Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Bushtush]

I'll be completely honest, I've been kinda unsure about the direction the metagame is going. I believe it was Acast that said not to long back, "Higher used types are being used more, and lesser used types are being used even less." I feel with the recent Aegislash ban, for Ghost at least this will be more so drastic, and it's beginning to become more evident. Granted, there's reasons as to why a lot of these types are used so less, its because they typically have very strong weaknesses (ones that are prominent in the current metagame) that cause them to typically lose a lot more than they will will, and as what EienSeiryuu was saying, types like Psychic are near fullproof if used right.

I was actually talking to scpinion 1 day just debating about the recent ban, and there's 1 thing in particular that really struck me from our discussion. There used to be a philosophy we had that stated that we'll try our best to make every type at least usable. I noticed it was removed, and during our talk he talked about the integrity of Ghost as if it didn't matter at all. What frustrated me most was that this was a type that was highly doable to ladder with, as numerous people had great success on the ladder (granted it was difficult I could imagine, but very doable). He did mention UU Monotype being a place where these lower used types can thrive, but, its not an Official Metagame, its just a Monotype community-driven one. Yea its fun, but when are you really gonna play this metagame competitively? There's not gonna be a ladder for it, and there will probably be much less tours for it than with the main Monotype Metagame.

The point I want to drive home is, why can't we try to make it so that these types can at least be doable in the current metagame? I'm 9.99 times sure out of 10, people do have bias towards their favorite types, and will often use that the most out of everything. Now I'm not saying we should repeat what we did ages ago unbanning Kyurem-W and Skymin, but why not put this into consideration when we're talking about potentially banning or unbanning a major element out of or into the meta? For example, the problem with Psychic going on right now mentioned above, Ghost could actually flourish to balance that out a bit, and it itself would have more usage. But with the Aegislash ban, its near impossible to ladder with it and do "good." Now you could compare Ghost with Ice in the fact that Scizor completely wrecks it. As mentioned in the OP, even with Scizor banned, Ice would still not do all that good, and Steel would still have a good chance to wreck it, while we nerf a non-broken type. It in the end all depends on with what we were to gain, and what we were to lose. Ghost was by no means broken, and Aegislash alone wasn't, as we know the reason it was originally was banned on Steel was because of the broken Immunity Core it formed. When Aegislash was banned from Ghost now, they lost a key defensive pivot, and one of few Physical/Mixed Attackers, and there isn't really anything that can full proof replace it, and the type's now plummeted in viability.


Tl;Dr I think next time before we make a major decision that could affect the metagame, we put ALL 18 types into consideration. Each one should have the opportunity to be at least usable, and be able to have a chance in the competitive metagame.

You talk about about unbanning mons to help counter the power rise of another type, which is completely off path of what the suspect was about. Hoopa-U was suspected because of its evident prowess across both types. You cant expect to balance every type, some will never be as competetively usable as others, maybe not even come close. The solution is just to work with what you got, if you truly love using a type youll find a way, and you should know, before even starting out competitively with the type, that it might not be as sucsessful competitively as others. Long story short you dont need to consider if ALL types are competitively usable before a decision because that just wont happen.

 

[Dece1t]

You talk about about unbanning mons to help counter the power rise of another type, which is completely off path of what the suspect was about. Hoopa-U was suspected because of its evident prowess across both types. You cant expect to balance every type, some will never be as competetively usable as others, maybe not even come close. The solution is just to work with what you got, if you truly love using a type youll find a way, and you should know, before even starting out competitively with the type, that it might not be as sucsessful competitively as others. Long story short you dont need to consider if ALL types are competitively usable before a decision because that just wont happen.

Ok first off I barely talked about Hoopa, not sure where you got that one from. 2nd of all you try Ghost in tournaments and on the ladder, it's incredibly hard. Not all types rn I can argue are usable.

 

[Zane0144]

While I'm sure there has been discussion on this. What is the stance on unbanning Aegislash and just banning something else on the Steel immunity core? Perhaps Heatran or something? (Just an example) I know Heatran isn't broken persay. But according to the comments neither is Aegislash. One could argue Aegislash is more worthy of a ban, which is true given the fact that it has a great moveset and ability, but for the sake of keeping ghost relevant, it may be worth it to ban something else on steel. There's also the fact that if Heatran were banned, Aegislash would have to fear powerful fire types and would have a harder time setting up at the risk of setting up. And can't just run to Heatran for free negation of damage or burn status.

And I'm sure there are ways for steel to get around fire without Heatran. It would be harder yes, but options surely exist. That's my opinion at least. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I won't pretend I know the steel meta all too well compared to others. My reason for this post is more what I asked at the beginning. What is the stance on it? Not trying to get a heatran ban. (atm)

 

[Zap]

While I'm sure there has been discussion on this. What is the stance on unbanning Aegislash and just banning something else on the Steel immunity core? Perhaps Heatran or something? (Just an example) I know Heatran isn't broken persay. But according to the comments neither is Aegislash. One could argue Aegislash is more worthy of a ban, which is true given the fact that it has a great moveset and ability, but for the sake of keeping ghost relevant, it may be worth it to ban something else on steel. There's also the fact that if Heatran were banned, Aegislash would have to fear powerful fire types and would have a harder time setting up at the risk of setting up. And can't just run to Heatran for free negation of damage or burn status.

And I'm sure there are ways for steel to get around fire without Heatran. It would be harder yes, but options surely exist. That's my opinion at least. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I won't pretend I know the steel meta all too well compared to others. My reason for this post is more what I asked at the beginning. What is the stance on it? Not trying to get a heatran ban. (atm)

well the reason for the aegislash ban was to be consistent with the no complex ban rule. Aegislash was the only outlier, and people were complaining how its not fair that Aegislash gets to stay to keep ghost good, but Kyurem-W was banned and now ice has to suffer. Either way, personally im happy with the aegislash ban, because atleast it shows that the council is not using bias for their bans, and that they are consistent with what they say.

