Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Merritt

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Hey Colonel M just wanted to point out that if you're boxing Beautifly by Flannery time you're really only having it contribute in 1.5 major battles. Roxanne it can maybe in theory possibly take out the Geodude in Emerald (the RS one is not only level 14 but also has better IVs) but even then it'll need to go moderately high - up to level 13 or 14 itself to have a shot at OHKOing them. And it needs to OHKO otherwise Rock Throw or Rock Tomb straight up annihilate Beautifly. While getting up to 13/14 with the starter isn't really a particular challenge, it's definitely less than pleasant for Wurmple since it struggles with the high EXP trainer battles until it actually gets to Beautifly (and heaven help you if you grab a Silcoon and have to switch grind), meaning you're taking a good while feeding exp to it. Nosepass is a no pass, Absorb flat out doesn't do much and Rock Tomb, if it doesn't OHKO, will 2HKO.

Brawly is a different story, Beautifly can take him on at level 15 or 16 or so. It's not really an OHKO fest because even though Gust is super effective it's not really strong enough off Beautifly to instantly KO the relatively bulky Pokemon he uses.

Rival 2 Beautifly can usually take on Lombre/Grovyle which is valuable, but it's not going to win the battle alone generally speaking.

Wattson, Flannery, and Mt. Chimney are all absolutely terrible for Beautifly - it's got nothing to really hit with and in return faces strong and super effective attacks.

Basically Beautifly is only winning one major battle and only being vaguely helpful for two others, and Brawly is arguably the least important major battle to have an easy win against since he's skippable until after beating Flannery by which point if you can't KO a pokemon of his per turn then something is very wrong.
 

Colonel M

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Hey Colonel M just wanted to point out that if you're boxing Beautifly by Flannery time you're really only having it contribute in 1.5 major battles. Roxanne it can maybe in theory possibly take out the Geodude in Emerald (the RS one is not only level 14 but also has better IVs) but even then it'll need to go moderately high - up to level 13 or 14 itself to have a shot at OHKOing them. And it needs to OHKO otherwise Rock Throw or Rock Tomb straight up annihilate Beautifly. While getting up to 13/14 with the starter isn't really a particular challenge, it's definitely less than pleasant for Wurmple since it struggles with the high EXP trainer battles until it actually gets to Beautifly (and heaven help you if you grab a Silcoon and have to switch grind), meaning you're taking a good while feeding exp to it. Nosepass is a no pass, Absorb flat out doesn't do much and Rock Tomb, if it doesn't OHKO, will 2HKO.

Brawly is a different story, Beautifly can take him on at level 15 or 16 or so. It's not really an OHKO fest because even though Gust is super effective it's not really strong enough off Beautifly to instantly KO the relatively bulky Pokemon he uses.

Rival 2 Beautifly can usually take on Lombre/Grovyle which is valuable, but it's not going to win the battle alone generally speaking.

Wattson, Flannery, and Mt. Chimney are all absolutely terrible for Beautifly - it's got nothing to really hit with and in return faces strong and super effective attacks.

Basically Beautifly is only winning one major battle and only being vaguely helpful for two others, and Brawly is arguably the least important major battle to have an easy win against since he's skippable until after beating Flannery by which point if you can't KO a pokemon of his per turn then something is very wrong.
I'm perfectly fine with that. Since you can maybe understand the scenario I view Beautifly a little like FE6 Lot. You're only using them for a very short time to help clear some annoying pests that can be an issue and dropping right after it flakes out. I've had the misfortune of using Beautifly before and using it beyond Archie / Maxie first fight is generally a bad idea. Not only does it lack any good matchups afterwards (Giga Drain is not going to wallop through Wallace), it just lacks the raw stats and move pool without a lot of help. By the time you reach Flannery Geodudes become less common overall and Gust just isn't going to cut it by that point.

Wurmple isn't the best but Poison Sting does at least chip against some of the Grass-types. I concede Beautifly isn't really that great against Roxanne and Brawley, but it at least can give a head start in the fight. It will never beat Nosepass and you shouldn't even attempt to beat Nosepass with it.

Basically my argument hinges on Beautifly having okay enough contributions in the short periods to net a positive. You cannot ever say this for Altaria which is ranked above Beautifly by a large gap.

Though Silcoon is fucking terrible... Maybe there's a good point with that. It's kind of short so that's the only reason why I'm not as hard on it.

Even if you disagree Beautifly D Swablu C is something that is out of the question.
 
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So I keep wanting to use Barboach every time I start a run but every time I can't find any way to justify waiting until after Norman to start training a relatively weak fish. Am I missing something making this C? It seems like it would be appropriately ranked if you could get it the first time you got to route 114 but as it stands I don't see how it can justify it's positioning unless there's a way to get it earlier I'm not aware of.


In other news I'm planning out another run and deciding on what to use, if anyone has any requests for use or things they want more input on I'm happy to consider them. List of options are: Marill, Abra, Tentacool, Sableye, Oddish, Gulpin, Electrike, Roselia, Goldeen, Grimer, Spoink, Machop, Shuppet, Tropius, Solrock, Seviper, Barboach, Pikachu, Doduo, Natu, Girafarig, Rhyhorn, Heracross, Phanpy, Vulpix, Chimecho, Spheal, Snorunt


ATM I'm leaning towards something like the following structure:

Marill or Tentacool or Goldeen
Abra or Spoink or Natu or Chimecho or Girafarig
Goldeen or Barboach or Spheal
Seviper or Grimer or Gulpin or Oddish or Roselia or Tropius
Sableye or Shuppet or Heracross
Solrock or Rhyhorn or Phanpy or Machop
Doduo or Natu
Vulpix or Snorunt or Electrike or Pikachu


Some combination therein, I'm obviously totally undecided with party balance and such, but that should give you an idea of my mind as far as role comparison

Leaning Shuppet cause it missed the cut last time, leaning Marill, leaning Muk, no other preferences but Goldeen intrigues me since I've never raised one
 

Colonel M

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I'd like to see Tentacool honestly from that list. Maybe Marill, but I feel the conclusion will always be "it's OK but in the wrong Gen to be good."

