Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Seedot could maybe move up, but I think the sheer amount of exp you need to baby into it so that it’s actually able to contribute when given the Leaf Stone means it fits in better with E rank.
The thing is though, once Seedot evolves, which is pretty likely before/after Roxanne, it performs fine as a Nuzleaf. Gym matchups be damned, but Nuzleaf is able to hold its own against the common route mons, especially with Fake-Out softening (a bit better than Lobre can). Overall, I think Lombre and Nuzleaf belong in the same tier in the end, whether it is E or D. Neither one has positive matchups over the other and Nuzleaf even has the advantage of evolving early and possessing the Dark type, which the few number of threatening fighters/bugs proves useful. Ludicolo eventually gets Surf and Ice Beam, but Shiftry can take on almost Phoebe's entire team. This puts them on about equal footing in my eyes. Ludicolo gets the bulk and advantageous typing, but Shiftry gets the better offenses plus the role as a psychic killer.

EDIT: Your description of early Seedot seems overly exasperated, as switch training it before it gets Bullet Seed is really no big deal. After it gets that, there is not much difficulty in using it as a regular mon, plus Nature Power and evolution is on the horizon. I fought the three trainers I could on Route 116 (before Rusturf Tunnel) before facing Roxanne's gym, and it fared fine enough. I don't think that is totally unreasonable considering its short proximity to Rustboro. Again, it's not the most efficient Pokemon you could use, but that's why I'm arguing only for D-tier. It obviously has its drawbacks but Nuzleaf is an okay Pokemon to use. What E-tier says to me is that it is something that never pays off in the end, but Shiftry pays out in the lategame. I don't think it's less compelling than any of the other currently D-ranked Pokemon, and I don't think it's as bad as the similarly available Poochyena.

PS What do you think of Ninetales dropping?
 
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sin(pi)

lucky n bad
I'm honestly impressed by the fact that you posted two runs within 60 hours of each other. Stuff like this makes me feel like I'm the only one here who has a life outside of Pokemon.
lol don't flatter yourself

I did an Emerald run recently with a very similar team to Texas Cloverleaf (Breloom/Beautifly/Absol/Lanturn) and managed to find 14 Rare Candies, I think this is the maximum number you can get on a run without pickup.

Absol: Bolt/Beam/SBall/Slash (could be Return)
Beautifly: Aerial Ace/Giga Drain/Psychic/Silver Wind
Breloom: Bulk Up/Brick Break/Return/Mach Punch
Lanturn: Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Spark (last two moves are honestly filler for the most part, you can go with Twave if you like)

I agree with his nominations for 3 of those mons, Lanturn I think is a B tier mon though. Absol in particular surprised me with how good it was with boltbeam (it completely destroyed Winona and electric coverage was super useful until I got a Chinchou). Its biggest downside is that it's very reliant on TMs, but I was able to easily afford to buy 3 Game Corner TMs (BoltBeam, and Psychic for 'fly) more or less when I wanted them. Very solid mon, the TM reliance might be enough to keep it in C but it can also run SD/SBall/normal coverage/filler and I suspect this would do very well - I needed mine to be able to take on Winona, though.

Beautifly isn't an amazing Pokémon but it never really struggled on routes except very early game against Taillows (this was partly my fault for having a team of Flying-weak mons). I taught it Psychic as soon as I reached the game corner (I was about 10k off but you could probably get that by grinding against the route trainers and gym, since it's useless here anyway) and it became a monster for the next couple of routes - if it had been able to maintain this performance throughout I'd nominate it for B tier. One thing to note is that it performed less well against the second gym than I would have expected based on typing - Gust doesn't quite do enough to Makuhita after a couple of bulk ups and I was almost swept.

Breloom required a bit of babying when you first catch it, but it soon starts to hold its own. It becomes a wrecking ball as soon as it evolves if you reach it Bulk Up. I never taught mine Strength because I taught that to Marshtomp (fun fact - Marshtomp and Tropius learn all 8 HMs between them), and I wanted to save the moveslot for eventually Return which was 100% worth it. I also replaced Sky Uppercut with Brick Break because I hate missing (and let's be real BB is strong enough). Mach Punch is really useful in the last slot against the League; it notably finished off Salamence after it survived an Ice Beam.

Lanturn would be amazing if it came earlier. If you could catch it when you got Surf, it would be A rank without a shadow of a doubt. As it stands, you miss out on Flannery and Winona which would be two of the best matchups for it, and it comes underleveled (10-15 levels below that of your team). There are a bunch of easy grinding routes for it, but you do need to grind nonetheless - mind didn't catch up to the rest of my team until towards the end of Victory Road. Lanturn's performance is certainly impressive but it comes too late to justify an A rank imo.

tl;dr Breloom for S, Beautifly for D, Absol for B (C at a stretch), Lanturn for B.
 

Punchshroom

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Beautifly isn't an amazing Pokémon but it never really struggled on routes except very early game against Taillows (this was partly my fault for having a team of Flying-weak mons). I taught it Psychic as soon as I reached the game corner (I was about 10k off but you could probably get that by grinding against the route trainers and gym, since it's useless here anyway) and it became a monster for the next couple of routes - if it had been able to maintain this performance throughout I'd nominate it for B tier. One thing to note is that it performed less well against the second gym than I would have expected based on typing - Gust doesn't quite do enough to Makuhita after a couple of bulk ups and I was almost swept.
- As I kept mentioning countless times before: merely 'not struggling' on routes isn't anything to brag about, and if it does struggle on routes then it's grounds for a drop if anything else (Vulpix would be a good example of this that you yourself brought up).
- Well no duh just about anything that gets access to a 90 BP attack right around the Surf period is expected to do well in upcoming routes, except Beautifly isn't even a notable example since it doesn't get STAB on its power move, unlike the others. While the other mons that get their new powerful TMs/HMs become exceptional performers, Beautifly uses its TM just to play catch-up.
- Oh, and another thing: what exactly was your Beautifly doing before it got Psychic? All it has is Gust, unSTAB Secret Power, and Mega Drain for offense, which is underwhelming even for route-clearing standards, much less for important battles. I feel like the Beautifly advocaters never really touch upon this issue much, which should definitely be emphasized.
So far I've seen not a single compelling argument that warrants Beautifly to rise over the other E Ranks; literally all of those Pokemon (except Duskull) have better endgame potential regardless of how late they arrive, and Beautifly isn't exactly making splashes in any other matchup besides Brawly for its early availability to be of significant advantage.