As for heatran, no, I really dont think the 2 compare. Atleast with aegislash, you can still have doublade, and there are other users who are doing okay without Aegislash (**atleast from what I have seen**) Not saying its amazing or theyre perfect without it, it definitely cripples ghost, but its not completely destroying the type. Heatran however, is the only thing stopping scarf fire type moves from completely destroying steel teams. There really is no replacement for it, and the type would suffer so much that it's not even worth comparing it to Aegislash. The only thing i can think of is Empoleon, but even then, thats not much.

 

[Dece1t]

While I'm sure there has been discussion on this. What is the stance on unbanning Aegislash and just banning something else on the Steel immunity core? Perhaps Heatran or something? (Just an example) I know Heatran isn't broken persay. But according to the comments neither is Aegislash. One could argue Aegislash is more worthy of a ban, which is true given the fact that it has a great moveset and ability, but for the sake of keeping ghost relevant, it may be worth it to ban something else on steel. There's also the fact that if Heatran were banned, Aegislash would have to fear powerful fire types and would have a harder time setting up at the risk of setting up. And can't just run to Heatran for free negation of damage or burn status.

And I'm sure there are ways for steel to get around fire without Heatran. It would be harder yes, but options surely exist. That's my opinion at least. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I won't pretend I know the steel meta all too well compared to others. My reason for this post is more what I asked at the beginning. What is the stance on it? Not trying to get a heatran ban. (atm)

It's not a terrible thought tbh man, but I wouldn't do that because Heatran isn't broken at all (its actually vital for Steel to thrive). However, the 1 point about perhaps at least trying Aegislash on Steel very well may not be a terrible idea (please note I said try, not unban it right here or now, because I really can't say for sure). ORAS is about to end at the end of the year, why not toy around with something while it still lasts, the meta has definitely changed in the example with Flying's Skarm-Dos core, who knows the Aegi-Heatran-Skarm core may not be as broken as we're making it out to be. But, we'd need to play around with it and have some replays to know for sure tbh.

 

[Zap]

It's not a terrible thought tbh man, but I wouldn't do that because Heatran isn't broken at all (its actually vital for Steel to thrive). However, the 1 point about perhaps at least trying Aegislash on Steel very well may not be a terrible idea (please note I said try, not unban it right here or now, because I really can't say for sure). ORAS is about to end at the end of the year, why not toy around with something while it still lasts, the meta has definitely changed in the example with Flying's Skarm-Dos core, who knows the Aegi-Heatran-Skarm core may not be as broken as we're making it out to be. But, we'd need to play around with it and have some replays to know for sure tbh.

I like the toying around idea, but I think on the origin server, there is a sub meta called monotype-type bans where they are doing exactly that, testing the meta with complex bans and seeing how it goes. Personally I think that's a great idea, and could use more attention to give it more practice.

 

[Anttya]

While I'm sure there has been discussion on this. What is the stance on unbanning Aegislash and just banning something else on the Steel immunity core? Perhaps Heatran or something? (Just an example) I know Heatran isn't broken persay. But according to the comments neither is Aegislash. One could argue Aegislash is more worthy of a ban, which is true given the fact that it has a great moveset and ability, but for the sake of keeping ghost relevant, it may be worth it to ban something else on steel. There's also the fact that if Heatran were banned, Aegislash would have to fear powerful fire types and would have a harder time setting up at the risk of setting up. And can't just run to Heatran for free negation of damage or burn status.

And I'm sure there are ways for steel to get around fire without Heatran. It would be harder yes, but options surely exist. That's my opinion at least. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. I won't pretend I know the steel meta all too well compared to others. My reason for this post is more what I asked at the beginning. What is the stance on it? Not trying to get a heatran ban. (atm)

Currently on mobile rn so I can't write as much, but wouldn't a Skarmory ban be better overall? That way we don't screw over Fire as much while nerfing Flying by breaking the skarmdos core. Steel has Aegislash for Fighting and Ferrothorn for Ground so it won't be hurt too much by the ban. However, Flying will be forced to go offensive, or run Defensive Mega Gyara to alleviate the Rock / Ice weakness

And we nerf Psychic along the way because more aegi + bisharp cores = less Psychic monos.

Not saying we should do anything, just offering an alternative to a heatran ban :p

 

[Wanka]

Piggy banking on the topic of psychic being the driving force in the meta as of late, I've been spamming as well as seeing a shitton of fairy on the ladder as of late and for good reason too. Fairy matches up extremely well against psy and a lot of the commonly uses higher ladder types. The drum core has been as threatening as always and calm mind clefable along with support toge sets are absolute headaches for offensive teams to deal with. If you glance and the top 8 types, (dark, drag, bug, fighting, water, steel, flying, psy) fairy matches up well against pretty much all of those types bar steel. Flying can be tough sometimes but diancie and clef + a drum mon make that matchup very winnable. Even if it can be a tough matchup at times, flying is becoming less and less prevelant as ORAS winds down so I'd still give fairy the benefit of the doubt. But yeah, it matches up well against some of the most common ladder types and has been slowly picking up steam as of late. It defo exceeds any and all expectations of a 4% used type. It also holds some decent versatility as a whole which is what I like. Lots of fairy mons can fufill several roles and fufill them successfully to help with certain matchups as a whole. TR fairy is also an extremely underrated aspect of fairy and it absolutely dicks and offensive style it goes up against and modest garde just rips balance builds to shreds.

mini fairy rant.

