BH Balanced Hackmons

[MAMP]

Can Weavile work in BH? Like, maybe Refrigerate or Adaptability as its ability?

weavile looks decent on paper because ice/dark is a really cool offensive typing and it's reasonably fast, but unfortunately it falls short in a few pretty important ways. the first is that it doesn't hit very hard. balanced hackmons is a pretty bulky metagame, and weavile has a somewhat subpar 120 base attack and lacks any high base power stab options, meaning it just doesn't hit very hard. this means that it is often outclassed by other ice and dark-types like mega tyranitar and kyurem-black, which have a lot more power behind their attacks. weavile has the advantage over these mons of being a lot faster, but it falls just short of the pokemon that it really wants to outspeed, like mega gengar and the mega mewtwos. weavile is also extremely frail and weak to a lot of common attacking types, like steel, fairy, fighting, and bug. overall, weavile can't take hits, doesn't hit particularly hard itself, and isn't quite fast enough to make up for it. i'd love it if weavile were good because i think its typing is really interesting, but it's let down by its mediocre stats at every turn and is generally just outclassed by other pokemon in the tier.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

weavile looks decent on paper because ice/dark is a really cool offensive typing and it's reasonably fast, but unfortunately it falls short in a few pretty important ways. the first is that it doesn't hit very hard. balanced hackmons is a pretty bulky metagame, and weavile has a somewhat subpar 120 base attack and lacks any high base power stab options, meaning it just doesn't hit very hard. this means that it is often outclassed by other ice and dark-types like mega tyranitar and kyurem-black, which have a lot more power behind their attacks. weavile has the advantage over these mons of being a lot faster, but it falls just short of the pokemon that it really wants to outspeed, like mega gengar and the mega mewtwos. weavile is also extremely frail and weak to a lot of common attacking types, like steel, fairy, fighting, and bug. overall, weavile can't take hits, doesn't hit particularly hard itself, and isn't quite fast enough to make up for it. i'd love it if weavile were good because i think its typing is really interesting, but it's let down by its mediocre stats at every turn and is generally just outclassed by other pokemon in the tier.

Man. That really sucks.

How is Marshadow in here?

 

[xapx]

How is Marshadow in here?

As much as I love Marshadow, it's unfortunate to tell you that Marshadow isn't viable in BH. In Uber, it has a truly unresisted STAB, great moves, and a great ability. However, like MAMP said, BH is a bulky metagame. Marshadow has subpar 120 Attack and not enough speed to outspeed common threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Y and Mega Gengar. It's signature move is also available to all other Pokemon, so stealing stat boosts isn't much to be proud of in this tier.

Bulk-wise, Marshadow has only decent bulk and not enough firepower to back it up. Stuff like MMX and Pheromosa do more damage, whereas MegaTar or MGyara have simply more bulk to use PH setup.

tl;dr Marsh is pretty much outclassed in all aspects and shouldn't be used in BH. It would the only physical Ghost-type attacker tho.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

As much as I love Marshadow, it's unfortunate to tell you that Marshadow isn't viable in BH. In Uber, it has a truly unresisted STAB, great moves, and a great ability. However, like MAMP said, BH is a bulky metagame. Marshadow has subpar 120 Attack and not enough speed to outspeed common threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Y and Mega Gengar. It's signature move is also available to all other Pokemon, so stealing stat boosts isn't much to be proud of in this tier.

Bulk-wise, Marshadow has only decent bulk and not enough firepower to back it up. Stuff like MMX and Pheromosa do more damage, whereas MegaTar or MGyara have simply more bulk to use PH setup.

tl;dr Marsh is pretty much outclassed in all aspects and shouldn't be used in BH. It would the only physical Ghost-type attacker tho.

Oof, poor marshmellow. At least it can beat up all those legendaries in Ubers.

How does offense work here? Im not a fan of stall.

 

[a loser]

As much as I love Marshadow, it's unfortunate to tell you that Marshadow isn't viable in BH. In Uber, it has a truly unresisted STAB, great moves, and a great ability. However, like MAMP said, BH is a bulky metagame. Marshadow has subpar 120 Attack and not enough speed to outspeed common threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Y and Mega Gengar. It's signature move is also available to all other Pokemon, so stealing stat boosts isn't much to be proud of in this tier.

Bulk-wise, Marshadow has only decent bulk and not enough firepower to back it up. Stuff like MMX and Pheromosa do more damage, whereas MegaTar or MGyara have simply more bulk to use PH setup.

tl;dr Marsh is pretty much outclassed in all aspects and shouldn't be used in BH. It would the only physical Ghost-type attacker tho.

Quick correction: Mega Banette outclasses Marshadow as a physical Ghost-type attacker. 165 Atk is much better than 120. There is also Thick Club Marowak-Alola. You could even argue that Aegislash-Blade and Blacephalon have higher attack than Marshadow to represent ghosts.

