nice thing about Bisharp though is outside of its strong sweeping capabilities, it's also a great Defog deterrent and its defensive typing is actually very useful for offensive teams. Weavile is very strong offensively and much faster than Bisharp, but it doesn't really offer much to teams outside of its offensive presence. It's not the greatest Pursuit trapper because it can't live any hits, it has a very hard time setting up SDs because of its bulk and typing, its very weak to hazards, and its paper thin defenses prevents you from being able to live hits and KO back like Bisharp. It's a huge offensive threat, but not on par with the stuff in A+, and it fits very well with things like Gengar and Zard Y in A.

Starmie: This is a tough one for me. While its offensive set is definitely its best set, and its coverage makes it very difficult to switch into/revenge kill, as a spinner it really sucks how it can only spin like once per game. To be honest I think an all out attacker set would alone make it A- just because with 4 moves it literally has like zero switch-ins and just completely dumps on offensive builds, but even with spin it really doesn't seem enough to push it another rank. It's definitely one of the best Pokemon in A-, if not the best, but it's just really hard to compare it with the other Pokemon found in A. I'll abstain from this one.

Raikou: Kou is pretty garbage right now. Offensively Thundy is definitely the superior Electric-type because it can actually beat Ferro and fat Grounds as well as heavily pressure Lati, while Manec is much faster, stronger, and has a more useful ability. Raikou was really solid when Manec was hyped as fuck and Manaphy was a lot more common, but now it just seems like everything has a way of beating it. Torn-T just knocks it off and heavily cripples it, while Manec just wears it down with hazards + VS and Manaphy can Scald burn it on the switch. It also can't take repeated hits from Talon or Mega Pinsir either. CM is still okay, but fat Ground-types, Ferro, and Exca make it very hard pressed to set up. I don't like Specs at all tbh, a choice locked Electric-type sounds really bad in a sand/Lando infested meta, which is why Thundy and Manec are superior. B+ seems good for it.

Amoonguss: An incredible defensive Pokemon right now, as it is able to check a ridiculous amount of the tier while not losing a shit ton of momentum thanks to Spore. It's definitely more useful overall than Tangrowth, although it may not be as splashable on more offensive builds, it's still amazing on practically everything else and just switches into so many things over and over again with impunity. A- indeed.

Mew: Definitely not A- anymore. Dark spam is crazy right now with Hoopa and friends, and while it's still a very solid stallbreaker and very hard to kill, it's just a lot easier to take advantage of these days. Heatran definitely seems to be the go to stallbreaker these days anyway, as it can actually trap shit with Magma and whittle things down faster.

I already talked about Mega Medi and Latias. Latias to me is easy A, Mega Medi shouldn't be A- until things like Mega Aero and Gyarados are moved down a rank. Mega Alt is also in a similar vein, although I still think Medi and Pinsir are better than it.

 

[MANNAT]

A- --> Stays A-: Raikou is bit underrated in general, mainly because it looks exactly like Jolteon, which is RU, and looks like it's overshadowed by Thundurus. However, Raikou has much better stats overall, allowing it to be useful. Everyone knows that while Rotom-W is an excellent pivot, it's sheer power is below average, and it can't do much other than Volt-Switch and do decent damage with Hydro Pump or annoy with will-o-wisp. Raikou has better stats than Rotom-W and he does about pretty much the same role except faster and less bulky. Hydro pump and Hidden Power Ice hurt and are resisted by the same Pokemon. What makes Raikou shine over Rotom-W is that it serves as an excellent Electric check, checking Thundurus and Mega Manectric, often deadly threats. Rotom-W is easily KO-ed by the two. The advantage of Rotom-W over Raikou is a slow pivot and will-o-wisp, but Raikou serves the other role. I found Specs Raikou pressuing teams much more easily than Rotom-W, Volt-Switching in and out, and it can KO Pokemon more easily. The best set it can run though is the 3 roles set (Calm Mind). Raikou can run all of Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, HP Ice and Calm Mind, allowing it to act as pivot, wall breaker, and sweep in the same set, holy crap! Leftovers is to help nearly match the bulk of Rotom-W while Life Orb lets Raikou hit hard. Overall, Raikou is an excellent A- Pokemon and has a lot of advantages as a Volt-Switcher over Rotom-W and is definitely at least in the same rank as Rotom-W.

This is just wrong... Rotom-Wash and Raikou shouldn't be compared at all. They both acomplish completely different tasks. The only thing that they have in common is that they're two electric types with volt switch. If you're using rotom-wash as an electric check, then you need to see a doctor. Rotom-w is supposed to be a solid ssi/gsi for a lot of physical attackers that rampage around the tier like azu, bisharp, sand exca, mpinsir, etc. Raikou can't switch into these threats at all, and it frankly can't check half of the shit that rotom-w is supposed to check. Granted Raikou is a solid electric check, but there are plenty of other electric checks for offense that are really common and work just fine like the lati twins, scarf lando, sand rush exca, etc. that aren't complete liabilities vs hippo fatshit. You say that rotom-w has power problems, but it's supposed to be a defensive pivot, not an offensive one. Raikou is an offensive pivot, but it hits like a wet paper bag without any CM boosts and specs is way too easy to take advantage of. Specs is extremely prediction reliant, since you are risking losing literally all the momentum for your team whenever you click volt switch or tbolt when a ground type is alive while using hp ice vs something like a keldeo that proceeds to smack you with specs STAB on a prediction can have you lose your electric check and lose the game. CM is a cool wincon and the best set atm, but it doesn't really get any setup opportunities vs offense since its defenses are so shit. leftovers doesn't let you come close to the bulk to rotom-wash since weavile can do 30% more with knock off lol, which is actually a huge difference in bulk. They aren't comparable at all because they accomplish two different tasks, and raikou lacks enough redeeming qualities to be used over other electrics that area generally a lot better than it. Drop to B+ please

 

[Subjugator]

Forgive me if some of my opinions seem like a bandwagon and are unoriginal. But basically everyone said what was obvious before I got to post, so these may have already been stated/implied :3.

