np: USUM UU Stage 7.1 - Controversy (Breloom banned from UU)

[rs]

Going to keep this short

I'll be voting ban mostly based on Breloom's unhealthiness and negative effect on the meta and teambuilding. 100% accurate sleep, especially on an offensive mon like Breloom is obviously a big factor in why I think it contributes more negatively than positively to the meta. @ the low win % in UUPL argument - like other players, I found Loom extremely constraining on teambuilding and in a way over-prepped for it. Always packing a dedicated sleep absorber + another dedicated check to deal with it to eat LO Bullet Seeds, boosted Mach Punches, etc is insanely unhealthy on the meta imo, esp when youre trying to account for other things like aero/lati/sciz. Anyways, I think voters, including myself, definitely made a mistake in the dual suspect process taken awhile back and have a chance to right it here.

more negative than positive effect on the tier = ban

 

[SilvioGuacamole]

Yeah I’m not gonna write a text wall either, as much as I’d like to.

I got reqs a couple of days ago, using a mixture of stall and a Kyurem BO you might’ve seen around. It was horrific.

My opinion on Loom has been pretty much the same since the first time we suspected it: this thing constrains teambuilding too much and doesn’t add enough to the tier to warrant us keeping it in UU. More sets are being experimented with and discovered all the time, most recently the band set which furthers the mind games Breloom creates at team preview and during the game, creating a situation similar to that of Azumarill, balancing being hit with a banded attack and giving Breloom a free SD on the switch. The 50/50s (or 33/33/33s or whatever) are heavily tilted in the Breloom user’s favour, meaning you have to rely on intuitive guesswork or simple pot luck to avoid Loom claiming one whenever it comes in. We’ve already heard about the way Breloom can bust past any of it’s ‘answers’ with decent sleep/bullet seed rolls and that’s what makes it truly uncompetitive for me. If I prep for Loom well and make my best plays I can still end up losing to this, simply because of the broken nature of technician bullet seed, the epitome of a low risk high reward move. My skill in both building and playing is not being rewarded if I prep, play well and lose. Breloom encourages these kind of situations and that’s what makes it broken, the way it can completely eliminate all skill, turning matches into BS and Spore coin tosses. Anyway, sorry if this was a little incoherent, it’s being written on my way into college but I’ll be voting BAN and I’d encourage anyone on the fence to do so too.

edit: minor grammar changes

 

[vivalospride]

Also gonna keep this short cause I'm way too lazy not to...

Before this suspect I was generally pretty indifferent of the outcome of this shit tbqh, I really didn't care if this shroom stayed or not. I thought, well, Serp has been in UU for a while and Loom and Serp's checks kinda overlap each other for the most part so building in UU hasn't changed too much with the more recent addition of Loom (compared to Serp). But that mon is so threatening it kinda forces you to run a mon that is capable of absorbing Spore. People be running Sleep Talk Chandelure and thinking it's the ultimate Loom answer, then getting OHKOd by Rock Tomb on the switch. The majority of things in the tier that are labeled as Loom "answers" cannot switch into Spore and/or cannot switch into Rock Tomb... which is a problem to me. Building in the tier is already so irritating with Lati forcing a Steel on every team, Hydreigon forcing a fairy on every team, Mmane forcing a ground on every team, etc. Do I really need to put Safety Goggles on my fuckin flying mons now just to get hit by a bunch of rocks instead of Spore on the switch in? It's pretty fuckin irritating. I used stall the whole way through the suspect and I'm ngl the stall had a mediocre matchup to Breloom considering the Spore absorber was a Blissey, I was forced to change my max hp max def Scizor from Leftovers -> Safety Goggles just to make the matchup manageable. The fact that the majority of the time you don't really know if the Loom is running Rock Tomb or not, forces you to make careless plays based on assumptions and prayer (ex: harding Chandelure w/ Sleep Talk into Breloom). Spore is honestly just such a fuckin irritating and annoying move to deal with it makes my flying types, fire types, etc. unable to safelty switch into a fuckin Grass/Fighting mon is like the stupidest shit ever, Amoonguss was a VERY viable Spore user in the tier, and it never forces us to run fuckin Safety Goggles on our fuckin Togekiss and shit. The issue with Loom is the different sets, the most standard lo sd set with stabs and spore can be hard walled by a lot of shit like Crobat, Togekiss, Celebi, Chandelure, Moltres, Mega Altaria, etc etc... EVERY one of those mons other than Celebi is incapable of 1v1ing Breloom after a Rock Tomb to the face, which is fuckin annoying a shit... so you can prepare for Loom, but are you also preparing for Rock Tomb variants of Loom. Now that annoying ass Band set is coming into play, where every fuckin turn that thing is in is just "Well I really fuckin hope he doesn't click _____ and clicks _____ instead." It's like how Azu was sort of but not quite as much damage... I just swear to fuckin god this mon was so annoying to me during this suspect I couldn't handle this shit. Idek if this post makes any fuckin sense and I'm way too lazy to read over it and make sure it does, but i'll be voting BAN on Breloom, get it out of this tier pls, shit's annoying to deal with.