 

[Rumors]

Weaville's only real niche in BH is it can be a priority-abusing Mega-Ray check using Dazzling to dodge Triage Oblivion Wing or Aerilate Fakespeed while being fast enough to outspeed its other moves and attack with a 4x weakness. This is so specific, however, you'll pretty much only reliably do this when Imposterproofing your own Mega-Ray*. You'll probably only ever need this if you're running a team of 4 non-boosting Ray, Imposter, and Weavile or if you're in a tournament and know for certain your opponent will do something like that. More than 99.9% of the time, you won't have a use for this mon.

I've heard Fridge Weavile is good in BH UU though, so worth keeping in mind should any UU tournaments crop up.

*Ray needs 0 def EVs, 2 def IVs in order to ensure a OHKO on full health, neutral nature Eviolite Imposter with Choice Band Ice Hammer. -Def nature, like Hasty, can run 27 Def IVs. The speed drop usually isn't important since, once all opposing Imposters and Rays are down, its job is done and it can sacrifice itself for a free switch. I suppose such a set would run Ice Hammer / Trick / whatever / whatever.

Nothing to contribute to Marshadow that wasn't already said.



If you're curious on how other Pokemon not on the VR might handle, I did write an unofficial VR for E and F ranked Pokemon some time back, which you can find here. Mind, again, this is unofficial and 99% all my own opinion (I think one or two people contributed a little? Can't recall who), so take it with a grain of salt since I could be wrong on any and all entries (especially since there's a fair bit of theorymonning on some Pokemon). It's also outdated, as it was written before the Psychic Surge ban, which matters in a few instances. Some Pokemon on here might actually be properly ranked now too.

 

[Storm Eagle]

How does offense work here? Im not a fan of stall.

Most of BH can be summarized by saying the playstyles overall are pretty overwhelmingly balanced. As in, there's only really balanced team archetypes and small deviations towards more bulky or offensive archetypes. Hard stall and hyper offense are extremely rare on ladder. For tournament settings, you may see hard stall and hyper offense a lot, but the majority of your Balanced Hackmons experience will be on ladder if you're just casually playing.

As for ladder, hard stall is pretty good, but the problem is that it faces many threats as the top Pokemon in BH are exceptional wallbreakers like Mega Mewtwo XY, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Gengar, so on, so forth. Hard stall is slightly difficult to build for a newer player, so I recommend you avoid it anyways. Hyper offense is a bit different, in this scenario it is astronomically difficult to build efficiently due to Imposter. Most hyper offense teams consist of a lot of fast Spore users that can also set up or otherwise wallbreak. Don't let the tournament games fool you, hyper offense is less than stellar on ladder solely because they can't consistently win against some teams most of the time.

Overall, if this is your first experience with BH, avoid hard stall and hyper offense. Since you say you are not a fan of stall, I assume you may want a bulky offensive team, yeah?

https://pokepast.es/94d77da7e08fd824

I'm not sure if there are any sample teams but you can have one of mine. It's my most generic team, but I think that's a good thing. Go ahead and tell me if this team works out for you. Keep some stuff in mind: Revelation Dance can hit Mega Gengar even if it gives you Normalize, so always switch Yveltal in on Mega Gengar. Griseous Orb cannot be Knocked Off, therefore Giratina serves as a good counter to Poison Heal Regigigas. Red Orb Groudon's ability can be changed to Grassy Terrain if you would rather have that than Download.

If this team doesn't work for you then I can share some others. Have fun with Balanced Hackmons, I think you'll enjoy it.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

Most of BH can be summarized by saying the playstyles overall are pretty overwhelmingly balanced. As in, there's only really balanced team archetypes and small deviations towards more bulky or offensive archetypes. Hard stall and hyper offense are extremely rare on ladder. For tournament settings, you may see hard stall and hyper offense a lot, but the majority of your Balanced Hackmons experience will be on ladder if you're just casually playing.

As for ladder, hard stall is pretty good, but the problem is that it faces many threats as the top Pokemon in BH are exceptional wallbreakers like Mega Mewtwo XY, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Gengar, so on, so forth. Hard stall is slightly difficult to build for a newer player, so I recommend you avoid it anyways. Hyper offense is a bit different, in this scenario it is astronomically difficult to build efficiently due to Imposter. Most hyper offense teams consist of a lot of fast Spore users that can also set up or otherwise wallbreak. Don't let the tournament games fool you, hyper offense is less than stellar on ladder solely because they can't consistently win against some teams most of the time.

Overall, if this is your first experience with BH, avoid hard stall and hyper offense. Since you say you are not a fan of stall, I assume you may want a bulky offensive team, yeah?

https://pokepast.es/94d77da7e08fd824

I'm not sure if there are any sample teams but you can have one of mine. It's my most generic team, but I think that's a good thing. Go ahead and tell me if this team works out for you. Keep some stuff in mind: Revelation Dance can hit Mega Gengar even if it gives you Normalize, so always switch Yveltal in on Mega Gengar. Griseous Orb cannot be Knocked Off, therefore Giratina serves as a good counter to Poison Heal Regigigas. Red Orb Groudon's ability can be changed to Grassy Terrain if you would rather have that than Download.

If this team doesn't work for you then I can share some others. Have fun with Balanced Hackmons, I think you'll enjoy it.

