Unpopular opinions

Let's also not forget that we have no idea what psychological abuse Lillie had gone through at the hands of Lusamine. By her actions I wouldn't be surprised if she had an inferiority complex, her mother caring very little for what she wanted and preferring to focus on the Ultra Beasts. Lusamine probably multiple times told Lillie she might not be worthy of her love when/if she acted up or against what Lusamine wanted. Lusamine is a terrible person, but she's still is Lillie's mother and being rejected and abandoned by your own mother, especially one you had fond memories of growing up and it's only recent times she started acting harshly, can be very traumatic. Especially for someone who was as sheltered as Lillie.

Why doesn't Lillie become a trainer during the the game? Well let's remember Lillie's upbringing was in the Aether Foundation and their conservation ideology. She doesn't like Pokemon getting hurt, and Pokemon get hurt when battling. But her interactions with the player and Hau showed her that trainers wouldn't have their Pokemon battle until they would seriously hurt themselves as she was probably raise to imagine, but rather trainer battles is recreational for both Pokemon and trainer and meant to strengthen the bond between them, between people and Pokemon. This can be shown with Lillie's and Nebby's relationship. Lillie never wanted Nebby to do anything, worried it would get hurt and keeping it hidden in her bag. But Nebby kept escaping, and it was only until recently did she decide to take Nebby to the Tapu's ruins. Lillie was protecting Nebby, but she wasn't thinking what Nebby wanted thus why it kept disobeying her. Her finally helping Nebby do what it wanted, while also protecting it, allowed it to become the Legendary Pokemon. This and witnessing our Island Challenge showed her what a trainer was which let her decide to start her own journey.

Yes, Lillie had Mary Sue traits, but I feel that's pulling from another trope she fully represents: the Woobie. You feel sorry for her at first due to her shrinking violet personality but then for her past. She's kind and polite which explains why the majority of people like/are friendly toward her. But she is missing some Mary Sue traits. She's not perfect, we're told and shown she her skills are limited though she tries her best. And while she has importance she's unable to do anything without help from others, even when she becomes her "Z Form" she needs Gladion to give her the Sun/Moon Flute and the player to accompany her. Now I'm not saying you should or shouldn't like her, there is reasons for both (it's as if she's a well-rounded characters...), but she's not a Mary Sue. Compare Lillie to an actual Mary Sue-ish character, Zinnia, and you'll see how she differs from a Mary Sue.
Hit's the nail on the head. The big difference for me is that Lillie has a growth arc, but Zinnia doesn't. So Zinnia feels like a Mary Sue while Lillie is much more enjoyable/tolerable.

If you really analyze it, Lillie has the most parallels with Bianca from Black/White.

It's really the little details that make the difference. If it wasn't for letting Nebby go, or for her resolving to become a trainer and go to Kanto, I'd be singing an entirely different tune about Lillie.
 
Siggu said:
Gladion and Lusamine do much more in the much lower screentime they have.
It's important to understand that Gladion/Lusamine served completely different purposes to the plot than Lillie, or really any other character. Characters like the former have to monopolize the amount of screen time they earn by acting as major catalysts to the plot. Each time Gladion or Lusamine came around, something dramatic occurred in the storyline, with perhaps one exception in Gladion's case. Conversely, Lillie was more of a guide for general plot movement, indicating what the next step should be at various times, some points more on the nose than others. The presence of both types of characters is intrinsic to good storytelling, so I appreciated all of them; however, I can understand the frustration at seeing Lillie so much, but feeling like she was underwhelming in the grand scheme of things.
 
What needs to be noted about Lillie is that they don't brush her issues under the rug outright. The game never trumpets her to be some all important figure you have to protect and respect. She's just a friend of yours asking for help to go out and see the Region while she tries to help Nebby. She and the game are fully aware that she's not the most capable individual in the context of a Pokemon world, and the resolution to her arc is about how she grew/improved as a person, not as a trainer. In fact, her decision to travel to Kanto and become a trainer while seeking help for her mother. Her arc was about growing out of the shadow of her mother's control freak parenting, which is seen, corny as it may be, through small things like the clothing changes and how she comes across as a parent to Nebby. Calling Lillie clumsily written is a fair point, but she's a poor fit to the Mary Sue idea since they don't prop her up compared to everyone else and ignore/downplay her legitimate character flaws. The overall friendliness to Lillie is easily chalked up to Pokemon's overall light-hearted and kid oriented tone.