Amoonguss from B+ to A-: Agree
I'm not sure if many people are on my side or not, but whatever. Amoonguss is a great pivot in OU that has the bulk to stay afloat in a metagame that is increasingly becoming more offensive. It can check several top-tier offensive threats (and two of the S-Rankers) comfortably. Needless to say, Amoonguss has flaws that are very noticeable, such as virtually no offensive presence, and low speed, and while it's bulk is good, it isn't extreme. However, I feel that it deserves to be up on the level with other A-Rank Pokemon, and it's a really good Pokemon in general. A thumbs-up for me.

Raikou from A- to B+: Agree
Raikou is not receiving much love right now, and I don't really think that it is an outstanding Pokemon in general, let alone be A Rank. It has a lack of stat distribution that makes it dead weight to the team 80% of the time. Referring to the bandwagoning thing, Clair basically said everything else that I had thought about, including bulky Grass Types such as Tangrowth and Amoonguss getting spotlight for the time being. In addition to this, it cannot hit very hard at all and must rely on either Calm Mind or an item to deal any considerate damage, and because of a different environment, it is easily overwhelmed. Specs hits hard but when regarding a lack of a usable offensive movepool, if Raikou generally has to switch out after attacking, and your opponent gets a free turn. In addition, Raikou has pretty terrible bulk that makes it struggle to take hits, even at +1, and is still physically vulnerable.

Bear with my guys. I tried my best thinking everything thoroughly. Spent 4 hours writing this, including fixing typos.

A+ --> Stays A+: If you manage to switch in to this thing safely once, it's pretty much guaranteed to nab a OHKO or 2HKO a pokemon that switch in or do some serious damage. If you're running an all-out attacker set with Icicle Crash / Knock Off / Low Kick / Poison Jab, pretty much nothing can switch. Landorous and other ground and flying types, dead. Fairies, dead. Heatran/Ferrothorn? Takes a chunk load from Low Kick. Half the time, I send this thing in something like Latios and have a 50% chance to kill 2 Pokemon. If your opponent's out of choice scarfers and priority moves or really fast Pokemon like Mega-Lopunny/Manectric, you basically win. On the other hand, if Scarfed Landorous-T comes in, Weavile can run Ice Shard, though Intimidiate might let Landorous-T survive. Choice Scarf Jirachi and Talonflame are the best checks, but nothing else can really take a hit from Weavile. Physical Walls are Knocked Off and are 2KHO-ed with the corresponding move. Now Weavile does have some cons. Obviously, he's pathetically frail, weak to Stealth Rocks, and dies from any attack. Scizor/Mega can come in and Bullet Punch, but they cannot switch in because both take huge damage from Weavile's STABs. Weavile's frailty also makes it very hard to switch into. This can be solved, though, with slow pivots like Defensive Landorous-T, Rotom-W, and Scizor/Mega. In a summary, Weavile is a fearsome attacker checking 80% of the metagame once it's switched in. It requires Volt-Turn and Defog support to function, but it is very threatening with said support given.

I completely appreciate your efforts, but you are vastly overrating Weavile. First saying, there are Pokemon that can switch into Weavile and beat it. Many Pokemon, to be exact. Mega Scizor almost completely counters Weavile (I don't know why you said it takes huge damage from Weavile's STABs because it takes reduced damage from Knock Off and resists Icicle Crash), Klefki paralyzes and walls (even though it cannot do much against it offensively besides Play Rough or Dazzling Gleam I guess), Keldeo resists both of Weavile's STABs and can survive any hit, and then force a switch. Many Choice Scarf Pokemon can outspeed and knock it out, and it has many checks and counters on second thought. Weavile has many more flaws that you stated, but Weavile is just not worthy of A+ Rank anymore in my opinion.

 

[Deathproof17]

Weavile A+--->A

I don't think it should be in A+. It's the odd one out in A+ in that it provides absolutely ZERO defensive utility. Even the other squishy mons in A+ like Zam, MLopunny and Thunderous have passable blk enough to take the hits that they need to. Not to mention Zam can tanks some hits if it gets a nice ability from Trace, Loppunny can sponge random knock offs and sucker punchs, not to mention it resists SR, Thunderous has solid defencive typing that gives it keys resistances to common attacking types like ground and fighting. Weavile has none of that and if it doesn't OHKO something, it will be OHKO'd 90% of the time.

No to mention Mega Scizor stops it cold. Ferrothorn and Keldeo are pains for it and they are everywhere. It can somewhat bypass a lot of it's common checks with SD. It forces switches like crazy, but everything it forces out can easily KO it if they stay in while Weavile sets up a SD. Like what was said before it is a HUGE offensive threat, but it doesn't hit quite hard enough unboosted to completely negate just how frail it is.


Bottom line is that it's monster speed and offencive output is not enough to salvage it's abysmal bulk and defencive typing and A is a better rank for it.

 

[GH[O]ST]

Landorus-T: A+ --> S

Has this been brought up? It seems like one of the most obvious changes in ranking to me.

As far as I can tell, Landorus-T the most versatile and effective Pokemon in the metagame. In a fast paced and hard hitting metagame, Lando T brings the complete package of stat distribution, typing, and ability that allow it to succeed in a variety of roles. This is reflected in the fact that it is the most used pokemon in the metagame (january stats) and by a wide margin if you look at the 1825+ stats.

One of the factors that should push Lando T into S is that forces your opponent to play guessing games as to which of the highly effective sets its running. Lando T can scout, pivot, tank, Knock Off, revenge kill, serve as a vital ground immunity, setup and sweep, set up rocks, and check some of the biggest threats in the metagame. It can fit on any play style and is more splashable than clefable.

