On The Radar

[VCrakeV]

Honestly if it was my choice I would go this route in this order:

1.Quick Ban Pheromosa: While I feel Aegislash is more broken I don't think we really should waste our time with this thing, it's broken in an Aegi meta, why would we want to test it in an Aegi-less meta ? just quick ban it now.
2.Quick Ban Aegislash: While this is a strawman argument, I feel like people who want this thing to stay are either A) sadists B) people who happened to build anti Aegislash teams so they think it's not broken or C) people who want it to stay so it can check other broken things. plz quickban
3.Suspect Genesect: While Genesect doesn't deserve a quickban, I think a lot of people really undermine how good it is, people talk about bulky water types to check it and act like TBolt is just a niche option when I personally never encountered a Genesect without TBolt and I have played tons of games. Not to mention the fact that Rock Polish with Ebelt/LO is similair to RP Lando in the fact that it's impossible to stop with offense.
4.Suspect Hoopa-U: I think fat teams are bound to become important with threats like RP Lando, Greninja and ShiftGear Magearna in the tier, so people will shy away a little bit from offense and turn to either BO, Balance or straight up fat, and that's where Hoopa-U will shine and be deemed suspect worthy.
5.Suspect Greninja: I think with faster threats gone, Greninja will run less of water shurikens and more of coverage to wallbreak like Extrasensory to deal with Toxapex and Amoonguss in one slot, and that's when it's gonna be clear that it needs a suspect.
6.Suspect Manaphy
6.Suspect Landorus-I
7.Suspect M-Mawile
8.Suspect M-Sableye
9.Suspect Arena Trap
10.Suspect Tapu Koko
11.Suspect Toxapex
12.Suspect Porygon Z
13.Suspect Tapu Lele

I think if at least more than half of these babies get banned, we'll finally get a kind of healthy metagame but we'll see.

Edit: of course, when I say suspect I don't mean straight up ban, what I mean is that we should look INTO these mons.
Edit2: also please never bring back Shadow Tag, and plz get rid of Baton Pass and Swagger.

1./2. Pheromosa is not that bad, especially with Aegislash. I think a quick ban on Aegislash followed by a suspect of Pheromosa would be better. Pheromosa struggles with Toxapex, Aegislash, Alolan Marowak, to name a few. Depending on which hidden power (or other coverage like poison jab) it chooses, it can struggle with pelliper, mantine, tapu koko, tapu fini, and Scizor. Priority wrecks it (you can run your own terrain to get rid of psychic terrain), weather abusers out speed it, and base 85s (90s?) out speed it with choice scarf. It can be dealt with in a variety of ways.

Manaphy, tapu lele, and *porygon-z*?! Look, you can't just ask for suspects because your team/moves lose to these mons. Manaphy hasn't changed since ORAS, tapu lele has a healthy amount of checks/counters, and porygon-z is predictable, can only set up once (can be hazed or roared/whirlwind), and suffers from 4 move-slot syndrome.

 

[Gerard]

"He invalidates mons"
That's the job of defensive mons.

He doesn't invalidate mons, he invalidates entire types! All but a few Fighting, Psychic and Faerie types have disappeared from OU because of him. Thus making so that pokemon that would be checked by these types (ex. Toxapex) are now a lot better because their natural checks are gone from the metagame.

 

[Niadev]

imo Aegi shouldn't be quickbanned, but definitely suspected. Aegi isn't on the level of stupid of other, previous quickbans. Yes, it's the thing that comes up in the Smogon dictionary under the term "overcentralising", alongside (ORAS Ubers at least) Primal Groudon, but it doesn't win games on it's own if you don't pack a 100% answer like with Mega Kang, Mega Blaze and Pheromosa (or any answers at all in the case of mega mence, who could probably win even if you had a solid check to it). It also has pretty decent and somewhat widespread counterplay (numerous grounds, darks, ghosts and fires can give it hell), as opposed to Pheromosa which is basically pack Aegi or Toxapex or pray it doesn't have the coverage to beat your team. Why? There is a Phero set out there that will fuck you over 100% regardless of what you do due to how absurdly powerful and difficult to offensively, or even defensively check, with just one set it is, without resorting to one of aforementioned two mons. Point is, Aegi isn't anything like that. Yes, it invalidates half the tier, yes it's a pain to switch on, and yes King's Shield makes it more difficult to check in some cases, but Aegi doesn't have the raw offensively destructive capacity of Pheromosa or the other 'mons that have been previously quickbanned, nor is it as simultaneously nigh unkillable and offensively dangerous as Zyggy-C.

