BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread

[E4 Flint]

Announcement: Upcoming Important Change to Ability Clause
​

The Ability Clause was originally formulated for BH mid-BHXY to try and combat with various spamming of the same ability such as Poison Heal, Imposter and more. Since then, it has proven to be effective in limiting spam while still allowing creative freedom and has since been implemented in AAA and discussed for other OMs as well.

For those who don't know, here's a quick recap:

What is the Ability Clause?
No use of the same ability on more than 2 Pokemon in a team.

However, one drawback of the clause was that it determined the limit based on the Ability Name; as such, abilities that do essentially the same thing functionally, but have different names could get around this as a loophole. Until now, that is.

An upcoming update will limit abilities based on functionality as well. Ability clones that are functionally EXACTLY identical will now be counted together.

Impact:
There is a small list of which abilities are affected, which you can view in the official commit page here. The most relevant ones for BH that are now under the same umbrella are:

• Turboblaze, Teravolt and Mold Breaker
• Queenly Majesty and Dazzling

This shall soon be seen on the official ladder. Feel free to discuss the impact on this especially in context of the current discussion of APS.

Credit to Spandan for the update​

 

[SuperSkylake]

That's great and definitely a needed change. I doubt that people will really have issue with it, since the clause was made to limit spamming of the same ability. It's also great to know that your opponent only has 2 DQM sash-smashers instead of 4, though you still have to be super cautious about using priority moves after you've defeated what you think were the first two because they could have easily been bluffing something else. That's another reason why sash-smash is so powerful, because you can bluff lots of other things, and the opponent is still strongly dissuaded from using a priority move. I've seen people running IO effectively on shell smash sets in order to neta n easy KO against an otherwise troublesome revenge killer. With those out of the way the rest of the team is a lot easier to wall.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Announcement: Upcoming Important Change to Ability Clause​

Thank you for your work, I (more like we) really needed such update.
Just as SuperSkyLake has mentioned, we still have to watch out teams who are still has OCD with Sash-Smash. But I am glad to hear that it will be somewhat alleviated.

If ATS gets banned in the future, now I won't have to equip phasing moves on all of my support (my Slowbro currently has Circle Throw lol)

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I'm no BH expert, but I think Dazzling and Queenly Majesty need to go, not Psychic Surge or even Shell Smash. IMO, I think both priority-blocking abilities fit the broken ability criteria:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard

I say this due to the fact you can have 2 mons with this (most such as the Mega Mewtwo duo, maybe Mega Gyarados with Power Trip, Mega Gengar (most likely a thing) and some others I can't think of off the top of my head)you can easily use one to weaken a wall or something else for the other to clean up.

 

[Rumors]

I've been thinking about APS a bit more lately. The new updated ability clause, while much appreciated and something I've been begging for ever since, well, we got it originally, it made me realize that APS teams can still be a thing. Only now its 2 Dazzling Majesty, 2 Psychic Surge, and 2 IO/Imposter. I've also noticed you can pretty much APS anything with high offenses, not just Deo-A. Oh, you think that Kyu-B is Refrigerate? Surprise, it's APS and you just lost your Diancie trying to out Fakespeed it!

As such, I don't think simply banning only Queenly Dazzling is the solution. It would remove dedicated APS teams, but you could still have two of the same thing running Psychic Surge or a dedicated team getting Psychic Surge support. As such, I feel that we need to remove Dazzling Majesty and either Shell Smash, Focus Sash, or Psychic Surge. Getting rid of two would eliminate the strategy. The question is though, which two? I'm leaning towards either Smash or Surge personally, but I'm not sure which.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I've been thinking about APS a bit more lately. The new updated ability clause, while much appreciated and something I've been begging for ever since, well, we got it originally, it made me realize that APS teams can still be a thing. Only now its 2 Dazzling Majesty, 2 Psychic Surge, and 2 IO/Imposter. I've also noticed you can pretty much APS anything with high offenses, not just Deo-A. Oh, you think that Kyu-B is Refrigerate? Surprise, it's APS and you just lost your Diancie trying to out Fakespeed it!

As such, I don't think simply banning only Queenly Dazzling is the solution. It would remove dedicated APS teams, but you could still have two of the same thing running Psychic Surge or a dedicated team getting Psychic Surge support. As such, I feel that we need to remove Dazzling Majesty and either Shell Smash, Focus Sash, or Psychic Surge. Getting rid of two would eliminate the strategy. The question is though, which two? I'm leaning towards either Smash or Surge personally, but I'm not sure which.