 

[baddummy]

Raikou: Should stay in A- I really don't feel Raikou should drop. It still has all the niches it previously had, being a good Thundurus check that can't be prankster thunder waved, being a good Talon check (I haven't seen Jolly SD Flare Blitz for a very long time as I type this, it beats all other sets), and being a good Torn check, which I think is pretty important seeing the increase in usage it has been seeing. Fine, it doesn't hit hard, it never did, but it's ability to pivot around, force something fat like Skarm out and maintain momentum is great. 115 is still fast enough, and just the simple coverage that Thunderbolt + HP Ice provides can still be annoying for offensive teams. Combine that with the ability to Volt Switch as a supposed check comes in, and you'll quickly realise that Lati isn't a particularly good check due to how Raikou maintains momentum. Even something like Kyurem-B won't last the whole game if it comes in on rocks + volt switch damage. Raikou doesn't beat teams by itself, but it can be a nuisance for the majority of playstyles.

Due to how it pivots around when needed, and can cm up when needed, it's actually pretty useful. That being said, the one matchup that Raikou is pretty useless against is Sand, and also if the opponent is using something uncommon like Gastro, Seismitoad, or Quagsire, then it's not doing much either. In order to properly render Raikou useless, a mon has to not only beat it, but completely stop its Volt Switch too. With this in mind, the only reason why I feel Raikou should drop is because of an increase in usage of either sand or the three aforementioned mons, and from what I have seen, although if I'm wrong do correct me, this has not been the case. It has a faster speed stat than Thundurus, and a resistance to electric type attacks, meaning that by using a cm set, it becomes a pretty good check to opposing electrics, the importance of which can't be undersold.

Raikou still checks what it needs to, and while it can't wreck a whole team by itself or punch massive holes, it can maintain momentum by volt switching around and letting you get in pokemon that can, so grass types being more common doesn't necessarily make it worse. Therefore, I think it is unreasonable to drop a pokemon which still has a very solid use in the metagame, unless sand or water/ground types increase significantly in usage.

Starmie: A- -> A As for Starmie, this should rise in my opinion. This is based solely on the merits of Life Orb Analytic Starmie, rather than any defensive set, because those are pretty bad. When looking at Starmie, the thing that is immediately obvious about it is the fact that is a spinner that doesn't require a lot of support, which is hard to come by. Something like Excadrill doesn't really fit that description, because it's bad outside of sand. Therefore, the main competition that Starmie has for its spot are the Latis. Besides the obvious speed increase, Starmie has multiple advantages as to why you might want to use it over Latios:

1) TTar can't just come in and pursuit trap it, because it is OHKO'd by Hydro Pump on the switch-in.
2) When it removes hazards, it only does so from your side of the field, and it does not give Bisharp a defiant boost.
3) It is much more difficult to switch into due to Analytic boosting moves.

I realise Starmie isn't superior to Latios. Due to its frailty, it is very short-lived, and so usually only ends up spinning about once per battle, making it hard to use outside of hard hitting offensive teams that aim to end the battle quickly. It doesn't have nearly as much up-front power as Latios does with 130 sp atk and Draco Meteor. Therefore, I don't think it should be the standard, go-to hazard removal for the majority of teams.

However, despite Starmie's weak 100 sp atk stat, it can punch holes in the opposing team with strong coverage and Analytic boosted hits on switch-ins. The most standard set is Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Rapid Spin, but it can run Psychic to get big damage off on an incoming Gastrodon or Kyurem-B, so it has options. Once you see that it punchs holes pretty consistently, has a strong speed stat, can offer support in rapid spin, and switch into Keldeo once, then it should be pretty clear that this pokemon is A rank, because there are good reasons why you might want to use it over Latios.

Lando-T: A+ -> S I agree very strongly with the Lando T nomination above. Lando offers so much utility in Stealth rock, blanket checking so many physical attackers, and retaining momentum with u-turn. It is very splashable, and the only competition for its role is Rocky Helmet Garchomp. Notice that I've only talked about its defensive set so far.

As for its variety, this just continues to show how much of a clear S rank pokemon it is. Not only can it be a solid defensive backbone for a team, but it can be a powerful revenge killer and momentum grabber in a scarf set, or just a straight up wincon with a double dance set. It can run coverage moves like HP Ice to deal with opposing Lando T, or Explode to something like Slowbro so another pokemon on your team can sweep. With the more fluid definition of S rank, it seems mad to not have one of the most cost effective, highly used, and versatile pokemon in the tier in it, this should have happened sooner. Yes it can be stopped by Skarmory or Rotom-W, but when it stops so much in return, and can just pivot out with u turn as these pokemon come in, then that really shouldn't stop it being S at all.

Reuniclus: B -> B+ Yes, Reuniclus is a solid wincon, and is hard to stop after a cm boost. It might be weak to Dark types, but you should be very reluctant to switch in Bisharp/Ttar when it learns focus blast. It has enough bulk to take some physical hits, and isn't one of the most well prepared for pokemon right now. As for stuff that's changed, Hoopa-U does hold it back, as it is a relatively common pokemon that can come in and basically get a guaranteed kill. However, Reuniclus, despite this downside, still has a decent niche in the current metagame, and so is deserving of B+.

Weavile: A+ -> A Ok, fine. Ice/Dark is threatening coverage, sure, and Weavile is extremely fast. It doesn't have many checks. However, of the checks it does have, most teams carry at least one. More defensive teams carry Skarmory, more offensive teams tend to carry Keldeo or Azu, and good ways of revenging it like Lopunny. Weavile was moved to A+ in the first place, if I remember correctly, because it wasn't very well prepared for, and could really put in a work against a good number of teams in the meta. Things have changed, and now teams are significantly less weak to it. I realise that it can still put in work, and has a good variety of options in the fourth moveslot to throw the opponent off, but now that teams carry more checks to it, and it only has a limited window of time in which it can put in work due to unbelievable frailty, so it can't switch into anything, and a Stealth rocks weakness, meaning that it can be put in range of a lot of priority attacks very easily, it just doesn't seem like a frontrunner in a list of threatening pokemon anymore. It might be worth revisiting later if the metagame shifts, but I don't really see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Albacore]

I do not agree with a Weavile drop at all. And although I kinda do understand why people want it to drop, having it in A+ when it’s such a meta defining and even somewhat centralising Pokemon seems really, really wrong to me. I would much sooner have Bisharp or Hoopa-U drop then Weavile.