Spoink would be another interesting one. Spoink has a pretty okay move pool and Psychic is early. Shock Wave access is kind of cool too.

I'd say Seviper next but the problem is it kind of likes Fire Blast.

No real opinion on fourth. Shuppet seems fine.

I'm curious on Natu but I feel if you have a Psychic like Spoink it's just going to eat at your competition.
 
I'd like to see Tentacool honestly from that list. Maybe Marill, but I feel the conclusion will always be "it's OK but in the wrong Gen to be good."

Spoink would be another interesting one. Spoink has a pretty okay move pool and Psychic is early. Shock Wave access is kind of cool too.

I'd say Seviper next but the problem is it kind of likes Fire Blast.

No real opinion on fourth. Shuppet seems fine.

I'm curious on Natu but I feel if you have a Psychic like Spoink it's just going to eat at your competition.
I've used Tentacool before actually when I did a no-evolution run, and tentacruel before at other times, it's pretty legit, but I can do it again too
 

Colonel M

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I've used Tentacool before actually when I did a no-evolution run, and tentacruel before at other times, it's pretty legit, but I can do it again too
I'd say if you haven't tried Goldeen give it a spin. I just don't see what it'll bring to the table is the problem. I could be wrong though.
 

Merritt

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I'm perfectly fine with that. Since you can maybe understand the scenario I view Beautifly a little like FE6 Lot. You're only using them for a very short time to help clear some annoying pests that can be an issue and dropping right after it flakes out. I've had the misfortune of using Beautifly before and using it beyond Archie / Maxie first fight is generally a bad idea. Not only does it lack any good matchups afterwards (Giga Drain is not going to wallop through Wallace), it just lacks the raw stats and move pool without a lot of help. By the time you reach Flannery Geodudes become less common overall and Gust just isn't going to cut it by that point.

Wurmple isn't the best but Poison Sting does at least chip against some of the Grass-types. I concede Beautifly isn't really that great against Roxanne and Brawley, but it at least can give a head start in the fight. It will never beat Nosepass and you shouldn't even attempt to beat Nosepass with it.

Basically my argument hinges on Beautifly having okay enough contributions in the short periods to net a positive. You cannot ever say this for Altaria which is ranked above Beautifly by a large gap.
Eh, I think I'd call Beautifly more a Wolt than a Lot. Available incredibly early, can do some useful chip against difficult enemies but nothing astounding, if you pour exp into it then it can take out generics ok for most of the game but isn't ever really a good boss killer. Overall kind of weak against anything it doesn't get effective damage against.

If it weren't for Brawly being quite literally the least essential major battle in the game aside from the fully optional Rustboro Emerald Rival then I could maybe see it. The story's a little different if you're going to carry Beautifly for the entire game since then it gets a chance to kind of help against more major battles, but a drop ASAP Beautifly looks more like Ruby Mawile to me (high stats for being early and shallow movepool but should be dropped/slaved after Norman) than a Graveler.

I'm fine with dropping Swablu to D and intend to in next update though.

So I keep wanting to use Barboach every time I start a run but every time I can't find any way to justify waiting until after Norman to start training a relatively weak fish. Am I missing something making this C? It seems like it would be appropriately ranked if you could get it the first time you got to route 114 but as it stands I don't see how it can justify it's positioning unless there's a way to get it earlier I'm not aware of.


In other news I'm planning out another run and deciding on what to use, if anyone has any requests for use or things they want more input on I'm happy to consider them. List of options are: Marill, Abra, Tentacool, Sableye, Oddish, Gulpin, Electrike, Roselia, Goldeen, Grimer, Spoink, Machop, Shuppet, Tropius, Solrock, Seviper, Barboach, Pikachu, Doduo, Natu, Girafarig, Rhyhorn, Heracross, Phanpy, Vulpix, Chimecho, Spheal, Snorunt


ATM I'm leaning towards something like the following structure:

Marill or Tentacool or Goldeen
Abra or Spoink or Natu or Chimecho or Girafarig
Goldeen or Barboach or Spheal
Seviper or Grimer or Gulpin or Oddish or Roselia or Tropius
Sableye or Shuppet or Heracross
Solrock or Rhyhorn or Phanpy or Machop
Doduo or Natu
Vulpix or Snorunt or Electrike or Pikachu


Some combination therein, I'm obviously totally undecided with party balance and such, but that should give you an idea of my mind as far as role comparison

Leaning Shuppet cause it missed the cut last time, leaning Marill, leaning Muk, no other preferences but Goldeen intrigues me since I've never raised one
Barboach: mostly the ground moves - gets EQ right at evolution (make sure to delay a level) and Whiscash has fine all around stats and can do the normal Surf/Ice Beam water stuff early enough to contribute vs Winona, Tate&Liza, ect. Access to EQ also lets it actually fight water types unlike the generic Ice Beam/Surf mons. It's not the best thing ever but it doesn't really have any bad major battle matchups for the rest of the game. Make sure you catch one at level 20+, not the level 10-20 ones.

For mons:

Abra I don't really think needs more runs, it slaps the game hard enough. Spoink you could do for yet another perspective on Grumpig's placement. I wouldn't recommend Chimecho simply because of how hard it is to find - it's run interest killing levels of boring. The other two would be interesting enough.

I'd suggest Barboach just because you brought it up over the other two. If you're not interested, either of the other two would be fine choices.