Another meta shift that I've noticed is the depletion in fighting usage. The 1630 Glicko range might not show it because fighting has been known to be pretty foolproof vs a good portion of the middle and lower tier types but the 1730 Glicko range and up will probably show that fighting simply just isn't used once you approach 1600 elo. There simply can be no consistency with a type that struggles with a most prominent type in the tier right now along with having sub par/average matchups against the rest of the top 8 types. But for a type that was consistently top 3 or 4 in usage for quite some time, I can whole heatedly say the complete opposite I said about fairy. Fighting absolutely does not meet the expectations of a consistent top 3 or 4 type and the drop off has deservedly happened.

mini fighting rant.

As a whole, yes, people are spamming the fuck out of psychic but its not like we don't know how to combat it. We are all adapting fine and it's good tht people are figuring out ways to combat it and punish the standard psy builds. They aren't invincible and everything seems to still be pretty balanced.

(P.S. Poison and Grass and stupidly underrated and should be used more. They too have some good matchups against some common ladder types when played well.)

 

[Zane0144]

Skarm could work, although I know there has never been a chance of banning Skarm in that past. But I guess that's the thing, everyone always says Flying "needs" Skarm, steel "needs" Heatran, Bug "needs" Scizor. I understand these are all great types with well established builds. But, if ghost "needs" Aegislash, then it just seems like something else could take a hit for once. I know I'm asking a lot. Considering a ban for these mons in particular has been a very touchy issue in the past. But if Steel and even Flying are as versatile of types as they advertise, wouldn't they be able to kick back from a tough ban better than how ghost is suffering now?

Although I do see the other side, it would be biased of me not to mention this, we can't just keep banning/unbanning mons just to make weaker types better. I know it's not possible or plausible and I wouldn't suggest it in the past. But I see this as one special case, because the problem isn't Aegislash. We aren't trying to unban a broken mon. Aegislash is being banned because Steel needs a nerf. And if it's all agreed that Steel definitely needs a nerf because of the core Aegislash helps form, the I'm just asking to consider that something else from the core receive the boot instead. Nerf steel in a way less harmful to ghost.

Anyway, I know Sun and Moon are coming out soon and that should change the meta up a lot. So, I'm not too worried.

 

[DoW]

Back when we were doing the series of bans/unbans that led to zapdos being unbanned etc., the idea of banning something else on the steel immunity core did come up with Skarm being the frontrunner. However, we decided against it IIRC because that would cause Flying to be 6-0'd by things like Cloyster. Heatran is another option, but you've got to ask whether Fire losing Heatran would be a better scenario in any way to Ghost losing Aegi.

 

[Eien]

Piggy banking on the topic of psychic being the driving force in the meta as of late, I've been spamming as well as seeing a shitton of fairy on the ladder as of late and for good reason too. Fairy matches up extremely well against psy and a lot of the commonly uses higher ladder types. The drum core has been as threatening as always and calm mind clefable along with support toge sets are absolute headaches for offensive teams to deal with. If you glance and the top 8 types, (dark, drag, bug, fighting, water, steel, flying, psy) fairy matches up well against pretty much all of those types bar steel. Flying can be tough sometimes but diancie and clef + a drum mon make that matchup very winnable. Even if it can be a tough matchup at times, flying is becoming less and less prevelant as ORAS winds down so I'd still give fairy the benefit of the doubt. But yeah, it matches up well against some of the most common ladder types and has been slowly picking up steam as of late. It defo exceeds any and all expectations of a 4% used type. It also holds some decent versatility as a whole which is what I like. Lots of fairy mons can fufill several roles and fufill them successfully to help with certain matchups as a whole. TR fairy is also an extremely underrated aspect of fairy and it absolutely dicks and offensive style it goes up against and modest garde just rips balance builds to shreds.

mini fairy rant.

Another meta shift that I've noticed is the depletion in fighting usage. The 1630 Glicko range might not show it because fighting has been known to be pretty foolproof vs a good portion of the middle and lower tier types but the 1730 Glicko range and up will probably show that fighting simply just isn't used once you approach 1600 elo. There simply can be no consistency with a type that struggles with a most prominent type in the tier right now along with having sub par/average matchups against the rest of the top 8 types. But for a type that was consistently top 3 or 4 in usage for quite some time, I can whole heatedly say the complete opposite I said about fairy. Fighting absolutely does not meet the expectations of a consistent top 3 or 4 type and the drop off has deservedly happened.

mini fighting rant.

As a whole, yes, people are spamming the fuck out of psychic but its not like we don't know how to combat it. We are all adapting fine and it's good tht people are figuring out ways to combat it and punish the standard psy builds. They aren't invincible and everything seems to still be pretty balanced.

(P.S. Poison and Grass and stupidly underrated and should be used more. They too have some good matchups against some common ladder types when played well.)

I want to share my experience with Fighting on the ladder in agreement with your mini rants. I recently laddered to top 10 going 43-6 with 87 GXE with Fighting only (Peaked rank 5 at 1742). I can only wish I had kept matchup statistics on my run, but of course with variance and what not I find this to be anecdotal at best.

I found literally 0 steel teams. In just under 50 games, I battled not ONE team that was the #3 usage type. One of the few matchups us Fighting mains aren't predicted to lose, and there were none. This was especially surprising considering the popularity of HO Steel during the Hoopa-U Suspect. I can say with high certainty (and great surprise) the type I battled most was Fairy, followed by either Psychic or Bug. Flying and SS Water get honorable mention.

I find this to be very in sync with your analysis of the metagame. If I wasn't attempting to make a Fighting-only run, I absolutely would have switched types, as Fighting naturally has a bad matchup against all of these. Whether it's conscious or not, the ladder metagame has definitely shifted towards Fairy significantly and away from Fighting.

That being said, isn't Fairy's success against Psychic more an abuse of the lack of Psychic preparation against Fairy? (Wow was that worded awkwardly!) Psychic is likely more interested in defeating its common problems such as Bug, Dark, and Steel. The high flexibility the common cores I described could easily be adapted to defeat Fairy. Running Gunk Shot Hoopa-U, Jirachi in the flex spot, and a few other key choices could easily close this current advantage Fairy has. Other than Psychic potentially edging out ahead, I 100% agree the metagame is in a balanced state right now.