So far, all the posts I’ve seen that support a drop either state that it provides nothing defensively, that it’s hurts by Keldeo and Scarf Jirachi’s rise in popularity, or that it flat-out should not have been A+ in the first place. I’m not going to address the last point directly, but I will try my best to explain why I think Weavile is an absolute top-tier threat throughout this post.
For now though, the first of these points. I wouldn’t say that Weavile provides no defensive utility. It’s still able to check dangerous sweepers like Lando-T and Altaria with Ice Shard, as well as other weakened Pokemon, which counts as a defensive application. It can also switch into Psychic and even some Dark moves from the likes of like Latios, Starmie and Hoopa-U, as well as special hits in general from stuff like Gengar, Serperior, and Raikou. And yes, you can argue that its reliance on Life Orb makes it unable to actually switch into anything and have it be worth it. But the exact same thing also applied to Greninja too, and that’s never prevented it from being A+ rank, then S rank, then banned, so I don’t exatly see what the problem is. When something is a strong enough offensive threat, its defensive shortcomings barely matter, and I definitely think that’s true for Weavile.
As for Keldeo being popular, well, that’s always been the case, I don’t really think you can say that Keldeo rising slightly in usage (which I'm not even sure it did) is that much of a significant problem for Weavile when it’s always been a top 5 mon. But more importantly, Keldeo is not actually that great a Weavile counter. It not only can’t really switch in more than once, it also has a 30% chance of not being able to switch in at all due to Icicle Crash flinches. If your only real Weavile answer is Keldeo (which is true for a LOT of teams), you’re probably going to have trouble actually dealing with Weavile whenever you do face it.
In fact, Icicle Crash’s flinch rate is pretty key to Weavile’s effectiveness, and I feel like a lot of people unfairly overlook it. A 30% chance to flinch is really huge and makes Weavile much more difficult to handle in practice than on paper. Not much can eat up 3 hits from Weavile and live to tell the tale, so it if it tries its luck and succeeds, that can decide entire battles. And this, combined with Knock Off removing Leftovers from its switchins, and the fact that most Weavile checks lack reliable recovery, enables it to break past its checks on a consistent basis. And thanks to its excellent speed tier and access to priority, once it does this, there’s barely any stopping it from either dealing irreparable damage to the opposing team or just sweeping it outright, SR weakness or not.
The only answer to Weavile that’s truly immune to all these shenanigans is Mega Scizor, which is admittedly a hard stop to it whose presence makes it literally impossible for Weavile to do anything. But defensive sets are pretty easy to respond to, while offensive MZor gets chipped away by it pretty fast. In fact, it can be KOed by 2 Knock Offs followed by an Ice Shard if it switches in in base form (and if it’s already mega, it’s safe to assume it has already taken damage). So Weavile will almost never be a liability, and it’s capable of putting in a solid amount of work against any non-mega Scizor team. Heck, it can even threaten stall teams that lack MZor. If whatever is sent against it is weakened or gets flinched, it’s probably going to die. Sure, it’s not going to get more than one kill (or two if it’s very lucky), but one unexpected kill is often enough for stall to completely crumble. It’s certainly a bigger potential threat to stall than most of its offense-breaking counterparts which, besides the fact that it completely smashes Lando-T and Garchomp, the go-to bulky glues for offense, sets it apart from them.
As for the argument that Scarf Jirachi is getting better, well, that is admittedly a good point. However, there’s also a few Weavile checks that are getting worse, specifically because Jirachi is getting more popularity as a Steel-type and is therefore pushing them out of the spotlight. Klefki was already covered on this thread, but I personally think Skarmory and even Mega Scizor have gotten a little bit worse. None of these are deserving of a drop though imo (besides maybe Skarmory, but I have yet to make up my mind on that). But even if I’m wrong and these Pokemon are still as good as ever, people still avoid using both Jirachi and any of these Pokemon because their roles are somewhat redundant. More Jirachi means less of these guys, which, if anything, is good for Weavile, since it would much rather deal with a Steel-type that is weak to Knock Off than one that resists it.
Oh, and there is no way in hell Weavile should be in the same rank as Gengar or Kyu-B, both of which are less splashable, more difficult to use, less likely to outlast their checks, less consistent across playstyles, less influential, and arguably less restricting towards teambuilding, especially with offense being so popular. I legitimately have no idea how anyone can consider either of these Pokemon to be on the same level as Weavile.

I hope I didn’t come off as a massive Weavile fanboy here, I’m really not, but I feel very strongly about it staying in A+ nonetheless. It’s just one of those Pokemon you can easily lose to even if you adequately prepare for it, and that, if anything, puts it above anything in A rank.


