NOC Dragon Ball Z NOC - Day 4

Status
Not open for further replies.
I believe vegeta and i guess mr. buu should be plenty informed on arguments for and against them claiming now, and that we should move on to discussing who the good players read as what and why. Not sure if that's a controversial thought, though. yeti's been doing it already.
 
No we haven't talked the vegeta thing out yet, that's being silly. We need an obvious agreement on the matter of claims to make sure mafia can't just claim Billy Billy(fine auto correct not willy-nilly). Trying to brush this under the rug this early Is stupid, give an actual opinion on it. Just because it may have been already stated doesn't mean we shouldn't know where one stands.
 
I just realized I misread the rules. I thought there could only be 4 claims at any given time, and once a claim dies, we get another. For some reason that's how I read it, guess that's what I get for skimming the rules :/

So yeah we shouldn't have Vegeta outing yet, MAYBE midgame depending on the circumstances
 
Ok so using roles is in fact helpful and very useful for winning the game but I don't think Sam understands that town and scum can say what they really believe with respect to optimal town strategy and skate by. I trust people to play intelligently.

I think letting the mafia burn all the claims whenever they please is really annoying in any case. I can understand Sam's sentiment like he wants to get some kind of value out of them but honestly if we waste at least 2 claims and lynch vegeta day 1 that is going to be so bad for us even if we have a reviver. Easily worse than if someone dies to Vegeta. Early claiming battles are going to be a shitshow. In light of the rule interpretation change, jumpluff, would you consider giving us more claims? I think it was meant to simply discourage claiming until it meant something, not let the mafia metagame us into setting up early 50-50s or never being able able to counterclaim. I'll roll with the punches if you can't though.

I don't want Asek dead and I don't need unclesam trying to "help" back me up with walls of text just yet but I DO want him to answer my questions.

I also would like to consider the benefits of target claiming. I mentioned this in the signup thread, it's something I thought of pre role, and I mentioned it again here before unclesam shoved his agenda.

Basically if everyone claims the target of their night action without claiming the result, they can effectively share their results after death without using up one of our claims. People who don't target should probably lie as opposed to saying they don't target but that has some disadvantages.

Pros:
-Info role clears, Cell nonwithstanding become known without claims.

-We can potentially clear a number of people in LYLO through sheer deduction.

-Vegeta can find scum (with a small chance of BP, Crier, Bulma) because people who claim to target him are lying. Similarly we don't need to waste a claim to get Vegeta cleared in many scenarios.

-The tracker and watcher become more valuable because they can discern liars.

-When mafia take our claims they will have to commit to a stronger story if they want to have any credibility in a 50-50.

Cons:
-Mafia will find the cop specifically a LOT faster. Anyone who claims a target on mafia and doesn't lynch them isn't cop and that adds up surprisingly quickly.

-The androids better coordinate their kills. If it didn't work last night, they'll know why and what signals to look for. Conversely if they use it in this fashion we can also find them easily.

-I don't think many people on here will be experienced with this kind of thing or be able to lie as effectively if they have to as Goku/Bulma.

Basically this is a real play for the long con type of strategy that works best the earlier you implement it but I think in this context it would be most appropriate to start around Day 4 if we do it at all. If anyone has thoughts I'd like to hear them because like Vegeta not claiming this has obvious benefits and risks.

I'll do a readslist later.
 
I feel like that'd fall under the category of soft claiming, claiming to have a targetable ability is p much that. Can we not try to break the spirit of the game and just work within the confines of the number of claims we are given?
 
LW I asked about this specifically because it was a gray area but MysticSoul didn't think of it as soft claiming. I also thought this was pretty non intrusive with respect to the spirit of the game since all it does is let us process someone's death better.

I'm in the process of writing the reads
 
Well if allowed I technically see nothing wrong with it, any benefits the mafia can get from it directly point back to them and I guess it got oked because people need to claim to actually report on their results.
 
Relevant reads:

Haruno's comment showed a legitimate desire to follow and keep up with a long, boring, and incredibly stupid argument that blew up into 5 pages in no time flat. Where others might take this as an excuse to idle I enjoy his initiative and attempt to summarize the points in his own intuition. Mithril shows similar initiative in actually helping work through the argument in a couple places.

Jalmont saying I should know better for probing into an inconsistent comment sketches me but since the vote was on him in the first place it sketches me a lot less. Oddly people don't seem to be probing mills for his read on B_T but mills is a known troll so I guess it's tough to say.