Skarm could work, although I know there has never been a chance of banning Skarm in that past. But I guess that's the thing, everyone always says Flying "needs" Skarm, steel "needs" Heatran, Bug "needs" Scizor. I understand these are all great types with well established builds. But, if ghost "needs" Aegislash, then it just seems like something else could take a hit for once. I know I'm asking a lot. Considering a ban for these mons in particular has been a very touchy issue in the past. But if Steel and even Flying are as versatile of types as they advertise, wouldn't they be able to kick back from a tough ban better than how ghost is suffering now?

Although I do see the other side, it would be biased of me not to mention this, we can't just keep banning/unbanning mons just to make weaker types better. I know it's not possible or plausible and I wouldn't suggest it in the past. But I see this as one special case, because the problem isn't Aegislash. We aren't trying to unban a broken mon. Aegislash is being banned because Steel needs a nerf. And if it's all agreed that Steel definitely needs a nerf because of the core Aegislash helps form, the I'm just asking to consider that something else from the core receive the boot instead. Nerf steel in a way less harmful to ghost.

Anyway, I know Sun and Moon are coming out soon and that should change the meta up a lot. So, I'm not too worried.

I actually think Steel is perfectly fine as it is right now. I think banning Skarmory for the simple reason of trying to nerf Flying, causing an unban of Aegislash in return for Steel, causing a reduced popularity in Psychic is a rather over the top solution for Flying and Psychic potential dominance. The collateral changes in the metagame would be greatly felt by most types and without thinking too deeply, I doubt it'd end up being a net positive result.

Actually, speaking of nerfing Flying, is Flying even actually that powerful right now? Usage does not always imply strength. I was not very impressed with Flying performance in MPL. There, like in ladder, Fairy was extremely dominant. I'm not sure Flying even needs to be nerfed at all. And even as a Fighting main, I do not actually find Flying to be a strictly challenging matchup unless they run some team like Gliscor, Skarm, Zapdos, Togekiss that decimates me. (Shoutouts to Sabella for making the only team I just want to click X against. Why do I still see that old monster on the ladder?) I'm not saying Flying isn't powerful, but I can't see it being a type that needs nerfing.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

well, can't believe we are going as far as talking onto banning something on other types to come up with an idea of unbanning something that could give more viability to one type. I thought you guys didn't like complex bans lol.

In all seriousness, the discussion on this last page points at, whether you like to admit or not, how type bans made sense and how avoiding "complex" bans is ironically more complex unless you want the meta to drift away into psychic spam. Even as an Ice user, I'm not in favor of unbanning Kyurem-W, because the pokemon itself is far ahead of what the meta can handle regardless of the shitty type he is in. Other mons on the contrary greatly depend on the support/teammates they got (M-Sab in dark vs ghost, Aegis in ghost vs steel). Narrow minded philosophies aside, I hope when the new gen comes up we decide as a whole rather than leaving this to one or two individuals because it greatly affects the meta without bringing any favorable consequence other than a label (we official yay, oh wait not yet)

 

[Day Healer]

Currently on mobile rn so I can't write as much, but wouldn't a Skarmory ban be better overall? That way we don't screw over Fire as much while nerfing Flying by breaking the skarmdos core. Steel has Aegislash for Fighting and Ferrothorn for Ground so it won't be hurt too much by the ban. However, Flying will be forced to go offensive, or run Defensive Mega Gyara to alleviate the Rock / Ice weakness

And we nerf Psychic along the way because more aegi + bisharp cores = less Psychic monos.

Not saying we should do anything, just offering an alternative to a heatran ban :p

Skarm could work, although I know there has never been a chance of banning Skarm in that past. But I guess that's the thing, everyone always says Flying "needs" Skarm, steel "needs" Heatran, Bug "needs" Scizor. I understand these are all great types with well established builds. But, if ghost "needs" Aegislash, then it just seems like something else could take a hit for once. I know I'm asking a lot. Considering a ban for these mons in particular has been a very touchy issue in the past. But if Steel and even Flying are as versatile of types as they advertise, wouldn't they be able to kick back from a tough ban better than how ghost is suffering now?

It's funny, because I have though myself a lot about a Skarmory ban in both Flying and Steel. This ban alone could balance flying (making it less defensive) and balance Steel immunity core (however reintroducing Aegislash into the meta). And with the Aegislash unban ghost could be great again. Also like Anttya said, unbanning Aegislash could balance Psychic as well. This all sounds almost too easy to do and could help the metagame a lot.

But then again Skarmory isn't inherently broken, only the cores which it creates are the ones unhealtly (not for nothing both flying and steel had problems with defensive cores in the past, both with skarmory on them). So just putting it there like food for though:

"could banning a mon like skarmory benefit the meta more even if it isnt broken in se, but the cores which it creates?"

​

Edit: if only there could be a way to test a skarm less meta with aegislash in, like we did testing blaziken in mono back in the past.

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The untouched Psychic cores are probably the strongest in the post Hoopa-U Suspect metagame. I'm talking about the two cores Slowbro / Mew and Mega Gardevoir / Victini / Hoopa-U (On a side note, Mega-Medicham is also incredibly powerful in the offensive core). These cores happen to support each other very well, and also receive amazing support from flex Pokemon like Jirachi, Latias, and Latios.

I want to discuss these two cores from a purely defensive point of view (mainly because I'm verbose and this was way too long already).

First, the defensive core of Slowbro / Mew is incredibly difficult to break. Slowbro is one of the premier physical walls across all types. Slowbro's biggest weaknesses are super effective moves primarily coming from special attackers or set up sweepers. This is where Mew is a beautiful complement to Slowbro. Mew eats up special attacks with absolutely no problem. Mew can switch into most STAB neutral special attacks to deflect off of Slowbro. Some slower physically based sweepers can eat a crippling Will-o-Wisp from Mew. These two also have incredible support options, boasting very reliable recovery and status. Mew can further set rocks, Defog, Taunt, and even Heal Bell.