Small (well, comparatively smaller) paragraph on MLatias : I don’t really think it’s A rank material, although I guess I'm not too opposed to it moving up. Maybe I’m using it wrong or something, and while it’s certainly good and deserving of at least A- rank, I also wasn’t all that impressed by it.
My main problem with it is that it’s not really that reliable at beating a lot of the things it’s supposed to, either due to getting worn down by Volt Switch or status, or due to getting hit by secondary coverage. For example, while it’s supposed to be a Medicham check, it can’t beat Ice Punch variants, and it literally needs to be at full to take on Manaphy, since neither of these Pokemon take that much from TBolt.
That’s another problem with Mega Latias, or more specifically, the BoltBeam set : it’s just too damn weak. Sure, it hits 4x weak and even 2x weak Pokemon very hard because, duh, they’re weak to it. But anything else it really cannot damage that much. bludz mentioned that it’s a pain for offense to handle because of how tricky boltbeam coverage is for that playstyle, which is true to some extent, but when your boltbeam user not only has 0 offense investment (and it really can’t afford to run anything but 248 HP and pretty much full speed) but also lacks an actual STAB, it becomes a lot simpler for offensive teams to switch into. For instance, Weavile, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Metagross, Hoopa-U, MDiancie, MGardevoir, XZard and more can all eat up its moves pretty well, and yes, those can be screwed over by its 4th move, but no matter whether you run Thunder Wave or Reflect Type, there’s always something that can still come in on it easily. Not to mention that many defensive Pokemon just laugh at it, and while it can run Calm Mind to somewhat compound this, it makes it much more vulnerable to offensive threats in return.
Now, passiveness wouldn’t usually be a problem for what is primarily a defensive Pokemon, but when you combine this with its vulnerability to Status, lack of leftovers recovery, and the fact that it takes up a mega slot, I simply don’t see sharing the same rank as, say, MVenu, which makes up for similar flaws by hitting legitimately hard. Then again, I’m judging on the BoltBeam set alone, and I suppose you can argue that the fact that it can bluff its base form makes it harder to adequately respond to, and therefore more effective. However, I haven’t seen a single MLatias team where it wasn’t obvious that Latias was the mega, so any clever player would probably be able to deal with it correctly anyway.

 

[deferentsheep]

Scolipede: B- to B+

Scolipede is a great Pokémon, if you use its Speed Boost like this:

Scolipede @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic Spikes
- Baton Pass

Repeat Protect and Substitute until you get 4x speed, then Baton Pass it to another Pokémon. Otherwise I don't think it's very useful, Speed Boost is its main redeeming feature.

 

[Srn]

Weavile: A+ -> A ye
I never really thought it was an A+ threat to being with, with keldeo getting unreal amounts of usage and stuff like chople tar being a pain in its neck. It gets worn down super fast between rocks weakness, vulnerability to every other hazard, and LO damage. It can absolutely tear through the right kind of teams but I can't compare it, in general, to shit like talonflame, mega zor, or lopunny. It just doesn't do a job as well as any of A+ does, and it should go down.

Mega Altaria: A -> A- na
Mega altaria seems to be getting a ton of hate for its lack of power. DD was noted to struggle with ferro and zor without zone support, and just has a lot of shit to break/weaken like scarf rachi, venu, amoong, skarm, lando-t etc before it can start dragon dancing. If you choose to go fire blast over roost you run into survivability issues so the problems are fair here. DDD struggles heavily with any bulky fairy resist that can do something back, which is most of them, and its super reliant on teammates to get rid of fairy resists. And the special set, the best one, was noted to have lacked the same firepower as mega garde and mega diancie.
All of these points are true but they all overlook its fucking fantastic typing and bulk.
It can check tons of stuff and still have a good amount of offensive presence with ANY of its sets (even uninvested body slams from DDD aren't terribly weak), and mega gardevoir and mega diancie have nowhere near the same level of longevity or bulk that mega altaria offers. The meta may be "shifting away from its favor" or some other BS but mega altaria can work around its checks and the only real hard stop is mega venu imho, which isn't difficult to wear down or pressure with ttar or specs keldeo scald burns or w/e.
Basically don't forget the whole package that mega altaria brings to the table.

Mega Medicham: A -> A- ye
Speaking of whole packages, mega medicham doesn't bring any of that shit. It brings one thing and one thing only: motherfucking power. Mega medi is basically the kind of mon that will do amazing against a build or do nothing. I think the best set rn is hjk / ice punch / thunder punch / fake out. I can already see some smartass typing out "haha love it when my mega medi is walled by clef and mvenu" but first look at these calcs alright

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 162-192 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, fuck psychic coverage :]
It's a really matchup dependent mon, but the only commonly seen mon it struggles mightily against is mega sableye; it can threaten pretty much anything else. While it provides almost nothing defensively, i'd definitely argue its a better wallbreaker than char-y, seeing as it has much more troublesome mons to deal with, like latios, talonflame, bulky wisp zard-x (growing in popularity), and chansey. I'd put it at the same level of char-y considering this, keep it A.


Mega Latias: A- -> A ye
We've already been over this many times and its been discussed to death, lets move it up lol

Starmie: A- -> A na
Definitely not. While offensive starmie is the best rapid spinner in the meta right now, being able to actually prevent rock setters from coming right back in, it lives an extremely short life and is hard pressed to do much vs fat teams. The defensive spinner, on the other hand, is ultra passive and insanely easy to take advantage of. It can spin and it has a nice speedtier / movepool, but its lack of power and bulk means that its simply not on the level of shit like rachi, ttar, and mvenu.

Raikou: A- -> B+ ye
Uh i was the one who proposed this one so ye :] I'll c/p my reasoning

Raikou has seriously taken a hit these past few months. More and more sand balance, more mega latias, more ferrothorns to set spikes and more scarf tars to keep them up, the metagame is seriously unfriendly to raikou right now. Don't get me wrong, calm mind+volt switch is still a lovely set and its still a great check to torn-t, gengar, and thundurus and the like but meta trends are really against it. It was used only 17 times throughout all of OLT playoffs and it's been used ONCE in spl so far. I can see it chillin with celebi, gastro, and heracross-mega, it doesn't belong in A- anymore and it should move down.

Klefki: A- -> B+ na
It's role compression is good, and the people arguing for its drop imo are expecting too much of it. Setting spikes, offering speed control, and checking dragons/fairies not named clef in one slot is already fucking amazing for offense. Offense does have to make up for the fact that klefki's kind of a momentum sponge, but regardless, it performs way too many useful things in one slot to be compared to diggersby or terrakion.