I insist upon applying Item Clause (probs 1 or 2 each) but most people do not agree with it so I would say

Ban the combination of Focus Sash and Anti-Priority.

 

[SuperSkylake]

BAN SHELL SMASH
I don't know how anyone can argue that Shell Smash isn't the big problem here. Not the anti priority abilities, not psychic surge, and not Focus Sash. I've said it before, but it's like two pages back so I don't feel bad about saying it again.

If you run an antipriority ability, no other setup move increases both offensive stats as well as speed, and not even by two stages. There really is none. The closest things we have is simple z celebrate, Power Herb Geomancy or z geomancy, and both of those require an item to use. The big problem with Shell Smash is that your item AND ability slots are both free, and what differentiates it from any comparable setup move. Special walls can wall Quiver Dance, and physical walls can wall Shift Gear sets, but no mixed wall can beat Shell Smash combined with anti priority. But the anti priority isn't really the problem, it's that the smash user hits too hard to be stopped. If we banned antipriority, we'd probably have to add an -ate clause to keep --ate users in check like we did last gen. And it's not like banning Shell Smash will stop setup. There will still be Quiver Dance, and z geomancy and swords dance and Shift Gear and they'll probably actually get use a lot more if that Shell Smash is banned because, why not get a +2 boost to speed and +2 to all your offensive stats so you can simply kill whatever needs to be killed before it even has a chance of hitting you? That's how shell smash works. Put it on any offensive mon, and it becomes four times as threatening. Oh and Prankster Haze won't really stop you, as the haze user has to 1) wall you, and then 2) is basically locked into clicking haze until you don't click Shell Smash and then you have all the momentum to switch to whatever you want.

If you want to play even more high risk high reward, you can run Shell Smash with Simple to double your boosts, and perhaps a White Herb so that you have 3x attack, Special Attack and Speed without any negative defense. Good luck revenge killing that; it isn't going to happen if the smasher has 100% health, which it should have once your opponent's team has been sufficiently weakened. Power Trip has 260 bp and KOs everything without unaware. If you add Sunsteel or Moongeist beam, the only thing that walls you is Unaware Mega Gyarados, and you can easily chip that down into 2hKO range Again, not even Simple z Geomancy can compare to simple shell smash, since the opponent has a free turn to haze or topsy turvy your boosts. I just don't get how people can be arguing that Shell Smash isn't the broken element here, but if someone wants to argue for it, I would like to hear it.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

BAN SHELL SMASH
I don't know how anyone can argue that Shell Smash isn't the big problem here. Not the anti priority abilities, not psychic surge, and not Focus Sash. I've said it before, but it's like two pages back so I don't feel bad about saying it again.

If you run an antipriority ability, no other setup move increases both offensive stats as well as speed, and not even by two stages. There really is none. The closest things we have is simple z celebrate, Power Herb Geomancy or z geomancy, and both of those require an item to use. The big problem with Shell Smash is that your item AND ability slots are both free, and what differentiates it from any comparable setup move. Special walls can wall Quiver Dance, and physical walls can wall Shift Gear sets, but no mixed wall can beat Shell Smash combined with anti priority. But the anti priority isn't really the problem, it's that the smash user hits too hard to be stopped. If we banned antipriority, we'd probably have to add an -ate clause to keep --ate users in check like we did last gen. And it's not like banning Shell Smash will stop setup. There will still be Quiver Dance, and z geomancy and swords dance and Shift Gear and they'll probably actually get use a lot more if that Shell Smash is banned because, why not get a +2 boost to speed and +2 to all your offensive stats so you can simply kill whatever needs to be killed before it even has a chance of hitting you? That's how shell smash works. Put it on any offensive mon, and it becomes four times as threatening. Oh and Prankster Haze won't really stop you, as the haze user has to 1) wall you, and then 2) is basically locked into clicking haze until you don't click Shell Smash and then you have all the momentum to switch to whatever you want.