S/O Kitten Milk for 6-0ing me with one of the most ridiculous Loom sets ever. (Don't ask what it was cause I don't even remember).

 

[KM]

S/O Kitten Milk for 6-0ing me with one of the most ridiculous Loom sets ever. (Don't ask what it was cause I don't even remember).

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Stone Edge

:^)

[a good set, actually!]

 

[Hogg]

Well don't just stand there comparing Breloom sets, go vote!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-stage-7-1-voting.3637209/

 

[IronKingZero]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-765550665 I’m still new to the competitive scene, and I know how this looks...but Breloom really has few chances to get in and do something broken. This kinda showcases that

 

[Nightingales]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-765550665 I’m still new to the competitive scene, and I know how this looks...but Breloom really has few chances to get in and do something broken. This kinda showcases that

This is a low ladder replay of questionable validity here. If you’d linked something like UU Open or UUPL or some other top-level replay, you might have some ground, but this doesn’t tell us much except that the dude let Snorlax set up.

And even still, Breloom with a little bit of luck broke a snorlax at +6, and even had it woken up the next turn, he would’ve outspend and had more damage on it, with odds being lax would need to rest. The guy had chances to bring it in freely earlier, but instead chose to try and 1v1 snorlax with a Nihilego, which ended badly.

Nothing about this replay gives me the impression that either side is exactly the baseline of which we should base breloom’s arguments.

Edited: got mixed up a little.

 

[Breadpool]

I cheesed SilvioGuacamole yesterday with Breloom, forgot to save the replay, but high points were ohkoing lati with 5 hit band bullet seed, and superpower ohkoing a +1 lax that otherwise wrecked my team. Would have won with Mach punch too, but didn’t need to as I got some other lucky rolls.

Didn’t get reqs, but I wanted to use it for a bit before it got banned. Definitely seems to have problems with speed, but when it does get a chance to click a move, it’s a terrifying mon to deal with. I had fun using it, but didn’t like facing it much. Hope it does get banned.

 

[IronKingZero]

This is a low ladder replay of questionable validity here. If you’d linked something like UU Open or UUPL or some other top-level replay, you might have some ground, but this doesn’t tell us much except that the dude let Snorlax set up.

And even still, Breloom with a little bit of luck broke a snorlax at +6, and even had it woken up the next turn, he would’ve outspend and had more damage on it, with odds being lax would need to rest. The guy had chances to bring it in freely earlier, but instead chose to try and 1v1 snorlax with a Nihilego, which ended badly.

Nothing about this replay gives me the impression that either side is exactly the baseline of which we should base breloom’s arguments.

Edited: got mixed up a little.

Thanks man, like I said I’m still kinda new..but thanks for helping me out, I appreciate it

 

[SilvioGuacamole]

I cheesed SylvioGuacamole yesterday with Breloom, forgot to save the replay, but high points were ohkoing lati with 5 hit band bullet seed, and superpower ohkoing a +1 lax that otherwise wrecked my team. Would have won with Mach punch too, but didn’t need to as I got some other lucky rolls.

Didn’t get reqs, but I wanted to use it for a bit before it got banned. Definitely seems to have problems with speed, but when it does get a chance to click a move, it’s a terrifying mon to deal with. I had fun using it, but didn’t like facing it much. Hope it does get banned.

Damn this Sylvio guy sounds really bad... nah jk, but this perfectly illustrates my point. I don’t have the replay, but my plays were fine and my Breloom counterplay consisted of Sleep Talk Lati and multiple reliable revengers. There was nothing I could’ve done, either in play or (reasonably) in prep. Sounds pretty uncompetitive to me :shrug:


Edit: that was an ass 100th post

 

[Hogg]

The people have spoken, and it's time to say goodbye to our fungal friend. With a decisive 80% majority, Breloom has been banned from UU!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-uu-stage-7-1-voting.3637209/page-2#post-7820557

Thanks to all for participating. Eyan and The Immortal, please close the suspect ladder and ban Breloom from UU.

 

[Nightingales]

Thank god. Terrakion can be a nightmare once again.

Now free raptor.