Amoonguss: B+ -> A- ye
Yeah the amount of shit this little shroom checks is insane and it should be A but we'll take baby steps. It's pretty passive once it's spored something but stun spore is a pretty cool option on it too.

Mew: A- -> B+ na
It can still shut down a sizeable amount of offense with its flagship roost/taunt/wisp/knock-off set, and mega sableye isn't all that common with goth being gone and all (that's old news but w/e) I honestly don't have much of an opinion on it because i dont use it too much but nothing in the meta changed to suddenly make it less effective. I'm against a drop for now.

Gyarados: A- -> B+ ye
DD gyarados is pretty matchup based and can clean a surprisingly high number of teams, but it's still horrendously weak after 1 dd and will be hard pressed to get two even vs balance. nat gift cheri berry is a pretty cool set and with some of the right moves it can annoy some fat teams but rotom-w is picking up in popularity and it was never that great, go ahead and drop it.

Togekiss: B+ -> B na
It's still fairly bulky and can check things like mega lopunny, and air slash+np sets still are breaking fat somewhat. While sand balance is getting more popular and togekiss does struggle with that, it has the tools available to handle that too (aura sphere). Even the popularity of rotom-w honestly isn't enough to drop this thing because a +2 togekiss definitely has a good shot at breaking it. It's not as good as it once was but its not as bad as the shit around B like scizor or sharpedo-mega

Mamoswine: B+ -> B na
Definitely not holy shit. Ice/ground stabs are insanely powerful and mamo does not have many safe switch-ins at all between these. But not only can it tear apart balance with just its stabs, it can set rocks and even provide some pretty strong priority, which stops some key threats like thundurus, garchomp, lando-t, and tornadus-t. It's just way too powerful to be compared to something like swampert-mega which isn't much stronger and often doesn't have the room to set rocks. Freeze-dry is also cool for nailing rotom-w and gyara and quag and what not.

Reuniclus: B -> B+ na
I get that reuni is bulky and cm psyshock is yummy and its fairly strong and all that but what exactly has changed for it since it last dropped? If anything, hoopa-u has grown pretty popular, and that popularity is stable now that people know how to use it and aren't just riding the hype train. It's been used 17 times in SPL so far, and has a cool 70.59% winrate to boot (sorta irrelevant but meh). It's always been a decent pick but can anybody explain what exactly has changed enough for us to warrant a raise?

Entei: C+ -> B- na
I'm against a rise only because i find entei can be comparable to nidoking and conk. All 3 are fairly powerful wallbreakers that offer some form of defensive coverage (entei checks zor, nido checks clef, conk checks bish), and Entei isn't better than the other two.

Empoleon: B- -> C+ ya
It has a really nice typing and all but literally all it can do is scald. It can set rocks, defog, phaze, toxic all that pretty stuff but ultimately this thing is just kinda passive :/ It can open itself up to flash cannon and ice beam but it doesn't really fix its problems: its keldeo fodder, eq fodder, electric fodder, etc etc there are some cool sets like shuca i've seen before but I dont have much experience with those. My initial opinion here is drop.

 

[Celticpride]

Volcarona: B+ --> A-

Volc has always been kind of a hit or miss Poke. On one hand, the SR weakness is rather crippling and constricting. On the other hand, Quiver Dance, Fire STAB, and appropriate coverage allows it to power through certain cores rather easily. A few trends contribute to Volc's rise in effectiveness. First, Lando-T becoming the preferred Ground over Garchomp. Garchomp requires significant wearing down for Volc to power through (+1 Bug Buzz against 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 61.6 - 72.8%, and some TankChomp invest in SDef a bit) where Lando-T requires hardly any prior damage (+1 Fire Blast against 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 86.6 - 102%). Second, Mega Altaria's drop in the ranks. By virtue of typing alone, Mega Altaria is a huge headache for Volcarona. Third, Mega Latias' rise in the ranks and in usage. When running Bug Buzz, Volc can beat Mega Latias with little prior damage. Option of a Lum Berry also eliminates the threat of TWave. Lum is probably the best item option now so you don't get crippled by TWave Clefable. There's other, smaller trends that benefit Volc. For example, LO Torn-T is seen as more effective than AV Torn-T (at least that's why Torn-T rose to S iirc). LO Torn-T gets OHKOed by +1 Fire Blast, and AV takes around 70%. Volc is obviously not without issues, such as requiring consistent hazard removal and having a slight issue in moveslots. Depending on HP Ground vs Bug Buzz vs other coverage options, something is always going to handle it. Talonflame, for example, is an omnipresent threat. Heatran and Latis wall it depending on coverage. And it doesn't see a ton of usage in general. However, I think that A- fits Volcarona better than its current B+ rank due to the trends mentioned above.

 

[MANNAT]

Weavile: A+ -> A: I honestly never viewed Weavile as that good to be in A+ the first place. It's easily the most comparable to Bisharp and they both have strong priority and a Dark-typing. However rarely could you actually fill a slot used for Bisharp with Weavile as it offers nothing but the ability to better your matchup against offense for a team unlike Bisharp, who has a very useful typing, still pressures offense through powerful priority, and at the very least respectable bulk. It just doesn't posses that "threat level" that Bisharp or even Hoopa-U possess to keep its place as an A+ level threat. It just pales in comparison towards the other Dark-types available.