Thanks a million! I’m planning to play both ladder and tournaments (do you mean Smogon forum tourns, chatroom tours, or both?). Im a competitive player in Pokemon.

Yes, I was actually planning to make a bulky offense team! You read my mind~

Thanks for the team! I should probably use that before making my own, get to know the metagame a bit. Though does Chansey belong on bulky offense? Isnt it a more balanced Pokemon?

Also why would Gengar be Normalize? I mean i know there isnt any Spectrate or Toxicate yet but still.

Again thanks a million!

 

[cityscapes]

do you mean Smogon forum tourns, chatroom tours, or both?

usually forum tours, they're more prestigious than room tours because you prep for them while in roomtours you just bring whatever's in your teambuilder

Though does Chansey belong on bulky offense? Isnt it a more balanced Pokemon?

chansey on more offensive builds can work, because a) it's good at checking stuff like triage ray and pixilate diancie, which those builds struggle with, and b) it can serve as a strong win condition: if you're up vs balance and you kill their aegi that they need to imposter-proof mmx or whatever, you pretty much win.

Also why is Gengar Normalize? I mean i know there isnt any Spectrate or Toxicate yet but still.

gengar doesn't really use normalize to boost its attacks. instead it uses entrainment to give the target normalize as well so they can't hit him with most attacks (some notable exceptions being revelation dance, judgment, and status moves like spore). if you don't have a dedicated check like yveltal, arceus, mixed aerilate ray, ogre, or fc chans, you probably lose to normalize gar.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

usually forum tours, they're more prestigious than room tours because you prep for them while in roomtours you just bring whatever's in your teambuilder

Oh definitely!

chansey on more offensive builds can work, because a) it's good at checking stuff like triage ray and pixilate diancie, which those builds struggle with, and b) it can serve as a strong win condition: if you're up vs balance and you kill their aegi that they need to imposter-proof mmx or whatever, you pretty much win.

I see. Cool!

gengar doesn't really use normalize to boost its attacks. instead it uses entrainment to give the target normalize as well so they can't hit him with most attacks (some notable exceptions being revelation dance, judgment, and status moves like spore). if you don't have a dedicated check like yveltal, arceus, mixed aerilate ray, ogre, or fc chans, you probably lose to normalize gar.

Ohhhh that makes sense! Thanks again!

 

[Storm Eagle]

Also why would Gengar be Normalize? I mean i know there isnt any Spectrate or Toxicate yet but still.

Normgar changes the opposing Pokemon's ability to Normalize so most attacks will be unable to hit Mega Gengar. Then normgar sets up with Quiver Dance or Shell Smash. Normgar should always be prepped for. Always. No exceptions. The simple fact of the matter is that because lots of people who are new to the metagame don't prep for normgar, a lot of low-to-mid ladder players get 6-0s with it, and due to this there are players who legitimately believe normgar is one of, if not, the best Pokemon in the meta. I've seen people use multiple normgars before and I've had people try to taunt me by saying that I'll 'lose to their normgar anyways'. Yes, normgar really is that centralizing in the lower parts of the ladder.

Primal Kyogre is one of the best Pokemon in the tier solely because its amazing defensive typing coupled with its fantastic Special Defense allows it to check quite a few Pokemon, but RegenVest variants counter Mega Gengar pretty hard. RegenVest can attack normgar with Revelation Dance and hit the others with Spectral Thief and can beat them that way. Yveltal is another mon that is good against it which is in the team I linked you, but the problem is that Yveltal doesn't take too kindly to Poison-type attacks--especially boosted ones.

Lately for me, Mega Gengar in general has been more intimidating than it has been threatening. I might even nominate it to drop in rank in the Viability Rankings. But if you ever find yourself having trouble, keep in mind there are two easy ways to beat Mega Gengar: RegenVest mons with Revelation Dance and Spectral Thief which is infallible on the right mon, and priority like -Ates (but not Mega Diancie due to Fairy resist), just keep Dazzling in mind. I've seen some people use Plates on Imposter Chansey but I'm not really a fan of that idea personally, but you can also try that. It's not really practical at all.

In BH, one thing to keep in mind is that while a Pokemon can be much more effective due to its unlimited moveset and ability, more Pokemon can be effective at checking said Pokemon with their own moveset and ability. Normalize Mega Gengar may be frustrating to face for newcomers but it's definitely not overpowered by any means.