If this is Emerald be prepared for a long boring wait for Grimer but sure that'd be the most interesting one there. I would not recommend doing both Grimer and Chimecho. Tropius doesn't need a run imo, it's pretty clearly just an HM slave but you can always grab one for utility.

Shuppet.

Honestly? Rhyhorn would be nice to see. It's got not much data and it'd be good to figure out exactly how bad it is. If you don't want to use badmon then Solrock.

Either or, Natu would be a little more interesting though.

Pikachu. I don't think we need yet another Manectric run unless you plan to get the post-Norman one.

All just my opinions obviously, if something's leaping at you then anything's good.
 

Punchshroom

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Why would I ever use Beautifly beyond a certain point? I think you're grossly misreading what I am saying. Beautifly is there for earlygame shenanigans when the party lacks better options. If you start Torchic Beautifly is an okay middle ground for Roxanne and Brawly. It has okay enough matchups against some Geodudes and the like to at least be useful for a little while longer. I would say it should be boxed by Flannery at the latest. I wouldn't teach a shit mon a valuable move like Psychic when I can teach it to something else. It's an option, but trying to make Beautifly useful by Flannery is bad.
Oh so you're not one of those aforementioned people who thought it'd not be an asinine idea to take Beautifly all the way to the E4. Good to know.

My argument, however, is not even close to based on Beautifly throughout the entire game, but focuses on its performance earlygame that has a small enough opportunity cost to be worthwhile and can be benched later for better or more versatile Pokemon. Not sure why the meme of carrying Beautifly beyond Flannery even exists, but focusing on when it is at least performing positive contributions is where I am at.

For the portions I have mentioned Beautifly does fine for those. It has uses for taking on some of the more troubling types to get over for some trainers without being a major burden. Is it a burden beyond Flannery? Definitely. Does that mean D Rank is impossible for it? Absolutely not.
How is this D worthy at all? None of the early-game D Ranks nor the E Ranks experience a dropoff period this hard. Beautifly is already a burden after the 2nd Rival battle, much less Flannery. Even Sableye and Dustox can still help against Norman.

By the time you catch Swablu Beautifly is starting to show a lot of weaknesses. Being comparable to Beautifly offensively at that point isn't good. By the time Swablu joins there are a larger variety of options for trainers to choose, and some will choose wincons for certain gym matchups to make it easier to use their smaller team. Look at some of the C rank Pokemon at the moment. Geodude is easily outperforming Swablu by this point and won't slow down until after you face Winona, Barboach can handily take down Flannery and has a good enough typing and move pool to continue on for a bit, Machop at least can handle Norman to some extent, etc.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Barboach is only obtainable after Surf since that's how you get the Good Rod, so yeah. Also Geodude's case is pretty much the opposite of Swablu's in that it's efficient early-game but drops off late-game (though Swablu can pick up late-mid with Ice Beam vs Winona), so I say it's a fair trade in that sense.

For Swablu to succeed:

- It needs to grind a lot harder than Beautifly who at least makes some net positive contributions.
- Has to reach Altaria with an ERRATIC growth rate - one of the worst growth rates in the game for in-game.
- Relies on STAB Secret Power to match Beautifly un-STAB Secret Power which is pathetic. Every fucking Normal-type easily outdamages Swablu and has access to other perks (Linoone, Zangoose, Tailow) While not being a detriment to the team.
- Even joking about putting Ice Beam on Altaria is awful. There are so many Water-types that can use Ice Beam much more effectively. Examples include - Starmie, Lanturn, Walrein, Swampert... The list goes on.
- Altaria is still really shit in the E4. Contrary to popular belief Altaria is not Gyarados in terms of bulk. Sydney's Mightyena, Iirc, has Roar. Already not setting up here, and there's almost no need if you have a good Fighting-type like Medicham. It's okay ish against Phoebe but Pressure is going to eat at your moves PP a bit. Don't get me started on Drake and Glacia. Unless you have Taunt you're going to have a rough time DDing the E4. Which it can't learn.
- Except Beautifly's positive contributions pretty much stop after Rival 2, and then it becomes nothing more than a route beater.
- I will admit this is a factor against Swablu and is a significant part of what makes it a chore to train, but whether this makes Swablu E Tier worthy is still debatable.
- Normal-types have some of the best attacking options in the early-mid game, especially with Silk Scarf; the fact that Swablu gets these respectable STAB moves is enough to supplement it despite its poor power. Not to mention that the argument of bringing up competition against Swablu already falls flat since, you know, Beautifly is outclassed by so many mons in general, AND it too wants Secret Power.
- By that logic, Psychic is made use of better by literally anything else on the team that gets it. If nothing else on the team learns it, then you'd be better off just buying an elemental beam anyway.
- Lol obviously don't set up on the Mightyena, which is one of the hardest things to set up on in the game thanks to Intimidate, Sand-Attack, and Roar; just set up on the fodder that are the Grass/Darks. Also, Drake actually has a harder time killing Altaria than you think, since the only attack on his team that can threaten to KO Altaria is his Mence's Dragon Claw. Aside from that, everything else is good for at least 1 DD, and you can use an X Sp.Atk for Ice Beam to kill things as well as an X Sp.Def to make those Dragonbreaths tickle (obviously mind the parahax).

Nothing about Altaria impresses me and your arguments fail to sway me towards it. While STAB Secret Power makes its offense tolerable at best, it still makes it look awful when you can barely beat out a base 70 Atk Pokemon that's using your move un-STABbed.
I mean this is how I feel about Beautifly's offense, which barely ever improves even as it gets its stronger attacks since things get way bulkier for its own good, while Altaria gets the moves to circumvent this eventually.