If you had a lot of experience with weavile, then you would know that its checks don't hold up as much in practice as they do in theory. Most of its checks lack reliable recovery, and they heat eating knock off for that reason like klefki, tran, azu, keldeo and others. In the 2 former, they get their lefites knocked off and get worn down really quickly by hazards, eventually to the point where they can't switch in. The latter two get their choice items or utility items knocked off and are weakened severely, losing out on a lot of kills like azu vs exca, keldeo vs hoopa, and other shit like that. Also, what you have said doesn't include any recent metagame trends that make weavile have gotten worse than it originally was. The increase of usage of jirachi as a steel type to glue offensive teams together acttually helps weavile, not hurts it since those teams are less liable to run more reliable weav checks like skarm or klefki. The rise in mega latias usage helps it because that means that there is less usage of mega scizor and msab, common weav checks, by extension and it cant really switch in because icicle crash is rip. Additionally, people using lando>chomp as their check to everything is actually nice for weavile since it doesn't take like 30ish percent whenever it uses knock off and that thing switches in when teams are trying to LO stall weavile and it cant get extra chip at all after its rocky helm is knocked off if it's running that. The prevalence of lando>chomp is also nice because it means weavile can be used on more darkspam teams and bisharp can put so much pressure on the opposing team to check it, since garchomp can't be used solely for bisharp and they have to use more dark blanket checks in general so weav has an easier time sweeping. Also, SD Weavile has a huge threat level vs offensive teams because it turns a lot of would be checks into mons that just keel over at weavile. Keldeo, can't take knock+crash, azu, can't take knock+crash, mg clef cant take icicle crash at all, mzor takes 50 from knock being forced to bp, etc. It can really put in work vs offense because of the switches that weavile creates and can easily clean up a lot of weakened offensive teams with its prowess. Also for those saying, "if u sd on a switch, you cant attack ur targets twice", weav can sd vs latis that psyshock predicting the switch into zor or ferro wanting to hp fire and can take dark hits from a lot of mons as well, although getting its LO knocked off is unfortunate. There are things beyond this, and albacore covered a lot of it a page or two back, but you and many others are grossly underestimating weavile and it really shouldn't drop.
Keep Weavile in A+

 

[MANNAT]

i swear this is like my third time linking this post, but nedor already did a fantastic job of summing up a mega latias rise here. he actually proposed it rising to A- when it rising to B+ was the discussion. tl;dr- mega latias should rise to A-.

Mega Latias is A-, it just rose in the most recent slate. Are you using that post as a reasoning that it should rise to A? I'm just kinda confused with what you're trying to say here since it already is A- rank.

 

[Vxy]

I don't really care about a lot of the stuff on the slate so I'll post something that I do care about.

Why is Mega Pinsir not A rank? People are hyping the hell out of Grass types like Breloom, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth right now and we all know Pinsir eats them all up. In general, Flying types are really favoured by this meta right now, especially the physically offensive ones because of Hippowdon dropping a bit in usage (I think, I see less of it now) and being replaced by Landorus-T and Garchomp, both of which are nowhere near as good against Pinsir as Hippo is. Also, Electric types like Raikou and Mega Manectric aren't as popular as they were a couple months ago which is good news for Pinsir. Fighting types like Keldeo, Breloom, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Medicham have shot up in usage and priority Quick Attack is a great weapon for offense to have against them considering they can all be hard for offense to handle. The Adamant variant is better than Jolly right now because of the extra power and offensive Garchomp being not that common. It has speed to outspeed most of what it needs to (although losing to positive natured base 100s sucks) and its power is ridiculous, being able to OHKO SpD Talonflame from full 100% of the time and being able to tank a Brave Bird if need be. This also brings me to my next point, which is bulk. It's bulk is kind of underrated imo. A lot of people say it's frail/just decent but its physical bulk is actually quite impressive, more than you think it'd be. It survives attacks like Mega Metagross' Meteor Mash, Specs Keldeo's Scald/Icy Wind (I don't recommend this unless you need it to), etc. It's just really good right now and a lot of teams best switch ins to this monster is like, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, stuff like that that Pinsir can beat anyways. Garchomp dies to 2 Returns, Rotom-W loses if it switches into rocks + Return and then switches in a second time, and Tyranitar/Ferrothorn get beaten by Close Combat. The meta is very favourable to Pinsir right now, and I think it should be moved up to A to reflect this. Obviously it has flaws like rocks weakness and a slightly disappointing speed tier but imo that's what's keeping it out of A+ (for now at least).

 

[Bice]

Afternoon.

Mega Altaria

A ---> A-: Agree
While Mega Altaria is still a good Pokemon in OU, I definitely think it should drop. Base 80 Speed is simply not enough in the current metagame, and almost every team is prepared for it. Mons such as Talonflame and Clefable are pretty common in the meta, which doesn't do our cloud birb any favors. The rise in sand usage also somewhat hampers it. Another factor is its mediocre power. 110 Attack and Special Attack isn't very powerful, and its coverage moves can't even KO its checks before it gets KO'd. Finally, the rise in Mega Latias usage hurts it, and it faces tough competition from the purple plane-lizard thing. Definitely drop it to A-.

Starmie

A- ---> A: Agree
Starmie has seen a rise in usage for a good reason. It has decent power, a wide movepool which includes Rapid Spin and Boltbeam, and sits at a good speed tier. Speaking of Rapid Spin, there aren't too many viable hazard removers not named Lati@s, nevermind ones that work well on offensive hazard-stacking builds. Most of the Pokemon on sand are weak to Water, and Starmie has access to Hydro Pump and ban this move please Scald. While Starmie definitely has its flaws (and shouldn't rise beyond A imo), I think it's definitely A rank worthy.

Landorus-Therian

A+ ---> S: Agree
Not an official discussion point, but I definitely think Landorus should rise to S. This thing can pull off so many sets, from Defensive to Offensive, making him an excellent glue for teams. He also carries two immunities and a useful resistance to Fighting. With Intimidate, some Pokemon fail to KO Defensive Landorus with their physical coverage moves, even if they're Ice-type, such as Mega Lopunny. Along with that, he has an impressive movepool, most notably carrying U-Turn, Stealth Rock, and Knock Off (and, for whatever reason, Explosion), forcing the opponent to constantly play guessing games, even without factoring the many sets it can run. The rise in sand also helps this thing, as it's probably the number-one sand check in the meta. These excellent traits, in my honest opinion, warrant Landorus to rise to S rank.