 

[cityscapes]

HAIL STALL: a study

people seemed to like the post i made on pressure aero, so here's one on hail stall. the premises are pretty much the same, it was something that i thought had no use but turned out to be not terrible.

first off, here's the team:

Hide

simba (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Skill Swap

it be like that (Lapras) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Purify
- Scald
- Heal Order

needle man (Slowbro-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Twineedle
- Recover
- Haze
- Strength Sap / Purify

doge (Audino-Mega) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Psycho Shift / Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Shore Up
- Defog

Chansey (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Switcheroo
- Final Gambit
- Shore Up

Chansey (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze

this team has a lot of unorthodox sets, like fc dusk mane, twineedle slowbro, and flame orb mg mega audino (and, of course, lapras). that being said, it is the most standard hail stall i've been able to create so far, if that means anything.

so how exactly does hail stall win games? hail is a very interesting effect to have on the field, with its 1/16 per turn effect only resisted by safety goggles users and other ice types, and not being able to be bounced/removed unlike hazards (only displaced with other weather). this means that even if they slow uturn their wallbreaker in, he still takes 6.25% change and another 6.25% for every turn he stays in. it might not seem like a lot, but it can get some cool stuff done. for example, after a few rounds of hail chip, imposter is able to get the ohkos and 2hkos on stuff like mmy and diancie that it would otherwise miss out on. this can be the difference between taking out an annoying mon and having to deal with it coming in later on to kill ur guys.

another interesting effect of hail is that unlike hazards, it can put in work even if they stay in. the chip damage makes walls need to recover a bit more than normal, and when you stack it with other effects like poisoning from mega slowbro's twineedle or burn from chansey's will-o-wisp or lapras's scald, and knock off preventing leftovers or goggles from negating hail, defensive mons end up needing to burn their recovery pp super quickly even in the face of weak moves like scald from lapras or anchor shot from dusk mane.

now let me talk about the team. most of it is just based around handling common meta threats and statusing everything honestly, with fc dusk mane taking on ates, flame orb audino absorbing status from guys like ph xern, and unaware chansey shutting down special attackers like contrary mmy and triage ray. purify vs sap on slowbro is about ph regi/mmx vs trapper pdon/whip drum kart so its a choice on which one you want a bad mu vs

something i have to say for sure is that this team plays differently from normal stall when you use it. you have to keep different variables in mind; i mean, you might not even want hail sometimes, and going for status immediately can have bad repercussions down the road. it's not that different overall though.

is it a viable choice in the meta? hard to say. it performs well on ladder, getting me to #4 iirc, but then again most stalls do decently on ladder by the nature of it. the main question to ask here is whether having hail in the picture forces the opponent to play differently then they would be able to vs a normal stall team to the extent that you can better play around them, and honestly i feel like this situation is less clear cut than the aero one. below i've posted some replays, so you can look at those or try the team yourself or even make your own hail stall (post it here!!) to draw your own conclusions.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-833422681
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831950283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831953476

shoutouts to my man Ktütverde for inspiring me with his icy rock abomasnow hail stall in ou, keep it up man ur stuff is cool

thanks for reading everyone, i hope to see some other posts too. they dont have to be about some dumb concept, just meta discussion is fine. see you later

 

[ElMustacho]

HAIL STALL: a study

people seemed to like the post i made on pressure aero, so here's one on hail stall. the premises are pretty much the same, it was something that i thought had no use but turned out to be not terrible.

first off, here's the team:

Hide

simba (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Skill Swap

it be like that (Lapras) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Purify
- Scald
- Heal Order

needle man (Slowbro-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Twineedle
- Recover
- Haze
- Strength Sap / Purify

doge (Audino-Mega) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Psycho Shift / Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Shore Up
- Defog

Chansey (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Switcheroo
- Final Gambit
- Shore Up

Chansey (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze

this team has a lot of unorthodox sets, like fc dusk mane, twineedle slowbro, and flame orb mg mega audino (and, of course, lapras). that being said, it is the most standard hail stall i've been able to create so far, if that means anything.

so how exactly does hail stall win games? hail is a very interesting effect to have on the field, with its 1/16 per turn effect only resisted by safety goggles users and other ice types, and not being able to be bounced/removed unlike hazards (only displaced with other weather). this means that even if they slow uturn their wallbreaker in, he still takes 6.25% change and another 6.25% for every turn he stays in. it might not seem like a lot, but it can get some cool stuff done. for example, after a few rounds of hail chip, imposter is able to get the ohkos and 2hkos on stuff like mmy and diancie that it would otherwise miss out on. this can be the difference between taking out an annoying mon and having to deal with it coming in later on to kill ur guys.

another interesting effect of hail is that unlike hazards, it can put in work even if they stay in. the chip damage makes walls need to recover a bit more than normal, and when you stack it with other effects like poisoning from mega slowbro's twineedle or burn from chansey's will-o-wisp or lapras's scald, and knock off preventing leftovers or goggles from negating hail, defensive mons end up needing to burn their recovery pp super quickly even in the face of weak moves like scald from lapras or anchor shot from dusk mane.

now let me talk about the team. most of it is just based around handling common meta threats and statusing everything honestly, with fc dusk mane taking on ates, flame orb audino absorbing status from guys like ph xern, and unaware chansey shutting down special attackers like contrary mmy and triage ray. purify vs sap on slowbro is about ph regi/mmx vs trapper pdon/whip drum kart so its a choice on which one you want a bad mu vs

something i have to say for sure is that this team plays differently from normal stall when you use it. you have to keep different variables in mind; i mean, you might not even want hail sometimes, and going for status immediately can have bad repercussions down the road. it's not that different overall though.