If you want to play even more high risk high reward, you can run Shell Smash with Simple to double your boosts, and perhaps a White Herb so that you have 3x attack, Special Attack and Speed without any negative defense. Good luck revenge killing that; it isn't going to happen if the smasher has 100% health, which it should have once your opponent's team has been sufficiently weakened. Power Trip has 260 bp and KOs everything without unaware. If you add Sunsteel or Moongeist beam, the only thing that walls you is Unaware Mega Gyarados, and you can easily chip that down into 2hKO range Again, not even Simple z Geomancy can compare to simple shell smash, since the opponent has a free turn to haze or topsy turvy your boosts. I just don't get how people can be arguing that Shell Smash isn't the broken element here, but if someone wants to argue for it, I would like to hear it.

I agree that Shell Smash is broken, and I think you forgot to point out these:

* Defense drops become irrelevant when paired with Focus Sash and Anti-priority.
* Imposters are also forced to play Russian Roulette speed tie game because Eviolite Boost is nullified by Defense drops, unless they are running rare Choice Scarf.
* Innards Out, if it has to be used as a last ditch effort to stop sweep, will be used with least efficiency of eliminating that sweeper left with 1 HP.

But what I do not agree is:

* White Herb or Simple leaves the user VERY vulnerable to Imposer unless they are running something like Unburden and Imprison, which is completely walled by Prankster Haze user.
*

I insist upon applying Item Clause (probs 1 or 2 each) but most people do not agree with it so I would say

Ban the combination of Focus Sash and Anti-Priority.

Shell Smash becomes pretty useless without Focus Sash.

Will MMY survive Pdon's V-create after Shell Smash boost?
Will Deo-A survive Registeel's U-turn after Shell Smash boost?
Will Mega Rayquaza survive MMY's terrain-boosted Psystrike after Shell Smash boost?
Or,
Will MMY survive Kyurem-B's Refrigerated Exspeed after Shell Smash?
Will Yvetal survive Zekrom's Galvanized Exspeed after Shell Smash even if it has White Herb?


So yes, Shell Smash is a problem. Everything you have mentioned (Anti-Priority, Shell Smash, Focus Sash) is a problem. But they are problems when they are linked to one of the other.

This user named Watatatata in PS! is circulating around ladder between 1550 and 1600. I have seen him play, and he has 4 'mons with Focus Sash and 2 Pranksters with Destiny Bond, which requires literally an inch next to no skill to use. 2 of those Sash 'mons have Shell Smash and one of them has Magic Guard with Rapid Spin. If he lost to someone, he stalks that person, memorize his team, and stall out until his opponent's win factor is gone.

Play one game with him, and you will entirely agree with me and SuperSkyLake.

So why do I mention about this user? Well, is it healthy for someone to simply and effortlessly break through teams by spamming Shell Smash with Focus Sash? This is what ShedMiddleFinga said in one of his battles when someone asked him his thoughts about Shell Smash:

"F**k Shell Smash, get the skill first."

Although we both win and lose to each other back and forth, I highly respect him as a player not only because he has excellent senses, but because he keeps his team in a form of Gen 6, which means that he purely climbs the ladder using his predictions and good team building skills. (Although him using Assist Pdon team is quite contradictory to this)

Imagine how frustrating would it be to lose against someone with 4 'mons with 2 DQM / 2 Psychic Surge with Focus Sash spamming Shell Smash until your walls are gone.

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If you wish this metagame's ladder to be based on who has more Sash-Smash spams, or think I am conspiring against the forum, you can stop reading here.

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I understand this is in OM's category but I do not want this meta to be no-skill meta.
Why do we have Wonder Guard in a banlist? Because we don't want to see Wonder Guard Air Balloon Manectric behind Substitute sweeping.
Why do we have Huge Power in a banlist? Because we don't want Rayquaza to demolish everything with Dragon Ascent outsides Fur Coat users.

What have we banned this Gen so far?

CFZ's, because all you have to do to sweep with CFZ's is knowing how to click with a finger.

What are we suspecting?

Water Bubble, because it is almost impossible to wall outsides Water Absorb, but even this sometimes fail to check Water Bubble because of Core Enforcer.

We have to make more thoughts about which factors among Focus Sash, Anti-Priority, and Shell Smash, and decide which one is the most problematic or which 2 or probably all of them cause problems when they are stapled together.