I can contrast Zinnia, but I've ranted about this before and I already made the case for Lillie herself, so I'll hide this part for those unconcerned.
Zinnia I put much more squarely into Mary Sue territory than Lillie, as she fits the overall idea of the trope much more when observing her actions and treatment.

- She's introduced with minimal explanation (they allude to her once in the story that I recall incognito before the Delta Episode) and is already good enough to effortlessly win battles against basically everyone except the player character.
- The game never acknowledges the number of things she blatantly does wrong, which include mugging your rival, the reforming Team Leader, basically trash talking Steven and an entire team of scientists trying to solve a crisis, knocking the player out for no reason (just a lazy excuse to choose the cutscene time and lighting), breaks the Link Cable (which, imperfect solution or not, is still a scientific breakthrough if it can connect to other dimensions!), and basically refuses to ever explain to anyone what she's trying to do.
- Her backstory is something that was never alluded to or name dropped anywhere significant in the game, which makes it feel like this "awesome" invented backstory to make Zinnia seem more credible. Planting it somewhere with a bit more weight would have been nice, even if it was just some notes in the Draco Meteor tutor's house or something. If I missed it, I think that entails it might have been done too subtly for how much that information would be needed to enrich the story
- Her personality is one note and, in my opinion, insufferable. All I remember her doing is showing up, beating someone before you arrive, smack talking them for being weak, smack talking Steven for being the former champion (see how well your dragons do against this guy), and generally carry this air of "listen to me, I know better than them". This despite doing nothing to actually back up her claim (mention Rayquaza to the Space Center, might be easier to get the Mega Rings and some help if you're not being a criminal) and the fact that her plan legitimately would have failed had it not been for the player coincidentally having a Meteorite to imbue Rayquaza with this power. Having the success of a good guy come down to a coincidence is a juvenile story telling technique.

Zinnia just does all this stuff wrong, is smug about it for most of the episode, and yet her plan's success comes down to a coincidence overall. Her flaws go unacknowledged, there's no proper apology or comeuppance for the things she objectively did that hurt people, and she just vanishes after that. I almost head canon that Rayquaza could Mega Evolve already, but it didn't sync or connect with Zinnia because of how callous and stupid her behavior was. What she did was the equivalent of starting a Fire instead of just calling the Fire department, and as part of a tribe that literally worships Rayquaza, she's the last person who should have to do that.

It's rare that it happens, but this character legitimately soured me on the Delta Episode Story if not the Gen 3 remakes.
 
The thing about Lillie is that her whole arc it's about her being passive and her trying to become (but never actually managing to be onscreen) active

If you don't like Lillie is cause she's a deliberate damsel in distress; she's also a comment on what's wrong about being a damssel in distress but she's one nonetheless

As for her being a trainer, well she's not think about how people who participate in contest are called coordinators, or how people that train pokemon for pokeathlons are pokeathletes
pokemon trianers are probably defined as people who train pokemon for battles (which is the more "active" and "adventorous" thing you can do with pokemon) so people who have pokemon but don't train them for battle probably aren't considered "pokemon trainers"

I mean just look at your mom's meowth, it's presentd as a "pet" not a "battle partner"

EDIT: As for Zinnia, she's awful because she's as bad as Lysandre but the characters refuse to acknowledge her as anything but a hero thus leading to her whole story seeming hollow and forced
 
I don't think it's anything wrong to be a damsel in distress honestly she took care of her mom that's the goal and it would be forced as hell and generic making her into a battler. she's likeable and I don't care about defying tropes if the trope is done properly, hell the reason why a trope is a trope is because it's effective.
 
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I've thought since Gen V that the next games should take place in a region inspired by China. Think of a legendary Chinese dragon or Chinese guardian lion, and tell me that doesn't do something for you.
 