is it a viable choice in the meta? hard to say. it performs well on ladder, getting me to #4 iirc, but then again most stalls do decently on ladder by the nature of it. the main question to ask here is whether having hail in the picture forces the opponent to play differently then they would be able to vs a normal stall team to the extent that you can better play around them, and honestly i feel like this situation is less clear cut than the aero one. below i've posted some replays, so you can look at those or try the team yourself or even make your own hail stall (post it here!!) to draw your own conclusions.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-833422681
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831950283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831953476

shoutouts to my man Ktütverde for inspiring me with his icy rock abomasnow hail stall in ou, keep it up man ur stuff is cool

thanks for reading everyone, i hope to see some other posts too. they dont have to be about some dumb concept, just meta discussion is fine. see you later

Just some considerations; 0 atk on both Chansey; you are not using it and you can sort of stop strength sap from working.
I don't understand twinneedle over poison fang; it poisons less times and it doesn't badly poisons, which you'd like more on stall. Ph would abuse, even when purified, both kind of poisons and there's no power behind twinneedle to justify it over poison fang.
Fake out on imposter is bad because there is no illusion to break. You mention necrozma as being your -ate check but it doesn't take well mray -ate specs burst, which 2hkoes almost always, and unaware Chansey doesn't help much as it takes 42% minimum. There is a serious chance of 2hko after rocks.

If we wanted to diverge from full stall, I can't recommend enough -ate Kyurem-both would work. Fake out from B is particularly nasty here because it forces taking chip for another turn, and that team inflicts a lot of chip. Being immune to the weather you are summoning is nice too. Boomburst from W will deter pdon from entering the field because the thing is extremely threatening to your team. Other than switching in megabro you are going to lose (no burns, no scald, no koff, hits too hard for fc steels, power doesn't come from boosts so Chansey is fried, and can run trapping) and it can do whatever it wants that turn. Other uncommon options are scarf adapt kyu-w as you have perfect blizzards and it would still hit pretty hard.

A thing I discovered about sand (that applies to hail) is that it is a very good way of scouting abilities and items. It gives an eventual spore user much more security as you know what has googles on and what hasn't, and they are mostly running bounce at that point or it's obvious for other reasons.

That was all.

 

[Rumors]

I'm not sure on Unaware Chansey for Hail (or Sand) stall since it's gonna get chipped every turn since it can't (or really, just shouldn't) run Leftovers. Plus, you have the usual issue of Chansey vs Knock Off/Trick.


Some Pokemon/sets you might consider...

Regice is a pretty good wall on Hail teams. It has an irritating number of weaknesses you'd need to cover, but 80/100/200 is otherwise pretty solid. 100 Special Attack isn't amazing, but being able to fire perfectly accurate Blizzards on occasion can be handy. This lets it do things such as pressure some common walls (like Giratina), keeps Ray from using it as set-up bait, and just applies some general pressure. It's not so strong it'd be a mandatory moveslot, but worth a thought if using it. It's also nicely slow at base 50 speed if you wanna pivot with it.

An example set that probably needs some work, inspired by old, standard meta Abomasnow stall sets.


It's snow time! (Regice) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield / Milk Drink
- Blizzard / Milk Drink



That Audino set gives me all sorts of Gen V vibes, which is pretty cool. You might also consider running Poison Heal Psycho Shift if you go that route. Sub is also a really good option on such sets since it helps you dodge Knock Off. You could even put such a set on Lapras or another Ice type and go full Stallrein. Like...


The Unfinished (Lapras) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield
- Psycho Shift
- Simple Beam

Min speed works too, but I wanted Sub to block as many slow U-Turns as possible so I didn't get my PH healing chipped.



You might also really consider a fast, ideally bulky, Mold Breaker sleep shuffler/hazard setter. A good shuffler can outright win some games on a stall team. Sadly, the perfect user for this, Froslass, is too slow and too frail by BH standards these days. (She used to be both fast and spin blocky at the same time.) So, that means you either want Weavile for hail immunity + speed, something like Deo-A for just speed, a Mewtwo if you wanna hit things too, or like Arceus if you want relatively quick bulk. Here's a set I was experimenting with, but might need a little work. If you're feeling ballsy, you can axe the recovery move for Spikes and run Wish support.



Arceus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Whirlwind



I wish we had more viable Ice-types in the meta, especially fast ones or just dual-typed ones in general. (Or Mega-Froslass and Mega-Weavile!) It'd really help out since, right now, just about every decent option for a Hail team kinda leaves you scratching your head and going "I'm not really sure..." Primal weathers are also a really big problem too and there's not much you can do other than KO the offending Pokemon.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

Fake out on imposter is bad because there is no illusion to break

What do you mean by this? What illusion? Is there something about Imposter I'm not following? Because I'm pretty sure Imposter just lets you turn into the opponent on switch in... Sorry, I'm just confused.

don't understand twinneedle over poison fang; it poisons less times and it doesn't badly poisons, which you'd like more on stall. Ph would abuse, even when purified, both kind of poisons and there's no power behind twinneedle to justify it over poison fang.

Agreed. It seemed kind of pointless. Toxic is good too, but Poison Fang can be used if you don't want it to be bounced back or miss or taunted. Actually Poison Fang is pretty smart...

