haze ignores dark type's prankster immunity
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BH Balanced Hackmons Suspects and Bans Thread
- Thread starter E4 Flint
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Scarf Mewtwo-Y under Psychic Terrain would be good, but not unbeatable. It will get locked into a move, and that brings more counterplay to the table then we have now.
As for baton pass, it takes longer to set up, which means that there's room for counterplay before Mewtwo-Y enters the field, and Mewtwo-Y could easily take a hit on the way in. (Shell Smash gives defense drops and speed boosts, so the passer will probably move first, sending in a vulnerable Mewtwo-Y)
Yeah haze is a field effect, not a move that targets a single pokemon. (Think of prankster Rain Dance, except this condition removes all current stat boosts)
I'm with ya here, except I never really want to :p It's too much fun creating teams full of unique and interesting stuff to just slap a Chansey on there and call it a day.
To clarify the above, the immunity only exists if the prankster influenced move targets the dark type. Which is one of the reasons why haze is used over heart swap now.
Even so, the Prankster is forced to spam Haze until its opponent decides to stop spam Shell Smash, and it gives the attacker momentum overall. I think someone mentioned this previously but I felt like I need to point this out again.
Sure, if haze is your main method. I've been using this on the ladder with the current state of the meta and it helps.
Giratina @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze
- U-turn
- Roost
- Destiny Bond
Essentially when you can't spam haze, worst case you d-bond and take care of them. It has it's problems, sure - but it does help.
The Prankster can decide to select an attack. M-Audino sometimes carries Moonblast;
4 SpA Audino-Mega Moonblast vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 342-404 (97.4 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
The trend is going to offensive Pranksters.
This set is untested;
Prankster (Kyurem-Black) @ Saftey Googles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: ...
Adamant Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Icicle Spear
- Spectral Thief
- Haze/Defog/Filter
You simply use the fact that APS uses no priority.
This is THE standart Prankster right now. Its not my style but it does its job very well.
4 SpA Audino-Mega Moonblast vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 342-404 (97.4 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
The trend is going to offensive Pranksters.
This set is untested;
Prankster (Kyurem-Black) @ Saftey Googles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: ...
Adamant Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Icicle Spear
- Spectral Thief
- Haze/Defog/Filter
You simply use the fact that APS uses no priority.
This is THE standart Prankster right now. Its not my style but it does its job very well.
I use this set:
Giratina @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Ability: Unaware
- Spectral Thief
- Baton Pass
- Shore Up
- Will-O-Wisp / Moongeist Bean / Dragon Tail
The stolen boosts are usually passed to Primal Kyogre, who then sweeps with the Water Bubble boosted Steam Eruption.
Is this so far worse than the prankster set?
Giratina @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Ability: Unaware
- Spectral Thief
- Baton Pass
- Shore Up
- Will-O-Wisp / Moongeist Bean / Dragon Tail
The stolen boosts are usually passed to Primal Kyogre, who then sweeps with the Water Bubble boosted Steam Eruption.
Is this so far worse than the prankster set?
I doubt that it will take Moongeist Beam from Mega Gengar after Shell Smash.
I also have an Imposter Blissey for cases like this ;) And I can trick it a Ring Target to prevent Normalize Entrainment shenanigans.
Pls provide quality.
Gen6 ;
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Giratina: 306-360 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gen7 ;
+2 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I just realised the damage calculator takes off the boost factor if you select Unaware on the target.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ (try out Moongeist vs Unaware calcs yourself)
Unaware cant be Ghost weak anymore. See what happened to my favorite Gen6 Unaware;
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Latias-Mega: 176-210 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Latias-Mega: 440-518 (121.2 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To be fair Unaware was always a mixed bag against Shell Smash as it ignores the targets defense drops aswell.
From that point of view Unaware Giratina is at disadvantage even if it would have lived and carried Moongeist Beam itself.
0 SpA Giratina Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 224-266 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO.
Every other ability would have 1HKO -1 SpD M-Gengar 100% of the time.
You are better of using Prankster Copycat/ Imprision/Haze/Spore/Destiny Bond.
Gen6 ;
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Giratina: 306-360 (60.7 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Gen7 ;
+2 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I just realised the damage calculator takes off the boost factor if you select Unaware on the target.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/ (try out Moongeist vs Unaware calcs yourself)
Unaware cant be Ghost weak anymore. See what happened to my favorite Gen6 Unaware;
252 SpA Spooky Plate Gengar-Mega Judgment vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Assault Vest Unaware Latias-Mega: 176-210 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 224+ SpD Latias-Mega: 440-518 (121.2 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To be fair Unaware was always a mixed bag against Shell Smash as it ignores the targets defense drops aswell.