I think the Damsel-in-Distress trope has gotten a bad rap for connotations it was attached to in old stories, but I don't think it's an inherently "wrong" role for a character to play in and of itself.

In older media, the D-i-D trope was attached to characters who not only had no personality, but no other function or agency. The classic game example is Princess Peach, but she gets this reputation because she also had no other role than "the girl for Mario to rescue". And without delving too deeply into the topic, there was the perception of it making said damsel into a trophy for the player. The root of the disdain is that in the past, most times the damsel failed to also be a sufficient character. Even as they managed to improve the latter, the stigma against the trope itself has persisted, with only partial justification at this point.

Lillie is indeed a Damsel in Distress role, but I don't see why this detracts from her quality as a character to the story. In a world like Pokemon, it's reasonable to think not everyone would be very capable of defending themselves from thugs or big criminals, ranging from randoms to Team Skull to Team Rocket. We just got used to the idea that "everyone's a trainer" because playing as one ourselves puts us most directly in contact with those types; the anime shows there's other important roles Pokemon "users" can fill, whether it's everyday jobs or other competitions like Racing or Contests. Lillie's arc isn't about her going from being normal to a powerful badass trainer like your character, it's about her going from a meek and abused child to being a fairly normal person: she's not getting to where you are, she's at best aiming for where you STARTED. It serves a purpose because Team Skull knows from Lusamine that she's both an easy and important target, there's a reason to be concerned for Lillie besides the villain's trying to get to you or you expecting a reward. If anything, it says more that they had to take Lillie when their only real concern was Nebby.

Lillie is closer to the acceptable application, as she is a developed character who reasonably plays a Damsel in Distress at one point, rather than being invented simply to play the role for a story beat.
 
I've thought since Gen V that the next games should take place in a region inspired by China. Think of a legendary Chinese dragon or Chinese guardian lion, and tell me that doesn't do something for you.
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Joke aside, I'm open to a Chinese region just as much as any other we haven't seen yet. And there are plenty of other Chinese myths to base Pokemon off of (though they'd also probably throw in some other Asian mythological creatures too). I'd like to see Pokemon's take on a Jiangshi (hopping zombie vampire), Dragon Turtle, and Longma (dragon horse). I'd also be interested to see if they do anything with the Chinese Zodiac, Chinese Constellation (no, the Kami Trio don't count; though there's another version which uses all dragons instead (keeping the Azure and Yellow Dragon)), or Nine Sons of the Dragon.
 
I've thought since Gen V that the next games should take place in a region inspired by China. Think of a legendary Chinese dragon or Chinese guardian lion, and tell me that doesn't do something for you.

Well, I am biased due to where I live, but want the same but for Latin America. It could actually be a decent opportunity to abuse the typical mistake of non-latin american media to mix all cultures into one (Mayincatec) and have a big pool of deities and mythological creatures to choose.

(It would also be a good way to add cool animals such as the jaguar, anaconda, condor, the Galapagos tortoise or the tegu lizard AKA not-Komodo Dragon)
 
I've thought since Gen V that the next games should take place in a region inspired by China. Think of a legendary Chinese dragon or Chinese guardian lion, and tell me that doesn't do something for you.
While China is probably getting a region at some point don't expect the legendaries to be inspired by chinese folklore

Never forget the ying-yang dragons of new york, nordic mythology of france and the lion of hawaii
(ok so hawaii also has a bat, but it's not like bats a revered in hawaiian mytholgy either; if anything hawaii should have a squidoctopus to reference kanaloa)
 
Taking genwunning to a bit of an extreme here - purely from a design perspective, I think Pokemon generations should have stopped after Gen II :/

I think Gens I and II set the perfect tone with the design of their Pokemon - gritty, sinister, sort of spooky - they were monsters. It's a difficult quality to define, but somehow, with very few exceptions, the designs from Gen III onwards lost it.

With its addition of a mere 100 Pokemon, Gen II was a perfect supplement to the existing 151 - it balanced the Psychic type, it expanded with some interesting but still faithful evolutions, and the few original families it did introduce hold their own from a design perspective.

Form differences, new evolutions, regional variants and Mega Evolutions could all have been rolled out in successive 'generations' - but I would have preferred to see these applied to the original 251 instead of being drowned in another 500 average designs. I don't think it's a coincidence that Alolan variants and Mega Evolutions were mainly applied to Gen I - GF knows that there's untapped potential there and I think some of their best work in the last decade has been returning to these, not coming up with new ones.

Again, all of this ^ is purely from a design perspective - every Gen's new wave of additions has obviously done wonders for the competitive scene and give it a regular, fresh injection of variety so that competitive battle stays unpredictable and avoids stagnation.

But looking at the Pokemon games as a 'body of design'- for every valuable contribution made by Gens III - VII, it's been swamped by nine garbage ones.
 
Form differences, new evolutions, regional variants and Mega Evolutions could all have been rolled out in successive 'generations' - but I would have preferred to see these applied to the original 251 instead of being drowned in another 500 average designs. I don't think it's a coincidence that Alolan variants and Mega Evolutions were mainly applied to Gen I - GF knows that there's untapped potential there and I think some of their best work in the last decade has been returning to these, not coming up with new ones.
I understand your point - even if I don't quite agree with it and feel it's a bit of a negative viewpoint considering each later generations' different design ethos and style - but let's not think megas/form differences being applied mostly to Gen 1 Pokémon has any more reason behind it than that they're the most popular and well-recognised. It's very much cynical marketing.
 
Taking genwunning to a bit of an extreme here - purely from a design perspective, I think Pokemon generations should have stopped after Gen II :/

...

I can sort of see where you're coming from, but I'm glad they didn't stop there. There are a few really good Gen II Pokémon, but the amount of bad ones is truly staggering.

Since you're talking about design only, I guess this post counts as a separate unpopular opinion, but... I really dislike most of the Gen II Pokémon. It gave us staples such as Feraligatr, Ampharos, Scizor and Heracross, but also a whole slew of single-stage completely underwhelming Pokémon: Murkrow, Dunsparce, Delibird, Girafarig, Yanma, Unown, Aipom, Qwilfish, Corsola, Stantler... just to name a few. These Pokémon have few to none qualities when it comes to battles or in-game utility, no reason to catch them other than filling the Pokédex.

Gen IV was a boon to many of these Pokémon, adding evolutions to Pokémon that really needed it. But have a look at those that didn't get one. There's so much bottom-of-the-barrel crud in Johto's Pokédex. In many cases they were well-designed, but their execution was pretty terrible. I consider Gen VII to have introduced an awful lot of underwhelming Pokémon, but it doesn't hold a candle to Gen II when it comes to mediocrity. There are gems here and there, but the amount of single- or dual-stage Jokémons in Gen II is almost impressive. Let's hope there will one day be another generation like Gen IV, that does something to the crapmons we've seen since then.
 
I remember posting this somewhere before, but considering the period the franchise was in when GSC came out, I think Gen II was meant to essentially be DLC to RBY, in terms of both Pokemon and the Kanto region since Game Freak really didn't know just how long the whole Pokemon "fad" would last at that point in time. I think that unfortunately led to the majority of design focus being placed on the cross-gen RBY evos and baby mons over the standalone GSC species. Mix that with the fact that Game Freak didn't really know jack about competitive (or even proper casual) battling at this point, and it's fairly easy to see why so many Johto mons ended up just dex filler over the RBY mons and cross-evos, though it doesn't really make it any less excusable.

I love Gen I and II just as much as any other guy who was playing Pokemon in that era, but I'm definitely glad they didn't stop at Gen II; when I look back at the GB/GBC games, it's honestly amazing to see just how much the games have evolved (pun partially intended) since the franchise's early days. The Pokemon are overall better both in terms of design and usability, and the games are far more streamlined in terms of gameplay, especially when conpared to the glitchfest that is RBY or the terribad level curve that is GSC.

No u
 
In my honest opinion, new Pokemon should've stopped at gen 4. It was the peak of design imo, with every Pokemon in that region feeling unique and extremely cool, and with some of the best post gen evolutions to date. (Gliscor, Weavile, Yanmega <3) It was the best competitively by far too, even by Battle Frontier rules all the Pokemon (minus Garchomp, sand veil broke an already strong mon) were actually fairly manageable and weren't immensely powercrept, (competitively SuMo is unplayable for me lol) which allows for predictions to be the main thing about battling except for gen 5 onwards where it just became pure statistics, which was amazing.

Not saying Pokemon the franchise should've ended, but the designs for Pokemon should've been less and severely limited. Event new and creative methods to make the game interesting, maybe introduce some stuff like team preview and things as time goes on, but there shouldn't have been that many more Pokemon past 493.
 
In my honest opinion, new Pokemon should've stopped at gen 4. It was the peak of design imo, with every Pokemon in that region feeling unique and extremely cool, and with some of the best post gen evolutions to date. (Gliscor, Weavile, Yanmega <3) It was the best competitively by far too, even by Battle Frontier rules all the Pokemon (minus Garchomp, sand veil broke an already strong mon) were actually fairly manageable and weren't immensely powercrept, (competitively SuMo is unplayable for me lol) which allows for predictions to be the main thing about battling except for gen 5 onwards where it just became pure statistics, which was amazing.

Not saying Pokemon the franchise should've ended, but the designs for Pokemon should've been less and severely limited. Event new and creative methods to make the game interesting, maybe introduce some stuff like team preview and things as time goes on, but there shouldn't have been that many more Pokemon past 493.
Gen IV would have been not been a good end, especially the Sinnoh games. No denying the positive points you've made, but it also had the worst engine with molasses speed battles and saving while HMs reached their critical mass of stupid. HeartGold and SoulSilver made some improvements over the Sinnoh games, but they also retained issues present in the original Gold and Silver (like the horrible level curve and Pokémon distribution) so they're ultimately a mixed bag.
 
I don't feel that Pokemon designs needed to stop at any generation. While each generation has its highs and lows of designs, none of them really surpass the other to such a large scale to me. I have Pokemon that I like from all generations. There are some cool designs in Gen 7 that, if Pokemon had stopped new designs at whatever generation, would cease to be. Pokemon designs stopping in general is a weird thought - why bother stopping the creation of what drives the franchise?
 
Xen Does that explain the abundance of (former and current) junk rares, such as Wobbuffet, Yanma, and so on? Delibird is a big offender of that trope. No wonder the CAPs used to prey on it before Gen 5's Projects.

Also, I would prefer that new Pokémon are made until Game Freak reaches 999. They can't exceed one-thousand Pokédex spaces right now.
 
New pokemon are one of the things I look forward to when each new gen is announced. I was never on the "pokemon designs are getting worse/game freak is running out of ideas" train. There are bad designs in every gen, and to me, it always made sense that there'd be more pokemon with each new region. There are millions of creatures in our own world, why stop making pokemon at say, 151? (I know no one here said that it should've stopped there, but I've seen people who have.) Sounds like it'd be extremely limiting in terms of world building and variety. We've got a lot more now, but I'm not tired of seeing new mons yet. There's inspiration all around, so I'd love to see what else game freak can create. Some ugly/uninspired designs won't ruin that for me, at least, not for now. Not like every irl creature is a thing of beauty anyway.
 
In light of the above posts, how's this for unpopular, then?

There has yet to be a "really great" Pokémon game.

I mean, I really like the Pokémon games, but they've all had some pretty glaring deficiencies that's hard to overlook, and somewhat easy to address.

Gen I was the prototype, and listing its deficiencies would take too long and not be practical. One word, for brevity's sake: Postgame.

In Gen II, the famous level curve is all that needs to be mentioned. Again, trying to keep things brief. Also, Johto is a remarkably bland region.

RSE were very pretty games, but the Pokémon selection in those games had issues. Also, whoever coded those sea routes and thought Tentacool, Wingull and Pelipper were enough Pokémon to fill out the wild battles needs to be smacked. RSE also had it pretty bad in terms of post-game Pokémon levelling. Emerald arguably had the best post-game facility ever, though, and Secret Bases were pretty fun too.