To go further, the offensive core still provides defensive utility. All three of Mega Gardevoir, Victini, and Hoopa-U have respectable defenses in some way. Mega Gardevoir and Hoopa-U have phenomenal Special Defense, and Victini shares the 100/100/100 defenses that Mew has. These three Pokemon carry key resistances to Psychic weaknesses. With naturally good base defenses, the offensive core is seriously supporting the already formidable Slowbro / Mew core.

If we consider potentially having specially defensive Jirachi, Assault Vest Meloetta, or even just the resistances Latias and Latios bring in our flex spot, the team is melding together very nicely.

The core only has a few weaknesses. Teams running Mega Gyarados threaten sweeping completely. Teams that have both Volcarona and Mega Scizor put enough pressure on Victini to threaten one of them will sweep, which non-Mega Scizor teams fail to do. The HO Steel pressures the team hard enough for one of the potential sweeps to succeed. It is nevertheless possible to play around these problems with options such as Colbur Berry, Trace Gardevoir, Will-o-Wisp Mew, and others.

To cut this short, I'll briefly note how ridiculous the offensive core is in the offensive sense. Wallbreaker Mega Gardevoir, Scarf V-create from Victini, and Band/Specs/LO Hoopa-U will rip huge holes through every team. Slightly off topic, but this is especially true of Specs Hoopa-U, which even the OU tier is currently struggling with.

What can be done about these Psychic cores? After the Hoopa-U suspect, I'm not sure where to look next, beyond perhaps Mew, which notably doesn't address the problems with the offensiev core. I would find it difficult to target Mega Gardevoir or Victini to suspect if Hoopa-U's suspect ended in a no ban vote. Slowbro is also far from banworthy in my opinion, as it is simply tremendously supported by a team of specially defensive Pokemon. Nevertheless I would feel very uncomfortable if we do not at least scrutinize this type and its cores.

/rant
I continue to repeat which we losed a great opportunity to balance our tier when Hoopa-U wasn't banned
/end of rant

 

[Tylacto]

Not directly on topic but I'm sure the new usage stats for March shed some light here and there.

These are 1630 weighted, and I understand they are not 100% spot on but looking at previous months they hardly vary more than 1 decimal place at the most so that's what I'll round them to. Direct link:
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-03/metagame/monotype-1630.txt

Psychic: 10.3%
Water: 9.1%
Flying: 9.0%
Fighting: 8.2%
Bug: 8.2%
Steel: 7.5%
Dark: 6.2%
Dragon: 6.0%
Ground: 5.5%
Normal: 5.4%
Fairy: 4.5%
Grass: 3.7%
Ghost: 3.4%
Fire: 3.3%
Ice: 2.9%
Poison: 2.7%
Electric: 2.4%
Rock: 1.8%

I'll post the 1760 weighted stats too as I think it's interesting how they vary from the above.

Higher Ladder 1760 weighted stats

Link:
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-03/metagame/monotype-1760.txt

Psychic: 16.5%
Flying: 11.7%
Water: 9.4%
Steel: 8.3%
Dragon: 7.2%
Dark: 7.1%
Ground: 6.9%
Fighting: 6.6%
Bug: 5.6%
Fairy: 4.5%
Normal: 3.5%
Fire: 2.6%
Grass: 2.6%
Ghost: 1.7%
Rock: 1.6%
Ice: 1.5%
Poison: 1.4%
Electric: 1.3%

 

[The Original Syn]

I, for one, 100% support a Skarmory suspect, providing that also comes with an Aegislash suspect. Balancing Psychic is extremely important because that usage is absolutely ridiculous. One type out of 18 shouldn't be having one-sixth of the overall usage. That is not healthy at all, I'm sure we can all agree.

Forcing Steel to remove its immunity core and go more offensive seems very interesting. I've always been of the belief that Steel was the most diverse type and had the most viable options. Banning one for the benefit of everything else does intrigue me.

If we do this, are we allowing Aegis back on just Ghost? It's slightly bothering me because I do not want to see both Steel and Psychic dominating the entire metagame. The Hoopa-U vs Aegi 1v1 would be something special.

On the topic of the Hoopa-U suspect, I never saw what all the fuss was about. I used Hoopa-U on my Psychic team but never actually got to use it. The rest of my team was either too good to win the battle without needing Hoopa or got decimated before Hoopa could make a difference. Whether this is down to me not using it properly or it not being as broken as everyone said, I don't know. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks on the matter, especially other Psychic users.

 

[DoW]

I, for one, 100% support a Skarmory suspect, providing that also comes with an Aegislash suspect. Balancing Psychic is extremely important because that usage is absolutely ridiculous. One type out of 18 shouldn't be having one-sixth of the overall usage. That is not healthy at all, I'm sure we can all agree.

Uh, it doesn't. 1/6 = 16.666...%. Psychic is at 10.26%. One type out of 18 has 1/10 of the overall usage, which is a far smaller problem, and frankly I'm not convinced we need to step in to sort things out.

Like I've said, the idea of banning skarm and unbanning aegi isn't a new one, and I remember discussing it on two seperate previous occasions. On both, the fact that Flying would just insta-lose to certain threats made it the worse option, despite it having some nice positives.

On the topic of the Hoopa-U suspect, I never saw what all the fuss was about. I used Hoopa-U on my Psychic team but never actually got to use it. The rest of my team was either too good to win the battle without needing Hoopa or got decimated before Hoopa could make a difference. Whether this is down to me not using it properly or it not being as broken as everyone said, I don't know. I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks on the matter, especially other Psychic users.