- Gulpin has no real advantages throughout the game barring Poison-type moves and maybe Fire Blast. Comparing Gulpin to fucking Geodude is an insult to Geodude.
- Pikachu relies on Light Ball and only gains benefit from Thunderbolt. While it works against Wallace I guess, Aqua, and somewhat Glacia, it kind of needs some extra babying to get there. I would actually humor this one.
- Girafarig comes way too late, has no gym advantage, and can't get a high base powered Return until late in the game. Also has dicey moments against Magma and Aqua since there's Dark-types. I guess at least Carvanha is so frail it can maybe net a Ohko with Secret Power.
- Pinsir has nothing noteworthy to add to a team other than "it hits hard with non STAB". Are we even trying with these nominations? Swords Dance is way too late.
- Lunatone? Well it has two decent ish matchups. Doesn't really excel otherwise. Eh.
- Plusle/Minun at D is...hard. Spark is a bit later than I want it to be. Would say pass.
- Snorunt is only tolerable for Drake. Hell. No.
- Torkoal is way too fucking slow and lacks perks other Fire-types like Numel have. It doesn't even compare to Beautifly since Torkoal has literally 0 good gym matchups and even worse against Team Aqua Magma.
- No to Dustox. It has a worse match-up pool than Beautifly (a lot worse) and Toxic shenanigans are way too late to matter (if it learned Toxic at Lv 25 you could maybe make a shitty argument of being useful vs Norman. Or use a real Pokemon).
- Imo, Gulpin is significantly better than the other Poisons, and is a decent enough mon in its own right to warrant the rise. Its access to Amnesia and Encore means it turns Flannery's Slugmas into complete setup fodder, and can beef itself up enough to take on Torkoal 1v1 (ideally Swalot should be female to avoid Attract). It can't lead off against Emerald Flannery due to her Magnitude Numel, but get past that and Swalot can do the same. Sludge Bomb / Ice Beam / Body Slam is solid enough coverage to get Swalot by for the rest of the game, and Amnesia allows Swalot to tank against Glacia and even Drake. Sure, Drake is tricky due to his Flygon(s), but only one of the RS Flygons has Dig which is super easy to respond to with switching or even an X Defend, while Emerald only has one Flygon to worry about

- Yeah I'd like you to scroll back up again and see what I had to say about Pikachu, such as how it's pretty much just a slightly later mid-game Electrike that trades slightly later availability for saving up the TBolt TM, and specifically how I chose to omit Light Ball for its consideration.

- Girafarig isn't a terrible Psychic-type, but it has a couple of niches that warrant mentioning. The first is its Normal-typing, which gives Normal STAB but that's not as important as giving Girafarig a positive matchup against Phoebe. The other niche is that it's the only Psychic-type aside from Gardevoir that gets access to Thunderbolt, which gives Girafarig a significant edge in the Juan/Wallace and Glacia fights. I'd say it's better than Natu in this regard.

- The reason I put Lunatone above Solrock is pretty much for one simple reason: Ice Beam access. This gives Lunatone just as much, if not greater matchups against most of the things Solrock wants to use Rock Slide against. The icing on the cake is that Lunatone gets Psychic by level-up, meaning it gets the best of both worlds in having a strong Calm Mind-boostable STAB that didn't require excessive cash spending, while being able to kill most of whatever Solrock can.

- Plusle and Minun, by virtue of being Electric-types, should arguably be D Tier at worst by default what with Thunderbolt access + Electric's good neutral matchup in nearly all important fights post-Surf. Certainly better than whatever Beautifly has to offer, meaning that being a tier lower than Beautifly would be a great disservice to them.

- Snorunt, like Swablu and Baltoy, are one of those mons with poor early periods that aim for a good matchup in ~2 of the E4 fights. Honestly I'd say Snorunt is better off compared to those two since it suffers relatively less dead period.

- For the record, Torkoal has Protect so that's one gym matchup (tied with Beautifly's one, and that's just Gym 2). The real reason I put Torkoal higher than E is having powerful attacking options with minimal TM dependence. It can also function as an actual tank (and no, not like Beautifly, you apologists out there), with Iron Defense giving it a terrific Steven matchup.

- Yes, Dustox's early movepool is so much worse than Beautifly's that this is the only nomination on this list that I'm not 100% willing to go through if the Beautifly rise happens. That said, Dustox's Sludge Bomb actually hits about as hard as Beautifly's Psychic, which is to say it's stronger than Beautifly's STABs. In any case, Dustox's ability to Toxic things contributes better in big matchups than whatever measly damage Beautifly is expected to put out.
 
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Unless anyone has any ideas that they really want to to see played out I think I'm going to going with the following: Shuppet / Rhyhorn / Grimer / Natu / Goldeen / Pikachu

And since I have nothing until route 117 I'll get to personally play with Taillow until Natu, Marill until Goldeen, and Sableye until Shuppet
 
Unless anyone has any ideas that they really want to to see played out I think I'm going to going with the following: Shuppet / Rhyhorn / Grimer / Natu / Goldeen / Pikachu

And since I have nothing until route 117 I'll get to personally play with Taillow until Natu, Marill until Goldeen, and Sableye until Shuppet
You can fish Goldeen in Petalburg City after getting the old rod in Dewford town.
 
can someone help with my emerald battle frontier team? It is Venusaur, Alakazam, Shedinja, Zapdos, Dragonite, and Tyranitar. I have completed the Battle Dome and Battle Pike. So, what movesets should i use on my team?
 
can someone help with my emerald battle frontier team? It is Venusaur, Alakazam, Shedinja, Zapdos, Dragonite, and Tyranitar. I have completed the Battle Dome and Battle Pike. So, what movesets should i use on my team?
Not quite the place, friend! This thread is for the main adventure up until the champion, and measuring how well each Pokémon does on that adventure. A more suitable place would be the Orange Islands SQSA thread, and while I haven't quite looked into it since it's not my cup of tea, I'm sure there's other threads around here dedicated to it. Hope you find what you're looking for!
 

Punchshroom

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Look, I'm sorry if my posts got too aggressive; I'm just getting increasingly baffled and exasperated at some of the pro-rise arguments presented. I am especially amused by the accusation of my 'sensationalized' posts when I feel your arguments are the ones that need more justification, such as:
Between the points of evolution up to approximately Norman Beautifly was consistently at or among the tankiest members of the team not being 2HKOed by most things, being able to outspeed and Mega Drain if it was at risk, and 1 or 2HKO in return.

Tl;dr Beautifly effectively acts as a tank for the first half of the game and then switches roles to a glass cannon for the second half
Swablu/Altaria has no functional type coverage and therefore will be 2HKOing everything as opposed to Beautifly which can often OHKO
It's statements like these that made me question whether we were even using the same Pokemon, or even playing the same game. Even as I tried my best to put myself into your shoes by using Beautifly, I still cannot for the life of me figure out what you see in this thing, as it has done literally none of the things for me that you've pointed out here. It doesn't "tank" against anything but the weaker trainers (very loose definition here btw, I don't expect my tanks to take like 30% per blow against neutral random fodder), the only thing it consistently OHKOes is Geodude (no, my Beautifly has not been OHKOing Fightings nor Grasses all of the time), and even you have to admit that calling it a 'glass cannon' is a gross overstatement.

And then we have Colonel M who agrees that Beautifly is a fairly cheap and decent super early-game investment, and then largely becomes deadweight after Flannery 2nd Rival, but goes on to say that sort of minimal contribution is good enough for D? I would first like to say that training up Wurmple isn't exactly a breeze in the park, and it requires even more investment if it's expected to put up a fight against the 2nd Rival's starter or it just gets overpowered anyway. Worse yet, Colonel M goes on to say that Swablu is worse in comparison, even though Swablu performs on par with Beautifly for much of the game's route sweeping (Beautifly's only clear advantage over Swablu is Mega Drain vs Rock-types) and only goes uphill from there to the point where it can contribute in major battles, way more than can be said about Beautifly hitting its peak and then crashing and burning before even mid-game. Colonel, I just want you to know that the tier list does assess how much & long a Pokemon contributes throughout the entire game; if it starts losing usefulness, that gets factored in just as much as how much it has helped. Look at Geodude, which has a great matchup for a whopping 4 gyms in a row, but because it loses steam from that point on, it's only placed at a modest C tier. What of Beautifly, which falls off before even 15% of the game is done?

Again, I apologize for any hostility on my end, but having to deal with arguments like these back-to-back is taking a toll on my online etiquette.
 
Mate you don't have to deal with anything. I have my experiences and opinions from them, you have yours. Neither of us is going to convince the other that what we experienced is wrong hence why I stopped trying. I don't have any agenda here, from what I experienced I believe Beautifly to be D supported by some other people who tried, you believe it to be E also supported. It falls to Merritt to arbitrate or other people to post their experience and there's nothing more to be gained by going back and forth over the same arguments.
 

Punchshroom

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Yes yes, the whole "agree to disagree" thing, and I can at least agree that Beautifly is indeed better than some of the current E Ranks. It's just that some of the standards some of you have, such as calling a mon with 60/50/50 bulk (frailer than Combusken & Swellow, on par with Nuzleaf) an effective tank just because it has draining attacks, or calling a mon that only matters for a tiny portion of the game worthy enough to not be E Rank, makes me slightly concerned that we might have similiar arguments again in the future the next time you guys bring up a nomination, so I thought I'd do my best to at least understand your thought processes.

Sadly, it seems we can't see eye to eye regarding Beautifly, so sorry for the long-winded arguments.
 
I mean if you want my mindset in a microcosm it's that I don't feel beholden by the stats if things play out situationally different. I'm fully cognizant of what's Beautifly's stats say, but my experience suggests that it's not limited by them to the extent that you say.

Essentially, I found Beautifly to be bulky at the time where it wasn't strong, and strong enough at the time where it wasn't bulky. Not solely by virtue of stats, though 60/50/50 certainly qualifies as reasonably bulky up until Flannery or so, but also by virtue of typing, where its weaknesses are not present at the point of the game where it relies on bulk and it's resistances are relevant (rock an exception to the first, grass an exemplar of the second). It was my experience and is my opinion that Bug/Grass/Flying, and Psychic if you choose, is effective type coverage against the majority of opponents Beautifly will encounter which allows it to perform admirably in spite of it's statistical lacking, fully acknowledging that it's performance in Gym (but not against Team Admins and Leaders!) Is lacking.

My mindset is simply that with all the above taken into account, as well as the usual tiebreakers in accessibility, I found it to be an adequate team member and it's performance is one that I consider worthy of D.

Edit: I think it's worthy of reminding that I brought Beautifly to the end game specifically to test it's performance there, and that as can be evidenced in my updates I was prepared to keep it in E if it sucked. I was satisfied enough with it's performance through the end game (thinking of Team Aqua, Water routes, Sidney, and Victory Road) to determine it should be D.
 
Probably a dumb idea, but I was wondering what would happen if one of you somehow recorded (parts of) a Beautifly run and shared it with the rest of us. Might that clear up some misunderstanding?
 

Fireburn

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Recently completed another run to weigh in on some more mons. I used Swampert/Beautifly/Torkoal/Shroomish/Pikachu/Shuppet.

Swampert: S-Rank for sure lol, the savior of my team of memes

Beautifly: I decided to try this out and I'm just not seeing how it's worth D-Rank. Getting one is fairly annoying since Wurmple can potentially evolve into a different mon and if it does you just have to catch a new Wurmple and start over. Once you do get one its performance is...not good, at least not without getting lucky. The positives are that it does beat Brawly, though not without problems: Meditite took one Gust which allowed it to set up Reflect for Makuhita to start Bulking Up, if it wasn't for a crit Makuhita could have potentially killed Beautifly 1v1. It also handles Rival 2's Grass-type adequately for Mudkip users. The positives end there and past that point its not helpful for much other than being a route sweeper...which in order to actually be a route sweeper you have to spend $70k on it as soon as you reach Mauville to teach it Psychic, a money benchmark you can't meet unless you fight every trainer up to Mauville including Wattson and sell some valuable things like TMs/PP Up/Elixirs and Pickup items from Zigzagoon. This level of investment is unjustifiable to me for a mon who's only niche is beating a Gym Leader that you can delay until after Badge 4 and can't really contribute much in other major battles unless it gets lucky. It is an acceptable route beater, but I don't think its a good choice for it nonetheless as the Route trainers more or less serve as XP for your boss killers and Beautifly is arguably wasting the XP since it can't kill bosses. I would argue its also more efficient to delay Brawly until after Flannery rather than use Beautifly, which at the end of the day gives it no niche - if you really need to Beat Brawly Right Now just use Taillow or Sableye and bench it when the deed is done. Overall I think it should stay E-Rank, it's not worth the time or effort for how tiny its niche is.

I also want to point out that Beautifly's matchups vs Roxanne and Tate/Liza are pretty bad so those can't be counted in its favor - it fails to kill her Geodude with Absorb and dies to Rock Tomb, and its contribution vs Tate and Liza consisted of doing half to Claydol with Silver Wind and then getting oneshot by Ancientpower.

Torkoal: I think Torkoal is potentially worth D-Rank. Torkoal is slow as molasses but has decent mixed offense and has some pretty good moves, coming with Curse and getting Body Slam at 20 and Flamethrower at 30. Curse, typing, and high Defense allows it to beat Flannery (can set up on Slugma, get a female Torkoal to dodge Attract), Protect allows it to cheese Norman pretty easily and it can even take out Winona if you Curse up on Skarmory (Tropius also works) due to White Smoke blocking Sand Attack. After Winona Torkoal's usefulness does tank pretty hard on the sea routes and the final two gyms, though it can still contribute ok against the Elite Four by taking out Sidney's Grass-types, slinging Overheats at Phoebe, melting Glacia's Glalies and having an ok matchup against RS Steven's Steel-types (though obviously it is worthless against Wallace). I think being able to handle three mid-game gyms pretty well + being decent against regular trainers and having some E4 contributions make it better than the stuff in E and potentially worth raising to D. It's better than Beautifly at any rate.

Shroomish: Solid A-rank mon but not sold on S. Shroomish is a good mon for sure, having a quick evolution, powerful attacks, Bulk Up as a strong setup option, and overall pretty good matchups. What I am not convinced on is that it is better than or even as good as Torchic, a fellow S-rank Fighting-type. Breloom does have some flaws that I think hurt it in some major battles. A quad Flying weakness prevents it from touching Winona at all (Blaziken can at least deal with Tropius and Skarmory) and makes it a riskier bet against Team Magma/Aqua due to the existence of Golbat. A Fire weakness hurts it against Flannery, which Combusken can reasonably take on by setting up on Slugma. It's Elite Four performance is somewhat spottier: Breloom cannot mixed attack effectively which prevents it from helping much with Phoebe and also makes it a bit worse vs RS Steven (while Blaziken has 110 SpA Flamethrowers to toss around, though Breloom can possibly set up on Claydol and win if it can outspeed Metagross), and Blaziken is ultimately a better choice to take on Glacia due to lack of Ice weakness allowing it to set up on Glalie. Breloom's key advantage is that it is better against Water-types, though it can struggle to sweep the major Water trainers still: Juan's Kingdra is faster and has Ice Beam, Wallace has faster Mach Punch resistant Tentacruel with Ice Beam and faster Milotic with Ice Beam, and due to Breloom's mediocre special bulk Ice Beam from these mons will severely injure if not OHKO Breloom (my +Speed Breloom was outsped and OHKOed by Milotic's Ice Beam in the champion fight). I also don't think you can make the argument Breloom is significantly better against the ocean routes than Blaziken, as STAB Fighting and max power Return off 120 Attack will easily kill all of the ocean mooks. Now all this isn't to say Breloom is bad - its quite good actually - but I do not believe it is on par with Torchic, whose typing, mixed offense, and better Speed (80 vs 70 can make the difference against things like Skarmory and Metagross, for example) give it the edge in more major battles and thus should give it the edge on the rankings.

Pikachu: I think Pikachu is probably good enough to raise to D, though I must add a disclaimer: I was lucky enough to get a Light Ball and thus used Light Ball Pikachu instead of Raichu. Pikachu is an effective Thunderbolt machine that does not need the TM, which frees it up to be given to someone else (you can never have enough mons with Thunderbolt in this game). Pikachu fries the ocean efficiently and puts in a solid effort against Winona, Juan, Glacia and Wallace, and in matchups where it doesn't have the advantage it can help support the team with TWave and Light Screen kind of like Electrode. I think Raichu is probably about as effective as Light Ball Pikachu due to having existent bulk and better Speed compensating for the loss in power. Otherwise not too much to say, its a good Thunderbolt machine that doesn't require much investment to be useful outside feeding it some swimmers and Aqua Grunts. Worthy of D-rank for sure imo, Electric-types are great in this game.

Shuppet: Decent on paper but disappointing in practice. 110/80 ish offenses as Banette with immediate Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt TM access theoretically make it a good attacker for lategame, but it is let down by a combination of bad Speed and bulk which limits its contributions. Mine being a -Speed nature probably didn't help matters. Its a solid route cleaner post evolution and its meaty Shadow Ball is useful against Tate and Liza and Phoebe (if you outspeed her Banettes, which isnt guaranteed). Its Thunderbolt isn't really strong enough to deal with the Water bosses though, so against Juan and Wallace (and Drake's Kingdra) I wound up trading its life to Curse their ace mons which proved useful. I think it fits in D-Rank as a somewhat useful but not spectacular late-game mon.

tl;dr Raise Pikachu and Torkoal to D, keep Shroomish A, keep Beautifly E
 
Even if Blaziken were better than Breloom om (which I disagree with) one being in S shouldn't preclude the other from also being in S

Also Beautifly does not require Psychic from the Game Corner as evidenced by my run although it certainly appreciates it.
 

Punchshroom

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Just finished some runs with Treecko, Geodude (later dropped for Staryu), Gulpin, Torkoal, Pikachu, and Girafarig.


Since it's the only mon I had pre-Roxanne, it was a Grovyle by then so it easily beat her. It was a good enough route cleaner with Bullet Seed and Rock Tomb, but in the upcoming major fights it only served to finish off Brawly's crippled Makuhita as well as beat Wattson's Electrike, and didn't so much as show its face in the Flannery, Norman, and Winona fights. It only really starts to dominate after those battles, where it's free to Leaf Blade nearly everything in sight. Honestly, Treecko's early and even mid-game period is pretty lacking for me to be completely sold on A, though its lategame prowess certainly provides a strong argument, especially in Emerald.


Quite the opposite case with Treecko: Very potent early- to mid-game bosses and routes & can easily fit Strength + Rock Smash while remaining battle-worthy, but fizzles out late-game. It becomes a liability in the Tate&Liza and Wallace/Juan fights, and all Golem could really in the Elite 4 is beat Sidney's Mightyena & Absol, Phoebe's non-Wisp Banette & Sableye, and Steven's Aggron, all of which are not difficult targets at all. A case could be made for it going B tier by description alone, but it fits in more with the C Tier crowd.


This isn't half-bad at all. Granted I gave Gulpin a bit of leeway by backtracking to Brawly for a bit more experience than usual, but Yawn + Sludge can hold its own against a variety of opponents, though it usually needed Grovyle's help to take down the Gym Leader's ace after Yawning it. Swalot proved quite capable of taking down Flannery (though in Emerald, Graveler needed to get Numel out of the way first), easily boosting with Amnesia and a single X Atk for good measure/cos why not and swept the gym. Yawn's utility came in handy against Norman as well. Btw, I didn't have enough cash after that fight to buy the Ice Beam TM, and instead of selling an arm and a leg for it I just decided to clear the routes to Fortree first and then backtracking. With Ice Beam, Swalot easily 1v1ed Altaria, not even being put into the red by a +1 EQ. I also rarely ever clicked Body Slam so I decided to let it learn Toxic, completing its final moveset of Sludge Bomb/Ice Beam/Toxic/Amnesia, with the two attacking moves serving it well for the rest of the game. Swalot came in useful again for the Glacia and Drake. Amnesia allowed Swalot to Sludge Bomb through, though it needs an X Atk lest it burn through too much PP against the Hyper Potion spam. It can also somewhat tank Drake's Salamence since I didn't think Starmie was quite able to comfortably 1v1, though it may need a Hyper Potion if Dragon Claw gets some high rolls. It also hard countered Wallace's Ludicolo with Liquid Ooze and Toxiced Milotic for the easy win. This kind of not outstanding but solidly adequate enough performance throughout the whole game affirms my nomination of Gulpin to C Tier.


Most of it has been said by Fireburn already, but basically Torkoal gets points for its nicely tankish stats and especially its low TM reliance thanks to having one of the better level-up movepools in the game. Curse/Body Slam/Overheat/Flamethrower will serve Torkoal fine in routes, and I even gave Torkoal Earthquake over Body Slam in RS just so it can solo Phoebe (don't set up on Curse Dusclops duh) and Steven even easier. Unfortunately, Torkoal's stellar Steven matchup is offset by its uselessness against Wallace, though this is a tradeoff that shouldn't hold Torkoal back from rising to D Tier.


I'm starting to believe that Pikachu jumping up to C Tier isn't a ridiculous notion. Compared to Voltorb, which is also in C Tier, Pikachu arrives insignificantly later and requires less babying due to immediate access to natural TBolt and its evolution, or even a Light Ball like lucky-ass Fireburn over here. On a related note,
are definitely worthy of at least D Tier.; Electric-types are just that good especially in the later stretches of the game, Plusle and Minun being no exception.


Staryu and Chinchou are both late-game Water-types that have terrific late-game potential, but not only does Staryu have the power and Speed advantage for better efficiency, it also has the availability advantage, since Staryu can be obtained BEFORE fighting Tate&Liza, not after. Unfortunately you still cannot evolve Staryu before then since Water Stones (& Blue Shards) can only be obtained via Diving, but it doesn't mean Staryu can't throw out its prized elemental coverage to hurt things. Light Screen support from teammates or Staryu itself, which it learns by level-up, may even allow it to possibly contribute against Tate&Liza, though the possibility of being double targeted makes this prospect unlikely. Still, it does mean less time for babying than Chinchou (which should also be B imo), as Staryu is more than capable of beating route trainers.