I wish we had more viable Ice-types in the meta, especially fast ones or just dual-typed ones in general. (Or Mega-Froslass and Mega-Weavile!) It'd really help out

100% agree! We can also buff the ice type in general, but that's a topic for another day.

Also I would LOVE a Mega Weavile!! Weavile is my favorite Pokemon ever!

 

[ElMustacho]

What do you mean by this? What illusion? Is there something about Imposter I'm not following? Because I'm pretty sure Imposter just lets you turn into the opponent on switch in... Sorry, I'm just confused.

Illusion is the signature ability of Zoroark, it lets you assume the aspect of the last pokemon (not fainted) of your team until you are hit, except for the hp percentage (and status), which is not disguised. The ability resets on switchout. It prevents imposter/transform from activating and in bh it caused some problems because everything could run it. Imagine that the opponent sends in Rayquaza against your Giratina. Rayquaza which is usually walled by Flash Fire Registeel and can hit supereffectively Giratina; it would be wise to switchout to Registeel. Except that Rayquaza is actually choice band illusion MMX and it just close combated your registeel to 0hp. That's not really fun, because now Rayquaza can sweep. There was counterplay to this; an example is fakeout, that breaks illusion, deals some damage to remember you which pokemon you are actually facing and makes them flinch, making them lose the turn. Because reasons illusion is banned, and there is little reason to run fake out, except on fakespeed sets. Chansey's pathetic fake out had reason to be run because of illusion, but without it is just dumb. I didn't help that it is scarf imposter; they would be forced to switchout afterwords anyway

Agreed. It seemed kind of pointless. Toxic is good too, but Poison Fang can be used if you don't want it to be bounced back or miss or taunted. Actually Poison Fang is pretty smart...

Toxic is a bad idea because it gets bounced, and can miss (poison fang may not poison, but at least it does a little damage). Also, because megabro is running prankster, toxic wouldn't hit dark types and dazzling.
.

 

[anaconja]

I don't understand twinneedle over poison fang; it poisons less times and it doesn't badly poisons, which you'd like more on stall. Ph would abuse, even when purified, both kind of poisons and there's no power behind twinneedle to justify it over poison fang.

Twineedle hits Steel types like Kartana and NDM so it’s not dead weight against them. Additionally, poison is useful for an opposing team that switches frequently, for it damages for more on the first turn, enough to outdamage Leftovers.

 

[ElMustacho]

Twineedle hits Steel types like Kartana and NDM so it’s not dead weight against them. Additionally, poison is useful for an opposing team that switches frequently, for it damages for more on the first turn, enough to outdamage Leftovers.

Twineedle 11hkoes (eleven) kartana and 14hkoes NDM (and wouldn't poison them anyway). Also, poisoning can be outhealed, bad poisoning cannot.

 

[anaconja]

Twineedle 11hkoes (eleven) kartana and 14hkoes NDM (and wouldn't poison them anyway). Also, poisoning can be outhealed, bad poisoning cannot.

It at least hits them (which Poison Fang cannot), and setup Kartana and NDM can't touch Slowbro-Mega in the meantime. Poisoning can be outhealed, but takes less time to force heals (draining PP) than bad poisoning if the opponent is mainly switching.

 

[ElMustacho]

It at least hits them (which Poison Fang cannot), and setup Kartana and NDM can't touch Slowbro-Mega in the meantime. Poisoning can be outhealed, but takes less time to force heals (draining PP) than bad poisoning if the opponent is mainly switching.

Kartana can OHKO megabro with stab. NDM is walled. If I wanted to deal chip to them, I'd run scald.

 

[cityscapes]

Just some considerations

you're right on fake out imposter lol that should be changed

twineedle is mainly for setup kart/dusk mane which slowbro can handle, especially if it has sap to protect against power whip, but fails to actually damage with a poison move. this can be risky because it means you have to go for pp stall, potentially letting threatening guys in for free. twineedle helps you not be passive vs these guys and makes it harder for the opponent to stall out hail. scald is bad because then you're walled by pdon which is bad news.

besides that though, you definitely don't have to run twineedle if you think another move would be better. this is almost definitely not the optimal hail team, just something constructed from my current view of the meta, and more experimentation is also nice.

the more offensive direction you proposed is kinda cool actually, i can see how fakespeed mons would be a ton more threatening with hail/status chip working alongside them. other options i considered were offensive magic guard users like mmy, mmx, and diancie, and even stupid stuff like ph mamo. hail balance might be the strat here.

thanks for the replies everyone

 

[NylaTheWolf]

Illusion is the signature ability of Zoroark, it lets you assume the aspect of the last pokemon (not fainted) of your team until you are hit, except for the hp percentage (and status), which is not disguised. The ability resets on switchout. It prevents imposter/transform from activating and in bh it caused some problems because everything could run it. Imagine that the opponent sends in Rayquaza against your Giratina. Rayquaza which is usually walled by Flash Fire Registeel and can hit supereffectively Giratina; it would be wise to switchout to Registeel. Except that Rayquaza is actually choice band illusion MMX and it just close combated your registeel to 0hp. That's not really fun, because now Rayquaza can sweep. There was counterplay to this; an example is fakeout, that breaks illusion, deals some damage to remember you which pokemon you are actually facing and makes them flinch, making them lose the turn. Because reasons illusion is banned, and there is little reason to run fake out, except on fakespeed sets. Chansey's pathetic fake out had reason to be run because of illusion, but without it is just dumb. I didn't help that it is scarf imposter; they would be forced to switchout afterwords anyway

Toxic is a bad idea because it gets bounced, and can miss (poison fang may not poison, but at least it does a little damage). Also, because megabro is running prankster, toxic wouldn't hit dark types and dazzling.
.

