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Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)
- Thread starter 5gen
- Start date
It can run extremely situational z-snatch to snatch quiver dances.
It runs a fat Nasty Plot RestTalk set. It's really not great by any means but Beast Boost can be really annoying to deal with at times, so it can be threatening in the right situation. Pair it with Alolem to trap Bronzor and you just might threaten a few things.
If it gets a kill, does beast boost improve the speed of poipole?
It does when you run 252 HP / 252 Spe, which is the standard set.
I'd like to start my post thanking the QC-Team for revamping all analyses.
However I feel like some analysis are strange:
SubSplit should have its own set, even if you have to forgo momentum, it gives Frostom a easier way to break through some fat build.
Life Orb should be in oo it's a strong option if you already have a Z-move on Pain Split set.
Chatter is a bad move, it shouldn't be run on Z-Encore sets. It doesn't touch anything that Heat Wave doesn't touch, even Hidden Power [Water] is better for hitting rock-types.
Choice Specs should have a set out of oo. It's the most threatening wallbreaker in the tier and is able to 2HKO every Pokémon in the tier after SR (even SpD Regice has a small chance to die).
Physically Defensive and Choice Band warrant a set. They are even better than WP lead Golem.
248 HP / 252+ SpD / 8 Spe is a potent spread for oo
Eviolite and Hidden Power [Electric] are good enough to be in oo
Bulky Crustle (the one in oo) should run 84 EVs in SpD to avoid the 2HKO from Specs Chatot
Shadow Ball should be slashed with Focus Blast. In fact Shadow Ball is better than Focus Blast every specially defensive Pokémon bar Lickilicky and the rare Klang.
Will-O-Wisp should be slashed with Wild Charge not with High Horse Power which gives a better coverage than Wild Charge
Soundproof is imo at least as good as Sap Sipper with Chatot arround and to punish Parting Shot Silvally.
Choice Scarf deserves its own set.
No Guard Machoke is bad, it should be in oo. I don't even see any reason to use this over Guts.
Add this set:
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide / Thunder Punch
It was standard in ORAS PU before its ban and is still very powerfull and a good status absorber.
Sheer Force deserves its own set. It's a very powerfull wallbreaker.
Nasty Plot also deserves its own set.
Idk what the goal of running Extransensory? Leaf Storm does better damages to Mareanie and it doesn't even 4HKO CroMuk. I believe Hurricane is far better because it can catch Fighting and Grass-type (i posted calcs on my previous post).
Swords Dance deserves a mention in oo.
ShuckleDeath set deserves its place in oo. Also Adamant should be removed since it gives up every adavantages Kanto-Dug has over Alola-Dug.
Choice Scarf deserves a set, it's like having a 93.5 Atk / 111.5 Spe Choice Band.
Surf Mold Breaker lead, Zen Headbutt, Fire Blast and SD deserve a mention in oo.
The first set should have this spread: 248HP / 8 Def / 252+ SpD since avoiding the Psyshock Golduck is irrelevant.
Can I have a mention of this set in oo, it's the only Seaking's set that beats Mareanie and can also reliably check our electric type.
Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Knock Off
- Megahorn/Facade
- Drill Run/Facade
Where is the offensive Pivot set from ORAS? It's still good and even got a new tool in Strenght Sap.
Darkinium-Z should be the main set. You really don't want to get hard walled by Bronzor when you get break through Golem after chip damages.
This set should be the main set. It seems a bit odd there is another AV set as everybody in this thread agreed that Oranguru needs to raise in the VR because of it.
Also some set have odd HP number which is for a lot of known reason bad. I won't list all of them but this needs to be changed.
However I feel like some analysis are strange:
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide / Thunder Punch
It was standard in ORAS PU before its ban and is still very powerfull and a good status absorber.
Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Knock Off
- Megahorn/Facade
- Drill Run/Facade
Also some set have odd HP number which is for a lot of known reason bad. I won't list all of them but this needs to be changed.
Allow me to go through your list and provide you with an explanation for why you don't see some of your listed moveset nominations as a primary export and piggyback on some of your sets.I'd like to start my post thanking the QC-Team for revamping all analyses.
However I feel like some analysis are strange:
SubSplit should have its own set, even if you have to forgo momentum, it gives Frostom a easier way to break through some fat build.
Life Orb should be in oo it's a strong option if you already have a Z-move on Pain Split set.
Chatter is a bad move, it shouldn't be run on Z-Encore sets. It doesn't touch anything that Heat Wave doesn't touch, even Hidden Power [Water] is better for hitting rock-types.
Choice Specs should have a set out of oo. It's the most threatening wallbreaker in the tier and is able to 2HKO every Pokémon in the tier after SR (even SpD Regice has a small chance to die).
Physically Defensive and Choice Band warrant a set. They are even better than WP lead Golem.
248 HP / 252+ SpD / 8 Spe is a potent spread for oo
Eviolite and Hidden Power [Electric] are good enough to be in oo
Bulky Crustle (the one in oo) should run 84 EVs in SpD to avoid the 2HKO from Specs Chatot
Shadow Ball should be slashed with Focus Blast. In fact Shadow Ball is better than Focus Blast every specially defensive Pokémon bar Lickilicky and the rare Klang.
Will-O-Wisp should be slashed with Wild Charge not with High Horse Power which gives a better coverage than Wild Charge
Soundproof is imo at least as good as Sap Sipper with Chatot arround and to punish Parting Shot Silvally.
Choice Scarf deserves its own set.
No Guard Machoke is bad, it should be in oo. I don't even see any reason to use this over Guts.
Add this set:
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide / Thunder Punch
It was standard in ORAS PU before its ban and is still very powerfull and a good status absorber.
Sheer Force deserves its own set. It's a very powerfull wallbreaker.
Nasty Plot also deserves its own set.
Idk what the goal of running Extransensory? Leaf Storm does better damages to Mareanie and it doesn't even 4HKO CroMuk. I believe Hurricane is far better because it can catch Fighting and Grass-type (i posted calcs on my previous post).
Swords Dance deserves a mention in oo.
ShuckleDeath set deserves its place in oo. Also Adamant should be removed since it gives up every adavantages Kanto-Dug has over Alola-Dug.
Choice Scarf deserves a set, it's like having a 93.5 Atk / 111.5 Spe Choice Band.
Surf Mold Breaker lead, Zen Headbutt, Fire Blast and SD deserve a mention in oo.
The first set should have this spread: 248HP / 8 Def / 252+ SpD since avoiding the Psyshock Golduck is irrelevant.
Can I have a mention of this set in oo, it's the only Seaking's set that beats Mareanie and can also reliably check our electric type.
Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 184 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Knock Off
- Megahorn/Facade
- Drill Run/Facade
Where is the offensive Pivot set from ORAS? It's still good and even got a new tool in Strenght Sap.
Darkinium-Z should be the main set. You really don't want to get hard walled by Bronzor when you get break through Golem after chip damages.
This set should be the main set. It seems a bit odd there is another AV set as everybody in this thread agreed that Oranguru needs to raise in the VR because of it.
Also some set have odd HP number which is for a lot of known reason bad. I won't list all of them but this needs to be changed.
I hope that your issue regarding the HP numbers are resolved soon. We have experienced members working on the sets, and we understand benchmarks along with Ability-based fractions (Regenerator as an example), but we can make mistakes. Thank you for your passionate post regarding your concerns and helpful criticism for ZU. I hope more people express themselves in the future!
Substitute + Pain Split variants have a hard time abusing what makes Rotom-Frost S-rank material in the first place, and that is being the most threatening pivot in the tier. You have a hard time breaking common checks such as Eviolite Bronzor, Muk, Regice, Seaking, and even bulkier variants of Grumpig. Rock Blast Golem also has a field day against this set if Sturdy is preserved. I will however note that Life Orb is a fine addition to OO if it hasn't been already added.
I don't think LO should go in OO to be completely honest. In my opinion it should be on the Z-Blizzard set but slashed so it isn't the first choice. Believe it or not but LO Sub Split is one of Rotom-Frost's better sets. Unfortunately it isn't used as much because everyone is just drooling over Scarf. This is just my take on the Rotom-Frost sample set.
EDIT: Also put Substitute slashed on Volt Switch in order to fulfill sub split.
Only responding to the ones that I have strong feelings on:
The fact that CB Golem is even being considered as a main set is misleading. Golem is primarily a tank, hazard setter, or effective sweeper, all courtesy of Sturdy. Using Golem as a revenge killer/bulky attacker is counter-productive and sounds suboptimal compared to an offensive tank set or something along those lines, considering it also loses out on Rocks.Physically defensive and Choice Band Golem were listed as OO but are not as optimal as the current spreads for this metagame. Physically defensive golem heavily competes with Gabite who has a better defensive typing and ability to abuse physical attackers. Choice Band Golem is prone to chip damage just like WP sets and does not effectively get rid of threats like Silvally-Fighting, who takes a risk during the 1v1 trade and is knocked out by +2 Earthquake. I do respect your confidence in your claims that some things may be better but a lack of proper evidence will lead to questioning and we are always willing to compromise if you are able to back yourself.
Keep in OO. Having used it a lot in the last meta (though equally as flawed in this meta: can't even switch into Obama without being 2hko'd), I can vouch it's too frail. Also takes away its primary niche as a Kecleon check/Rocks setter.Sheer Force AoA Mawile can be up for discussion as an export addition with the QC team, but is generally horrible against anything but defensive teams.
At that point, you're better off going Silvally-Flying, because at least Silvally-Flying is somewhat tanky/speedy enough to do things. I much prefer current AoA Toucannon, which wallbreaks the majority of the tier. Base 60 with no boost is asking to be revenge killed, especially in a meta where Zebstrika is one of the top Electrics.Swords Dance can be added to OO, although Toucannon is always better running AoA sets and abusing its access to U-turn to threaten teams.
I just want to parrot: Sludge Wave should be added, looking at the replay ShuckleDeath posted, it looks like really nice bait. :ok_hand:Sludge Wave can be added to OO along with his spread if we cannot find a more optimized variant. Choice Band / Scarf Dugtrio-Kanto can afford the speed drop for Adamant due to its higher base speed, and thusly will not be dropped.
I laughed because I did the Jumpluff set (initially, thank Diagnostic and Froasty for their help!) and I remember initially suggesting offensive pivot Jumpluff, which was nice several gens ago. I was corrected (rightfully) and to be honest, if you want an offensive Grass pivot, go Silvally-Grass (which actually does things, and has stats enough to be a pivot).Jumpluff is horribly outclassed offensively and should be noted for its support sets and ability to use its new recovery option in Strength Sap along with Z-Crystals. Feel free to prove why your claim should be added in a metagame where Sap Sippers like Bouffalant and Zebstrika roam.
Darkinum-Z should actually be the main set. It breaks the Bronzeanie core, but I think that's been mentioned.Darkinium-Z shall be brought up for later discussion. This is a good investment that probably went overlooked during the final entry process for the sample sets since it was brought up before by our team members.
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Hi, Hello. Spooktune here, with a crisp new VR Nomination.
Seadra: UR -> UU/C-/C/C+
Now, you may be asking. Why Seadra? First, let me explain what Seadra does.
What it do
Seadra is a pure Water type Pokemon with a beneficial offense consisting of a Special Attacking stat of 95, and a Speed of 95. It's Defense is moderate yet has something to be desired for, with a Defense of 95, an HP of 55, and a Special Defense of 45. Paired with Eviolite that makes a solid 143 (Rounded Up) base Defense and a still lacking base Special Defense of 68 (Rounded Up). Seadra's most useful ability is Sniper, which allows critical hits to do 1.5 more damage. This allows Seadra to both Ignore it's own Special Attack stat drops (from moves like Moonblast and Parting Shot), and the raised Special Defense of the foe. This, combined with the 2.25 boost from a Sniper + Critical Hit allows for Seadra to rack up damage.
The Set
Seadra @ Eviolite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Signal Beam
- Disable / Agility / Substitute
This set focuses on Focus Energy and Sniper, which was a gimmick used on Kingdra way back when. while Focus Energy does take a turn to set up, allowing the foe to attack and possibly KO, one thing Seadra has in it's moveset is the helpful move Disable, which in turn allows Seadra to set up against Choice-locked users such as a Monferno, Basculin, or Rotom-Frost locked into Blizzard. It even can force switch-outs if it Disables it's foe's only attacking move, or the only attack that can deal sufficient damage. This allows Seadra to sweep by use of Sniper-boosted Critical Hits, sometimes taking out even Pokemon that resist it's moves. Ice Beam allows Seadra to KO Grass-types like Tangela, Leafeon, Or Silvally-Grass easily, if used in combination with Webs. Signal Beam is another option for Seadra, as it still hits Grass types but can also hit other Water types for sufficient damage. Agility can provide a significant speed boost on teams when it is not used with Webs, and Substitute can be used giving other Pokemon a hard time trying to break through Seadra.
Why Seadra?
Seadra does share competition with overall better Special Attacking Water-Types like Simipour and Silvally-Water, and is mostly outclassed. There are, on the other hand, some things that Seadra can do that the other two cant, such as take Physical attacks with relative ease or Do heavy amounts of damage without having to take too many turns to set up. I also want to put a big emphasis on Critical Hits. Usually you want a crit when you have to get just enough damage to KO, but with a rate of doing so being very minuscule. with Focus Energy, you get that 90% of the time, with additional damage to boot, delivering many OHKOs in the process. While it is outclassed, I think Seadra shouldn't go unnoticed.
Seadra: UR -> UU/C-/C/C+
Now, you may be asking. Why Seadra? First, let me explain what Seadra does.
Seadra is a pure Water type Pokemon with a beneficial offense consisting of a Special Attacking stat of 95, and a Speed of 95. It's Defense is moderate yet has something to be desired for, with a Defense of 95, an HP of 55, and a Special Defense of 45. Paired with Eviolite that makes a solid 143 (Rounded Up) base Defense and a still lacking base Special Defense of 68 (Rounded Up). Seadra's most useful ability is Sniper, which allows critical hits to do 1.5 more damage. This allows Seadra to both Ignore it's own Special Attack stat drops (from moves like Moonblast and Parting Shot), and the raised Special Defense of the foe. This, combined with the 2.25 boost from a Sniper + Critical Hit allows for Seadra to rack up damage.
Seadra @ Eviolite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Signal Beam
- Disable / Agility / Substitute
This set focuses on Focus Energy and Sniper, which was a gimmick used on Kingdra way back when. while Focus Energy does take a turn to set up, allowing the foe to attack and possibly KO, one thing Seadra has in it's moveset is the helpful move Disable, which in turn allows Seadra to set up against Choice-locked users such as a Monferno, Basculin, or Rotom-Frost locked into Blizzard. It even can force switch-outs if it Disables it's foe's only attacking move, or the only attack that can deal sufficient damage. This allows Seadra to sweep by use of Sniper-boosted Critical Hits, sometimes taking out even Pokemon that resist it's moves. Ice Beam allows Seadra to KO Grass-types like Tangela, Leafeon, Or Silvally-Grass easily, if used in combination with Webs. Signal Beam is another option for Seadra, as it still hits Grass types but can also hit other Water types for sufficient damage. Agility can provide a significant speed boost on teams when it is not used with Webs, and Substitute can be used giving other Pokemon a hard time trying to break through Seadra.
Seadra does share competition with overall better Special Attacking Water-Types like Simipour and Silvally-Water, and is mostly outclassed. There are, on the other hand, some things that Seadra can do that the other two cant, such as take Physical attacks with relative ease or Do heavy amounts of damage without having to take too many turns to set up. I also want to put a big emphasis on Critical Hits. Usually you want a crit when you have to get just enough damage to KO, but with a rate of doing so being very minuscule. with Focus Energy, you get that 90% of the time, with additional damage to boot, delivering many OHKOs in the process. While it is outclassed, I think Seadra shouldn't go unnoticed.
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I've experimented with this before and I think its not horrible, however run Substitute or Agility over Disable, its significantly more useful. Seadra isn't a great Pokemon from my experience though, and isn't as good as breaking fat stuff as well as you would think.Hi, Hello. Spooktune here, with a crisp new VR Nomination.
Seadra: UR -> UU/C-/C/C+
Now, you may be asking. Why Seadra? First, let me explain what Seadra does.
What it do
Seadra is a pure Water type Pokemon with a beneficial offense consisting of a Special Attacking stat of 95, and a Speed of 95. It's Defense is moderate yet has something to be desired for, with a Defense of 95, an HP of 55, and a Special Defense of 45. Paired with Eviolite that makes a solid 143 (Rounded Up) base Defense and a still lacking base Special Defense of 68 (Rounded Up). Seadra's most useful ability is Sniper, which allows critical hits to do 1.5 more damage. This allows Seadra to both Ignore it's own Special Attack stat drops (from moves like Moonblast and Parting Shot), and the raised Special Defense of the foe. This, combined with the 2.25 boost from a Sniper + Critical Hit allows for Seadra to rack up damage.
The Set
Seadra @ Eviolite
Ability: Sniper
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Signal Beam
- Disable
This set focuses on Focus Energy and Sniper, which was a gimmick used on Kingdra way back when. while Focus Energy does take a turn to set up, allowing the foe to attack and possibly KO, one thing Seadra has in it's moveset is the helpful move Disable, which in turn allows Seadra to set up against Choice-locked users such as a Monferno, Basculin, or Rotom-Frost locked into Blizzard. It even can force switch-outs if it Disables it's foe's only attacking move, or the only attack that can deal sufficient damage. This allows Seadra to sweep by use of Sniper-boosted Critical Hits, sometimes taking out even Pokemon that resist it's moves. Ice Beam allows Seadra to KO Grass-types like Tangela, Leafeon, Or Silvally-Grass easily, if used in combination with Webs. Signal Beam is another option for Seadra, as it still hits Grass types but can also hit other Water types for sufficient damage.
Why Seadra?
Seadra does share competition with overall better Special Attacking Water-Types like Simipour and Silvally-Water, and is mostly outclassed. There are, on the other hand, some things that Seadra can do that the other two cant, such as take Physical attacks with relative ease or Do heavy amounts of damage without having to take too many turns to set up. I also want to put a big emphasis on Critical Hits. Usually you want a crit when you have to get just enough damage to KO, but with a rate of doing so being very minuscule. with Focus Energy, you get that 90% of the time, with additional damage to boot, delivering many OHKOs in the process. While it is outclassed, I think Seadra shouldn't go unnoticed.
I do think Sub/Agility is useful yes but in my specific case i use it on a Webs team. i will edit my post to contain Agility and Substitute. Thanks!
I want to follow up on the Oranguru post. It seems like some of you are not completely convinced on it so I will go into more detail, I also didn't compare it to Kecleon in the last post and I see alot of people doing so.
In my original nom post, I didn't include Kecleon because when comparing the three of them as Assault Vest users it is vastly different then both Oranguru and Bouffalant in terms of role compression and stats. What I mean by this is I feel Kecleon plays differently, yes it uses Assault Vest to check special attackers, but It also at the same time uses dual priority to threaten offensive Pokemon or uses Power-Up Punch in an attempt to break or sweep where as Oranguru and Bouffalant use a combination of offensive and defensive capability, Ability(s), and movepool to try and check as many Pokemon as possible. You can say all Pokemon do that but in the case of Oranguru, Bouffalant and Kecleon I just felt if you were team building and you were deciding between Kecleon or Oranguru it would be about the same as choosing between Kecleon and Bouffalant, which is why I was comparing Oranguru and Boufflant, it would be the next choice if you chose to use a different Kecleon set or just want more bulk.
So when comparing all 3 vs Chatot because of this line.
This line isn't actually factual, depending on the sets and spreads involved. If this is implying you are running Soundproof Bouffalant, then yes, Bouffalant would obviously be the best check out of the three of them. However, you have to keep in mind Bouffalant prefers to run Sap Sipper most of the time, to quote because I couldn't say it better myself.
Assuming all three potential Assault Vest users can get him by Chatots timid Choice Scarf Boomburst, we can use this to compare all threes damage special bulk and damage output.
As you can see by the calcs assuming both the opposing Chatot and ether of the three Assault Vest users did not receive any prior damage and has only been afflicted by Stealth Rock, all three can switch in and beat Choice Scarf Chatot 1v1. that clears up that statment which has been bothering me, granted if we are talking about Nasty Plot Chatot Soundproof Bouffalant will have the best odds. You can also note that Bouffalant has the highest neutral damage out of the three in this instance.
A big difference that Oranguru has over both Bouffalant and Kecleon is the fact that it is a special attacker. When comparing neutral damage between Kecleon and Bouffalant, Bouffalant will always have the larger damage output do to higher power STAB and higher base attack stat. Oranguru can out damage both depending on the defense and special defense of the opposing Pokemon. For example against physically defensive Tangela Oranguru will always do more damage to it then Bouffalant can, even with Megahorn.
An interesting thing to note here is the defenisve calcs. Kecleon is the frailer of the three and also the slowest 84 speed investment hits 137 in the actual speed stat, this is the bench mark for non investsted base 50's. It is compensated by priority to an extent but this is another one of the reasons I didn't include Kecleon in the first post, it is very different. If you look at both Oranguru and Bouffalant they have basically the same special bulk with Oranguru actually being able to take less damage, and this is with heavy speed investment. A thing you can consider is running less speed if you want extra bulk it far exceeds Bouffalant then (252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Oranguru: 109-130 (28.4 - 33.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock ).
Another thing to consider is physical bulk. Bouffalant is the clear winner here, but Oranguru has decent physical bulk in its own right, I can show this using Golem as a template which is what the speed on Oranguru is for in the first place.
As you can see Oranguru has respectable physical bulk, where as kecleon really doesn't. This is another example of how Oranguru being a special attacker can have the greatest damage output being the only one of the three who can score a clean OHKO by a pretty large margin. I hope that this show why I wasn't comparing it to Kecleon they are very different Pokemon with different offensive capabilities.
I'm not trying to say Oranguru is better then Bouffalant, if anything this post should show that there are different reasons to use both as Bouffalant is a little easier to play with and is still quite effective, having a good spammable STAB and beating Bug and Dark-types Oranguru can not handle so well. Oranguru handles Pokemon like Combusken, and can even soft check Monferno, so basically it is Oranguru neutrality to Fighting-type attacks that push it into the realms of viability. I also feel like Bouffalant is easier for current teams to wall but honestly I have been working on this so long and I feel I have said enough to get my point across with out going into another rant. Assault Vest Oranguru shouldn't be looked at as a meme it, I feel, deserves consideration when the right team building circumstances call for it.
In my original nom post, I didn't include Kecleon because when comparing the three of them as Assault Vest users it is vastly different then both Oranguru and Bouffalant in terms of role compression and stats. What I mean by this is I feel Kecleon plays differently, yes it uses Assault Vest to check special attackers, but It also at the same time uses dual priority to threaten offensive Pokemon or uses Power-Up Punch in an attempt to break or sweep where as Oranguru and Bouffalant use a combination of offensive and defensive capability, Ability(s), and movepool to try and check as many Pokemon as possible. You can say all Pokemon do that but in the case of Oranguru, Bouffalant and Kecleon I just felt if you were team building and you were deciding between Kecleon or Oranguru it would be about the same as choosing between Kecleon and Bouffalant, which is why I was comparing Oranguru and Boufflant, it would be the next choice if you chose to use a different Kecleon set or just want more bulk.
So when comparing all 3 vs Chatot because of this line.
Oranguru Usually Useless -> C- Quite Agree
Well there is no much reason to use it over Kecleon/Bouffalant but i played it and i recognize it has a small niche in being a bulky AV able to weaken several mons than Bouffa or Kec cannot such as the cores Mareanie/Bronzor, Tangela/Muk, etc. However, it cannot stop things such as boomburst chatot (Bouffa can and it's nice)
This line isn't actually factual, depending on the sets and spreads involved. If this is implying you are running Soundproof Bouffalant, then yes, Bouffalant would obviously be the best check out of the three of them. However, you have to keep in mind Bouffalant prefers to run Sap Sipper most of the time, to quote because I couldn't say it better myself.
Sap Sipper far surpasses Soundproof in both the immunity department and for for wallbreaking purposes. Being able to stop Grass-type moves is a blessing and provides it with a more threatening presence since it can limit threats including Leafeon, Abomasnow, Lurantis, Tangela, and even abuse powder abusers like Smeargle, Jumpluff and Butterfree. I would always take that trade unless my team was heavily Chatot weak and I should note that Silvally-variants prefer to run U-turn in the metagame to avoid playing around Clear Body, Soundproof, and Defiant / Contrary / Competitive users, while being able to chip against foes.
Assuming all three potential Assault Vest users can get him by Chatots timid Choice Scarf Boomburst, we can use this to compare all threes damage special bulk and damage output.
As you can see by the calcs assuming both the opposing Chatot and ether of the three Assault Vest users did not receive any prior damage and has only been afflicted by Stealth Rock, all three can switch in and beat Choice Scarf Chatot 1v1. that clears up that statment which has been bothering me, granted if we are talking about Nasty Plot Chatot Soundproof Bouffalant will have the best odds. You can also note that Bouffalant has the highest neutral damage out of the three in this instance.
A big difference that Oranguru has over both Bouffalant and Kecleon is the fact that it is a special attacker. When comparing neutral damage between Kecleon and Bouffalant, Bouffalant will always have the larger damage output do to higher power STAB and higher base attack stat. Oranguru can out damage both depending on the defense and special defense of the opposing Pokemon. For example against physically defensive Tangela Oranguru will always do more damage to it then Bouffalant can, even with Megahorn.
An interesting thing to note here is the defenisve calcs. Kecleon is the frailer of the three and also the slowest 84 speed investment hits 137 in the actual speed stat, this is the bench mark for non investsted base 50's. It is compensated by priority to an extent but this is another one of the reasons I didn't include Kecleon in the first post, it is very different. If you look at both Oranguru and Bouffalant they have basically the same special bulk with Oranguru actually being able to take less damage, and this is with heavy speed investment. A thing you can consider is running less speed if you want extra bulk it far exceeds Bouffalant then (252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Oranguru: 109-130 (28.4 - 33.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock ).
Another thing to consider is physical bulk. Bouffalant is the clear winner here, but Oranguru has decent physical bulk in its own right, I can show this using Golem as a template which is what the speed on Oranguru is for in the first place.
As you can see Oranguru has respectable physical bulk, where as kecleon really doesn't. This is another example of how Oranguru being a special attacker can have the greatest damage output being the only one of the three who can score a clean OHKO by a pretty large margin. I hope that this show why I wasn't comparing it to Kecleon they are very different Pokemon with different offensive capabilities.
I'm not trying to say Oranguru is better then Bouffalant, if anything this post should show that there are different reasons to use both as Bouffalant is a little easier to play with and is still quite effective, having a good spammable STAB and beating Bug and Dark-types Oranguru can not handle so well. Oranguru handles Pokemon like Combusken, and can even soft check Monferno, so basically it is Oranguru neutrality to Fighting-type attacks that push it into the realms of viability. I also feel like Bouffalant is easier for current teams to wall but honestly I have been working on this so long and I feel I have said enough to get my point across with out going into another rant. Assault Vest Oranguru shouldn't be looked at as a meme it, I feel, deserves consideration when the right team building circumstances call for it.
I didnt want to be implicated in this debate Sap Slipper vs Soundproof bouffalant but I guess it's a bit my fault if it's happening.
On the subject, I ask to dont deconsidered Soundproof bouffalant too quickly, especially on the AV set. You indeed cannot deal with a lot of threating grass type we have in running which can be problematic for plenty of teams. But accept first grass types are more rare than it was in the past. Leafeon, Shiftry and Vally-Grass dropped on the VR for this reason and even if I'm the first to say they stay very threaten and dont have to be forgotten when you're building a team, you face them less often. On the contrary, Chatot is becoming more present now, even if I still think it's overhyped and overanked for plenty reasons, it's something you see often in battles. Have a special tank able to perfectly counter one of the most dangerous special wallbreaker is definitely something you will enjoy. Also, Bouffa cares about Sap Sipper against grass types only against half of them, switching Bouffa against Lurantis is basically a 50/50 globally in the Lurantis'favor, Abomasnow scarf cannot do anything against, SD Shiftry deals with Bouffa after SD, etc. It matters against sleep powder user, Leafeon, Tangela, and SD Abomasnow set but that's not all the grasd tyeps
I dont deny all the qualities Sap Sipper has, it's frequentally more useful than Soundproof, but when you are comparing Oranguru and Bouffalant in special tank it's something i couldn't not mention considering how chatot is common (even if it's more used than viable). In the same way, you will rarely play Kec and Oranguru in the same team (or with really different sets such as color change Sr) and i couldn't forget Kec in ranking Oranguru. If Kec is the frailer of three, as you said, its priorities balances that Indeed but with the typing, Kec can for example stopped a Chatot specs Boomburst, a Head Charge Bouffalant CB, a Focus blast of Combusken due to the ghost typing. Again, that's something i have to mention even if it was really short in my precedent post and not really explained in an explicite way.
Also the golem calc was against an offensive one, which commonly exists, but a large part of Golem is played SpD nowadays which makes the calc too theorical to do an analysis.
Otherwise, I'm agree with what you said, I bring only clarifications about what I was thinking when I wrote the post.
On the subject, I ask to dont deconsidered Soundproof bouffalant too quickly, especially on the AV set. You indeed cannot deal with a lot of threating grass type we have in running which can be problematic for plenty of teams. But accept first grass types are more rare than it was in the past. Leafeon, Shiftry and Vally-Grass dropped on the VR for this reason and even if I'm the first to say they stay very threaten and dont have to be forgotten when you're building a team, you face them less often. On the contrary, Chatot is becoming more present now, even if I still think it's overhyped and overanked for plenty reasons, it's something you see often in battles. Have a special tank able to perfectly counter one of the most dangerous special wallbreaker is definitely something you will enjoy. Also, Bouffa cares about Sap Sipper against grass types only against half of them, switching Bouffa against Lurantis is basically a 50/50 globally in the Lurantis'favor, Abomasnow scarf cannot do anything against, SD Shiftry deals with Bouffa after SD, etc. It matters against sleep powder user, Leafeon, Tangela, and SD Abomasnow set but that's not all the grasd tyeps
I dont deny all the qualities Sap Sipper has, it's frequentally more useful than Soundproof, but when you are comparing Oranguru and Bouffalant in special tank it's something i couldn't not mention considering how chatot is common (even if it's more used than viable). In the same way, you will rarely play Kec and Oranguru in the same team (or with really different sets such as color change Sr) and i couldn't forget Kec in ranking Oranguru. If Kec is the frailer of three, as you said, its priorities balances that Indeed but with the typing, Kec can for example stopped a Chatot specs Boomburst, a Head Charge Bouffalant CB, a Focus blast of Combusken due to the ghost typing. Again, that's something i have to mention even if it was really short in my precedent post and not really explained in an explicite way.
Also the golem calc was against an offensive one, which commonly exists, but a large part of Golem is played SpD nowadays which makes the calc too theorical to do an analysis.
Otherwise, I'm agree with what you said, I bring only clarifications about what I was thinking when I wrote the post.
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Lickilicky B+ --> C+/B-
With Pyukumuku gone, stall is practically dead and isn't very good at the moment, and this thing has absolutely no use outside of stall because of how passive it is, which is why I believe it no longer deserves B+.
Shuckle B- to B+
Smeargle B+ to B-
Shuckle is the best webs setter atm, being able to almost guarantee webs and rocks being up cause of its sheer bulk + mental herb, as well as encore to bait golems and such. Smeargle struggles to get up both webs and rocks in the first place, whereas Shuckle can get up both reliably and can possibly do that more than once if need be.
With Pyukumuku gone, stall is practically dead and isn't very good at the moment, and this thing has absolutely no use outside of stall because of how passive it is, which is why I believe it no longer deserves B+.
Shuckle B- to B+
Smeargle B+ to B-
Shuckle is the best webs setter atm, being able to almost guarantee webs and rocks being up cause of its sheer bulk + mental herb, as well as encore to bait golems and such. Smeargle struggles to get up both webs and rocks in the first place, whereas Shuckle can get up both reliably and can possibly do that more than once if need be.
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I'm here to nominate Pikachu from Unranked to C, as Pikachu has the ability to threaten out some of the most powerful mons in the tier due to it hitting extremely hard with a combination of Volt Tackle, E-Speed, and Knock Off, as well as beating debatably the best defensive core in the game.
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Extreme Speed
- Grass Knot
- Knock Off/Volt Switch
As the calcs above show, Pikachu threatens most of the metagame with the very powerful combination of Volt Tackle and Extreme Speed, with Grass Knot and Knock Off filling in for the few mons that can take the hits from that combo, with Tangela being the only mon that can be classified as a true counter.
Replays:
Pika OKOs a decent threat to my team in Seadra and E-Speed kills a x2.5 speed Combuseken that could sweep my team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-790346853
Pika does >50% to Carbink, revenge kills Rotom-Frost, and almost KOs a Metang after rocks: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-792699941
Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 28 SpD / 228 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Volt Tackle
- Extreme Speed
- Grass Knot
- Knock Off/Volt Switch
Light Ball is the entire reason this set works, as without it Pikachu is simply a worse Zebstrika. Lightning Rod is illegal with Extreme Speed, so unfortunately Static is the only option for an ability. Volt Tackle provides maximum damage output, as Pikachu isn't taking hits anyways, so the recoil isn't that important. Extreme Speed allows for Pikachu to claim KOs on faster mons such as Kadabra or Rapidash. Grass Knot OKOs all Golem sets allowing Volt Tackle and Extreme speed to be extremely spammable. Knock Off is a very good way to hit Bronzor, allowing it to break arguably the best defensive core in the meta right now, with the great benefit of hitting Grumpig. Volt switch is an option to get momentum on the walls you scare out.
Hasty allows for Pika to reach 300 speed while still allowing for OKOs on max bulk Golem, and reducing Pikas already terrible defense (base 40). 228 speed evs and a plus speed nature means that Pika outspeeds things speed creeping Rotom-Frost. 252 attack evs are to maximize general damage. The 28 Sp Def evs are to take weak special hits from mons like Marienie and Bronzor better, although the evs aren't by any means making Pikachu bulky.
Hasty allows for Pika to reach 300 speed while still allowing for OKOs on max bulk Golem, and reducing Pikas already terrible defense (base 40). 228 speed evs and a plus speed nature means that Pika outspeeds things speed creeping Rotom-Frost. 252 attack evs are to maximize general damage. The 28 Sp Def evs are to take weak special hits from mons like Marienie and Bronzor better, although the evs aren't by any means making Pikachu bulky.
Extreme Speed is calced for mons faster then Pikachu, while coverage is used for slower mons
Walls and tanks
0 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Golem: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 294-348 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 314-370 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 289-342 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Water: 476-564 (124.9 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 148-175 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Offensive mons
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chatot: 190-224 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 384-453 (142.7 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 171-202 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 306-361 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 228-268 (84.1 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 161-190 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 154-182 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 145-171 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 136-161 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Beheeyem: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 238-282 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 186-220 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 130-153 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Oricorio: 612-722 (173.3 - 204.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Bulkier Oricorio Baile)
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio: 136-161 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO (Standard Oricorio Baile)
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 148-175 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Non OKOs or 2KOs
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 108-127 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 96-114 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Silvally-Fighting: 106-125 (32 - 37.7%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Dragon: 107-126 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 64-76 (19.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
Walls and tanks
0 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Golem: 384-456 (105.4 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 294-348 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Grumpig: 314-370 (86.2 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 289-342 (69.8 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Water: 476-564 (124.9 - 148%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 148-175 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Offensive mons
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chatot: 190-224 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 384-453 (142.7 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Monferno: 171-202 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kecleon: 306-361 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 228-268 (84.1 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 161-190 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 154-182 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 145-171 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rapidash: 136-161 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Beheeyem: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 238-282 (60.5 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 186-220 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 141-167 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 130-153 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Oricorio: 612-722 (173.3 - 204.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Bulkier Oricorio Baile)
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio: 136-161 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO (Standard Oricorio Baile)
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simipour: 148-175 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Non OKOs or 2KOs
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 108-127 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Frost: 96-114 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Silvally-Fighting: 106-125 (32 - 37.7%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Dragon: 107-126 (32.3 - 38%) -- 96.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Light Ball Pikachu Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 52+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 64-76 (19.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
As the calcs above show, Pikachu threatens most of the metagame with the very powerful combination of Volt Tackle and Extreme Speed, with Grass Knot and Knock Off filling in for the few mons that can take the hits from that combo, with Tangela being the only mon that can be classified as a true counter.
Replays:
Pika OKOs a decent threat to my team in Seadra and E-Speed kills a x2.5 speed Combuseken that could sweep my team: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-790346853
Pika does >50% to Carbink, revenge kills Rotom-Frost, and almost KOs a Metang after rocks: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-792699941
Okay, not trying to make you feel bad or anything, but the EVs are all wrong. Unless you want to speed tie with NP Mr. Meme (which I have seen a lot less than Scarf Meme, but anyway), 224+ Speed EVs are optimal. 224+ Speed EVs give you that clean 299 Speed, which is 1 point above 252+ Rotoms (the closest threat in Speed which you can actually deal with, at least after rocks).
Also:
0 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pikachu: 78-93 (36.9 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mareanie Scald vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Pikachu: 73-87 (34.5 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I don't think it makes a huge difference investing in SpD. 35 HP is easily cut through, especially with 40/50 defenses. I think it's best to just invest the 32 in SpA (unless someone can prove me wrong).
I mentioned that the 228 speed evs are to speed creep things speed creeping Rotom, which Pikachu needs due to its frailty. As I also mentioned, the Sp Def evs are to maximize the bulk from weak special hits (while also noting that this is by no means putting bulk into Pika), as putting them into Sp Attack helps nothing. The only other mon that Grass Knot hits harder then one of the other coverage moves is Onix, which is still OKO'd (0 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Onix: 452-536 (164.9 - 195.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO). However, thank you for bringing up the point that NP Mr. Mime runs 300 speed, I'd forgotten about that and suggest running 232+ speed, by taking 4 from Sp Def.
Raticate from B- to B/B+
Not much to say here, but the biggest thing that makes Raticate a lot better in the meta atm is the popularity of the Mareanie + Bronzor core, which the rat can break with ease, no boosts needed.
252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 160-190 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Raticate Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 144-170 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not much to say here, but the biggest thing that makes Raticate a lot better in the meta atm is the popularity of the Mareanie + Bronzor core, which the rat can break with ease, no boosts needed.
252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 160-190 (52.8 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Raticate Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 144-170 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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Maybe, but anyway its still takes outspeed from Combusken at 1+ and its takes around 70% of monferno mach punch, that is normally the amount of health that raticate has with burn/hail/sr dmg, also it takes outspeed from dugtrio-a,panpour and scarf frosttom and without boosts can't ohko them with sucker punch, anyway would be hard to it being b+ rank but b sounds nice
It's a wallbreaker, it doesn't have to outspeed all those mons. Hell, it doesn't even run sucker punch.
Raticate has base 97 Speed, which is pretty average considering its faster than max Speed Silvally/Scarf Obama outspeeds it. Sucker Punch is one of the main draws of using Raticate over a Bouffalant or something of that nature, because priority is useful when your Speed tier is average.
Other noms :
Smeargle B+ -> B- Shuckle
B- -> B Agree
Smeargle has some really annoying issue for the moment, it's sometimesa set up fooder for grass types (bar glare), you struggle to set up at the same time Sticky + Rocks and a random taunt user throws you in a very bad situation. On the opposite, Shuckle doesn't suffer for these problems and has the ability to set up several times the hazards in the battle. Shuckle is just a better sticky setter than Smeargle now. Spore/Glare + Memento stays useful for some specific sticky teams, notably sticky + set up but it's too limited to stay that high. Swap them
My noms :
A rank
A+ -> A
I dont think chatot is still A+ worthy. It became A+ after the departure of Lycanroc, since it has been A+ before Lycanroc was ZU, that was the main reasonning of the chatot ranking which was quite logic though. However, I had already big doubts few months ago about its A+ ranking and these doubts just become stronger now. Chatot is just a Mime-like, without the coverage of Mime but with a stronger stab. This mon has nothing fantastic, it's a good mon but without anything special to shine actually. Its scarf set which is the most common actually has naturally switch-in in any balanced team. Scarf Chatot struggles to bypass Mareanie+Bronzor and Tang+Muk core and relies too much about predictions to pressure the opposite team. Kecleon and Golem are both very common too and makes the choice of the good move quite difficult. If these cores are present on the opposite team, Chatot can on paper still force the switch and gain the momentum with u-turn but even that isn't simple actually because several bulky mons such as Vally have the possibility to take one hit of chatot just to scout the set which makes the u-turn prediction sometimes too much risky. It's a limit of the normal spam, whatever mon a bit bulky of whatever type can take a hit. These things aren't new but it hurts its revenge killer job a lot now and it needs support to weaken the opposite team to correctly kill the foe. Talking about support, it's not an easy mon to send on the board, you need a Vally to defog/pivot it or wait one of your mon die to use it, that's not new again but it's still a bit much support some team cannot take in charge and makes chatot not as splashable as it should be. I add Abomasnow and Kecleon aren't good news for the bird, priorities of both hurt/prevent it to click Boomburst. Also, Chatot can be totally useless in a battle if the opposite team run any bulky ghost (which is rare) or just a soundproof users and we have some of them quite common in ZU (Mime, Bouffa, Electrode, Hakamo-o,...). In these match ups, Chatot is just very disappointing and cannot do anything good. Talking about the other versions of Chatot, the Z-Encore set is fine but difficult to set up, need to get rid of priorities, soundproof user and rock/steel types before doing anything which requires almost a whole team build on this set. About the Specs version, it's an okay one but I feel everytime in playing it than Toucannon is just a better pick. Sure you're slower but you aren't blocked by any random soundproof user or Kec shadow sneak, and without having to do any prediction between boomburst/heatwave/hp grass or water if there is any rock/steel/ghost type in the opposite team. Most common vally actually are offensive one too and run a lot of speed, often enough to outspeed specs chatot. Except in offense, it's quite easy to guess the chatot's set at the team preview, you can planify a situation where NP/specs cannot pressure you and where the scarf cannot easily rk. It's something which doesnt happen with Mime for example where you cannot predict a Trick or Healing Wish and which can have a big influence in the battle. Tailwind exists for Chatot but you generally need other moves.
To summarize quickly my thoughts, I think chatot actually is too easily stopped and relies too much on the support of its teammates to still deserve the A+ rank. That's not a bad mon but it's not on the same level of viability than Kecleon, Mareanie or Golem.
B rank
Hakamo-o B -> B-/C+
It has bulk over fraxure but just doesnt have enough power or even opportunity to set up to work. Wall by Mareanie except if you run stuff such as Earthquake/Taunt but 1) Fraxure does the same thing 2) You are scald weak 3) If you run drain punch with that, you cannot hit much flying type. You need Poison Jab to dont be walled by Mime too, it suffers for a hard 4mss. I tested it and it's just very disappointing and I felt to play 5vs6 with it. Sometimes just a deadweight and every time it worked, Fraxure/Vigoroth would have done the same thing but just in better. Just disappointing.
Armaldo B -> B-/C+
Why is this ranked so high ? It's an awful spinner, it's only niche is in rain but this playstyle has been nerfed recently (even if it stays very good) and its presence in rain isn't mandatory, Relicanth can play the same role almost as good as Armaldo. Except in rain, Armaldo sucks. See this thing above Golduck or Huntail is quite crazy, B is overanked for the place it really has actually. Lets drop it in B- or C+.
Dugtrio B- -> C
ShuckleDeath wrote a post to explain well the niche it has over Duggy-A and that's really a tiny niche. It outspeeds Zebstrika/Raichu/Jumpluff over its Alola Form. Except if one of your team is very weak to one of these mons, you wont play Dugtrio instead of its partner Alola which is just better due to the steel type, best type in the game and so uncommon in ZU. SubDug-A and BandDug-A outclasses the other sets Dugtrio can run. Nothing else to add, C is the rank for niche mons.
Servine B- -> C+
Outclassed by Lurantis. Its utility stays in a fast taunt/glare defog leaf storm set but that's again really a niche which fits only in several teams for some reasons. Otherwise Lurantis is just better. I add Knock Off is really present right now which is really annoying for its staying power and it'ss a defoger which cannot levitate so it takes the toxic spikes if you dont have any poison types. And yeah, Leaf storm of this snake still does 0 damage. Glare is a bit annoying to face but that's really all it does for the moment.
C rank
Leavanny C+ -> C/C-
There are far too much competition between sticky setter and Leavanny isn't the greatest one. You will enjoy gets rocks with Smeargle/Shuckle for role compression or even Masquerain to get a mon with an offensive pressure, able to switch in into lurantis and with U-turn. Leavanny is just fast and cannot be hitted by hail. That's a small niche which fits in few webs team but it's overall outclassed by its other partners. Levanny is not actually on the same level of viability than mons such Bibarel, Swoobat, Silvally-Ground, Jumpluff, Murkrow, etc. Drop the creepy bug.
Gourgeist C+ -> C-/UU or even Unranked
It's in very bad spot at the moment. It cannot pass Mareanie, team which doesnt run Mareanie run tang/muk and it cannot pass either. It struggles to set up against more offensive playstyle, against webs, against semi-hail, against rain... It's even not good against stall. I dont see any reason actually to play it over Leafeon or even Trevenant to be honnest. I dont see either how to set up it and makes it useful. One of the most difficult mon to set up and which isn't terrific with +1 everywhere due to how many checks and counters there are in teams actually. C-/UU is fine for me but i wont care if it's finally Unranked.
Meowstic C+ -> C
It was ranked in C+ rank for its little Mushy set with Stored Power/Barrier/Calm mind/Rest but now pyuku is gone, Duosion Acid Armor is better due to a recovery which doesn't let you doing nothing during two turns. Its competitive set stays decent though but not C+ worthy. C is more accurate in my opinion.
Onix C+ -> C
Weather teams are severly nerfed with the presence of Obama and even if sun is the playstyle which suffers the less about that, it's an auto-lose again scarf Abomasnow. Also, Onix isn't mandatory in sun team, it's the best suicid lead sun setter but it can be swapped if you need (even by golem). It was too a sand setter but sand is unviable. Drop it in C.
Ditto C+ -> C
Overanked. Even if it's useful against some set up Sweeper such as Bibarel and is a good pick in stall now pyuku is gone, it doesn't have good splashability and actually there aren't as much mons to copy than in the past. Rain and fast set up Sweeper are less common but bulky set up Sweeper exist a lot against who ditto cannot do much. Also there are a lot of priorities. Ditto works only in dedicaced teams and isn't as threating or useful actually than mons such as Swoobat, Silvally-Ground or Jumpluff.
Lopunny C- -> Unranked
This mon sucks and should never be added in whatever team. There is no reason to play it, Healing wish users such as Mime or even bad mon like Chimecho have more utility to be played that this bunny. I dont remember when is the last time I've seen switcheroo AV work but I certainly wasn't born, that set is really really bad but still worse in 7gen with Z-Move and Vally everywhere in ZU. It's totally outclassed in its Healing wish role and otherwise it's just deadweight, a slot wasted.
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About the Masquerain set on the sample set
I'm maybe wrong but actually I think you cannot get rid of air slash if you play QD + Sticky web due to how common Mareanie is. Mareanie doesnt only haze it but it can easily throw the toxic spikes which threats a lot webs without poison type. Hydro Pump/Air slash looks to be the best coverage, only Chinchou resists it in ZU.
Smeargle has some really annoying issue for the moment, it's sometimesa set up fooder for grass types (bar glare), you struggle to set up at the same time Sticky + Rocks and a random taunt user throws you in a very bad situation. On the opposite, Shuckle doesn't suffer for these problems and has the ability to set up several times the hazards in the battle. Shuckle is just a better sticky setter than Smeargle now. Spore/Glare + Memento stays useful for some specific sticky teams, notably sticky + set up but it's too limited to stay that high. Swap them
My noms :
A rank
I dont think chatot is still A+ worthy. It became A+ after the departure of Lycanroc, since it has been A+ before Lycanroc was ZU, that was the main reasonning of the chatot ranking which was quite logic though. However, I had already big doubts few months ago about its A+ ranking and these doubts just become stronger now. Chatot is just a Mime-like, without the coverage of Mime but with a stronger stab. This mon has nothing fantastic, it's a good mon but without anything special to shine actually. Its scarf set which is the most common actually has naturally switch-in in any balanced team. Scarf Chatot struggles to bypass Mareanie+Bronzor and Tang+Muk core and relies too much about predictions to pressure the opposite team. Kecleon and Golem are both very common too and makes the choice of the good move quite difficult. If these cores are present on the opposite team, Chatot can on paper still force the switch and gain the momentum with u-turn but even that isn't simple actually because several bulky mons such as Vally have the possibility to take one hit of chatot just to scout the set which makes the u-turn prediction sometimes too much risky. It's a limit of the normal spam, whatever mon a bit bulky of whatever type can take a hit. These things aren't new but it hurts its revenge killer job a lot now and it needs support to weaken the opposite team to correctly kill the foe. Talking about support, it's not an easy mon to send on the board, you need a Vally to defog/pivot it or wait one of your mon die to use it, that's not new again but it's still a bit much support some team cannot take in charge and makes chatot not as splashable as it should be. I add Abomasnow and Kecleon aren't good news for the bird, priorities of both hurt/prevent it to click Boomburst. Also, Chatot can be totally useless in a battle if the opposite team run any bulky ghost (which is rare) or just a soundproof users and we have some of them quite common in ZU (Mime, Bouffa, Electrode, Hakamo-o,...). In these match ups, Chatot is just very disappointing and cannot do anything good. Talking about the other versions of Chatot, the Z-Encore set is fine but difficult to set up, need to get rid of priorities, soundproof user and rock/steel types before doing anything which requires almost a whole team build on this set. About the Specs version, it's an okay one but I feel everytime in playing it than Toucannon is just a better pick. Sure you're slower but you aren't blocked by any random soundproof user or Kec shadow sneak, and without having to do any prediction between boomburst/heatwave/hp grass or water if there is any rock/steel/ghost type in the opposite team. Most common vally actually are offensive one too and run a lot of speed, often enough to outspeed specs chatot. Except in offense, it's quite easy to guess the chatot's set at the team preview, you can planify a situation where NP/specs cannot pressure you and where the scarf cannot easily rk. It's something which doesnt happen with Mime for example where you cannot predict a Trick or Healing Wish and which can have a big influence in the battle. Tailwind exists for Chatot but you generally need other moves.
To summarize quickly my thoughts, I think chatot actually is too easily stopped and relies too much on the support of its teammates to still deserve the A+ rank. That's not a bad mon but it's not on the same level of viability than Kecleon, Mareanie or Golem.
B rank
It has bulk over fraxure but just doesnt have enough power or even opportunity to set up to work. Wall by Mareanie except if you run stuff such as Earthquake/Taunt but 1) Fraxure does the same thing 2) You are scald weak 3) If you run drain punch with that, you cannot hit much flying type. You need Poison Jab to dont be walled by Mime too, it suffers for a hard 4mss. I tested it and it's just very disappointing and I felt to play 5vs6 with it. Sometimes just a deadweight and every time it worked, Fraxure/Vigoroth would have done the same thing but just in better. Just disappointing.
Why is this ranked so high ? It's an awful spinner, it's only niche is in rain but this playstyle has been nerfed recently (even if it stays very good) and its presence in rain isn't mandatory, Relicanth can play the same role almost as good as Armaldo. Except in rain, Armaldo sucks. See this thing above Golduck or Huntail is quite crazy, B is overanked for the place it really has actually. Lets drop it in B- or C+.
ShuckleDeath wrote a post to explain well the niche it has over Duggy-A and that's really a tiny niche. It outspeeds Zebstrika/Raichu/Jumpluff over its Alola Form. Except if one of your team is very weak to one of these mons, you wont play Dugtrio instead of its partner Alola which is just better due to the steel type, best type in the game and so uncommon in ZU. SubDug-A and BandDug-A outclasses the other sets Dugtrio can run. Nothing else to add, C is the rank for niche mons.
Outclassed by Lurantis. Its utility stays in a fast taunt/glare defog leaf storm set but that's again really a niche which fits only in several teams for some reasons. Otherwise Lurantis is just better. I add Knock Off is really present right now which is really annoying for its staying power and it'ss a defoger which cannot levitate so it takes the toxic spikes if you dont have any poison types. And yeah, Leaf storm of this snake still does 0 damage. Glare is a bit annoying to face but that's really all it does for the moment.
C rank
There are far too much competition between sticky setter and Leavanny isn't the greatest one. You will enjoy gets rocks with Smeargle/Shuckle for role compression or even Masquerain to get a mon with an offensive pressure, able to switch in into lurantis and with U-turn. Leavanny is just fast and cannot be hitted by hail. That's a small niche which fits in few webs team but it's overall outclassed by its other partners. Levanny is not actually on the same level of viability than mons such Bibarel, Swoobat, Silvally-Ground, Jumpluff, Murkrow, etc. Drop the creepy bug.
It's in very bad spot at the moment. It cannot pass Mareanie, team which doesnt run Mareanie run tang/muk and it cannot pass either. It struggles to set up against more offensive playstyle, against webs, against semi-hail, against rain... It's even not good against stall. I dont see any reason actually to play it over Leafeon or even Trevenant to be honnest. I dont see either how to set up it and makes it useful. One of the most difficult mon to set up and which isn't terrific with +1 everywhere due to how many checks and counters there are in teams actually. C-/UU is fine for me but i wont care if it's finally Unranked.
It was ranked in C+ rank for its little Mushy set with Stored Power/Barrier/Calm mind/Rest but now pyuku is gone, Duosion Acid Armor is better due to a recovery which doesn't let you doing nothing during two turns. Its competitive set stays decent though but not C+ worthy. C is more accurate in my opinion.
Weather teams are severly nerfed with the presence of Obama and even if sun is the playstyle which suffers the less about that, it's an auto-lose again scarf Abomasnow. Also, Onix isn't mandatory in sun team, it's the best suicid lead sun setter but it can be swapped if you need (even by golem). It was too a sand setter but sand is unviable. Drop it in C.
Overanked. Even if it's useful against some set up Sweeper such as Bibarel and is a good pick in stall now pyuku is gone, it doesn't have good splashability and actually there aren't as much mons to copy than in the past. Rain and fast set up Sweeper are less common but bulky set up Sweeper exist a lot against who ditto cannot do much. Also there are a lot of priorities. Ditto works only in dedicaced teams and isn't as threating or useful actually than mons such as Swoobat, Silvally-Ground or Jumpluff.
This mon sucks and should never be added in whatever team. There is no reason to play it, Healing wish users such as Mime or even bad mon like Chimecho have more utility to be played that this bunny. I dont remember when is the last time I've seen switcheroo AV work but I certainly wasn't born, that set is really really bad but still worse in 7gen with Z-Move and Vally everywhere in ZU. It's totally outclassed in its Healing wish role and otherwise it's just deadweight, a slot wasted.
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I'm maybe wrong but actually I think you cannot get rid of air slash if you play QD + Sticky web due to how common Mareanie is. Mareanie doesnt only haze it but it can easily throw the toxic spikes which threats a lot webs without poison type. Hydro Pump/Air slash looks to be the best coverage, only Chinchou resists it in ZU.
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After playing one of BloodAce0107's teams countless times in room tours I decided it was time to build around ,what I found to be, the most threatening Pokemon on the team. Ninjask has put in work in almost ever single game I see it used Correctly in. Thanks to its fantastic speed tier and decent base Attack stat it is able to cement itself as an incredible Choice Band user. Below I will be sharing with you the set I've been having success with as of late.
Ninjask @ Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Leech Life
- Night Slash
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Leech Life
- Night Slash
Choice Band Ninjask does an exceptional job of pressuring most play styles due to the fact that it sticks to using U-turn during the early stages of the game in order to net the team some momentum. This allows it to be splashable on Volt-Turn teams that make use of hazard removers. When it comes to mid-game to late-game usage Ninjask can be a bit more reckless with the moves it uses as it is likely to either heavily chip a switch-in or just KO the Pokemon in front of it. Furthermore Ninjask has access to Leech Life which acts as a semi-decent form of recovery in order to maintain Ninjask's longevity which is essential when having to take Stealth-Rocks damage.
Unfortunately Ninjask does suffer from some pretty big technicalities. Due to Ninjask's Incredibly poor defensive stats it becomes very susceptible to Choice Scarf users who out speed it as well as strong priority users. Furthermore Ninjask suffers from a 4X Weakness to rocks which means a hazard remover is not only recommended but a requirement to having Ninjask preform its absolute best.
Despite all these negatives I believe that Ninjask still has the capabilities to justify its ranking at B-!
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Hakamo-o B -> B-/C+
It has bulk over fraxure but just doesnt have enough power or even opportunity to set up to work. Wall by Mareanie except if you run stuff such as Earthquake/Taunt but 1) Fraxure does the same thing 2) You are scald weak 3) If you run drain punch with that, you cannot hit much flying type. You need Poison Jab to dont be walled by Mime too, it suffers for a hard 4mss. I tested it and it's just very disappointing and I felt to play 5vs6 with it. Sometimes just a deadweight and every time it worked, Fraxure/Vigoroth would have done the same thing but just in better. Just disappointing.
While I agree with quite a few of your other nominations, I heavily disagree with this one. While it is true that Hakamo-o does have bad 4MSS, sets such as Sub DD do quite well against unprepared teams, and dual STAB has decent coverage against most of the metagame. Not only that, but saying that Hakamo-o is on the same level as mons like Meowstic-F, Sligoo, and Togetic is ignoring that it has the ability to deal with many high tier mons like Bouf and Golem without a D-Dance up, and mons like Rotom-Frost if it has either a D-Dance or a sub up.