I want Aegi banned personally, but don't you think wanting Aegi quickbanned is a little overreactive? Just a bit? I find it comes off as a bit of a kneejerk - vitriolic, almost - reaction.

 

[DaKakz]

Manaphy, tapu lele, and *porygon-z*?! Look, you can't just ask for suspects because your team/moves lose to these mons. Manaphy hasn't changed since ORAS, tapu lele has a healthy amount of checks/counters, and porygon-z is predictable, can only set up once (can be hazed or roared/whirlwind), and suffers from 4 move-slot syndrome.

When I talk about Manaphy and PZ I'm talking about their new Z-Moves (so no, Manaphy did in fact change from ORAS) and I personally never lost to them lol but I've seen members of the community call for their suspect. One user last night talked about how one guy topped the ladder and steamrolled everyone with Z-Conversion PZ.

Like I said in my post, suspect does not mean ban, it means that we should LOOK into these mons.

 

[Finchinator]

I reckon Mega Sab isn't even close to on the radar right now. It doesn't see much use at all and it's far from even remotely controversial at this stage in the game. Everyone should refrain from discussing it in a suspect related context at this point in time, thanks!

In regards to people discussing King's Shield and the move being banned, it is not happening. Aegislash as a whole will be banned (or kept as a whole, but we all know it's eventually going to get banned, sooner or later). King's Shield does trigger another form of Aegislash, yes, but this is in no way a case where you can tier them separately. Aegislash only has one ability and that ability entails both forms and King's Shield triggering the shift of forms. It is tiered as one Pokemon and it will remain that. The heart of the anti-KS argument is, more importantly, that we never ban moves that only one Pokemon use for the sake of keeping a specific Pokemon in the tier/not broken. If we did this, it would provoke so many bad potential continuations of the precedent it would create that are unwelcome and blatantly illogical. We in no way plan to change the fundamental communal tiering philosophy in this regard and, therefore, this request is completely invalid and has no prospect of happening. Stop bringing it up.

 

[akelly96]

Manaphy hasn't changed since ORAS

Manaphy has changed a lot since ORAS in the form of Waterium Z. Z-Rain Dance gives Manaphy a way of beating offensive builds while still being a extremedy threatening to balance and stall. If you don't need the speed you can use Waterium Z to break bulky checks you can't normally beat. For example +3 Hydro Vortex from surf OHKO's Rotom-W. Manaphy is probably one of most dangerous pokemon in this metagame once Pheromosa leaves.

 

[volx757]

People are talking about Duggy but let's remember that we've got precedent from RS that Duggy being on par with the rest of the tier isn't a problem as long as we don't have Pokemon that have a single digit number of total checks and counters. We've also learned from ORAS than even having a single Pokemon in the tier that is extremely difficult to check or counter, or as a result of its existence makes its playstyle extremely difficult to check or counter, can make Pokemon with Sub-400 BST borderline broken if they have a trapping ability.

We can design the metagame to our own preference. We could opt to push the meta in its current direction, where extremely broken checks extremely broken to the point it actually suppresses Dugtrio from seeing play because there's enough broken stuff to check other broken stuff. We could opt to entirely ban everything that pushes the meta, leaving trappers in an average state. We could opt to let a little bit of the broken stay, but drop the trappers because the current balance of broken is too delicate to have trappers in play.

The one thing we don't need to do is say that "everything deserves a fair chance at a suspect" and in the same breath spit at Shadow Tag (or trapping in general) in disgust as if it's some sort of broken force that surpasses MRay. We twisted our tongues and tore up a decade of precedent in order to effectively say "Sableye + Gothitelle is broken in the ORAS OU metagame, but Gothitelle isn't individually broken and we want to give Sableye a second chance" and so we did. We gave Sableye a second chance. We still banned it. We don't even have evidence that Sab + Stag is broken in SMOU and there is no known compelling reason to ban Stag other than Sab, at least not from XYOU and back, we'd need to allow Stag to disprove this. There is also no precedent that would imply that if Sab + Stag was broken in the SMOU meta, that Stag was the unhealthy aspect of the duo and not Sableye (we only have precedent against it, even if that precedent is mostly invalid from being set in a different generation).

tl;dr- People need to stop viewing trapping as pure cancer when we barely banned it in ORAS as an edge case suspect to keep a broken pokemon in a tier for a few months.

We don't have any precedent or proof or anything that MSab was the broken part of that combo, ppl keep saying this, but if you read the 2nd MSab suspect thread, you'll be hard pressed to find actual evidence of this. Granted, we also don't have precedent or proof that dugtrio/trapping/ST is the broken part of that combo. BUT, one of these removes a fundamental aspect of the game from play, the other blocks your rocks. It's clear that arena trap and shadow tag are uncompetitve because they explicitly remove one of the most competitive aspects of the game.

But mostly, please don't assume MSab is broken and arena trap isn't just cause of that weird as hell suspect on the last day of ORAS that was passed by a small group of voters (compared to other suspects). That's not proof of anything but some of the player base's opinions.

edit: posted before that finchinator comment above. my b.

and

Your primary point seems to be that Duggy is a problem because it further enables certain mons that are already (too) strong. in that case how does it make any sense to remove Duggy before the mons it indirectly strengthens? I mean removing Duggy may make certain threats easier to handle but that doesn't mean they still wouldn't be too strong even without his support. in addition to that nobody knows how Duggys usage and impact may change after the threats it facilitates are removed.

Well I think you're interpreting the point inversely to how it's intended: Dugtrio isn't a problem because it further enables mons that are too strong, it's a problem because it actively hinders viable answers to these threats.

If those threats were gone, Dugtrio's value would be unaffected, as it's ability to remove certain mons is entirely independent of the presence of those threats in the tier.
However, if Dugtrio were gone, the otherwise fully viable answers to those threats can do their job, and the meta balances. Our goal is to balance the meta with as few bans as possible, so it makes more sense to ban dugtrio (or arena trap) and keep as many otherwise checkable threats in the tier as we can.

 

[JackTheGamer]

Now that we can stop talking about aegislash, maybe we can make some progress here. I'd like to turn this discussion towards Hoopa-U. This thing is insane. All you need to do is get it in and something is dying. it competely shuts down nearly all balanced play. I don't play hyper offensive, so I really can't say there. I'd like us to atleast discuss in a bit of depth what we think its strengths and weaknesses are in the current meta.

 

[nameless90]

Aegislash

This thing needs to go away from OU. It's too centralising because has high stats (both defensively and offensively) and a wide movepool, very few things can safely switch into it to the point you have to run an Aegislash + another check for the opposite Aegislash you'll find. Not only that, but King's Shield puts high pressure (and it causes mindgames) if the opponent has a physical attacker on its side. It also better if it "underspeeds" the opponent's pokemon in order to take an hit in Def forme, and only then it attacks; this is possible even if you run max EVs/max Spe in order to circumvent some "checks"...and you won't know this before losing your answer to this thing. Too much power combined with too much versatility for the OU environment.
Genesect

Quickban it, please. Download + high stats all around bar Spe makes this thing highly customizable and a +1 on Atk or SpA depending on the set you run is crucial for sweeping or not sweeping. The problem is this thing a good numerical and actual bulk, which can grant it to switch in&out repeatedly throughout a match until you find the right boost on your offensive stat. Genesect doesn't kill pokemon from full health, but it still dishes out much damage from a bulky body, which resists to many attacks thrown at it. 4x Fire weakness is easily exploitable, too. Too much good for a bulky U-Turner: you only need the right boost from Download.

Greninja

Ban it. Greninja's movepool and speed are both incredible, because it wears down the opposite team with ease. Despite its middling bulk, it can resist a couple of hit thanks to Protean and natural resistances. Teams with this pokemon are better than team without it. It is the third most dangerous U-Turner after Genesect and Pheromosa. Strong priority can deal well with this thing, but in gen 7 we have a way to discourage even priority in the form of a Terrain.
Hoopa-U

Suspect it. Even though Sun and Moon has presented us with multiple new viable Fairy types and an array of potential checks, I feel that this thing has still to be explored (even because the metagame is full of broken things i.e. Mega Metagross and Mega Diancie -if confirmed- with the new Spe mechanics).
Landorus

Suspect it. Landorus-Incarnate is quite linear on its actions: Rock Polish and sweep. I'd like to see the post Aegislash/Pheromosa metagame in order to see how much consistently can do this.
Pheromosa

Quickban it, please. The fastest U-Turner need to go in Uber immediately. It is a "must have" if you run an HO team because it is a glass cannon which can clean the opposite team with relative ease thanks to its offenses (137/137/151), plus Beast Boost and the item. U-turn provides Pheromosa the ability to constantly pressure its common checks; Bug/Fighting is not even that bad towards priority moves thanks to its set of resistances. Aegislash can't be really considered a counter to Pheromosa, because the Ghost/Steel pokemon is utterly broken in OU, so we don't really have to consider it in the first place.

 

[Salem1]

I really can't see how some players here will use the fact that pokemon like Pheromosa having checks/counter is enough to not need a quickban. Every single pokemon in the game has 1-on-1 checks and counters! even Mega Rayquaza if it was let into OU is theoretically possible to check/counter. Please stop using these bad lines of logic.

What should be asked is two things: 1. Is there any reason to not use this pokemon over its equivalents for the role? 2. Does putting this pokemon on your team force the enemy to be built in direct answer to it or lose?

Pokemon like Pheromosa, Aegislash and Genesect don't have any cons for being on your team and instead are more like glue-mons, outperform anything you could replace them with if they even have anything similar to themselves, and are their own win condition just by default of how good they are if the enemy team isn't already built specifically to counter them.

PS. STAB U-turn coming off high speed and attack stats is what puts Pheromosa and Genesect irredeemably beyond OU even beyond what their (ridiculous, in Pheromosa's case) abilities are, letting them not just hit hard but gain momentum off efforts to play around them.

 

[QuickBH]

Not gonna question what Finch says even though I disagree 100% nor question the consistency of said logic, I still want Aegislash in OU as I've said. The problem with the notion that "if Aegislash goes and there are broken mons we should just suspect" is that thanks to the power creep it's not like the Pokemon that made ORAS OU incredibly restrictive and frankly unfun for people like myself WERE broken, but the fact that you could build a solid Bulky Offense team and realize that you got to have a Pokemon for Mega Scizor, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, Mega Medicham, Mega Charizard X, and that your ways of handling each of the megas require an actual hard check you'd end up having to stack Pokemon on just to shakily check them because even if you had a pretty solid you realize that "oh fuck I didn't put a 252/252 bold Clef or that weird ass phys.d mew shit now I lose to mega medicham or I have to run some passive shit" shit was actually frustrating.

I repeat, these megas aren't exactly broken, but the fact that you don't have any sort of convenient check made teambuilding an actual pain in the ass and promoted way more "win by match up" shit than needed to be. I can say right now that with Aegislash back I've actually been able to handle a ton of metagame relevant threats without having to sacrifice so much in teambuilding because well, Aegislash can check to all of these mons. The fact that Aegislash makes shit less viable is a good thing, diversity was never the crutch of competitive battling and all it does is produce a ton of very powerful threats that produce a shit ton of strain on teambuilding. Not fun. Aegislash not only provides a solid glue to a ton of extremely powerful pokemon, but it has defined weaknesses that makes checking it significantly easier and less taxing. Can we please not quickban a clearly controversial mon?

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

I don't think Porygon-Z and toxapex are as terrifying as people are making them out to be. If the other team has Haze or any one of whirlwind, roar, dragon tail, etc. It's one time boost is gone and it's suddenly underwhelming again. adaptability boosted shadow ball or t-bolt is great but is it ban worthy? Not by a long shot. Blissey still doesn't care about it, Chansey definitely doesn't care about it. The meta has plenty of special walls to counter this thing.

And banning Toxapex is like banning blissey or chansey. Banning a wall that's good at walling and nothing else. Toxapex has a lot of options including haze which can scare things out, but a well placed earthquake or electric move is still knocking it down. Will it be used in Ubers? Yes. Does it need to live there all year round? I am suspect of that. It's hard walled by steel types of almost any caliber and anything carrying earthquake, thunderbolt or pschic is taking this pincushion out or knocking it down so it can be taken out after it comes back in after a re-generator. With the tapu's in such high usage right now this thing's passivity is really killing it's bannable potential and the tapu's aren't leaving OU mark my words.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Every mon is "controversial". It is what lead us to suspecting it for the second time in ORAS. If we can't cater to Aegislash, you can't expect us to cater to you because it makes life easier for a little while. We completely get it, you enjoy being able to slap an Aegislash on any team and check a massive majority of the meta, but it isn't happening. This is where teambuilding comes into play, you may not like it, but it's not about what you like. You can't prepare for every single mon in a game with 802 possibilities, sometimes you are going to face that one mon that runs right through you, oh well, either find another mon that fits to cover that weakness or build another team. We shouldn't keep an overcentralizing, metagame defining, mon in the tier because it's convenient.

 

[QuickBH]

ignoring the fact that your first two sentences made you sound like an absolute ass, if you think that Pokemon becoming less relevant isn't inevitable and you'd rather have a less competitive game where shit is decided more like team preview because this gen has so much powerful shit just like ORAS because you want to see more stuff in this gen then alright, but that's not what made me enjoy Pokemon back in DPP where shit wasn't so powercreeping and you could actually check all the relevant shit in the meta and just like in DPP there isn't actually a ton of Pokemon that see usage there but it's almost undisputedly the most balanced generation of all time.

also if you think every mon is controversial look at how many people (including myself) want pheramosa insta gone or wanted stuff like blaziken and greninja gone in ORAS.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Stating facts makes me look like a complete ass? Alrighty, gotcha. Good to know.
You're making quite the assumptions, I like it. . .
We making the "but it's only going to get worse" statement too? Got anymore cliché anti-ban statements?

DPP is an entirely different meta, you cannot seriously sit here and try and compare the two like we can take the same approach to SuMo as we did DPP. . .
DPP didn't have the powercreep BW and beyond blessed us with, but that is neither here nor there. But thanks for bringing it up.

It's not about "wanting to see more stuff in this gen" it's about the fact that Aegislash literally dictates the god damn meta, I like to think it's not that difficult of a concept, but you're making me think other wise.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

ignoring the fact that your first two sentences made you sound like an absolute ass, if you think that Pokemon becoming less relevant isn't inevitable and you'd rather have a less competitive game where shit is decided more like team preview because this gen has so much powerful shit just like ORAS because you want to see more stuff in this gen then whatever, but that's not what made me enjoy Pokemon back in DPP where shit wasn't so powercreeping and you could actually check all the relevant shit in the meta and just like in DPP there isn't actually a ton of Pokemon that see usage there but it's almost undisputedly the most balanced generation of all time.

also if you think every mon is controversial look at how many people (including myself) want pheramosa insta gone or wanted stuff like blaziken and greninja gone in ORAS.

I've been reading this and re-reading it to try to make head nor tail of it. As someone that entered into the scene with Gen 4 too I totally agree with what you're saying, but with that said I don't see how what you're saying validates wanting Aegislash in OU.

It doesn't allow balance. It can blow holes in pretty much any team and with any ounce of prediction can have the longevity of a monster. It's even a huge threat in Ubers. Well played the thing can check a lot of answers to it with ease. I don't understand why you want something that completely shuts down a meta game to the point where it's on every team just to deal with itself. It's not a matter of wanting more variety in Ou, it's a matter of actually being able to play OU.

 

[QuickBH]

"you can't expect us to cater to you because it makes life easier for a little while." that was actually one of the most condescending posts I've seen in this thread, I'm not the only one who wants Aegislash to stay.