Thanks man, like I said I’m still kinda new..but thanks for helping me out, I appreciate it

Not a problem dude. Everybody starts somewhere, better to get involved with it not knowing everything then pretending you know everything.

 

[Moutemoute]

I'm not gonna lie, I definitively think that it was a good decision overall. UU will be better without Breloom.
Thanks to everyone who participated in the debate, that was a wealthy suspect.

My last thought will be the following one..

 

[Smallsmallrose]

I made this Avi with good reason
Anyway, I feel like Breloom's ban could have some interesting effects on the meta. While it didn't directly beat anything that made it an asset, a few mons will be affected by its loss.
I hope you don't mind if the discussion continues beyond banning Loom itself, but here are some theories:
Rhyperior-While checked by Breloom, it checked most of Breloom's checks, While its still arguably the best offensive Mane check, and flying resist is still exceptionally good, not EVERY team will likely be running a flying now that the Shroom is gone, giving other grounds a chance to catch up to it.
Alolan-Muk-Deployed to defeat many of Breloom's answers, this mon just lost one of its major partners in the meta. This isn't to say its bad now, but its kind of slithered back into the position it was in before Breloom dominated the meta, where while it wasn't bad, it wasn't necessarily AMAZING either. Other pursuit trappers are SLIGHTLY affected, but tend to have different niches anywho so they can still make ends meet. Muk however was used mostly to check mons like non-Groundium Celebi and Lati, which is never bad, but also has less slightly purpose without Loom's dominance.
Mega Pidgeot-I'll be honest, I wasn't too impressed with this mon in the hell meta since it didn't have a mach OR bullet punch resistance. I feel like this is the meta where the flying typed competition was super stiff, with mons like Togekiss and Moltres snatching all of Pidgeot's niches and tacking them on better defensive typings for Loom meta. WIthout their ability to boast the mach resistance over Pidgeot, its back in the flying type race in full force.
Moltres-Speaking of that Flying type competition, I feel like Moltres is missing its old buddy Loom. While it didn't like rock tombs, it liked being considered as a role compression mon for resisting both mach and bullet punch. Moltres is kinda back in the position it was before Loom meta, where it definitely had a defined niche and did well in squads that played around its hazard weakness, but it definitely won't peak in usage like it did in Loom meta unless something else major happens to directly benefit it.
Chandelure vs Gengar-I think the ghost type competition will pick up some pace after Breloom's ban, especially since their different roles will become more defined since they aren't there to just BOTH be mach punch immunities. They kinda fell into the same roles during Loom meta, now I'm waiting to see how they branch out from eachother.
Heracross-WIthout stiff competition from poison heal Loom, and less of an urgency for Stalls to run Acro Gliscor and Moltres, this just got a LITTLE bit better. While it could also be considered debatably worse since it itself was a Breloom check in some scenarios, I'd argue Heracross got more wins and losses from this shift.
I'm sure there's a few others, but most other kingpieces of the Breloom meta like Togekiss, Mega Altaria, and Doublade have other purposes, and will likely defend their spots in the meta beyond beating Breloom.
I'm curious to see what you guys think of Breloom being gone. How do you think the meta will change in it's absence?

 

[I hate ninjask]

bad bad meme

 

[pokemonisfun]

Scizor should get a suspect now

1) It's the best sweeper in the tier and Bullet Punch means you need to have solid answers to it, not just playing around it. This really warps teambuilding in the tier, most notably by the use of Magneton which is otherwise almost completely outclassed
2) It can cheese through some of its answers like Quick Attack plus hazards kills Infernape and badly hurts Manectric, boosted Z Superpower annhilates Aggron, and Fury Cutter stomps on Quagsire

Scizor suspects have been requested many times before. Council has always declined, for justifiable reasons. I expect they will decline again, probably citing UU Open as a primary excuse (but we always have tournaments....like UUPL literally ended a week ago, this is a lazy reason in my opinion). I don't expect this to get traction but I might as well try. Please suspect Scizor!

 

[Yung Dramps]

Scizor should get a suspect now

1) It's the best sweeper in the tier and Bullet Punch means you need to have solid answers to it, not just playing around it. This really warps teambuilding in the tier, most notably by the use of Magneton which is otherwise almost completely outclassed
2) It can cheese through some of its answers like Quick Attack plus hazards kills Infernape and badly hurts Manectric, boosted Z Superpower annhilates Aggron, and Fury Cutter stomps on Quagsire

Scizor suspects have been requested many times before. Council has always declined, for justifiable reasons. I expect they will decline again, probably citing UU Open as a primary excuse (but we always have tournaments....like UUPL literally ended a week ago, this is a lazy reason in my opinion). I don't expect this to get traction but I might as well try. Please suspect Scizor!