You may be wondering why I'm discussing Natu instead of the Girafarig I used. Well, let me just say that Girafarig is pretty adequate overall and truly shines in the Phoebe matchup, though that's about it, and I don't think this niche is outstanding enough to really warrant a rise out of D. What does stand out to me is what exactly Natu is supposed to be doing. Not only does it have a poor Phoebe matchup like all the other Psychics, but its Flying typing means it is also vulnerable to Glacia. Natu also lacks any sort of advantage over better Psychics, such as availability, better stats, typing, Thick Fat, Thunderbolt, etc.; literally the only thing I can see it offering is its ability to set up on Wallace's Whiscash, while the other Psychics have a tougher time setting up on anything else Wallace has. However, most of those Psychics also take less Calm Minds to get going in the first place or more than make up for it by easily beating other matchups. I simply don't think Natu has enough going for it to be considered D, so I request Natu to drop to E.
 
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Merritt

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On a related note,
are definitely worthy of at least D Tier.; Electric-types are just that good especially in the later stretches of the game, Plusle and Minun being no exception.
Plusle and Minun are pretty bad. In terms of training them, you've basically got to do the Electrike grind to Spark for both of them, being stuck with Quick Attack off their bad attack prior. Once they get Spark they're kind of OK, but still not particularly good, failing to contribute in most major battles due to a lack of power and absolutely abysmal physical bulk. Thunderbolt helps them out after Norman but they're still by far the worst Electric-types at that point, lacking in power and bulk. In most if not all major battles at this point, if Minun/Plusle don't fight something either weak to Electric or just terrible in general (like Mightyena) they're at a disadvantage. They can get a hit off against Flannery and Norman before getting KOed at best, can contribute against Winona though they're certainly not taking on Altaria, have a poor at best matchup against Tate&Liza, and have an ok one against Sootopolis though they're unlikely to OHKO the bulkier Pokemon used.

In the E4 they can fight Sidney's Water but otherwise not much, lack the power to fight Phoebe, while they have an advantage over Glacia's Sealeo and Walrein the lack of SpA is very evident here so they likely can't take out all three, cannot hope to fight Drake, and can maybe take out one/two of Steven/Wallace's Pokemon at best again due to lack of power.

Plusle and Minun require an investment that's difficult to justify because the payoff is mediocre at best, so I don't support a rise to D.
 

Gulpin to C Tier.
Having used Gulpin recently I agree with most of this testimony, and would support a rise to C as well. Although my final moveset was SB/IB/Yawn/Body Slam compared to yours (I'd rather have sleep than Toxic personally), Gulpin was generally solid as a teammate overall. It comes early, sludge right away is nice, can tank some hits and even has some good gym matchups. Swalot is capable of 1v1 many Pokemon with its cool movepool. I would say it is a notch above the other poisons currently in D since it evolves much earlier than Koffing and Grimer, is able to actually take a hit unlike Seviper, and learns neat utility moves in Yawn and Amnesia. Although it can't learn TBolt (it only gets Shock Wave) or Flamethrower/Fire Blast, it gets Ice Beam instead so it doesn't lack in its attacking movepool either.

I think it's a borderline case, but Gulpin is a decent Pokemon with a nice movepool and can handle a lot of the game even with its middling power.


Most of it has been said by Fireburn already, but basically Torkoal gets points for its nicely tankish stats and especially its low TM reliance thanks to having one of the better level-up movepools in the game. Curse/Body Slam/Overheat/Flamethrower will serve Torkoal fine in routes, and I even gave Torkoal Earthquake over Body Slam in RS just so it can solo Phoebe (don't set up on Curse Dusclops duh) and Steven even easier. Unfortunately, Torkoal's stellar Steven matchup is offset by its uselessness against Wallace, though this is a tradeoff that shouldn't hold Torkoal back from rising to D Tier.
While I haven't used Torkoal myself, it looks much better on paper than what Ninetales did for me. Torkoal comes much earlier than Ninetales and has better attacking stats on both sides. Its speed is bad but it doesn't mind so much since it can utilize Curse and Amnesia. Plus, it can learn Body Slam through level up which is great so it acts as a mixed sweeper. As Fireburn says, Torkoal's use tanks after Winona before the sea routes, which is exactly when you get Ninetales.

I am still supporting a drop for Ninetales to E since having only fire and "coverage" (Iron Tail and Dig) is terrible at this point on in the game. At least Torkoal has earlier utility but at least can support itself off of setting up a Curse sweep or something.
 

Punchshroom

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Merritt that's just it though; being the worst Electric-types in the game still doesn't really put them on par with the rest of the E Tier imo. Plusle and Minun aren't powerful, but their power is still comparable to that of Raichu and Electrode, so it's not all bad for them. Like if Electrode can KO Wallace's Gyarados, Plusle/Minun should be able to as well. Not to mention the unfavorable lategame important matchups you say they have are also shared with their Electric-type brethren; The Electrics all KO Winona's mons bar Altaria, shaky matchup against Tate&Liza that is instantly patched up by Light Screen (so long as Claydol is removed from the picture), not do a whole lot against Sidney (unless Raichu really wants Brick Break somewhere), don't sweep Phoebe, only Magneton and arguably Manectric can take on all 3 of Glacia's seals, can't fight Drake, etc.... so you can't really fault Plusle and Minun there.

As overshadowed as the +/− rodents are, they still have one niche that can give them the edge in certain fights: Encore. This allows them to disrupt Tate&Liza's Calm Minding as well as the important Water-types using various annoying moves like Recover, Double Team, or Rest. In fact, the +/− rodents' additional support movepool could even allow them to greatly ease or even circumvent matchups, such as Fake Tears (somewhat) making up for Plusle's power, taking full advantage of Encore's disruption as well as help to evade Hyper Potion range, while Minun can spam Charm to potentially defeat Winona's Altaria 1v1 or even take on Norman's Slaking(s) if it is ambitious/fast enough.

Basically, they're outclassed but they're still not bad; they're fine enough on their own and even have their own unique tools to stand out amongst their brethren. Heck, I may even go so far as to say that Plusle and Minun are better investments than early Electrike (not saying much, but still saying they're better than E). That's more than I can say about this thing though
 
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