I don't think Seedot is worth rising; its grinding period can't be overlooked, particularly early Seedot which is stuck with Bullet Seed for a significant while and makes for highly inefficient grinding. The level-up movepool is nothing to write home about either, with Faint Attack only available at a distant level 31, so you usually don't even have the option of evolving into Shiftry immediately upon obtaining the Leaf Stone unless Nuzleaf is slightly overleveled. It also suffers from not having much favorable matchups all the way until Tate&Liza (which Bobbery himself mentioned), which is ridiculously late from when you obtain it, meaning Nuzleaf is usually being benched in the majority of important fights until then. On the other hand, I can see Lotad/Lombre being justified for a drop. They share Seedot's issue of requiring an ungodly training period for lategame usefulness, but while Lombre has a better movepool and typing for greater Elite 4 matchups (ex: beating Glacia and Drake, not being as vulnerable to Steven's Metagross), it does not have access to the Water Stone until after Dive. This is a huge setback as you'll just be stuck with Lombre even into the Tate&Liza fight. With that said, Lotad/Lombre not only has a better Emerald Elite 4 matchup, but is also way easier to obtain than Seedot (to put it into perspective, Emerald Seedot/Nuzlead are rarer than Chimecho), so I'm personally a bit torn on whether to nominate Lotad to drop to E, though I'm leaning towards yes.

This Pokemon, on the other hand, I have no qualms with dropping:
D to E

This mon manages to suffer even worse issues than Seedot. Cacnea's biggest flaw is that it doesn't learn its good moves until significantly later, with Needle Arm being learned by Cacturne at level 41, at which point you should already be settling with the Giga Drain TM. Until then, it is stuck with a horrendous level-up movepool, and even its TM movepool doesn't do much to help. Even then, Cacturne is nothing to write home about, since it's slow, frail, and doesn't have high BP moves, which just outweigh the benefits its typing grants in certain matchups, and are issues that most certainly rear their ugly heads when trying to train up a Cacnea to begin with. Even Nuzleaf has slightly better route-clearing matchups thanks to Nature Power, and Shiftry at least has Chlorophyll + SunnyBeam for bursts in speed and power that Cacturne can only dream of.
 

Merritt

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I don't think Seedot is worth rising; its grinding period can't be overlooked, particularly early Seedot which is stuck with Bullet Seed for a significant while and makes for highly inefficient grinding. The level-up movepool is nothing to write home about either, with Faint Attack only available at a distant level 31, so you usually don't even have the option of evolving into Shiftry immediately upon obtaining the Leaf Stone unless Nuzleaf is slightly overleveled. It also suffers from not having much favorable matchups all the way until Tate&Liza (which Bobbery himself mentioned), which is ridiculously late from when you obtain it, meaning Nuzleaf is usually being benched in the majority of important fights until then. On the other hand, I can see Lotad/Lombre being justified for a drop. They share Seedot's issue of requiring an ungodly training period for lategame usefulness, but while Lombre has a better movepool and typing for greater Elite 4 matchups (ex: beating Glacia and Drake, not being as vulnerable to Steven's Metagross), it does not have access to the Water Stone until after Dive. This is a huge setback as you'll just be stuck with Lombre even into the Tate&Liza fight. With that said, Lotad/Lombre not only has a better Emerald Elite 4 matchup, but is also way easier to obtain than Seedot (to put it into perspective, Emerald Seedot/Nuzlead are rarer than Chimecho), so I'm personally a bit torn on whether to nominate Lotad to drop to E, though I'm leaning towards yes.
I see Lotad/Seedot comparisons pop up from time to time and usually there's a few things that I feel swing things in Lombre's favor over Nuzleaf. The main one is that Lombre's typing is just flat out more useful - it gives access to the incredibly useful Surf/Ice Beam combination after Norman, offers acceptable resistances, and yes means Lombre is a better HM slave than Nuzleaf - Lombre learns all but two HMs. They're both overwhelmingly mediocre but Lombre leaves the dead period very slightly earlier than Nuzleaf does because of Surf and Ice Beam. Shiftry is better than Lombre, but that honestly only really covers Tate&Liza and it's not as if Lombre is incapable of contributing there, surf spam is good no matter what game you're playing on.

Ludicolo is better than Shiftry. Full stop. It's got great coverage, good bulk, keeps supporting with HMs as needed, and just flat out has good matchups against most of the remaining game moreso than Shiftry - they both beat Sootopolis, Sidney, and Wallace about the same (although Ludicolo does it a little better) but while Shiftry has the better Phoebe matchup Ludicolo has the better Glacia and Drake matchup. I do think it's hard to deny that the Lotad line is generally better than the Seedot line and while the difference might not be massive, I do think that it's enough that they should be separated by a rank.
 
Why are you guys making a big deal over Seedot's grinding period when you can do this?
Shiftry can completely skip the Seedot stage and learn strength immediately if you get a Nuzleaf on Route 114. Seedot isn't something you would particularly need when battling Brawly or Wattson, so I'm pretty sure the Route 114 Nuzleaf is better than the early Seedot.
Is getting the early Seedot and then level grinding it really more preferable than getting the Route 114 Nuzleaf? Why?
On the other hand, I can see Lotad/Lombre being justified for a drop. They share Seedot's issue of requiring an ungodly training period for lategame usefulness, but while Lombre has a better movepool and typing for greater Elite 4 matchups (ex: beating Glacia and Drake, not being as vulnerable to Steven's Metagross), it does not have access to the Water Stone until after Dive. This is a huge setback as you'll just be stuck with Lombre even into the Tate&Liza fight. With that said, Lotad/Lombre not only has a better Emerald Elite 4 matchup, but is also way easier to obtain than Seedot (to put it into perspective, Emerald Seedot/Nuzlead are rarer than Chimecho), so I'm personally a bit torn on whether to nominate Lotad to drop to E, though I'm leaning towards yes.
Lombre can be caught before the 4th gym, and it can learn rock smash, strength, surf, dive, and waterfall. Are you putting it 2 tiers below Tropius just because it can't learn fly?

Slight nitpick: In Emerald, Seedot can be traded from an NPC in Rustboro City.
 

Merritt

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Why are you guys making a big deal over Seedot's grinding period when you can do this? Is getting the early Seedot and then level grinding it really more preferable than getting the Route 114 Nuzleaf? Why?
Because that does not skip the fact that you'll still need to grind it pretty heavily in order for it to keep up and not be overpowered even when it gets to the Shiftry stage. Meanwhile that does skip the fact that Seedot, after a good bit of grinding that's going to be necessary anyways, can take on Roxanne.

ALSO INGAME TRADE SEEDOT: REALLY BAD. Not only does it require catching a Ralts (which is already kind of rare) but it has 5/4/5/4/4/4 IVs aka heavily below average, is Relaxed meaning that kills Shiftry's good speed further, and can't contribute against Roxanne due to disobedience. The extra levels don't make up for this.
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
- As I kept mentioning countless times before: merely 'not struggling' on routes isn't anything to brag about, and if it does struggle on routes then it's grounds for a drop if anything else (Vulpix would be a good example of this that you yourself brought up).
- Well no duh just about anything that gets access to a 90 BP attack right around the Surf period is expected to do well in upcoming routes, except Beautifly isn't even a notable example since it doesn't get STAB on its power move, unlike the others. While the other mons that get their new powerful TMs/HMs become exceptional performers, Beautifly uses its TM just to play catch-up.
- Oh, and another thing: what exactly was your Beautifly doing before it got Psychic? All it has is Gust, unSTAB Secret Power, and Mega Drain for offense, which is underwhelming even for route-clearing standards, much less for important battles. I feel like the Beautifly advocaters never really touch upon this issue much, which should definitely be emphasized.
So far I've seen not a single compelling argument that warrants Beautifly to rise over the other E Ranks; literally all of those Pokemon (except Duskull) have better endgame potential regardless of how late they arrive, and Beautifly isn't exactly making splashes in any other matchup besides Brawly for its early availability to be of significant advantage.
- When I said it didn't struggle, I meant that I didn't notice the difference between it and any other member of my team - I never felt like I had to grind levels or that it wasn't pulling its weight on routes. I agree that this shouldn't be grounds for a rise but it's worth noting as "hey this mon isn't dogshit"
- It gets Psychic a full 2 (or 3) gyms before you get Surf, and I think this does qualify as significant. Yes, Beautifly isn't the best user of any of the 90BP moves, but I'm supporting a rise to D, not to A or B.
- It manages well enough with just those - I found Gust strong enough to OHKO or 2HKO most neutral targets at this point (stuff like Zubats) and Mega Drain is nice for things like Carvanha and Wailmer. Gust is also really neat against Rival's Grovyle though it's outperformed by Taillow here obviously. Beautifly is surprisingly bulky, so even if you don't OHKO you can generally take a lot of hits and heal up with Drain. Psychic also comes by the time you're around level 25 - which is still early/early-mid game in my eyes - so it's not exactly far away from the start.
You are correct that Beautifly doesn't really contribute to many major battles - it only really does well against the second, seventh and eighth gyms, but I found it invaluable for the Rival battles (especially the earlier ones) and it can also handle Gol/Crobats pretty well with Psychic, as well as Mightyena/Sharpedo with Silver Wind and/or Giga Drain.
I don't wanna come across as "hurr durr you haven't used this your opinion is irrelevant bow down before me" but it does sound like your opinion is more formed from theory - it's almost exactly how I thought things would go before I tried it. I'd urge people to try it out and come to their own conclusions (it's entirely possible I'm biased towards rises because I enjoyed using the mon)
 
- It gets Psychic a full 2 (or 3) gyms before you get Surf, and I think this does qualify as significant. Yes, Beautifly isn't the best user of any of the 90BP moves, but I'm supporting a rise to D, not to A or B.
I don't really have an opinion on Beautifly, but when exactly did you get Psychic? In my last run right after I beat Wattson I had around 45K pokemoney. Getting 70K for Psychic at that point seems unlikely unless maybe you sell every item and TM you don't use, or try your hands at the slots. I had over 90K after beating Norman so having enough money typically comes right around/slightly before Surf, not 2-3 gyms earlier, unless I'm missing something here. Playing the Game Corner to earn enough coins doesn't make much sense for an efficient run even though it sounds like Beautifly does benefit a lot from getting Psychic earlier.
 
- When I said it didn't struggle, I meant that I didn't notice the difference between it and any other member of my team - I never felt like I had to grind levels or that it wasn't pulling its weight on routes. I agree that this shouldn't be grounds for a rise but it's worth noting as "hey this mon isn't dogshit"
- It gets Psychic a full 2 (or 3) gyms before you get Surf, and I think this does qualify as significant. Yes, Beautifly isn't the best user of any of the 90BP moves, but I'm supporting a rise to D, not to A or B.
- It manages well enough with just those - I found Gust strong enough to OHKO or 2HKO most neutral targets at this point (stuff like Zubats) and Mega Drain is nice for things like Carvanha and Wailmer. Gust is also really neat against Rival's Grovyle though it's outperformed by Taillow here obviously. Beautifly is surprisingly bulky, so even if you don't OHKO you can generally take a lot of hits and heal up with Drain. Psychic also comes by the time you're around level 25 - which is still early/early-mid game in my eyes - so it's not exactly far away from the start.
You are correct that Beautifly doesn't really contribute to many major battles - it only really does well against the second, seventh and eighth gyms, but I found it invaluable for the Rival battles (especially the earlier ones) and it can also handle Gol/Crobats pretty well with Psychic, as well as Mightyena/Sharpedo with Silver Wind and/or Giga Drain.
I don't wanna come across as "hurr durr you haven't used this your opinion is irrelevant bow down before me" but it does sound like your opinion is more formed from theory - it's almost exactly how I thought things would go before I tried it. I'd urge people to try it out and come to their own conclusions (it's entirely possible I'm biased towards rises because I enjoyed using the mon)
^^^^^^


Also lombre is literally ass and ludicolo can never justify using this garbage excuse for a mon
 
Beautifly is surprisingly bulky
Kinda reiterating what I’ve already said, but this, along with my failure to teach it Secret Power (which is admittedly pretty important), is where my experience seems to diverge from those who support a rise to D. I’d understand if you were talking about taking advantage of its resistances, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you mean.

Personally, I just found Beautifly to be absurdly frail, struggling to take more than one neutral hit from anything even remotely strong. This fits with the on-paper analysis, since with 60/50/50 defensive stats it has the 10th worst defensive BST of all fully evolved mons in the RSE National Dex, after Shedinja, Deoxys-Attack, Delibird, Smeargle, Unown, Ditto, Deoxys, Dugtrio and Ninjask.

(Before people question it, I do think it’s valid to equate defensive BST with overall bulk when you’re looking at the lower end of the spectrum, since there isn’t much room for weird HP vs Def/Sp.Def extremes like Shuckle or lopsided physical/special bulk like Blissey)

Maybe I’ve only ever raised Beautifly with terrible IVs or something, and a rise to D is actually warranted. Based on my own experiences, however, I can’t wrap my head around the idea that Beautifly could be ‘surprisingly bulky’, unless literally every Pokémon is ‘surprisingly bulky’.
 
Beautifly's bulk should definitely be contextualized to "it's surprisingly bulky when it needs to be", i.e. when it's reliant on Gust and Mega Drain (it doesn't need secret power gust is enough). Between the points of evolution up to approximately Norman Beautifly was consistently at or among the tankiest members of the team not being 2HKOed by most things, being able to outspeed and Mega Drain if it was at risk, and 1 or 2HKO in return. At the point in which it's bulk started to fall off it received Morning Sun to compensate and by the time it's bulk fell off to irrelevancy its move pool had caught to where it was able to pick it's matchups for OHKOs, i.e. vs the aqua/magma teams.

So when we say "surprisingly bulky" we mean exactly that, it outperformed the expectation s you would have for it on raw stats alone based on the combination of the timing of it's bulk power spikes and the timing of its move pool accommodations.

Edit: Beautifly effectively acts as a tank for the first half of the game and then switches roles to a glass cannon for the second half
 
Yeah I guess that mostly makes sense. I think my opinions on bulk in general might be influenced by the fact that I always play on Set, which doesn’t seem to be a common choice? Could be wrong about that, so please correct me if you’re also playing on Set and I’m just talking out of my ass.

Not being able to switch freely between KOs makes it much harder to pick your battles and exposes Beautifly’s weaknesses much more, especially since these lists don’t assume that readers know which specific Pokémon are used by random route Trainers. I can see how Beautifly could act as a sniper for specific targets if you can bring it in for free.
 

Punchshroom

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- It gets Psychic a full 2 (or 3) gyms before you get Surf, and I think this does qualify as significant. Yes, Beautifly isn't the best user of any of the 90BP moves, but I'm supporting a rise to D, not to A or B.
You know what's also significant? Getting all the necessary resources to grind up for cash to even get the TM at this point in the game. You cannot tell me that you haven't been consciously minmaxing everything such as selling literally everything not pinned down until you have just enough to get by, fighting literally every available trainer, including off-beaten paths like the Trick House, or even getting insanely lucky with the amount of sellable goodies Zigzagoon may pick up for you. Any Pokemon that learns the Game Corner TMs would benefit massively from this kind of intensive, out-of-the-way resource management, so this is not a point for Beautifly at all.

Edit: Beautifly effectively acts as a tank for the first half of the game and then switches roles to a glass cannon for the second half
Yeah glass "cannon" would be giving too much credit; a more apt description would be glass "slingshot", in that it can do decent damage if it gets an accurate shot a favorable matchup, but it just flops if it's fighting any other important batte. Literally the only two fights where Beautifly provides significant contribution are Brawly and the 2nd Rival fight (Sidney doesn't count since Beautifly doesn't even cleansweep reliably against Sharpedo + Absol, especially in Emerald, and Sidney is an easy opponent to cleansweep without much healing items, much less X-items). Beautifly acting as a 'tank' is also hiding the fact that it's just resorting to finishing off things with Mega Drain after whatever it faces survives its main attacks. Like, a tank shouldn't be resorting to tanking against route fodder, and it especially won't be functioning much as a tank in pretty much every big matchup after 2nd Rival.

Welp, after making so many suggestions to drop mons, perhaps it's time I finally nominated something to rise:
E to D

The first thing I want to address is Pikachu's late availability. Honestly it's not that bad, since it comes just in time to fight Winona and is only 2 (albeit very long) routes after Route 118 Electrike. Just like Electrike, Pikachu becomes immediately usable after obtaining it. The level 27 variant already comes with Thunderbolt, while the level 25 one still has Thunder Wave and can easily be Rare Candied, so it's pretty win-win either way. Oh yeah, this thing saves up on the Thunderbolt TM so something else can appreciate its coverage. You can then evolve it with the Thunderstone from New Mauville and instantly put in work against most of the Route 120 trainers you dodged trying to reach Pikachu. From there it functions as a lesser Manectric which is still pretty good, and it has better neutral options than Mane such as Strength (also HM utility, obviously) and even Brick Break for marginally better E4 matchups (such as Cradily and Light Screen Glalie), though these are merely "might as well" sort of attacks. If you somehow managed to get your hands on a Light Ball Pikachu it would further justify the rise, but this is impractical and/or unlikely so I won't be considering it.

The reason I consider Pikachu to be better than Plusle and Minun highlights what I think about the disparity between mid-game Electrike and early Electrike. Pikachu functions much like mid-game Electrike in that it's useful right away upon capture, while Plusle and Minun have to endure the slow grind like early Electrike to even get their STAB and don't have much favorable matchups in between.

Hariyama [B -> A]
Slugma [E -> F]
Numel [B -> C]
Spoink [C -> B]
Heracross [C -> B]
Meditite [D -> C]
Baltoy [E -> D]
Shroomish [A -> S]
Absol [D -> C/B]
Swablu [C or D]
Chinchou [D -> B]
Anorith [D -> E]
Nincada [E -> F]
Beautifly [E -> D]
Taillow [A to B]
Spheal [D to C]
Duskull
[E -> F]
Seedot
[E -> D]
Vulpix [D -> E]
Cacnea [D ->E]
Pikachu
[E -> D]
Merritt updated recap btw
 
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Punchshroom I don't understand why you're so aggro about this. The arguments we're presenting are pretty rational and straightforward and you're responding with the most sensationalized attacks against this nomination and it makes me question both if you've ever used Beautifly and also what tactics you use in game if you think "resorting to finishing things off with mega drain to stay healthy" is either an accurate depiction of Beautifly's performance or a reasonable way to proceed through a game.

I'm not overselling Beautifly here. E tier is for bad mons, F tier is for garbage. Beautifly isn't garbage, and it isn't bad, it is a perfectly passable member of an average team.

I question how you can support Swablu staying above D tier too considering your stance on tanking when Beautifly, even through the Altaria phase up until Dragon Dance, is for the majority of the time faster, stronger, has better coverage, and is similarly bulky, particularly when Swablu/Altaria has no functional type coverage and therefore will be 2HKOing everything as opposed to Beautifly which can often OHKO.

This seems like a very weird hill to die on that you seem to feel so strongly about and I'd encourage you to run a playthrough with it and see if your opinions change, as mine did with Breloom.

Edit: also we need to let the game corner TM narrative die, it's been pretty clearly established that you can get one game corner TM between Watson and Norman and three by Lilycove without having to min/max under the simply assumption that you sell stuff you don't need (and which takes up bag space if you don't - I was actively selling stuff by Mossdeep because I couldn't pick up new things) and aren't buying frivolously (i.e. pokeballs which you don't need if you know your team in advance, extraneous status healing items, x items, etc)
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Punchshroom I don't understand why you're so aggro about this. The arguments we're presenting are pretty rational and straightforward and you're responding with the most sensationalized attacks against this nomination and it makes me question both if you've ever used Beautifly and also what tactics you use in game if you think "resorting to finishing things off with mega drain to stay healthy" is either an accurate depiction of Beautifly's performance or a reasonable way to proceed through a game.
Yeah I've just started a run at least a week ago (which is part of the reason of my flooding of nominations recently), and just for the sake of seeing what the buzz is about I decided to use Beautifly, and it is every bit as bad as I expected, being extremely unremarkable at best. Bar Mega Drain vs Geodudes, it can't OHKO for shit and is forced to constantly trade blows/get statused by just about everything, while its mediocre bulk and power don't even leave much room for X item cheesing. The Psychic TM helped just a little, but nowhere near enough to dissuade my opinion since the issues persisted. I couldn't roll my eyes further back when you guys started talking about Beautifly as being some sort of "tank". Yeah, a tank for route fodder that is, which isn't anything anyone needs.

I'm not overselling Beautifly here. E tier is for bad mons, F tier is for garbage. Beautifly isn't garbage, and it isn't bad, it is a perfectly passable member of an average team.
I cannot see Beautifly being that much better than E Tier, much less perform on par with the D Tiers, to warrant the rise. In fact, I probably overestimated this mon's route clearing efficiency going by your praise of it, and it doesn't even perform that well in that role, much less contribute in important matchups. Honestly, the reason Beautifly even performed as semi-adequately on my recent run as it did is because I was also using hot trash in Slugma and Duskull.

I question how you can support Swablu staying above D tier too
Altaria [C or D] Leaning on D
Yeah the Swablu stage is an absolute chore and gives me more "Baltoy vibes". I don't think its access to Dragon Dance is even enough to fully compensate for that either, since it'd likely take several boosts to start clean sweeping opponents, unlike most other boosters which have superior power, STABs, and perhaps even coverage, not to mention the bulky boosters can increase their defenses to as to require less/no healing items.
Reasoning for mildly considering Swablu to stay in C upcoming:

considering your stance on tanking when Beautifly, even through the Altaria phase up until Dragon Dance, is for the majority of the time faster, stronger, has better coverage, and is similarly bulky, particularly when Swablu/Altaria has no functional type coverage and therefore will be 2HKOing everything as opposed to Beautifly which can often OHKO.
Dude, Altaria boosts while it tanks, whereas Beautifly throws out weak unboosted hits. One merely 1v1s things (questionably), while the other can at the very least threaten a sweep, even if it can take a while.
Also, dafuq?
- No functional coverage? Beautifly is stuck with 60-70 BP attacks until level 30+, while Swablu immediately has access to STAB Secret Power and gets both Return and Fly sooner before Beautifly gets Psychic and its stronger STABs, respectively. Altaria then gets access to Ice Beam and Earthquake which are significant for the E4, while all Beautifly has to show is Giga Drain which is useful for literally one target in Wallace's Whiscash (also meaning Beautifly's E4 presence in RS is limited to beating Sidney whose Absol at least doesn't have Rock Slide, but Sidney is not a hard E4 member).
- Swablu's STAB Secret Power is pretty much just as strong as Beautifly's unSTAB Secret Power (both of which are their strongest attacks for a while), so I have absolutely no idea what you're on about when you say Beautifly is constantly nabbing OHKOes (mine doesn't even do this at all) that Swablu couldn't. At this point, I'm very willing to believe that you Beautifly supporters somehow managed to coincidentally get freakishly high IVed ones while I got stuck with an average one that didn't even live up to my already low expectations.
 
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Well in that case I think you're completely wrong lol

Agree to disagree and let Merritt arbitrate

Also tfw literally state normal type moves as functional coverage. Coverage is SE stuff that can be used for OHKOs my friend

As far as IVs are concerned who knows. I posted my stays though so you're free to make inferences based on approximate ev ranges
 
Probably worth mentioning that I know that you and I do have some pretty fundamental differences in how we play/perceive the game give your appreciation of the value of X Items and my appreciation of them as hot garbage

Edit: that is to say that you place considerably higher value on set up moves and sweeping whereas I place considerably higher value on type coverage based 1/2HKOs, my personal opinion being g that most stat ups are inherently inefficient for in game runs
 
Also tfw literally state normal type moves as functional coverage. Coverage is SE stuff that can be used for OHKOs my friend
I would like to jump in and say that for in-game runs, I’m pretty sure we use a slightly different definition for ‘coverage’. Neutral ‘coverage’ is still valuable, especially in the earlier games where lots of Pokémon just don’t have access to many varied move options without breeding or tutoring. Plus, it’s so easy to overwhelm most opposing Pokémon with neutral attacks because of the advantages you often have in terms of EVs/IVs/level/badge boosts.

For example, the difference between Breloom with just its STAB(s) and Breloom with STABs plus Headbutt/Strength is huge, even though its Normal attacks don’t get any super effective hits.

Probably worth mentioning that I know that you and I do have some pretty fundamental differences in how we play/perceive the game give your appreciation of the value of X Items and my appreciation of them as hot garbage
Have you tried using them? Although I never use X items in a typical playthrough, on the few occasions I’ve tried them out I’ve definitely been able to appreciate their potency. If you’ve given them a go, then sure, it’s just a difference of opinion; if you haven’t though, then isn’t it a bit rich to be immediately dismissing them as garbage?

Edit: Oops did a weird double post
 
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I would like to jump in and say that for in-game runs, I’m pretty sure we use a slightly different definition for ‘coverage’. Neutral ‘coverage’ is still valuable, especially in the earlier games where lots of Pokémon just don’t have access to many varied move options without breeding or tutoring. Plus, it’s so easy to overwhelm most opposing Pokémon with neutral attacks because of the advantages you often have in terms of EVs/IVs/level/badge boosts.

For example, the difference between Breloom with just its STAB(s) and Breloom with STABs plus Headbutt/Strength is huge, even though its Normal attacks don’t get any super effective hits.



Have you tried using them? Although I never use X items in a typical playthrough, on the few occasions I’ve tried them out I’ve definitely been able to appreciate their potency. If you’ve given them a go, then sure, it’s just a difference of opinion; if you haven’t though, then isn’t it a bit rich to be immediately dismissing them as garbage?

Edit: Oops did a weird double post
No the point is that he's dismissing Beautifly's type coverage which allows it to OHKO some opponents while simultaneously promoting Normal type coverage on Swablu which is clearly established as being incapable of OHKOing things. It's a nonsensical argument.

I need you to read more closely, I wasn't dismissing the efficacy of X-Items, but the efficiency. I think the items are balls because they are inherently inefficient, they cost resources to purchase, resources in action economy to use them, and resources in the recovery cost associated with healing off whatever attack you took while boosting. As someone who values type coverage for the 1/2HKOs they yield, X-items are the antithesis of my optimal runs. I more than acknowledge that for someone like Punchshroom who values the capacity to make any given Pokemon able to sweep they have some value in that regard and in my summaries of my runs I specifically noted areas where X-Speed would have allowed Breloom to clean sweep Drake and Glacia, but I don't personally think they should be an impactful part of tiering in-game effectiveness.
 
No the point is that he's dismissing Beautifly's type coverage which allows it to OHKO some opponents while simultaneously promoting Normal type coverage on Swablu which is clearly established as being incapable of OHKOing things. It's a nonsensical argument.
I was specifically referring to the part of your post where you said that ‘Normal coverage’ was an oxymoron because Normal moves don’t hit anything super effectively. I made no mention of how that compares to Beautifly’s super effective coverage options, just that I think Normal moves, considered in isolation, function as coverage.

I need you to read more closely, I wasn't dismissing the efficacy of X-Items, but the efficiency. I think the items are balls because they are inherently inefficient, they cost resources to purchase, resources in action economy to use them, and resources in the recovery cost associated with healing off whatever attack you took while boosting. As someone who values type coverage for the 1/2HKOs they yield, X-items are the antithesis of my optimal runs. I more than acknowledge that for someone like Punchshroom who values the capacity to make any given Pokemon able to sweep they have some value in that regard and in my summaries of my runs I specifically noted areas where X-Speed would have allowed Breloom to clean sweep Drake and Glacia, but I don't personally think they should be an impactful part of tiering in-game effectiveness.
Honestly I didn’t even consider that someone would really question the efficiency of X items without also questioning their efficacy. The ‘taking up a turn’ and ‘exposing yourself to damage you then need to heal’ concerns don’t really make sense: the whole point of X items is that, if used judiciously, they allow you to overcome opponents you otherwise wouldn’t be able to beat at all, or, as you yourself acknowledged, allow you to set up on a lead and then sweep. This strategy allows you to skip having to repeatedly heal yourself as each subsequent Pokémon wears you down. If it were possible to win a given battle without taking damage, you wouldn’t be using X items, so avoiding their use shouldn’t be saving you any Potions.

Clearly, if used in the appropriate situation, they’re more efficient. I don’t think it’s a very fun way to play, personally (in fact, it makes it so trivial to cheese certain opponents who are otherwise quite threatening that I think X items are kinda OP), but it’s undoubtedly efficient.

Money concerns are maybe valid early on, but only if you want to buy a Game Corner TM. Lategame you’ve got more money than you can reasonably spend anyway. Besides, you find a fair few X items throughout the game for free and they’re not really that expensive (21,000 for 10 of each of the five main stat-boosters, which is probably overkill).

I can’t believe I’m spending so much time defending items I don’t even use haha.

Edit: wait I had a thought. Are you comparing a Pokémon that needs X items to succeed with a Pokémon that can sweep without X items? Because obviously yes, the latter is more efficient, but that’s not a fair assessment of the items themselves.
 
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I was specifically referring to the part of your post where you said that ‘Normal coverage’ was an oxymoron because Normal moves don’t hit anything super effectively. I made no mention of how that compares to Beautifly’s super effective coverage options, just that I think Normal moves, considered in isolation, function as coverage.



Honestly I didn’t even consider that someone would really question the efficiency of X items without also questioning their efficacy. The ‘taking up a turn’ and ‘exposing yourself to damage you then need to heal’ concerns don’t really make sense: the whole point of X items is that, if used judiciously, they allow you to overcome opponents you otherwise wouldn’t be able to beat at all, or, as you yourself acknowledged, allow you to set up on a lead and then sweep. This strategy allows you to skip having to repeatedly heal yourself as each subsequent Pokémon wears you down. If it were possible to win a given battle without taking damage, you wouldn’t be using X items, so avoiding their use shouldn’t be saving you any Potions.

Clearly, if used in the appropriate situation, they’re more efficient. I don’t think it’s a very fun way to play, personally (in fact, it makes it so trivial to cheese certain opponents who are otherwise quite threatening that I think X items are kinda OP), but it’s undoubtedly efficient.

Money concerns are maybe valid early on, but only if you want to buy a Game Corner TM. Lategame you’ve got more money than you can reasonably spend anyway. Besides, you find a fair few X items throughout the game for free and they’re not really that expensive (21,000 for 10 of each of the five main stat-boosters, which is probably overkill).

I can’t believe I’m spending so much time defending items I don’t even use haha.
No, man, I'm not talking about anything you said, you're questioning my questioning of punchshroom use of normal type moves as an example of coverage, there is nowhere for this to go.

And I totally agree x items are incredibly boring and unfun on top of being inefficient
 

Colonel M

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Eh I could argue Beautifly D myself. It has Absorb for Roxanne and can do okay vs Geodudes and has Gust for Brawley. Beyond that Beautifly lacks any great usage other than using powders to support the team and maybe clearing Rock- and Water-types in some situations. I think it's better than some Pokemon like Baltoy who joins kind of at an awkward time of the game where its typing only really helps against... Tate and Liza at best. The big problem is Wurmple and Silcoon need some grinding so I buy why they can be seen as E but they have just enough small utility to rise to D. I wouldn't use this thing too far in the game though - there's so much better Pokemon and as sin(pi) said Beautifly can even be a liability in its better matchups.

Also why tf are we mocking X Items aka every speed runners tool again lmao. They're efficient please stop this nonsense that they aren't. Boring and unfun? Okay, maybe fair but they also allow for smaller teams to function more effectively with less grinding. Inefficient? Fuck no.

Also Swablu is actually fucking terrible. Dragon Dance does not redeem that it's a steaming pile of shit until it evolves. This thing should almost be E. D at the very least. I can go into more detail myself later. 40 Base Attack until Level 35 and no early gym advantage / Team Magma Aqua advantages. It's also in the Erratic growth which is godawful until near Level 50s. Do I really need to say anything else?
 
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Punchshroom

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Also tfw literally state normal type moves as functional coverage. Coverage is SE stuff that can be used for OHKOs my friend
Even if I misinterpreted your meaning, that still doesn't change the fact that literally the only other coverage move Beautifly has over Swablu for a good while is Mega Drain. Also Beautifly can't OHKO anything that isn't 4x Grass weak or is super frail & 2x weak to STAB like Roselia or w/e; Beautifly is still 2HKOing the majority of things much like Swablu would.

I think it's better than some Pokemon like Baltoy who joins kind of at an awkward time of the game where its typing only really helps against... Tate and Liza at best. The big problem is Wurmple and Silcoon need some grinding so I buy why they can be seen as E but they have just enough small utility to rise to D. I wouldn't use this thing too far in the game though - there's so much better Pokemon and as sin(pi) said Beautifly can even be a liability in its better matchups.
Meanwhile Beautifly is only really an asset against Brawly and Rival 2, after which it does become a liabitlity in all matchups bar lol Sidney. Baltoy is a slog to train up but at the very least it has a noteworthy decent/good matchup against Drake and Steven.

Also Swablu is actually fucking terrible. Dragon Dance does not redeem that it's a steaming pile of shit until it evolves. This thing should almost be E. D at the very least. I can go into more detail myself later. 40 Base Attack until Level 35 and no early gym advantage / Team Magma Aqua advantages. It's also in the Erratic growth which is godawful until near Level 50s. Do I really need to say anything else?
I find Swablu's performance to be pretty much on par with Beautifly for a good portion of the game; 40 base Attack with item-boosted 70 BP STAB is still plenty workable compared to whatever Beautifly is settling with before level 30+. The Return TM also helps and comes way sooner for Swablu than Beautifly's coveted attacks. Also now that I think about it, if you guys are willing to expend most of your cash to get the Psychic TM after the Norman fight, you could probably cough up a bit more for one of the elemental beams. Buying Ice Beam for Swablu would be very significant as it allows it to breeze through the tall grass routes and most importantly contribute against Winona, which is the kind of value I expect out of a TM that I have to burn through my resources to get, rather than simply giving Beautifly Psychic just to keep up. Not to mention Altaria can actually start doing things in the E4 while Beautifly can barely 1v1 anything there.

But alright, let's say all your arguments about Beautifly rising to D somehow pay off (even though I don't think Beautifly even fits that description at all). In the event that happens, I have a couple of suggestions to go along with it (in addition to the prior recapped ones) to better reflect the rankings:
Gulpin to C
Pikachu to C
Girafarig to C
Pinsir to C
Lunatone to C
Plusle to D
Minun to D
Snorunt to D
Torkoal to D
Wurmple (Dustox) to D
This is just my stance regarding Beautifly's position amongst the D Ranks and E Ranks, though I'd be happy to offer more detailed explanations on each.
 
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Colonel M

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Meanwhile Beautifly is only really an asset against Brawly and Rival 2, after which it does become a liabitlity in all matchups bar lol Sidney. Baltoy is a slog to train up but at the very least it has a noteworthy decent/good matchup against Drake and Steven.
Why would I ever use Beautifly beyond a certain point? I think you're grossly misreading what I am saying. Beautifly is there for earlygame shenanigans when the party lacks better options. If you start Torchic Beautifly is an okay middle ground for Roxanne and Brawly. It has okay enough matchups against some Geodudes and the like to at least be useful for a little while longer. I would say it should be boxed by Flannery at the latest. I wouldn't teach a shit mon a valuable move like Psychic when I can teach it to something else. It's an option, but trying to make Beautifly useful by Flannery is bad.

My argument, however, is not even close to based on Beautifly throughout the entire game, but focuses on its performance earlygame that has a small enough opportunity cost to be worthwhile and can be benched later for better or more versatile Pokemon. Not sure why the meme of carrying Beautifly beyond Flannery even exists, but focusing on when it is at least performing positive contributions is where I am at.

For the portions I have mentioned Beautifly does fine for those. It has uses for taking on some of the more troubling types to get over for some trainers without being a major burden. Is it a burden beyond Flannery? Definitely. Does that mean D Rank is impossible for it? Absolutely not.
I find Swablu's performance to be pretty much on par with Beautifly for a good portion of the game; 40 base Attack with item-boosted 70 BP STAB is still plenty workable compared to whatever Beautifly is settling with before level 30+. The Return TM also helps and comes way sooner for Swablu than Beautifly's coveted attacks. Also now that I think about it, if you guys are willing to expend most of your cash to get the Psychic TM after the Norman fight, you could probably cough up a bit more for one of the elemental beams. Buying Ice Beam for Swablu would be very significant as it allows it to breeze through the tall grass routes and most importantly contribute against Winona, which is the kind of value I expect out of a TM that I have to burn through my resources to get, rather than simply giving Beautifly Psychic just to keep up. Not to mention Altaria can actually start doing things in the E4 while Beautifly can barely 1v1 anything there.
By the time you catch Swablu Beautifly is starting to show a lot of weaknesses. Being comparable to Beautifly offensively at that point isn't good. By the time Swablu joins there are a larger variety of options for trainers to choose, and some will choose wincons for certain gym matchups to make it easier to use their smaller team. Look at some of the C rank Pokemon at the moment. Geodude is easily outperforming Swablu by this point and won't slow down until after you face Winona, Machop at least can handle Norman to some extent, etc.

For Swablu to succeed:

- It needs to grind a lot harder than Beautifly who at least makes some net positive contributions.
- Has to reach Altaria with an ERRATIC growth rate - one of the worst growth rates in the game for in-game.
- Relies on STAB Secret Power to match Beautifly un-STAB Secret Power which is pathetic. Every fucking Normal-type easily outdamages Swablu and has access to other perks (Linoone, Zangoose, Tailow) While not being a detriment to the team.
- Even joking about putting Ice Beam on Altaria is awful. There are so many Water-types that can use Ice Beam much more effectively. Examples include - Starmie, Lanturn, Walrein, Swampert... The list goes on.
- Altaria is still really shit in the E4. Contrary to popular belief Altaria is not Gyarados in terms of bulk. Sydney's Mightyena, Iirc, has Roar. Already not setting up here, and there's almost no need if you have a good Fighting-type like Medicham. It's okay ish against Phoebe but Pressure is going to eat at your moves PP a bit. Don't get me started on Drake and Glacia. Unless you have Taunt you're going to have a rough time DDing the E4. Which it can't learn.

Nothing about Altaria impresses me and your arguments fail to sway me towards it. While STAB Secret Power makes its offense tolerable at best, it still makes it look awful when you can barely beat out a base 70 Atk Pokemon that's using your move un-STABbed.
But alright, let's say all your arguments about Beautifly rising to D somehow pay off (even though I don't think Beautifly even fits that description at all). In the event that happens, I have a couple of suggestions to go along with it (in addition to the prior recapped ones) to better reflect the rankings:This is just my stance regarding Beautifly's position amongst the D Ranks and E Ranks, though I'd be happy to offer more detailed explanations on each.
Even though this reeks of borderline strawman, I'll humor you:

- Gulpin has no real advantages throughout the game barring Poison-type moves and maybe Fire Blast. Comparing Gulpin to fucking Geodude is an insult to Geodude.
- Pikachu relies on Light Ball and only gains benefit from Thunderbolt. While it works against Wallace I guess, Aqua, and somewhat Glacia, it kind of needs some extra babying to get there. I would actually humor this one.
- Girafarig comes way too late, has no gym advantage, and can't get a high base powered Return until late in the game. Also has dicey moments against Magma and Aqua since there's Dark-types. I guess at least Carvanha is so frail it can maybe net a Ohko with Secret Power.
- Pinsir has nothing noteworthy to add to a team other than "it hits hard with non STAB". Are we even trying with these nominations? Swords Dance is way too late.
- Lunatone? Well it has two decent ish matchups. Doesn't really excel otherwise. Eh.
- Plusle/Minun at D is...hard. Spark is a bit later than I want it to be. Would say pass.
- Snorunt is only tolerable for Drake. Hell. No.
- Torkoal is way too fucking slow and lacks perks other Fire-types like Numel have. It doesn't even compare to Beautifly since Torkoal has literally 0 good gym matchups and even worse against Team Aqua Magma.
- No to Dustox. It has a worse match-up pool than Beautifly (a lot worse) and Toxic shenanigans are way too late to matter (if it learned Toxic at Lv 25 you could maybe make a shitty argument of being useful vs Norman. Or use a real Pokemon).
 
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