UncleSam is capable of acting like this as both alignments because all he needs to do is yell protown things from his perspective, emphasize he's starting discussion, and that's his town game. In order to get this guy I want to see how he lynches.

internet should step up and take his own advice if he wants to see some real change. What do YOU think of the good players?

LW is good at NOC and good at appearing town in NOC. He's also someone I agree with a lot and that always makes me paranoid that I may not be the best person to read him.

Yeti acts like she always does and appears to be leaning non confrontational at the moment. There are fewer probing questions than I'm used to seeing at this stage but there are also fewer stupid early bandwagons to work with.

I'll do my part and stop tirelessly engaging Sam so the rest of the thread can breathe and weigh in.
 
I'm sorry lightwolf there's just not a lot here for me to go through.

Unclesam is bogging the whole thread down with meta bullshit that is pretty terrible, but since this is a new style of game, we don't have any firm arguments to disprove it. I pretty much agree with everything Lightwolf has said in this regard (limiting villager actions to those necessary, cleans being kinda unimportant at this point, using up the bpv is more important etc). I don't think Unclesam is bad, I do think he's making an honest effort by fucking up this game.

Yeti is pretty neutral, I see it more as describing the game rather than pushing any opinions. Not particularly convinced by anything here.

Blazade seems good. Nothing particularly notable.

At this point I'd say town > blazade > Lightwolf > Unclesam > yeti > mafia.

If the rest of you want some comment about yourselves, harass me for it. I ignore the content of most posts, so the only things that have stuck are the arguments that span a lot of pages or a lot of paragraphs.


As for B_T, I just called out a random read, and got no response to it even when he was active. Not impressed. I'd lynch, but I don't think B_T will be up for hours so I think I'll waste my time on someone else.

Unvote

Vote rssp1

Talk about Blazade or Lightwolf please!
 
Alright whatever let's play this like a true vanilla NOC then

Re-reading shit I'm not a fan of Asek/Yeti/internet at all. They seem to be describing things that have happened (or Asek indeed seems to be trying to stir conflict) in order to substitute for original content.

I think this is mills' towngame even if I think he's dead wrong, LW I'm not so sure about because I've seen him push terrible ideas while being mafia before. Blazade is making a lot more sense to me but in a way he's looking more odd as a result; I would never support a lynch on him but I do think he's acting strangely and sort of trying not to step on people's toes while also pushing for his ideas. I guess being rude and brusque isn't necessarily townplay or anything like that, but Blazade also seems to not really care about what could go wrong, normally villagers are more risk-averse imo (though the fact mills generally isn't is why I suspect he'd rather go for higher risk higher reward plays down the line).

BT I literally can't remember one thing he's said without going back through his posts then I come back here to post and then can't remember anything he's said again.

Oh ya and Da Letter El is doing nothing just like he did last game as mafia so I'm gonna go with Unvote Lynch Da Letter El until he says something substantial.

Also I'm probably going to have decreased activity over the next few days, just a heads up.
 
ignoring how many claims are used up, wouldn't the main problem be that if vegeta claims cop that the real cop will be highly pressured to counter claim? And the we will be pressured into lynching one. This seems like a horrible idea, we'd be trapping ourselves not the mafia, not to mention it'd only ever catch the twins, who now will be extremely vary of that(god forbid it kills our watcher trying to target the cop claim)
 
One mafia per one claim seems like a fantastic trade at pretty much any realistic point in time.
billymills said:
Random question to whoever thinks they know the answer:

Whats the issue with Vegeta claiming cop?
Click to expand...
Another thing is it might not even get us anything except increased suspicion on said claim.
Gohan itself knowing that vegeta is full of shit.
If gohan dies then vegeta's next.

the biggest issue I have with this is
It might not even get us a mafia in the process! Unless we know for sure how night interactions work, it doesn't seem like a good idea since otherwise it'd just provoke a cell/broly NK and vegeta might not be aware if they targetted him or not since jumpluff wasn't clear on how vegeta's night interactions work. Or worse yet, dende might actually try to protect vegeta and get killed doing so.
 
You guys aren't seeing the point.

I was saying that we would agree that 'Vegeta claims cop right away,' then a little while later someone would claim cop. We would all assume that person is vegeta, not cop. The only benefit would be that when the cop does want to claim night 3, it would be counterclaiming the other hard claimed cop (who is obviously vegeta), which wouldn't eat up a claim and could be permitted even if all our claims were set.

This comes from an early reading of one of sam's posts. If the claim counter doesn't work like this, then ignore what I'm saying.
 
billymills said:
You guys aren't seeing the point.

I was saying that we would agree that 'Vegeta claims cop right away,' then a little while later someone would claim cop. We would all assume that person is vegeta, not cop. The only benefit would be that when the cop does want to claim night 3, it would be counterclaiming the other hard claimed cop (who is obviously vegeta), which wouldn't eat up a claim and could be permitted even if all our claims were set.

This comes from an early reading of one of sam's posts. If the claim counter doesn't work like this, then ignore what I'm saying.
Click to expand...

Yeah you can't metagame counterclaims like this, I'm pretty sure counterclaims count as claims. Also saying "Vegeta claims cop" Then seeing someone claim cop seems like a shitty way to have someone claim vegeta and if I were a host I would count it as a vegeta claim
 
Blazade said:
internet should step up and take his own advice if he wants to see some real change. What do YOU think of the good players?
Click to expand...

sam and LW appear to stand out to me as the strongest proponents of opposing ideas, to me that would indicate that 1s bad, but on the other hand it's sam and LW. I feel like they would openly, sincerely and fervently disagree no matter what. I get that feeling mostly from my experience in the genius game.

LW was also eager to dismiss a strategy hugely beneficial for the village based on a supposed noncompliance with the rules that was immediately debunked, and then swiftly turned round to say something positive about it.

I really have no idea on what to say about the rest of the goods (i.e. everyone but me). I don't recall anything else seeming sketchy to me as I read it.
 
Okay, I did it, I read the rolespec.

(pre-hour edit: staying up for mafia was a mistake)

One thing that wasn't brought up is this: mafia flips are worth more than town flips, since each one carries us a lot closer to winning and reveals a lot of interactions. So while mafia have a lower chance of hitting Vegeta, the hit would be much more valuable. I don't think the mafia would idle night actions with an unclaimed Vegeta around because letting us have a night of uninterrupted night actions is really strong.

At the end of the day there isn't an absolute choice, which is what I was getting at earlier with letting claims be flexible. When someone claims and tells us their story and why they did it, THEN we can consider everything. The one advantage of all this early role fluff is that we do kind of tie people to their thoughts on claim strategy, so it could screw them over later.

The ISSUE though is that now there's like half the playerlist alienated from the thread because you guys clogged it up. People like acidphoenix Da Letter El macle SteelEdges THE_IRON_...KENYAN? aren't going to post unless we prod them REALLY REALLY hard. Like I'm doing right now. Start reading from THIS PAGE if you have to, or get a sub.



okay it's content time now

First let's cover Sam. My main concern is the amount of jumping around with what his motivation is supposed to be. Thought he wanted to set claim conventions for the rest of the game, which I can understand, but then he claimed he was actually gunning to start up discussion? And now there isn't actually an agreement on claims anyway. There isn't a lot of traction behind it all, and there's the other thing I didn't like where he casts Blazade and LW as scummy, then waves it off as trolling or explains he doesn't actually think they're scummy. I can see Sam doing this as town but it also seems insincere despite all the try-hardiness, so I'm bringing it up.

Yeti actually bothers me more because her reads bother me. They blend positive/negative points in a sort of mesh I can't glean anything from. Specifically when she made the paragraphs about Sam and kept her vote on him, something about him not being his usual self and trying to sound town and not being as pushy as he usually is, but then she mentions that he's coming back to himself so the vote stays. I don't get the narrative at all.

I'm staying on Asek because I think he's avoiding the thread? I don't feel great about that. Want Yeti to clarify her reads though.
 
It was a nice haircut billy in case you were wondering

I agree with a lot of Blazade's points although I think the math is just silly. Implying that someone is going to randomly target someone else is untrue because this is mafia, not RNGfest. That being said, after thinking about it I don't think Vegeta should claim unless they're about to be lynched (at the moment, anyways).

Quick question for jumpluff: if someone targets vegeta and dies, are they informed?
If so, we can have vegeta claim when someone targets them and dies, then revive that person to confirm them (removing the annoying possibility of ccing).

LW im kinda iffy on, his early posts seemed scummy to me but generally im finding that I agree with most of his posts so i'm not sure how to read that

For some of the arguments i've seen on Vegeta: I don't think that we should have Vegeta act as a town leader but instead as someone confirmed (when we confirm them) that we can trust because that helps out a lot. I agree with the point made that people are opinionated and thus in NOC, which relies a lot on scumhunting, nobody can really "lead" town perfectly.
I'd like some confirmation on how exactly the transporter works from jumpluff as well (as in, can you redirect one person into another as was assumed earlier in the thread, or is it just a bus driver?)

Ive gotten zero reaction points from most of the posts though so if there's a specific one any of you want an opinion on just point out the post number and ill give it another look
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top