Sounds to me like you're not high enough on the ladder. Try facing some more challenging opponents where you're forced to use your whole team in order to win, that should give you a better understanding of the metagame in general.

 

[Misaka Mikoto]

It's funny, because I have though myself a lot about a Skarmory ban in both Flying and Steel. This ban alone could balance flying (making it less defensive) and balance Steel immunity core (however reintroducing Aegislash into the meta). And with the Aegislash unban ghost could be great again. Also like Anttya said, unbanning Aegislash could balance Psychic as well. This all sounds almost too easy to do and could help the metagame a lot.

But then again Skarmory isn't inherently broken, only the cores which it creates are the ones unhealtly (not for nothing both flying and steel had problems with defensive cores in the past, both with skarmory on them). So just putting it there like food for though:

"could banning a mon like skarmory benefit the meta more even if it isnt broken in se, but the cores which it creates?"

​

Edit: if only there could be a way to test a skarm less meta with aegislash in, like we did testing blaziken in mono back in the past.


/rant
I continue to repeat which we losed a great opportunity to balance our tier when Hoopa-U wasn't banned
/end of rant

I, for one, 100% support a Skarmory suspect, providing that also comes with an Aegislash suspect. Balancing Psychic is extremely important because that usage is absolutely ridiculous. One type out of 18 shouldn't be having one-sixth of the overall usage. That is not healthy at all, I'm sure we can all agree.

That's really not the point. This becomes a more different scenario in testing. Unlike Blaziken, you're getting rid of one Pokemon for the sake of replacing it with another just to support two types in countering 1 type alone. That really shouldn't be the way to do this at all. Testing Ghost with Doublade for some time, Ghost still do pretty good against Psychic. The only difference is that you can't use Kings Shield and the fact you're not a mixed attacker either.

As for Steel and Flying, what is the point of getting rid of Skarmory? In my defense, you're removing Steel's main Ground immunity and hazard setter. Please don't tell me that Bronzong is the next best thing for Steel either because I highly doubt that anybody would use it, nor would I as well. Flying would have one less main hazard setter / phazer. Who should we result to next, Aerodactyl? It's only good as a lead in setting hazards and dying soon after.

What you're doing is actually an unhealthy way of solving the problem. Instead of trying to go the route in bringing a in Pokemon that'll "possibly" not have a positive outcome to this situation, utilize what you have instead because I know there's more than one way.

 

[The Original Syn]

A Skarm suspect is far from necessary but for experimental purposes, I'd love to see what happens when you remove Skarmory and unban Aegislash, especially from Steel's vantage point. The hindrance that Flying suffers has to be less than the benefits both Steel and Ghost gain for it to make any sense.

How you would quantitatively measure that is beyond me. That probably involves a hell of a lot of match up testing. Should it come down to it, I'm more than happy to assist.

 

[Eien]

A Skarm suspect is far from necessary but for experimental purposes, I'd love to see what happens when you remove Skarmory and unban Aegislash, especially from Steel's vantage point. The hindrance that Flying suffers has to be less than the benefits both Steel and Ghost gain for it to make any sense.

How you would quantitatively measure that is beyond me. That probably involves a hell of a lot of match up testing. Should it come down to it, I'm more than happy to assist.

Can you more concretely explain what the problem with the status quo is, and why your recommendation would produce a superior metagame? If what we have is better than the alternative, why should we change?

Is your problem with Steel, Flying, or Psychic? Your first post made some comments about Psychic being an issue, and how Steel should be weakened for the sake of other types. Now here you're talking about weakening Flying to benefit Steel. It seems all over the place, and makes it difficult to understand what you're saying. It'd be great if you could make it very clear and specific what exactly is the problem.

Generally, it seems completely backwards to suspect a perfectly balanced Pokemon so that you can unban something far more problematic. It's not like Flying or Steel are overpowered types either. High usage does not make them overpowered. I'd say both are balanced as it is right now and doing something so elaborate would more likely unbalance things than otherwise.

 

[ed wins]

That's really not the point. This becomes a more different scenario in testing. Unlike Blaziken, you're getting rid of one Pokemon for the sake of replacing it with another just to support two types in countering 1 type alone. That really shouldn't be the way to do this at all. Testing Ghost with Doublade for some time, Ghost still do pretty good against Psychic. The only difference is that you can't use Kings Shield and the fact you're not a mixed attacker either.

As for Steel and Flying, what is the point of getting rid of Skarmory? In my defense, you're removing Steel's main Ground immunity and hazard setter. Please don't tell me that Bronzong is the next best thing for Steel either because I highly doubt that anybody would use it, nor would I as well. Flying would have one less main hazard setter / phazer. Who should we result to next, Aerodactyl? It's only good as a lead in setting hazards and dying soon after.

What you're doing is actually an unhealthy way of solving the problem. Instead of trying to go the route in bringing a in Pokemon that'll "possibly" not have a positive outcome to this situation, utilize what you have instead because I know there's more than one way.

As I was catching up on the comments, this is exactly what I was thinking. Instead of attempting to ban Skarmory for an even smaller chance to unban Aegislash to make Ghost easier to use, why don't we suspect test Aegislash in attempt to unban him instead? Originally, Aegislash was banned due to the supermajority of us feeling like the Immunity Core, with the addition of Aegislash over Doublade, was addition "broken." While I can both agree and attest to both those claims and feelings, I can also agree that the tier and player base has greatly widened. As such, I believe that we are now in a meta where the entirety of the Immunity Core can thrive or dominate while not overwhelming the metagame ass much it used to.

PS after messing around with mega aeroaero, I can say it is a superb mon in this tier. Taunt extremely eases your matchup versus Flying and Pursuit can trap threats such as Victini and Gengar whilst dealing valuable chip damage to threats such as Medicham, Thundurus, Patios, and Hoopa. Access to coverage moves to hit just about anything you want to, Roost for longevity, Tailwind, solid bulk, respectable offenses, and incredible speed make this thing 10/10

 

[Dece1t]

As I was catching up on the comments, this is exactly what I was thinking. Instead of attempting to ban Skarmory for an even smaller chance to unban Aegislash to make Ghost easier to use, why don't we suspect test Aegislash in attempt to unban him instead? Originally, Aegislash was banned due to the supermajority of us feeling like the Immunity Core, with the addition of Aegislash over Doublade, was addition "broken." While I can both agree and attest to both those claims and feelings, I can also agree that the tier and player base has greatly widened. As such, I believe that we are now in a meta where the entirety of the Immunity Core can thrive or dominate while not overwhelming the metagame ass much it used to.

PS after messing around with mega aeroaero, I can say it is a superb mon in this tier. Taunt extremely eases your matchup versus Flying and Pursuit can trap threats such as Victini and Gengar whilst dealing valuable chip damage to threats such as Medicham, Thundurus, Patios, and Hoopa. Access to coverage moves to hit just about anything you want to, Roost for longevity, Tailwind, solid bulk, respectable offenses, and incredible speed make this thing 10/10

Not a bad thought Ed, but its risky. I agree with you, especially relating to the case of Skarmory+Dos that the meta could very well be able to adjust, and it may very well be weaker than it once was in XY, but my fears are it may still be over-centralizing. Aegislash has outstanding mixed offensive capabilities, as well as having the ability to lower an opponent's attack by .5x if hit by a contact move. It's not a terrible notion to at least maybe go for a suspect, but I can honestly only imagine how dangerous it could potentially get.

 

[Fírnen]

I'd like start a conversation about Volcanion, this new legendary Pokemon has been released few days ago.

• Volcanion types analysis:
Fire/Water type is certainly a very good type for both type.
- 3 weaknesses: Electric, Ground, Rock
- 5 resistances: Bug, Fairy, Fire, Ice, Steel
- 1 immunity: Water (because of Water Absorb) (Only Gyarados-M is able to break its ability)

• Volcanion Moveset:
I listed by category good moves Volcanion learns:
- Special: Earth Power, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Flash Canon, Focus Blast, Heat Wave, Scald , Sludge Bomb, Sludge Wave, Steam Eruption, Solar Beam
- Physical: Earthquake, Flame Charge, Flare Blitz, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Superpower
- Others: Haze, Roar, Will-O-Wisp, Sunny Day

First, we notice is its good special moveset: Fire, Water, Fighting, Poison, Grass, Ground and Steel. It's able to cover a lot of types.
Fighting, Dragon, Psychic, Ghost, Dark and Flying are types Volcanion can't hit super effective. Instead hit effective, just spam this powerful move called Steam Eruption (110 Power, 95% accuracy and 30% to burn).
This move is just incredible when you know Hydro-Pump has same power but a lower accuracy (80%) without secondary effect.

Next, the physical moveset has a huge issue, It can't learn any Water Physical move. That's one of the worst thing for it. Instead that, it can learn the good coverage Rock/Ground type in addition of Fire and Fighting.
That's why, in my opinion, people will use it as Special user most of time.

Haze, Roar and Will-O-Wisp are good moves to use it in a Stall Water team.

• Volcanion impact in Water type:
Volcanion is a big advantage for water type, indeed, it gives to water a new way to answer to Grass type. As Volcanion receives neutral damage from Grass type, it can answers with powerful Fire move.
If Volcanion is used as Specs, it can 2HKO M-Venu: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 206-246 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In Water type, Volcanion is a nightmare for Steel type: Volcanion is able to destroy this type, Ferrothorn isn't an issue anymore.
I listed 2 things to be able to defeat it:
Jirachi AV: This set has already been shown to be good for Steel type in this threat but now, we can add to it Jirachi is able to beat 1vs1 Volcanion:
252+ SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 264-312 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Jirachi: 264-312 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The other alternative is Excadrill Scarf only if Volcanion has been hurt by SR (If Volcanion is used with max HP)
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 288-342 (79.3 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Volcanion has another big impact used in water type: Against Fairy
Another good weapon for water with Tentacruel and Empoleon(?) in a different style, offense style.
With Sludge Wave, Steam Eruption, Fire Blast it hits super effective all Fairy Pokemon.

Volcanion is able to deal with M-Zard Y, it accentuate the difference between Fire and Water and perhaps will influence the most used mega in Flying type (M-Zard Y → M-Gyarados (This one is certainly a good check to Volcanion)).

A lot of people are saying Volcanion destroys Bug type, but I'm not agree with this opinion: Galvantula (mostly used with Electric Grass coverage) is able to deal with it.
252 SpA Galvantula Thunder vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 320-380 (88.1 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
If not Galvantula, the core Shuckle SR, Sticky web and M-Heracross is able to do this job too.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 340-410 (93.6 - 112.9%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO

Dark type is said weak to Volcanion, why?
Volcanion absorbs Will-O-Wisp from Sableye and deal with it, deal with Bisharp, Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Crawdaunt, ... By its potentiel to burn and hit a lot.

• Counter/Check?
Cradily is certainly the best counter for Volcanion like Water/Ground move if Volcanion isn't played with HP-Grass.

• Bonus replays
Vs Steel: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-361231501
Vs Fighting http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-360296197
Vs Normal http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-360270978
Vs Grass http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-360226375
Vs Grass² http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-361268821
Ps: new replays are coming

• To resume about Volcanion in Water type
→ Steel is totally beaten by Volcanion most of time.
→ Fairy, Dark will have some troubles with it.
→ No Water Physical Move who makes it predictable
→ Steam Eruption is ver powerful/broken?