 

[Funbot28]

I really feel that we can avoid starting to implement all these complex bans and banning moves like SS when most of the problems derive from the use of APS in my opinion. Without APS in the meta, offensive teams will finally have a way to stop these setup sweepers (or at least give incentive not to setup as much) without resorting to Innards Out. To avoid all the headaches, I feel the best approach is just to get rid of APS (and IO while we are at it too), to help mitigate the offense shit fest the meta is in rn.

Also good riddance quadri sash smash teams, you wont be missed...

 

[Oberon Kagé]

So, we can all agree APS is broken and needs to be tuned down. But here's an idea:
The term we've been using is Anti-Priority Setup. So what if we institite a ban on just that?
Setup-moves with an Anti-Priority ability?

This allows defensive mons to use Anti-Priority abilities to check/counter priority spammers, while we limit the ungodly power of a focus-sashed shell smasher with 2x Atk/Spa/Spe. It would act in a similar manner to Flash Fire or Soundproof, as it allows a wall to completely negate a specific attacking strategy to focus more on surviving a specific other set of attacks (Ex: Soundproof Registeel who can invest in physical bulk to better tank FakeSpeed now that it doesn't have to tank Boomburst)

Tell me, is Mewtwo-Mega-Y under Psychic Terrain with a focus sash broken? No. Could it potentially be really good? Yes. But it's not unbeatable. You can have something that resists it that will actually survive a hit and be able to hit back, wether with an attack or with a support move. You could even run a choice scarfer to outspeed and KO (assuming broken or non-existent sash). This also gives diversity to the Mewtwo-Y player as well, as this opens up it's item slot with a lot more possibilities. Do you run choice scarf to outspeed everything and rely on natural attacking stat, turning yourself into an excellent late-game cleaner? Do you run LO/Specs to turn yourself into a strong wallbreaker with the added benefit of priority immunity?

TL;DR: Complex banning Setup on Priority-blocking abilities fixes the broken aspect of APS while encouraging diversity and choice, still keeping -ate spam and Triage in check.

 

[The Guy Who Has Many Alts]

why do we need to make complex bans when we can just ban the root of the problem? (in this case dazzling/qm) as far as I know BH has never had a complex ban and I think that should be preserved. In BH something is broken or it isn't. There is no "oh moody is only broken with power trip" or "assist is only broken with prankster". If something is broken we ban it as a whole, not ban it to "nerf" it. I'd like to once again reiterate the fact that BH should avoid complex bans at all costs. Although this meta should be kept as free as possible, and we shouldn't half heartedly make a complex ban just for the sake of keeping it. And for those who thinks triage will be broken without dazzle/qm, I'd like to remind you that except for Chansey, the "broken checks broken so we should keep it" is not a good philosophy we should be following when we decide to suspect/ban something.

To summarise:

 

[Rumors]

-ate clause was probably the closest we had to a complex ban. And look at how well that worked out by not addressing the root of the problem. We would have suspect tested them again if S/M hadn't come out last November. No leg breaking. If something is a problem then it just needs to be shot dead so we're not wasting time re-suspecting it down the line. (Hence my opinions on APS in my previous post.)


RNGIsCancer I see where you're coming from, but Item Clause just isn't going to happen since no Smogon standard meta nor OM, aside from some item-themed OMs, use Item Clause. Additionally, you're suggesting a clause that potentially impacts every single strategy and team in the game just to deal with one strategy. It's too far-reaching in its impact to implement it just to deal with APS.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

-ate clause was probably the closest we had to a complex ban. And look at how well that worked out by not addressing the root of the problem. We would have suspect tested them again if S/M hadn't come out last November. No leg breaking. If something is a problem then it just needs to be shot dead so we're not wasting time re-suspecting it down the line. (Hence my opinions on APS in my previous post.)


RNGIsCancer I see where you're coming from, but Item Clause just isn't going to happen since no Smogon standard meta nor OM, aside from some item-themed OMs, use Item Clause. Additionally, you're suggesting a clause that potentially impacts every single strategy and team in the game just to deal with one strategy. It's too far-reaching in its impact to implement it just to deal with APS.

I agree that Item Clause sounds somewhat outbreaking to the whole metagame, so that's why I suggested forbidding the pairing of Sash and Anti-Priority and made that giant dump post. But even this sounds complex as well.

If we were not to make complex ban, then we might want to consider making some limitations or bans on Shell Smash.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

What about a simple Species Clause to prevent stuff like 4x Sash Deoxys-A? One of them should be manageable with for example an Imposter Blissey or a Moldbreaker piority user.

 

[SuperSkylake]

As I've said before, no other setup move works like Shell Smash does, and that's why there's such a problem here. It's shell smash. And just think, besides being able to use more balanced setup moves!

Here is why the other parts of the APS program aren't the root cause of the problem, and why it's Shell Smash:

• Focus Sash: Nope, not at all. It's great that you can survive a hit, but Sash doesn't extremely power up the Pokemon or increase its speed, so it's not the problem.
• DQM: If DQM is part of the problem, it's less than 30% of it. It's true that without DQM, you could check Shell Smashers are lot more effectively with priority moves, but you'd still have to deal some sort of prior damage to break the sash they are probably wearing, which means you have to fodder a mon to get in your chip damager safely, probably watch that die also, and then rk it with your fakespeeder. You lose two mons unless you are carrying something like prankster haze or destiny bond or innards out, but in all of those cases you lose at least a mon.
• And the Species of Pokemon are definitely not the problem, you can put Shell Smash on any offensive mon to insanely power up its offenses. MMY, Mega Gengar, Kyurem-b, Mega Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, MMX, Pheramosa, you name it, they all can use it. Most of them can also run other sets as well. I.E.:
  • MMY can run Sheer Force. You can argue that you can check Shell Smash with the same walls, but you get more immediate power, and you get recoilless life orb, which means that you can still 2hKO stuff like Chansey that might switch in on you otherwise.
  • Mega Gengar: normalize and mega perish trap
  • Mega Rayquaza: mixed aerilate, specs aerilate, triage
  • kyurem-b: refrigerate, skill link
  mmx: triage
  and the fact that one has to account for Shell Smash on all of these makes it impossible to teambuild effectively, because you either leave yourself open to shell smash, or you leave yourself open to some other common threat in the metagame.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

I would suggest to ban Stored Power and Power Trip. In BH, a Pokemon can accumulate a lot of stat boosts easily with Shell Smash, Shift Gear, (Z-)Geomancy, Simple, Contrary, Spectral Thief, Baton Pass..., so that those moves become really powerful.
After a single (non-simple) Shell Smash or a simple Quiver Dance, those moves already have 140 base power - and the pokemon has doubled offensive stats! - so that no pokemon can survive them if it isn't bulky enough and resists them. Defensive Primal Kyogre?`No problem, OHKOed. Defensive Unaware Giratina? No problem, OHKOed - and this thing even survives Mega Diancies Fleur Cannon when at full HP! Imposter Blissey/Chansey copies you? Unburden solves this problem, even if Blissey is scarfed. Against Priority just place Psychic Terrain.

So there is nothing you can really do against a sweeper using those moves, regardles of a sash and regardless of the used boosting move. If those moves are banned, you can, for example, use an Unaware Giratina and steal their boosts with Spectral Thief to use them for your own advantage (batonpassing them onto another mon or using them with Giratina).

I use a Belly Drum/Sitrus/Unburden black Kyurem as a sweeper, but this thing can be stopped by any team which is prepared for setup sweepers. Due to Unburden and moves that are super-effective against itself, it can't be stopped by Imposters, but any bulky unaware mon stops it, so I have to prepare the sweep by weakening the Unburden user and creating a situation where I can safely set up, since I can do that only one time. Against Stored Power or Power Trip, Unaware doesn't help due to their sheer power.

 

[aki0s]

I would suggest to ban Stored Power and Power Trip. In BH, a Pokemon can accumulate a lot of stat boosts easily with Shell Smash, Shift Gear, (Z-)Geomancy, Simple, Contrary, Spectral Thief, Baton Pass..., so that those moves become really powerful.
After a single (non-simple) Shell Smash or a simple Quiver Dance, those moves already have 140 base power - and the pokemon has doubled offensive stats! - so that no pokemon can survive them if it isn't bulky enough and resists them. Defensive Primal Kyogre?`No problem, OHKOed. Defensive Unaware Giratina? No problem, OHKOed - and this thing even survives Mega Diancies Fleur Cannon when at full HP! Imposter Blissey/Chansey copies you? Unburden solves this problem, even if Blissey is scarfed. Against Priority just place Psychic Terrain.

So there is nothing you can really do against a sweeper using those moves, regardles of a sash and regardless of the used boosting move. If those moves are banned, you can, for example, use an Unaware Giratina and steal their boosts with Spectral Thief to use them for your own advantage (batonpassing them onto another mon or using them with Giratina).

I use a Belly Drum/Sitrus/Unburden black Kyurem as a sweeper, but this thing can be stopped by any team which is prepared for setup sweepers. Due to Unburden and moves that are super-effective against itself, it can't be stopped by Imposters, but any bulky unaware mon stops it, so I have to prepare the sweep by weakening the Unburden user and creating a situation where I can safely set up, since I can do that only one time. Against Stored Power or Power Trip, Unaware doesn't help due to their sheer power.

Prankster haze / Innards out says hi.

 

[tysequaine]

yeah how can it be broken if innards out checks it

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I would suggest to ban Stored Power and Power Trip. In BH, a Pokemon can accumulate a lot of stat boosts easily with Shell Smash, Shift Gear, (Z-)Geomancy, Simple, Contrary, Spectral Thief, Baton Pass..., so that those moves become really powerful.
After a single (non-simple) Shell Smash or a simple Quiver Dance, those moves already have 140 base power - and the pokemon has doubled offensive stats! - so that no pokemon can survive them if it isn't bulky enough and resists them. Defensive Primal Kyogre?`No problem, OHKOed. Defensive Unaware Giratina? No problem, OHKOed - and this thing even survives Mega Diancies Fleur Cannon when at full HP! Imposter Blissey/Chansey copies you? Unburden solves this problem, even if Blissey is scarfed. Against Priority just place Psychic Terrain.

So there is nothing you can really do against a sweeper using those moves, regardles of a sash and regardless of the used boosting move. If those moves are banned, you can, for example, use an Unaware Giratina and steal their boosts with Spectral Thief to use them for your own advantage (batonpassing them onto another mon or using them with Giratina).

I use a Belly Drum/Sitrus/Unburden black Kyurem as a sweeper, but this thing can be stopped by any team which is prepared for setup sweepers. Due to Unburden and moves that are super-effective against itself, it can't be stopped by Imposters, but any bulky unaware mon stops it, so I have to prepare the sweep by weakening the Unburden user and creating a situation where I can safely set up, since I can do that only one time. Against Stored Power or Power Trip, Unaware doesn't help due to their sheer power.

Hopefully you are aware of the fact that Power Trip and Stored Power has 20 PP without any boost, and it will be so with Prankster Haze.

What makes both moves problematic is the Shell Smash which gives gigantic boost, makes those moves' BP become 140 (I think?) while Imposters are also risked of being OHKOed.

And improofing Sash-Smash spam team isn't even hard now because when 2 Dazzling and 2 QM were possible, literally what such team did to improof their sweepers is to send Innards Out for Imposter to eliminate it once and for all.

 

[Rumors]

If I had to remove only one thing, I'd probably target Shell Smash since it would slow the APS boosting significantly, giving teams more time to react. I'd still prefer to remove Dazzling Majesty and something else with it, however.

On Stored Power Trip, I feel they're worth talking about, but that they're also a separate discussion from APS. So, later.

Semako Species clause was proposed last generation and was shut down during the suspect voting. While I'm in favor of such a thing, there's a lot of opposition and it'll take some research to come up with convincing points on why its implementation would benefit the meta as a whole. Suggesting it to stop APS has the same problems of suggesting Item Clause to stop it, unfortunately.

 

[Oberon Kagé]

As I've said before, no other setup move works like Shell Smash does, and that's why there's such a problem here. It's shell smash. And just think, besides being able to use more balanced setup moves!

Here is why the other parts of the APS program aren't the root cause of the problem, and why it's Shell Smash:

• Focus Sash: Nope, not at all. It's great that you can survive a hit, but Sash doesn't extremely power up the Pokemon or increase its speed, so it's not the problem.
• DQM: If DQM is part of the problem, it's less than 30% of it. It's true that without DQM, you could check Shell Smashers are lot more effectively with priority moves, but you'd still have to deal some sort of prior damage to break the sash they are probably wearing, which means you have to fodder a mon to get in your chip damager safely, probably watch that die also, and then rk it with your fakespeeder. You lose two mons unless you are carrying something like prankster haze or destiny bond or innards out, but in all of those cases you lose at least a mon.
• And the Species of Pokemon are definitely not the problem, you can put Shell Smash on any offensive mon to insanely power up its offenses. MMY, Mega Gengar, Kyurem-b, Mega Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, MMX, Pheramosa, you name it, they all can use it. Most of them can also run other sets as well. I.E.:
  • MMY can run Sheer Force. You can argue that you can check Shell Smash with the same walls, but you get more immediate power, and you get recoilless life orb, which means that you can still 2hKO stuff like Chansey that might switch in on you otherwise.
  • Mega Gengar: normalize and mega perish trap
  • Mega Rayquaza: mixed aerilate, specs aerilate, triage
  • kyurem-b: refrigerate, skill link
  mmx: triage
  and the fact that one has to account for Shell Smash on all of these makes it impossible to teambuild effectively, because you either leave yourself open to shell smash, or you leave yourself open to some other common threat in the metagame.

Why Focus sash is not the problem, you are correct. Shell Smash, however, isn't the problem either. Shell Smash is balanced because of the defense drops it gives, while the whole reason you use DQM and Sash is to completely mitigate those defense drops. If there was no DQM in this setup, you could easily FakeSpeed it (Fake out removing the sash, extremespeed finishing it off), if there was no sash in the set you could potentially tank a hit (with an unaware mon or something) and Ohko back with spectral thief or something.

Shell Smash is not itself inherently broken, it's the fact that DQM basically mitigates it's only weakness that allows it to be so strong. Shell Smash was never a problem before DQM, so why would it be broken after we remove it?

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Why Focus sash is not the problem, you are correct. Shell Smash, however, isn't the problem either. Shell Smash is balanced because of the defense drops it gives, while the whole reason you use DQM and Sash is to completely mitigate those defense drops. If there was no DQM in this setup, you could easily FakeSpeed it (Fake out removing the sash, extremespeed finishing it off), if there was no sash in the set you could potentially tank a hit (with an unaware mon or something) and Ohko back with spectral thief or something.

Shell Smash is not itself inherently broken, it's the fact that DQM basically mitigates it's only weakness that allows it to be so strong. Shell Smash was never a problem before DQM, so why would it be broken after we remove it?

This is my 12th time saying this in this thread. Just like he said, Shell Smash becomes problem when it is paired with ATS, although defense drop puts Imposters under the risk as well.

 

[Oberon Kagé]

This is my 12th time saying this in this thread. Just like he said, Shell Smash becomes problem when it is paired with ATS, although defense drop puts Imposters under the risk as well.

Honestly, the way I see it is that the Anti-Priority is the problem. The use of Dazzling/QM is the thing that is pushing Shell Smash over the edge. I believe that if we remove DQM, Shell Smash will see significantly less usage.

I can see your point though, I just believe that without Dazzling/QM to enable it, shell smash won't be a problem. I'm not necessarily going for the root cause of the problem, I want to vote in something that will fix it and encourage a healthy metagame without an unnecessary amount of extra bans. (Triage, -ate, etc)

why do we need to make complex bans when we can just ban the root of the problem? (in this case dazzling/qm) as far as I know BH has never had a complex ban and I think that should be preserved. In BH something is broken or it isn't. There is no "oh moody is only broken with power trip" or "assist is only broken with prankster". If something is broken we ban it as a whole, not ban it to "nerf" it. I'd like to once again reiterate the fact that BH should avoid complex bans at all costs. Although this meta should be kept as free as possible, and we shouldn't half heartedly make a complex ban just for the sake of keeping it. And for those who thinks triage will be broken without dazzle/qm, I'd like to remind you that except for Chansey, the "broken checks broken so we should keep it" is not a good philosophy we should be following when we decide to suspect/ban something.

If we institute a complex ban on Set-Up with an Anti-Priority ability, this is not a case of broken checking broken, it turns Dazzling/QM into a defensive ability, which isn't broken.

 

[Rumors]

If we institute a complex ban on Set-Up with an Anti-Priority ability, this is not a case of broken checking broken, it turns Dazzling/QM into a defensive ability, which isn't broken.

Not quite. Stuff like Scarf Y-Two would appreciate Dazzling Majesty, along with some other sets I'm not thinking of. Oh, and Baton Pass.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Prankster haze / Innards out says hi.

Dark type immunity to prankster moves says hi ;)
Also, I can't really fit Innards Out into my BH team - but maybe on primal kyogre, when Water Bubble gets banned? xD