From that point of view Unaware Giratina is at disadvantage even if it would have lived and carried Moongeist Beam itself.
0 SpA Giratina Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 224-266 (85.8 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO.
Every other ability would have 1HKO -1 SpD M-Gengar 100% of the time.
You are better of using Prankster Copycat/ Imprision/Haze/Spore/Destiny Bond.
My Giratina is not meant as a Gengar counter since Imposter Blissey does that already. Against other Setup Sweepers that aren't dark/ghost type, it works fairly well.
I'm really not sure which ability is the best for my Deoxys-Speed (@ Ring Target; Trick, Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp, Spore) I'm currently running mold breaker to ignore opposing Magic Bounce, but maybe changing it to Prankster and add Haze over WoW/Spore is a good option?
I'm really not sure which ability is the best for my Deoxys-Speed (@ Ring Target; Trick, Stealth Rock, Will-O-Wisp, Spore) I'm currently running mold breaker to ignore opposing Magic Bounce, but maybe changing it to Prankster and add Haze over WoW/Spore is a good option?
Can I just say, the last few posts have had nothing to do with any potential bans. Can we try to keep it more relevant by demonstrating how these sets provide counterplay for APS or that kinda thing?
To me it seems there are plenty of checks to APS, but most of these checks seem to die or be weakened beyond repair in the process. It seems reasonable to have prankster haze/Dbond, innards out and an unaware Pokemon, but then you would still lose to a team with 4 APS assuming they carried coverage for your unaware. So to me I think the fact that you have to dedicate the majority of your team to stopping it makes it broken or unhealthy at least.
As to my opinion on how to deal with it I would say either ban the abilities or Shell Smash since it is the nature of the one turn setup that makes it so dangerous (not very conclusive sorry).
To me it seems there are plenty of checks to APS, but most of these checks seem to die or be weakened beyond repair in the process. It seems reasonable to have prankster haze/Dbond, innards out and an unaware Pokemon, but then you would still lose to a team with 4 APS assuming they carried coverage for your unaware. So to me I think the fact that you have to dedicate the majority of your team to stopping it makes it broken or unhealthy at least.
As to my opinion on how to deal with it I would say either ban the abilities or Shell Smash since it is the nature of the one turn setup that makes it so dangerous (not very conclusive sorry).
We have many stances on Focus Sash, Shell Smash, and anti-priority abilities. We were discussing about which one is the most problematic, or which combination causes the most serious issue, until someone pulled out some examples about Prankster set to check ATS users and many people got sidetracked, apparently.
Also about what you said, Shell Smash will barely have viability if it is not paired with D / QM because FakeSpeed from -ate just instantly removes the user.
But for now I got phazing moves on all of my supports, such as Dragon Tail on PH Giratina, Circle Throw (kicks Diancie out) on Mega Slowbro, and alternatively optional Whirlwind on Mega Audino, because some disgusting teams still have 2 Dazzling and 2 Psychic Surge with one Innards Out Chansey to do their so-called "improofing".
What about using multi-hit attacking moves more? Then, Sashes won't be as problematic, if you couldn't lay out your Stealth Rocks. Bonemerang and Gear Grind are nice, if you don't have Skill Link as your ability, otherwise Icicle Spear and Rock Blast are possible too (not Shuriken, this is a priority move, and blocked by Psyterrain and Dazzling Majesty).
That is why I have scarfed Pdon in my team, which can OHKO MMY with Bone Rush with about 84 percent of chance, factoring accuracy.
Also Sash-Smash teams have ridiculously heavy anti-hazard support, such as wasting one party slot to use Deoxys-S to simply taunt someone, set one thing, and die.
This set is untested;
Prankster (Kyurem-Black) @ Saftey Googles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: ...
Adamant Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Icicle Spear
- Spectral Thief
- Haze/Defog/Filter
You simply use the fact that APS uses no priority.
I personally found a Lopunny-M set on ladder that was extremely effective, and it definitely has priority.
Bunny Slut (Lopunny-Mega) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
I love me some Bunny butt. ;)
I see thats your first message, so I would say welcome to Smogon Forums.
If you want your stuff rated, try finding the thread about Rating cetain sets for Other Metagames.
This is more like a place where we discuss issues about the meta :]
Why are we discussing Triage when we were specifically told not to?
"Please do not talk about the ramifications of possibly banning/limiting any of the above as evidence for any side e.g. if we ban them, Triage will be broken so we should keep them etc"
Why are people saying Focus Sash or Shell Smash is the broken part? We all agree that not being able to revenge kill them sucks, and isn't Dazzling the part that's keeping us from effectively revenging the sweeper??