FRLG suffered from many of the same problems as RBY, although the postgame was greatly improved, and the VS Seeker alone added heaps of content. Still, obtaining all Pokémon was a bit of a chore, especially considering the tedious sidequest you had to go through to unlock the rather basic feature of trading with the RSE games, effectively preventing you from using nearly two thirds of the Pokémon available at the time for a playthrough.

DPPt presented us with an amazingly bland region, a rather limited Pokémon selection (a whooping two families of Fire-type Pokémon aside from Chimchar) and a tediously slow battle engine. The games deserve credit for introducing the physical/special split, and making a bunch of Kanto and Johto Pokémon a lot more interesting and relevant, but they had their massive faults too. And HM usage this gen was frankly ridiculous. It was impossible to go anywhere without bringing multiple HM slaves. And the return of the Secret Base system was so half-assed they might as well not have bothered with it.

HGSS, like their predecessor games FRLG, retained many of the problems of the original games. The level curve in Johto is barely better than it used to be, and the battle engine is only marginally faster than DP's. Still, I feel HGSS is one of the better Pokémon games out there, for its time. It made many of the right choices, and few outright bad ones.

BW decided to "start anew" with only new Pokémon to play with - and then made half of them conceptually identical to old Pokémon anyway. Trainer rebattles got axed, the game is extremely linear, and all roadblocks are variants of "do this specific task to gain access to the next area". Also, the elemental monkeys. The lack of a Battle Frontier was also disappointing. Still, it deserves great kudos for some design choices such as multi-use TMs, respawning Legendaries, dynamic background music, the addition of Hidden Abilities and engaging multiplayer minigames. The gradual deterioration of White Forest and Black City was a bad idea, though. One thing is needing to play with people to bring the population up, but lowering it back down automatically as time goes by? Meh.

BW2 are another highlight, and in my opinion the best Pokémon games yet. All the good things of BW1, but with most of the bad things removed. It did not bring back the acclaimed Battle Frontier of previous generations, but between Join Avenue, the PWT, Hidden Hollows and Black Tower/White Treehollow, it's almost excusable that they simply copied BW1's Battle Subway. BW2 were interesting to play through, and interesting to continue to play long after you beat them.

XY did some things really well (the Kalos region looks amazing, the music is great and the Pokémon roster unparallelled), and some things... not so much. The story is generic and bland, there is no long-term postgame outside the Battle Maison, Elite Four rematches were removed for no reason, as were Gym Leader rematches, dynamic background music is no more, and the postgame areas are restricted to one city. At least the Restaurants and Battle Chateau made Pokémon training really convenient. And of course, we only ever saw one iteration of Kalos, despite amazing potential for a sequel.

ORAS decided to roll with many of the problems of Ruby and Sapphire, without implementing the fixes from Emerald. The post-game battle facility was copied over wholesale from XY - down to the last detail, name and everything. The DexNav was the most amazing and convenient implementation of the Pokédex ever, though, and the QR code system for sharing Secret Bases a genius move. But ORAS lacked overall staying power, with a weak long-term postgame, and Hoenn's most-anticipated and best-loved feature absent in the most trolly fashion ever. And although most legendary Pokémon from previous generations are available, they seem to be thrown in without consideration for whether it makes sense or not.

SM are, in my opinion, the best-looking Pokémon games to date, but also a conga line of terrible design choices. There is no postgame to speak of. Wild Pokémon encounter tables are insulting, you meet the same handful of Pokémon everywhere, while roughly half of all new Pokémon are unnecessarily hard to find. Triple Battles are removed, and the few Double Battles there are, are amazingly laggy. The most exciting feature of the previous generation is blatantly sidelined in order to promote The Next Big Thing. Training Pokémon is the slowest it has been since RSE, with no good training spots and no repeatable Trainer battles save for the Elite Four. Multiplayer is turned into a chore with Festival Plaza. And DexNav, the most amazing feature ever invented in a Pokémon game? Totally scrapped. Instead, your Pokédex is cracking jokes.


Every game seems to have some flaw that deteriorates the game experience, a sort of "what were they thinking" moment of bad decisions. It's almost as if I'm suspecting that Game Freak intentionally put flaws into their games, so the next game will look better by comparison when it comes out. They never set the bar so high that it becomes difficult to jump over the next time.
 
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