 

[Fírnen]

Sorry for the double post but here is the second part of my "analysis"

• Volcanion impact in Fire type:
I think I won't learn you that Volcanion is a very good thing to Fire...
Why? The most important (and obvious) thing is its ability, Water Absorb, it gives to fire type another way to struggle against its best enemy: Water type.
Volcanion has this nice job Fire type miss against Water type: Pivot. Switch safely against a Scarf, Specs, Band water move (Keldeo, Azumarill, Politoed,... ) is a very good thing who balance more this matchup.
That's why Volcanion may be played with HP Grass to deal with most Water Pokemon.

Specs Volcanion

Here some calculs to prove the efficiency of Volcanion Specs HP-Grass, we can notice it 2HKO everything (Except Tentacruel, Empoleon and Gyarados)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 80 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 192-228 (46.7 - 55.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 472-556 (117.7 - 138.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 204-242 (67.3 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The other point Volcanion gives to Fire is the ability of not be sweep by Belly Drum Azumarill Aqua-Jet +6 Atk. As Volcanion is faster than Azumarill and Sludge Wave kills Azumarill (HP Grass specs is another option to kills it but there is 5/16 chance to kill it).
(even without specs assures the kill: 252+ SpA Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (75% is the max HP Azumarill may have next one Belly Drum, so, it 0HKO)).
But water type has some good counter to the good anti-water duo: Rotom-W Scarf: It is able to ruins your core with Vol Switch and Thunderbolt, Slowking AV (already OP as AV against M-Zard Y, it gives the same job against Volcanion with Power Gem).
252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 278-330 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Slowking Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 176-208 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It should exist others Pokemon for Volcanion in Water type but I gave the most obviously in my opinion.
To end with this "water type" part, notice M-Gyarados is able to set up safely like described in the "Volcanion in Water type" analysis. M-Gyarados usage may will raise because of Volcanion released in Water and Flying type.

We talked about Azumarill, so, the fairy type is became weaker against Fire type than before Volcanion released, only Diancie good handled is able to give issues to Fire type now.

Against Rock type, it won't change at all, why? Cradily is one of the best Volcanion counter, so, it won't be an issue for Rock type even if we can force the Cradily switch and predict it by sending Infernape to gain a free kill.
Without forgetting its rock weakness. These 2 conditions makes me thing Volcanion won't matter the old Fire-Rock game.

Ground type:
Concerning the ground type, it's a little more complex than the Rock case:
Gastrodon, Seismitoad are supposed to be the counter but it isn't really the case: If you play Air Balloon Volcanion with HP Grass, Gastrodon can't touch you except with Toxic (but it's 2HKO by HP Grass)
252+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Gastrodon: 268-316 (62.9 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And Seismitoad is 2HKO even with AV: 252+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Seismitoad: 248-292 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Without AV: 252+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Seismitoad: 364-432 (88.1 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
So, handle well Volcanion Air Balloon against ground is able to make a good job, but the spec will be mostly insufficient against Ground type as it's outspeed by many Pokemon able to 0HKO it (Garchomp, Landorus, Excadrill, Mamoswine) if not scarf and if Scarf Gastrodon and Seismitoad will be there to handle him.

Like said before (Volcanion in Water type), Volcanion will give many issues to Dark: First because Crawdaunt is outspeeded by Volcanion and the Spec version 0HKO Crawdaunt and without specs:
252+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 234-276 (87.3 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO.
Tyranitar may hope tank it better but Steam Eruption, Infernape is a good answer to it.
And like said before, the good physical bulk annoys Bisharp.

• Set I propose:
Scarf/Specs/Air Balloon: HP Grass/Steam Eruption/Sludge Wave/ Earth Power Or Fire Blast

• Counter/Check?
- Cradily
- M-Gyarados
- Slowking
- Dragon type in general
- Chansey

• Bonus Replays:
Vs Water http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-361624501
Vs water² http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-361626745
Vs Rock http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-361686679
Vs Dragon http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-361711622

• To resume Volcanion in Fire type:
→ Water advantage is decreased
→ Dark and Fire types suffers from this released
→ Not influence a lot other type as Volcanion in Water type

 

[scpinion]

I just deleted a couple posts on the tiering philosophy. Just posting as a reminder that this thread isn't for tiering philosophy discussion. If you'd like to express concerns over the tiering philosophy, please PM the council.

 

[Argus2Spooky]

As I was catching up on the comments, this is exactly what I was thinking. Instead of attempting to ban Skarmory for an even smaller chance to unban Aegislash to make Ghost easier to use, why don't we suspect test Aegislash in attempt to unban him instead? Originally, Aegislash was banned due to the supermajority of us feeling like the Immunity Core, with the addition of Aegislash over Doublade, was addition "broken." While I can both agree and attest to both those claims and feelings, I can also agree that the tier and player base has greatly widened. As such, I believe that we are now in a meta where the entirety of the Immunity Core can thrive or dominate while not overwhelming the metagame ass much it used to.

PS after messing around with mega aeroaero, I can say it is a superb mon in this tier. Taunt extremely eases your matchup versus Flying and Pursuit can trap threats such as Victini and Gengar whilst dealing valuable chip damage to threats such as Medicham, Thundurus, Patios, and Hoopa. Access to coverage moves to hit just about anything you want to, Roost for longevity, Tailwind, solid bulk, respectable offenses, and incredible speed make this thing 10/10

I can't say that enough in the metagame has changed since Aegislash's ban on steel at all to make the Immunity Core viable again as something that can be considered remotely balanced in the metagame. The fact of the matter is, only a handful of new options have been released since the release of ORAS, and most of them don't stand a chance against the core. Aegislash plays several key roles that fills in gaps presented in Steel's current line up, notably being a fighting counter, special attacker and tank that won't get bodied by a double weakness (Heatran and Scizor). Those three gaps represent the three main ways that steel is kept in check, and remains a top type despite this. While I disagree with the Aegislash ban on ghost, I do see it as better than reintroducing the Immunity Core.