I don't get what's going on here?
Also, I know lots of people feel like Dazzling and QM would be much healthier if they announced their presence and I agree w/ em bc you think it's safe to fakespeed on a mewtwo and then boom, your fakespeed doesnt hit and the mewtwo is standing there without a scratch, ready to use whatever move it wants to use. It gives the opponent a free turn to do whatever they want to do which can mean game over if you're against a skilled player.
Also APS can use priority, actually PDT and I made a team that has a self-improofing gigas using APS. We went with Extreme Speed/Spectral Thief/Shell Smash/Frustration as our moveset. Nobody uses min happiness Chansey so Frustration has a bp of 1 when they send their Imposter in and Espeed is there bc it's a strong priority attack that doesn't hit you. It's walled by Ttar but it's pretty effective otherwise especially since nobody uses Ttar as much anymore. Let's not pretend that APS doesn't use priority, that assumption is just wrong.
"Please do not talk about the ramifications of possibly banning/limiting any of the above as evidence for any side e.g. if we ban them, Triage will be broken so we should keep them etc"
Why are people saying Focus Sash or Shell Smash is the broken part? We all agree that not being able to revenge kill them sucks, and isn't Dazzling the part that's keeping us from effectively revenging the sweeper??
I don't get what's going on here?
Also, I know lots of people feel like Dazzling and QM would be much healthier if they announced their presence and I agree w/ em bc you think it's safe to fakespeed on a mewtwo and then boom, your fakespeed doesnt hit and the mewtwo is standing there without a scratch, ready to use whatever move it wants to use. It gives the opponent a free turn to do whatever they want to do which can mean game over if you're against a skilled player.
Also APS can use priority, actually PDT and I made a team that has a self-improofing gigas using APS. We went with Extreme Speed/Spectral Thief/Shell Smash/Frustration as our moveset. Nobody uses min happiness Chansey so Frustration has a bp of 1 when they send their Imposter in and Espeed is there bc it's a strong priority attack that doesn't hit you. It's walled by Ttar but it's pretty effective otherwise especially since nobody uses Ttar as much anymore. Let's not pretend that APS doesn't use priority, that assumption is just wrong.
I'm worried for your future
Actually, I was replying to the guy who said APS doesn't run priority. Some do, like the set I mentioned. Also, been around a while, just recently decided to make an account and post. Thanks for the welcome anyway :).
I'm joking lol, relax. :p
The reasoning for shell smash being discussed as broken is that in the situation that you used fake out on a QM Pokémon and you waste a turn: if they use shell smash they get to +2, outspeed all your Pokemon, have very powerful stored power trip and generally break through your checks, if they can't use shell smash they can either attack and probably kill a mon or use another setup move which gets them to +1 (or geomancy or whatever and waste an item) which yeah I agree isn't looking great for you but doesn't seem like you are immediately in a losing position. The only reason I mention it is it might be a possibile alternative that achieves the same thing with a smaller negative effect.
I'm thinking about using False Swipe on my Belly Drum Kyurem-Black to bypass Innards Out Chanseys, but sadly it is missing in the calculator, so that I can't calc to see how much damage it will do against them.
Is using False Swipe against Innards out on a Belly Drum mon a good idea or not? have you tried it before?
And does Magic Guard protect against Innards Out?
Is using False Swipe against Innards out on a Belly Drum mon a good idea or not? have you tried it before?
And does Magic Guard protect against Innards Out?
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You can't change the base power of moves in the teambuilder, just use any normal move and replace the base power with 40, or use a move with the same base power like fake out:
+6 252+ Atk Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Chansey: 7624-8971 (1082.9 - 1274.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
False swipe means you can bring it low on the switch, but if chansey comes in on the turn you drum it can either metal burst or just click pain split / recovery so it will still beat you 1v1. I haven't tried it but I can't imagine it being too good.
Magic guard does protect against IO and it's quite decent on some shell smash sweepers because you can keep your sash intact, but I wouldn't call it counterplay since the opponent has no reason to send an innhards out mon on a magic guard unless you bluff another ability.
Here's a cool set I've been using:
Diancie-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 160 Atk / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Rash Nature
- Precipice Blades
- Light of Ruin
- Shell Smash
- Sunsteel Strike
Beats Imposter, Innards out and Shedinja. Is a great wincon because it always keeps the sash intact and ppl usually just expect pixilate in team preview. Just break sashes and make sure there's no prio left.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-539602409
Other than that the most reliable way to beat innhards out was gengar with gengarite and encore + perish song (it's also generally an excellent pokemon) and a magic guard mon with pursuit (or just pursuit on a mon you don't care about).
Some nice discussion, please keep this kind of discussion up.