Don't get me wrong, I think Scizor has been long, LONG overdue for a suspect, but citing silly meme sets like Quick Attack and Fury Cutter is, much like the sets themselves, silly.

But yeah, Scizor honestly needs to go. Let's face it, Magneton is shit, and the only reason it has stuck around in UU for pretty much the entire generation is because of Scizor. It has too many sets, too good a typing, too much power and versatility. This should've been taken care of a year ago, but the council was too busy fending off the garbage power creep drops and unbanning shit that nobody asked to be unbanned only to waste more time suspecting them later.

Oh well, better late than never, right?

 

[pokemonisfun]

Don't get me wrong, I think Scizor has been long, LONG overdue for a suspect, but citing silly meme sets like Quick Attack and Fury Cutter is, much like the sets themselves, silly.

But yeah, Scizor honestly needs to go. Let's face it, Magneton is shit, and the only reason it has stuck around in UU for pretty much the entire generation is because of Scizor. It has too many sets, too good a typing, too much power and versatility. This should've been taken care of a year ago, but the council was too busy fending off the garbage power creep drops and unbanning shit that nobody asked to be unbanned only to waste more time suspecting them later.

Oh well, better late than never, right?

Neither of them are memes and I've lost and won with them before because of those specific moves for the reasons I touched on.

The reasons, to reiterate and reify:

Quick Attack, which should be used in conjunction with Bullet Punch, gets crucial damage on Starmie, Infernape, Sharpedo, Manectric, Darmanitan, Entei, Tentacruel and basically everything else that resists Bullet Punch and outspeeds.

Fury Cutter completely destroys the Alo/Quag/Blissey core and is usable because even SD Scizor has a flexible movepool, only needing SD and Fury Cutter.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Neither of them are memes and I've lost and won with them before because of those specific moves for the reasons I touched on.

The reasons, to reiterate and reify:

Quick Attack, which should be used in conjunction with Bullet Punch, gets crucial damage on Starmie, Infernape, Sharpedo, Manectric, Darmanitan, Entei, Tentacruel and basically everything else that resists Bullet Punch and outspeeds.

Fury Cutter completely destroys the Alo/Quag/Blissey core and is usable because even SD Scizor has a flexible movepool, only needing SD and Fury Cutter.

Dear goodness, I was not aware of the power of those options, what they did, nor how surprisingly easy they are to fit on a moveset...

Only serves as more reason to suspect this monstrosity.

 

[Mysil]

Neither of them are memes and I've lost and won with them before because of those specific moves for the reasons I touched on.

The reasons, to reiterate and reify:

Quick Attack, which should be used in conjunction with Bullet Punch, gets crucial damage on Starmie, Infernape, Sharpedo, Manectric, Darmanitan, Entei, Tentacruel and basically everything else that resists Bullet Punch and outspeeds.

Fury Cutter completely destroys the Alo/Quag/Blissey core and is usable because even SD Scizor has a flexible movepool, only needing SD and Fury Cutter.

Ive never seen fury cutter sciz. I suppose you use roost sd fury and bp and set up to + 6 and although you will get burned youre still at + 2 and get to sweep with accumulated fury cutters? (Designed to beat stall ofc)

 

[Nightingales]

Ive never seen fury cutter sciz. I suppose you use roost sd fury and bp and set up to + 6 and although you will get burned youre still at + 2 and get to sweep with accumulated fury cutters? (Designed to beat stall ofc)

Is my math screwed or wouldn’t a burn just take you to +4 if you were at +6 previously?

 

[fanyfan]

Is my math screwed or wouldn’t a burn just take you to +4 if you were at +6 previously?

+6 is x4 to ur attack. Burn halves ur attack, so 4/2=2 so it’s x2 as if u were +2

 

[Nightingales]

+6 is x4 to ur attack. Burn halves ur attack, so 4/2=2 so it’s x2 as if u were +2

Oh ok I mixed up

 

[Mysil]

I dont get how scizor breaks through quag tho. It ignores your boosts so youre at -2 (because you will get burned). Fury cutter Maxes out at 160 which is not gonna be enough to 2hko when you are at -2

 

[Nightingales]

I dont get how scizor breaks through quag tho. It ignores your boosts so youre at -2 (because you will get burned). Fury cutter Maxes out at 160 which is not gonna be enough to 2hko when you are at -2

Solution to avoiding the burns then - wish support and this.
252+ Atk Liechi Berry Scizor Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 384-456 (97.4 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery