The point is that Grimer from D to B is a pretty large jump, especially for a mon who's slow, late to evolve, and doesn't do that much else outside of spam powerful Sludge/Bombs (honestly its coverage moves aren't very useful for it; more on that later). Compared to fellow slow mons such as Makuhita and Geodude (trade), which you cited that Muk outperforms, both of them have important defensive utility (Thick Fat + early Rock/Ground typing) and superior offensive STAB.
I couldn't give less of a shit about where a mon is ranked originally. I nominate for where I think something deserves to be (i.e. Lanturn for A). If that means something rising 3 tiers, all that means to me is that whoever ranked it originally was either out of their mind, or did it based on theory (or arbitrary drops for availability) and it was never revisited.
Please tell me you didn't just cite
Rock/Ground as good defensive typing. Graveler/Golem is slower than Muk,
severely handicapped on typing, and has inferior attacking options up until it can learn Earthquake (Magnitude is probably roughly comparable to Sludge), Earthquake itself only giving it a reliable STAB and doing nothing to address its singlularly focused coverage. Muk wins easily.
Fighting is resisted by a lot more relevant things than poison is and Fighting is a much shittier defensive typing whereas Poison is top third defensively. Machop and Makuhita are vastly overrated, Fighting isn't a good STAB without something decent supporting it (a la Breloom, Blaziken). Moreover, Muk is bulkier than Hariyama as a whole (Hariyama has a 10% edge on Defense, Muk has a 25% edge on Special Defense). Muk has a significantly wider movepool than Hariyama as the kicker. Muk wins easily.
Moving on to the Gulpin comparison again: yes Gulpin/Swalot are relatively weak compared to Grimer/Muk, but they are largely saved by their movepool, what with early Sludge being a cool damaging STAB as I'm sure you're aware, while Amnesia and Ice Beam gives Swalot way easier matchups that it otherwise wouldn't have. Gulpin also has significantly more training opportunities than Grimer, such as against Brawly's gym which you grinded Goldeen against and all the routes adjacent to Mauville. Furthermore, Gulpin's quick growth rate means it should reach the Swalot stage before Flannery and start putting in work, while Grimer isn't likely to evolve until Winona and thus doesn't contribute nearly as much until then.
Suggesting Grimer, a Pokemon objectively stronger than Swalot, won't contribute as much up until it evolves is patently ridiculous. Swalot has an availability advantage of one badge over Grimer, that's it. You claim Gulpin levels up quickly because of its exp group? Grimer levels up quickly because it KOs things from the moment you capture it.
I don't care to continue this argument, I haven't used Gulpin to the extent you have (because it fucking sucks and I have zero desire to) and you evidently haven't used Grimer at all which begs the question of why you're challenging me on this.
(side note I find it patently ridiculous the number of times that anyone suggests skipping Brawly is a reasonable thing to do for any average player unless their team is completely incapable of beating him)
Meanwhile, Muk's coverage moves don't really change that much for it (bar Skarmory) as Screech + Sludge Bomb already beat everything it wants to take on, unless it wishes to expose itself to extremely dangerous mons like Gyarados and Metagross that can easily overpower it. The coverage is nice for saving PP and for just a little bit of consistency due to TBolt accuracy, but the Atk vs SpAtk disparity still limits their usefulness and aren't terrifically impactful.
How many times do I have to say that burning turns using stat moves (hi Amnesia, Yawn) is not a smart way to play through the in-game. Screech exists for boss fights, you are never using Screech+Sludge Bomb vs wild or trainer encounters because that's a terrible way to play if you're going for efficient kills and minimal damage taken. Thunderbolt means that all of the numerous water and flying trainers no longer require a Sludge (Bomb) to take them out, and yes gives it the option to target something like Gyarados, as if for example it uses X-Items like you're so fond of doing. Fire Blast does similarly for Ground types and Steels such as Lairon that would otherwise be problematic.
Moreover you're focusing solely on the special movepool, I outlined physical options as well in Dig and later Brick Break which play off of the stronger attack stat that allow Muk to deal with Rock and Steel types that Swalot never can. A final moveset of Sludge Bomb / Brick Break / Thunderbolt / Fire Blast or Screech is clearly and objectively better than Swalot's Sludge Bomb / Ice Beam / Shadow Ball / filler (Body Slam?).
Didn't you just claim your Grimer survived a super effective EQ from Altaria? Is it so hard to believe that Swalot, who's even bulkier, can easily survive Slaking's attack by comparison?
Let's be clear here, I did not
claim anything, I stated what had occurred approximately 20 minutes prior.
It's not hard to believe. I stated my assumption because, not having used Swalot, the assumption that it was able to fulfill the condition of surviving to see the value of Yawn was necessary to state for Yawn to be considered to have any value in the fight..
Yeah I definitely don't think Muk blows Swalot out of the water, especially in the midgame when Swalot can make big contributions in important matchups while Grimer is kinda just there.
For the sake of clarity I consider everything up through Norman to be the early game, Norman through Aqua hideout to be mid-game, and everything after to be late-game.
This is yet another comment that shows you have zero credibility talking about Grimer. To say that Grimer is "just kind of there" when it's literally stronger than the Swalot whose dick you're sucking is completely disingenuous. Grimer contributes immediately from the moment you acquire it, contributes a comparable amount as Swalot does vs Flannery as well as vs trainers, as well as vs Norman's gym and Pokemon excepting Slaking, Swalot's sole advantage if you want to call it that with Yawn.
And this is a NFE vs a FE were talking about! Grimer performs on par with Swalot during the early-game, and you seriously want to suggest that it's evolution isn't going to be directly superior? An evolution with objectively superior stats and movepool no less? Come on man.
Even when Grimer does eventually evolve, Muk doesn't manage to overshadow Swalot, since their bulk is similiar and the raw power difference tends to be unnoticeable if not small enough to be made up for by Sludge Bomb poison, or Ice Beam gives Swalot a significant offensive edge.
Disgusting bias. How can you justifiably say that Sludge Bomb's poison is an advantage for Swalot? That a 30% poison chance somehow justifies losing out on the KO in the first place? That Swalot is itself incapable of dealing with anything that resists Poison as Muk can with Dig or Brick Break or Fire Blast? How can you justifiably say that Ice Beam is a significant offensive edge in a way that any of Thunderbolt/Fire Blast/Brick Break do not match or surpass?
Their bulk is similar yet Muk is bulkier still, and to claim the raw power difference is minimal is simply wrong, as Muk holds a direct 25% strength advantage on the physical side.
Factual errors, cherrypicked to support your argument. And you have the gall to criticize the nominations of others?
I will concede that Muk does perform consistently better against fat Waters, since its power and Screech are more efficient at beating them than I gave credit for. Overall I'd say Grimer and Gulpin are about on par, and I wouldn't mind Grimer rising to C provided Gulpin does as well.
Why are you even posting a nomination. You've obviously never used Grimer. What qualification do you have to say that it should rise to C rank, or B, or to stay. What validity does your argument have that Gulpin must rise alongside it. There is none. Your conjecture of Gulpin's relative strength is solely the theorymon you seem to love to criticize others for.
Gulpin has been nominated for and adequately supported to be D-tier, by your own self if I recall. To argue that it should rise because another Pokemon, objectively superior and tenuously comparable is underranked is incompetent at worst and self-indulgent at best.
In case it gets lost in the preceding walls of posts, Grimer is a very good mon, the Sapphire variant should be B tier and the Ruby/Emerald variants should be C, being penalized for their acquiring cost.
And just so it's clear that I think you are capable of making good posts, and it's your posts in this circumstance that are gutter trash, I fully agree with you that Oddish and Roselia are both bad mons and are over-ranked
my tone here is overly harsh and I apologise, fatigue has mastered me. I understand and appreciate your intent in supporting the thread and hold no ill will towards you, my frustrations at what I perceive to be unreasonable and unnecessary challenges aside
Please also understand that I don't make nominations for things unless I am currently using them, that the nominations I make are from my best judgement of their value, and that your challenging of said nomination is not necessarily necessary unless you have personally contradictory experience or there are clear and evident misjudgements in the argumentation
Hmm I require actual input from y'all now, through sheer luck the Pikachu I picked at the Safari Zone is not on Modest but also came with a Light Ball.
Should I continue to evaluate Raichu or go forth with Light Ball Pikachu?