Btw voting for Water Bubble has begun. For more details, check here.
For APS I am considering the following options:
I am not against an Item Clause, but it shouldn't be put into place for a single item. You'd have to prove that spamming multiples of the same items for a lot of different items is broken. If you want to argue for a complete ban on Focus Sash, you can begin discussion on that.
I would also like to mention that this suspect will most likely be a lot more difficult than other suspects due to this being a pretty widespread problem and the vote carrying more importance here.
Btw voting for Water Bubble has begun. For more details, check here.
For APS I am considering the following options:
- Ban Dazzling and Queenly Majesty ONLY
- Ban Psychic Surge ONLY
- Ban Shell Smash ONLY
- Both 1 and 2
- 1, 2 and 3
I am not against an Item Clause, but it shouldn't be put into place for a single item. You'd have to prove that spamming multiples of the same items for a lot of different items is broken. If you want to argue for a complete ban on Focus Sash, you can begin discussion on that.
I would also like to mention that this suspect will most likely be a lot more difficult than other suspects due to this being a pretty widespread problem and the vote carrying more importance here.
Whenever I use that type of sweeper I keep an eye out for which Pokemon have Prankster and which don't and if none of them do, I can almost immediately sweep. If a Pokemon has Prankster, then I just need to eliminate that Pokemon from play. So no, if your opponent just Shell Smashes from the beginning without removing your Pokemon that can deal with it, you're not in a losing position. If your opponent is mildly skilled and knows how to play, though, this type of strategy can quickly become problematic.
There's literally no reason to ban Shell Smash. You highlighted all of the positives that Shell Smash provides but you casually glossed over the decreases to your defenses which makes it that much easier to revenge kill with priority moves. That's where Dazzling comes in and that's why you can't revenge kill Shell Smash sweepers. The broken element isn't Shell Smash and quite frankly I really don't understand why people are getting this idea? I don't like how people are casually looking over how useful a free turn can be for a skilled player... You aren't immediately in a losing position, no, but it makes the game that much easier for a player and I believe your post is woefully understating how useful a free turn can be.
I don't know how I can make this post more clear so if you see any holes in my argument or anything, please point them out so I can address them because holy fuck I don't like how people are lying to themselves about how Shell Smash is the issue.
Yes
e: option 4 imo
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Hi, just dropping in to tell you why shell smash is not broken.
So the quote below seems to be the summarization of the argument, and to that I say...
To the point of using fake out on a Queenly Majesty / Dazzling Pokemon: Seems more like your saying QM / Dazzling is broken, not Shell Smash.
"if they use shell smash they get to +2, outspeed all your Pokemon, have very powerful stored power trip and generally break through your checks": Hi, meet the moves Spectral Thief, Heart Swap, Haze, Roar, Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, etc.
- Unaware and Prankster Haze and Heart Swap literally beat Shell Smash, and I will prove it if need be.
- if they can't use shell smash they can either attack and probably kill a mon or use another setup move which gets them to +1 (or geomancy or whatever and waste an item) which yeah I agree isn't looking great for you but doesn't seem like you are immediately in a losing position.: Boi, if they run shell smash, it's probably because they need it to outpower and break the opponent's teams. Especially since Power Trip / Stored Power die w/o smash boosts ???
Literally what I'm getting from the argument is that you all just can't prepare for it, ngl.
Just run like Unaware Bulkveltal and you win against most smashers.
Of course, it has it's counters, but it beats smash p easily.
So the quote below seems to be the summarization of the argument, and to that I say...
To the point of using fake out on a Queenly Majesty / Dazzling Pokemon: Seems more like your saying QM / Dazzling is broken, not Shell Smash.
"if they use shell smash they get to +2, outspeed all your Pokemon, have very powerful stored power trip and generally break through your checks": Hi, meet the moves Spectral Thief, Heart Swap, Haze, Roar, Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, etc.
- Unaware and Prankster Haze and Heart Swap literally beat Shell Smash, and I will prove it if need be.
- if they can't use shell smash they can either attack and probably kill a mon or use another setup move which gets them to +1 (or geomancy or whatever and waste an item) which yeah I agree isn't looking great for you but doesn't seem like you are immediately in a losing position.: Boi, if they run shell smash, it's probably because they need it to outpower and break the opponent's teams. Especially since Power Trip / Stored Power die w/o smash boosts ???
Literally what I'm getting from the argument is that you all just can't prepare for it, ngl.
Just run like Unaware Bulkveltal and you win against most smashers.
Yveltal @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / something
- Spectral Thief
- King's Shield
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / something
- Spectral Thief
- King's Shield
Of course, it has it's counters, but it beats smash p easily.
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