And yes, I am saying that we should try to see if we can model more like DPP. DPP had some rather centralizing mons but none of them broke the tier because they were solid checks in the tier that allowed you to be extremely loose in teambuilding. In BW onwards, there is a mass powercreep jump, where it became more or less 4-5 mons (keldeo, chomp, lando-t and maybe a few more) that completely dominated and forced you to carry hard checks just so you can handle them and teambuilding is extremely hell bent and that's why BW is not only stale but known as one of the worse gens. In ORAS it was a bit better but you still had the same shit except now you have Pokemon with more bulk able to dominate the tier and teambuilding became centered on not getting 6-0d by megas because again you can't soft check through ORAS and it made the meta rather unfun for people like myself. With Aegislash around, we have a method of actually reversing it and that is by having a Pokemon that actually hard checks a ton of the Pokemon that would actually be really difficult to teambuild just shove it all into one mon. It's not perfect but it definitely allows for more room than past metagames, there will always be Pokemon that dictate the tier.

 

[Morningstar]

First post in a while... My opinions.
I'm pretty casual when it comes to battles, and I haven't much experience with the meta (I have some, but its been a long time since I've played), so take all of these with a grain of salt.

• Aegislash: Look, I liked Aegi's design, but I feel that this mon has proven to be too much back in ORAS. Good typing, too versatile and it is effectively as strong as Arceus and Deoxys. I'd say a quickban is the best case scenario.
• Pheremosa: Suspect. Like I said I haven't had enough experience with the meta and SuMo yet, but I do think the new pokemon deserves a chance to prove if they are inherently broken or not. This also applies to the Tapu Quartet and Silvally
• Silvally. I need some options on its viability. Its a weaker Arceus, so it should be just as versatile (and thus broken)...on paper, but both Arceus and Silvally's type changes come at the cost of an items lot and they can be checked by simple knowledge of the type chart. (Speaking of which, is it possible to use Trick to switch Arceus Plates to Arceus and change its type. If so I feel like the same can be said for Silvally)
  
• Greninja: The presence of a 2nd viable ability for Greninja creates a sight possibility of a complex ban. I want to see how Balanced Battle Bond sets are before jumping on the quickbandwagon for this one.
  
• Tapus Koko, Lele, Bulu and Fini. Consider that Bulu and Koko's abilities would synergize well with Sunny Day and Rain Dance respectably [Think supercharged, accurate Thunders and instant supercharged Solar Beams/Blades] and that Lele shuts down Priority moves by their mere entrance. I'd say suspecting the quartet is an inevitability. Plus the first time pokemon with similar abilities were introduced (as in an ability that changes the environment to favor certain types) they were banned and the abilities were never seen in OU until less Legendary pokemon got them as hidden ability. I want to see if History Repeats itself with SuMo.
  
• Genesect: More Limited than Silvally, but with more potent U-turns and a precedent for being troublesome enough to consider.

 

[2MN]

Every mon is "controversial". It is what lead us to suspecting it for the second time in ORAS. If we can't cater to Aegislash, you can't expect us to cater to you because it makes life easier for a little while. We completely get it, you enjoy being able to slap an Aegislash on any team and check a massive majority of the meta, but it isn't happening. This is where teambuilding comes into play, you may not like it, but it's not about what you like. You can't prepare for every single mon in a game with 802 possibilities, sometimes you are going to face that one mon that runs right through you, oh well, either find another mon that fits to cover that weakness or build another team. We shouldn't keep an overcentralizing, metagame defining, mon in the tier because it's convenient.

you keep talking like everyone else is the one harboring biases because they prefer one pokemon, but i feel the major point comes in a much wider lens.

it doesn't have to be aegislash, there's a lot of other valid reasons you can have to ban it. but then, what happens when this starts rolling downhill again and we get back to ORAS, where nobody enjoys laddering since it's all based on a dice roll of whether or not you run into the one or two things that will always counter your team, no matter how much you try to cover?

centralization is not only not a complete negative, but when placed correctly, it's what holds pokemon together. the most centralizing metagames in pokemon are often the ones where the better battler is the one who wins games, and while creative teambuilding should always flourish, the last thing that should happen is for teambuilding to have permanent priority over in-game battling, to the point that the former actively harms the latter. you might not particularly like it, but like you said, it's not about what you like.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

First post in a while... My opinions.
I'm pretty casual when it comes to battles, and I haven't much experience with the meta (I have some, but its been a long time since I've played), so take all of these with a grain of salt.