Personal proposal: Latias

Proposing A- ---> B+
In my opinion, Latias definitely does not deserve to be in the same rank as her Mega counterpart. Her only niches over Latios are her somewhat superior bulk and Healing Wish (which is a one-time use move). Outside of that, she finds herself outclassed by her brother or her Mega evolution. The rise of sand does not do her any favors either, especially as the most common sand setter is her number-one enemy, Tyranitar. Even with her superior bulk, she suffers the same flaws as Latios (crowded Speed tier, weakness to Knock Off and Pursuit, etc), along with inferior power. Overall, while Latias is still a semidecent Pokemon, putting her in A- overestimates her usefulness imo, and she should probably drop to B+.

EDIT: Bored, so here's a couple more of my thoughts.

Mew

A- ---> B+: Agree
In a tier where Darkspam is running rampant, Mew is struggling more than ever. While being a Defogger not weak to Electric/Ice/Rock is nice, its Psychic typing hurts it more than helps it. Tyranitar is extremely common right now, along with the likes of Hoopa-Unbound and Bisharp (the latter getting an Attack boost from Defog). While Mew isn't terrible in the metagame, the current trends are unfortunately against our favorite pink cat, hence why it should drop to B+.

Klefki

A- ---> B+: Disagree
While Klefki dislikes the rise of bulky grounds like Lando-T, Klefki can remedy this with Prankster Magnet Rise. Aside from that, it's still a good Pokemon in the metagame. Sure, 4MSS is annoying, but it can be worked around. Klefki carries a fantastic combination of Prankster Thunder Wave + Spikes, and has an excellent defensive typing. Overall, while Klefki isn't the best mon in the metagame, I still think it should stay in A-.

Normal Gyarados

A- ---> B+: Agree
This giant sea serpent has fallen from grace recently. Its Dragon Dance set is pretty matchup based, and it possesses an irritating Stealth Rock weakness. It also faces tough competition from its Mega form and Azumarill, both of which have more usable and powerful STABs, as well as more immediate power. Its checks are rising in popularity as well. Overall, it's still a decent Pokemon in the meta, but not decent enough to warrant A- rank. Go ahead and drop it to B+.

 

[GlassVeins]

Can I second the nomination for Landorous-T to rise to S? it's extremely reliable and diverse. I have never once found it to be dead weight on my team. I'm not going to go on and on about its power and speed or its tankiness, cause practically everyone knows about those. I would like to point out one of its excellent sets: its scarf set. On my BO/Balanced team, I usually lead with it because it's just so darn good at grabbing momentum with U-turn. Really, all it has to fear is Mamoswine, and Weavile in this position,though it does have to play around garchomp a bit. I feel that it pairs so well with so many other excellent mons like keldeo, heatran, clefable, azu, etc.

 

[lowborn]

I don't really care about a lot of the stuff on the slate so I'll post something that I do care about.

Why is Mega Pinsir not A rank? People are hyping the hell out of Grass types like Breloom, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth right now and we all know Pinsir eats them all up. In general, Flying types are really favoured by this meta right now, especially the physically offensive ones because of Hippowdon dropping a bit in usage (I think, I see less of it now) and being replaced by Landorus-T and Garchomp, both of which are nowhere near as good against Pinsir as Hippo is. Also, Electric types like Raikou and Mega Manectric aren't as popular as they were a couple months ago which is good news for Pinsir. Fighting types like Keldeo, Breloom, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Medicham have shot up in usage and priority Quick Attack is a great weapon for offense to have against them considering they can all be hard for offense to handle. The Adamant variant is better than Jolly right now because of the extra power and offensive Garchomp being not that common. It has speed to outspeed most of what it needs to (although losing to positive natured base 100s sucks) and its power is ridiculous, being able to OHKO SpD Talonflame from full 100% of the time and being able to tank a Brave Bird if need be. This also brings me to my next point, which is bulk. It's bulk is kind of underrated imo. A lot of people say it's frail/just decent but its physical bulk is actually quite impressive, more than you think it'd be. It survives attacks like Mega Metagross' Meteor Mash, Specs Keldeo's Scald/Icy Wind (I don't recommend this unless you need it to), etc. It's just really good right now and a lot of teams best switch ins to this monster is like, Garchomp, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, stuff like that that Pinsir can beat anyways. Garchomp dies to 2 Returns, Rotom-W loses if it switches into rocks + Return and then switches in a second time, and Tyranitar/Ferrothorn get beaten by Close Combat. The meta is very favourable to Pinsir right now, and I think it should be moved up to A to reflect this. Obviously it has flaws like rocks weakness and a slightly disappointing speed tier but imo that's what's keeping it out of A+ (for now at least).

As much as I'd love to see Mega Pinsir rise, I think the sheer amount of faster / priority pokemon we see used in OU that can survive a +2 Quick Attack or limit its sweeping potential (Klefki (T-wave), Jirachi, Raikou, Mega Manetric, Bisharp (Jolly Life Orb Sucker Punch does 52-62%), Mega Metagross, Mega-Aerodactyl, Mega-Diancie, Mega Scizor, Scizor (CB BP does 50-60%), Talonflame) is just a little bit too much for it right now. And it's not like Magnezone can effectively trap and KO most of these threats I listed. And obviously, its SR weakness hurts and limits its role as a Quick Attack revenge killer.

In comparison to Talonflame, the other 4x SR weak high tier OU mon, Talonflame excels at priority Roosting off hazard damage and filling multiple roles (sweeper, revenge killer, stall breaker). Mega Pinsir's inability to do these sort of things is why I see it sitting in A- right now. It's just a little bit too one dimensional. What I will say is that Mega Pinsir has an important niche as a sweeper against stall teams, especially when paired with Magnezone. You probably won't see any of the pokemon I listed above on a stall team to check Mega Pinsir. Rather, you'll probably see something like Skarmory, which Magnezone traps and KOs with ease. Pretty much all other stall team counters to Mega Pinsir fail miserably, save for Zapdos.