• Aegislash: Look, I liked Aegi's design, but I feel that this mon has proven to be too much back in ORAS. Good coverage, too versatile and it is effectively as strong as Arceus and Deoxys. I'd say a quickban is the best case scenario.
• Pheremosa: Suspect. Like I said I haven't had enough experience with the meta and SuMo yet, but I do think the new pokemon deserves a chance to prove if they are inherently broken or not. This also applies to the Tapu Quartet and Silvally
• Silvally. I need some options on its viability. Its a weaker Arceus, so it should be just as versatile (and thus broken)...on paper, but both Arceus and Silvally's type changes come at the cost of an items lot and they can be checked by simple knowledge of the type chart. (Speaking of which, is it possible to use Trick to switch Arceus Plates to Arceus and change its type. If so I feel like the same can be said for Silvally)
  
• Greninja: The presence of a 2nd viable ability for Greninja creates a sight possibility of a complex ban. I want to see how Balanced Battle Bond sets are before jumping on the quickbandwagon for this one.
  
• Tapus Koko, Lele, Bulu and Fini. Consider that Bulu and Koko's abilities would synergize well with Sunny Day and Rain Dance respectably [Think supercharged, accurate Thunders and instant supercharged Solar Beams/Blades] and that Lele shuts down Priority moves by their mere entrance. I'd say suspecting the quartet is an inevitability. Plus the first time pokemon with similar abilities were introduced (as in an ability that changes the environment to favor certain types) they were banned and the abilities were never seen in OU until less Legendary pokemon got them as hidden ability. I want to see if History Repeats itself with SuMo.
  
• Genesect: More Limited than Silvally, but with more potent U-turns and a precedent for being troublesome enough to consider.

Silvally is predictable and limited in execution. I don't even think it will make ou it has minor versatility but not the stats to make it broken.

The tapus have a lot of hard checks each. And terrain doesn't last forever. I can see lele being suspected but the others are probably making their home in ou and staying there.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

That wasn't meant for you, that was a general statement. . .
But there's no point in continuing that conversation. . .
It's best to agree to disagree, before we shit up this thread more than we already have.

centralization is not only not a complete negative, but when placed correctly, it's what holds pokemon together. the most centralizing metagames in pokemon are often the ones where the better battler is the one who wins games, and while creative teambuilding should always flourish, the last thing that should happen is for teambuilding to have permanent priority over in-game battling, to the point that the former actively harms the latter. you might not particularly like it, but like you said, it's not about what you like.

You're right, for some Pokemon, centralization can be healthy, and isn't over bearing. . . Aegislash does not fit that. As I said before, the meta is Aegi + 1/2 Aegi killer(s) + mon that thrives on Aegi being gone. . . That is not okay. That is not just centralization, it is the epitome of Over-centralization. If it were any other mon, it would without a doubt be banned, and there likely wouldn't be much discussion about it. For whatever reason, when it comes to Aegislash, it's a different story. It's also VERY clear, that there is a problem there when it comes to teambuilding as well. Aegislash restricts the metagame in an absolutely horrendous way. Aegislash IS that overbearing Pokemon, whether you like it or not, and it's something, from what I can tell, people from both sides can agree on. The only thing we can't seem to agree on, for some reason, is that that is a deal breaker for a competitive game.

Also, I'm not touching your slippery slope argument with a 50 foot pole. But instead of maybe having that metagame, you (since I for some reason have to specify, this is another general statement) feel that we need to stick with this centralizing meta because of what could be?

 

[Full_Korbe]

My problem with many of the Pokemon suspected is that they are pretty much risk-free. When you look at some OU staple (at least in ORAS, I know we are in a different metagame), Clefable was quite passive without CM, and its stats were not that great so it can be overwhelmed through brute force (not saying that it was not incredibly versatile), Landorus-T often only ran EQ / Knock Off, so many mons were able to come on it quite free. Lati@s had the same problem as ever with Pursuit, Keldeo had surefire counters that were dangerous to let it come free (Azu, L@tias) etc.
Pheros / Gene in particular are incredible because it's extremely hard to punish them. Of course, Rocky Helmet does exist, but you are only punishing the move. However, they keep the momentum while applying a strong pressure to your team. It's not that they are tearing apart teams by themselves, but they make it hard to get the upper hand. Whenever I play against one of them, I always feel on the backfoot.
As for Aegis, it's the same problem, with a different mean. Many others said it before me, it's always a 50/50 that even if you win, it's not a decisive victory, whereas an Aegis win is more often than not pretty effective.

Tbh, i'm sold on the comparison with the unstoppable force and the immovable wall. It feels exactly this for me.

 

[Salem1]

"you can't expect us to cater to you because it makes life easier for a little while." that was actually one of the most condescending posts I've seen in this thread, I'm not the only one who wants Aegislash to stay.

And yes, I am saying that we should try to see if we can model more like DPP. DPP had some rather centralizing mons but none of them broke the tier because they were solid checks in the tier that allowed you to be extremely loose in teambuilding. In BW onwards, there is a mass powercreep jump, where it became more or less 4-5 mons (keldeo, chomp, lando-t and maybe a few more) that completely dominated and forced you to carry hard checks just so you can handle them and teambuilding is extremely hell bent and that's why BW is not only stale but known as one of the worse gens. In ORAS it was a bit better but you still had the same shit except now you have Pokemon with more bulk able to dominate the tier and teambuilding became centered on not getting 6-0d by megas because again you can't soft check through ORAS and it made the meta rather unfun for people like myself. With Aegislash around, we have a method of actually reversing it and that is by having a Pokemon that actually hard checks a ton of the Pokemon that would actually be really difficult to teambuild just shove it all into one mon. It's not perfect but it definitely allows for more room than past metagames, there will always be Pokemon that dictate the tier.

This sounds a lot like the role Chansey and Blissey have, but are they equivalent to Aegislash?

 

[Ash Borer]

He doesn't invalidate mons, he invalidates entire types! All but a few Fighting, Psychic and Faerie types have disappeared from OU because of him. Thus making so that pokemon that would be checked by these types (ex. Toxapex) are now a lot better because their natural checks are gone from the metagame.

I don't think we have the usage stats to validate your claim. I don't really agree with what you've said at all. Fairies are just fine, Tapu Bulu, Koko, Fini, Lele, Mawile, Magearna, Clefable, Diancie, and Azumarill fair just fine as far as I can tell (though Diancie and Mawile were only allowed for a couple days). Psychic types? I would say Metagross, Alakazam, Lele, an Hoopa-U are doing just fine. Fighting types also exist in plentiful numbers if we assume mega stones will be usable in January. Loppuny, Pheromosa, Heracross, Buzzwole, and Keldeo are all perfectly adept for the metagame.

Sure there's Pokemon like Gardevoir and Medicham that are made pretty much irrelevant, but so be it? This is a new generation, there are new threats that crowd the tier. Maybe UU will be able to handle these threats.

 

[Pushinguplilacs]

I don't think we have the usage stats to validate your claim. I don't really agree with what you've said at all. Fairies are just fine, Tapu Bulu, Koko, Fini, Lele, Mawile, Magearna, Clefable, Diancie, and Azumarill fair just fine as far as I can tell (though Diancie and Mawile were only allowed for a couple days). Psychic types? I would say Metagross, Alakazam, Lele, an Hoopa-U are doing just fine. Fighting types also exist in plentiful numbers if we assume mega stones will be usable in January. Loppuny, Pheromosa, Heracross, Buzzwole, and Keldeo are all perfectly adept for the metagame.

Sure there's Pokemon like Gardevoir and Medicham that are made pretty much irrelevant, but so be it? This is a new generation, there are new threats that crowd the tier. Maybe UU will be able to handle these threats.

Gardevoir and Medicham were already hanging on by a thread anway. I don't really agree that Aegislash belongs in OU, but I can accept it if he is. He makes games a lot more prediction heavy and you're gonna see a lot of him but I don't think he's gonna shut down the meta.

Though neither did the Deoxys quartet and they still got hard banned and not even considered this gen. The fact that we have to argue on how it's effecting the meta and no one can agree on it is why it needs to be suspect tested. It's scary, is it game breakingly scary? We are too early in to see for sure, but if past gens are anything to look at it's worth at least considering banning it.