Ohhh the ability! I get it now! Sorry, haha!

Yeah, that's why I said Poison Fang was actually smart.

Twineedle hits Steel types like Kartana and NDM so it’s not dead weight against them. Additionally, poison is useful for an opposing team that switches frequently, for it damages for more on the first turn, enough to outdamage Leftovers.

Just use Corrosion. Problem solved.

I guess you have a point with Poison on the first turn, but I feel like a frequently switching team is a bit situational. I may be wrong, I just got into the metagame, but still. I feel like badly poisoning is much more useful in the long run.

 

[Rumors]

*Looks up the odds of Twineedle poisoning*

"Hmmm, 20% each hit? Might be handy if you just need any poison status for a Merciless sweeper or something...."

*Calculates the total odds of occuring*

"32%? That barely beats out Poison Fang, right? Neat, that does give it some niche justification over Poison Fang!"

*Double checks Poison Fang*

"...oh, it's 50% now. Well, never mind."


I tried to find it a niche but... it really doesn't do anything stand out. I think double-digit-KOing is way too situational, especially when the targets in question are immune to the status you brought the move to inflict. I mean, not to be a smart ass or anything, but look...

252 Atk Slowbro-Mega Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 26-32 (6.5 - 8%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 SpA Slowbro-Mega Water Gun vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 51-60 (12.8 - 15%) -- possible 7HKO


252 Atk Slowbro-Mega Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 26-32 (8 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 SpA Slowbro-Mega Water Gun vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 48-57 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO


If you're gonna chip them to death, then use like... Scald or Whirlpool or Infestation or something.


Really, I think in this pivot heavy meta, the chip potential of Infestation might have been forgotten.

 

[Champion Leon]

you're right on fake out imposter lol that should be changed

twineedle is mainly for setup kart/dusk mane which slowbro can handle, especially if it has sap to protect against power whip, but fails to actually damage with a poison move. this can be risky because it means you have to go for pp stall, potentially letting threatening guys in for free. twineedle helps you not be passive vs these guys and makes it harder for the opponent to stall out hail. scald is bad because then you're walled by pdon which is bad news.

besides that though, you definitely don't have to run twineedle if you think another move would be better. this is almost definitely not the optimal hail team, just something constructed from my current view of the meta, and more experimentation is also nice.

the more offensive direction you proposed is kinda cool actually, i can see how fakespeed mons would be a ton more threatening with hail/status chip working alongside them. other options i considered were offensive magic guard users like mmy, mmx, and diancie, and even stupid stuff like ph mamo. hail balance might be the strat here.

thanks for the replies everyone

I know it's Hail Stall, but cant you have at least one Offensive Pokemon?
The great thing about Hail is your opponent cannot take advantage of the same abilities as you, besides Imposter, so why not consider Slush Rush?

Calcs:

Hide

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-White Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Giratina: 506-596 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-White Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 354-418 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- OHKO after hail damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-White Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Diancie-Mega: 294-346 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- OHKO after hail damage

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-White Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 720-852 (113.2 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not that it must be an Ice type, but if Kyurem-White ran Choice Specs STAB Blizzard, Clanging Scales / Draco Meteor, Eruption, and Earth Power, I could see it dealing good damage, and carving out a niche. This is not a great Pokemon, but if given the right support, perhaps it could serve some value?

(Eruption is similar to Water Spout Scarf Kyogre-Primal; Specs matches a STAB boost, so Kyurem-White is much faster and has the same base power).

Draco Meteor means even if the Hail runs out, not even Zygarde-Complete can survive:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-White Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 638-752 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Remember, this is without Adaptability, and without a Z-item. Kyurem-White means business!

Also, what's a Hail Stall team without Aurora Veil?
Throw Aurora Veil on Lapras, this way it can actually survive and take hits in BH's heavily offensive metagame. Lapras isn't a paper thin Pokemon, but its no Zygarde-Complete either, plus it helps the whole team.

 

[MAMP]

some sauce:

feel like primal kyogre has a lot of untapped potential. here's a few sets i've played around with

Kyogre-Primal @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Scald / Ice Beam
- Anchor Shot / Ice Beam
- Entrainment / Spectral Thief
- Roost

bounce ogre is a really solid glue mon that i've found myself slapping onto a lot of teams lately. it's a very solid counter to ph xern/ogre and normgar, and it can solidly check a ton of mons like pixilate diancie and triage ray just by virtue of its typing/bulk. scald + entrainment is difficult for a lot of teams to switch into, and so ogre is pretty good at chipping down teams over a long game with burns. ice beam lets ogre pressure tina and zyg and more effectively check ray. spectral can be used > entrain to better check gar and contra m2y and other miscellaneous nonsense. spectral still beats xern but im not sure if it beats ph ogre and it leaves you walled by stuff like ph tina/aud. this set always feels good against fat balance teams and its very rarely deadweight, just a really solid mon overall. i dont like u-turn much on this set bc it makes it really obnoxious to improof and you let imposter get a lot of momentum against you.

brought this with ice/anchor/entrain in ompl semi-finals vs jasprose bc i thought he might bring ph xern. it was also there to improof sr kyu-b, provide bounce support for shed, and help check triage ray: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-786131531

also brought this in group stages of world cup vs qt with scald/ice/entrain, it put in a ton of work in this one: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-837247289

Kyogre-Primal @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Ice Beam
- Bolt Strike
- Shell Smash

sf ogre is way better than it looks at first glance. steam eruption 2hkos basically anything that doesn't resist it, and ice beam/bolt strike take out anything that does. i like this a lot as a shell smasher bc it beats a lot of common prankster/unaware mons by just being strong enough to 2hko them unboosted. why use sf ogre > sf mmy? there's a few reasons. ogre's better bulk and defensive typing allow it to stick around a lot longer, and in particular it doesn't get worn down so quickly by miscellaneous spectrals/uturns. kyogre has a much more powerful stab, which gives it a lot more initial power and means it relies far less on coverage to break stuff, which allows it to more effectively run stuff like shell smash. the surprise factor is pretty significant too; often people will go into something like tina or vest ogre to scout and just get bopped.

this set can be difficult to imposter-proof. shedinja works, but it's really the only decent option unless you want to go really deep and run something like unaware ferro or volt absorb ogre. its important to note that bolt strike does like 45-55 to imposter, meaning that imposter can't really safely switch in if you predict it, and if you smash on the switch to imposter you can just kill it with a decent roll or even just a little bit of prior damage.

this obviously lacks the raw power of other offensive ogre sets like specs primsea/tinted, but gains the advantage of being able to switch moves, being less telegraphed than primsea, being better at running shell smash, and not losing to other pogres.

here's a replay on ladder where sf ogre put in some good work: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-833776329

Kyogre-Primal @ Waterium Z / Icium Z / Mystic Water
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Ice Beam
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up

i found a way to make primsea ogre not lose to imposter yeet

haven't really tested this set enough to come to a verdict on it, heaps of teams can't really deal with it defensively and it has bulk + shore up so it can stick around but it can't really beat giratina or other ogres besides freezing them. it is a very fun imposter lure tho

BIG PEX ENERGY (Toxapex) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shore Up
- Entrainment
- Scald / Poison Fang / Knock Off
- Anchor Shot / U-turn / Topsy-Turvy / whatever

pex is a weird mon, but i like it very much. its unique set of resists and good bulk allows it to role compress in a pretty unique way. pex beats mdiancie/xern without ground coverage, many variants of ogre, psychic-less mmx (ph, -ate, some tough claws sets, some contra sets sometimes), pheromosa and the bee, many kart sets, and some other miscellaneous dudes. it has an extremely slow u-turn, it's really hard for fat teams to wear down bc it can't be poisoned, resists uturn and anchor and isnt weak to core/spectral. pex's main niche is that it resists fairy+fire without needing an ability, making it a really efficient improof to v-create+hazards diancie. i've only really run pex on teams where i needed it to improof something specific, like in this ompl game where it was improofing a couple of weird mmx sets. pex walled basically willdbeast's whole team here, but i played it kinda poorly unfortunately. i'm not sure if pex is worth running without magic bounce — i've considered running levitate but i don't think that's very good

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Bolt Strike / Psychic / Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam / Moonblast
- Earth Power / Blue Flare
- Stealth Rock / Spikes

sf mmy makes for a good hazard setter bc it forces so many switches and beats most of the common defoggers/bouncers. sf mmy often runs a kinda situational move like psychic or sludge in the last slot, so you aren't sacrificing a huge amount running hazards on it. improof with some magic bounce fat dude, depending on coverage

Diancie-Mega @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Low Kick
- Lovely Kiss
- Coil

i talked about this one on the discord yesterday and people seemed skeptical, so i figured it'd be good to explain why i think this set is worth using. defensively, this set is a solid counter to pretty much every ph gigas/mmx and it does a nice job at checking a variety of ray sets. it also gets a ton of momentum on a variety of fat mons, similar to ph xern. this set is good against the same types of teams that ph xern is good against, but it has a bit more initial speed and power. coil boosting the accuracy of kiss is really sweet and makes the set a lot more consistent. the 4x steel weakness is really annoying, as is the weaknesses to thousand waves and ogre's revdance. i brought this one against quantum tesseract in world cup: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-837247289. it would have been able to do well in this game if i hadn't assumed the zygarde was soundproof

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Refrigerate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Frustration
- Dragon Ascent
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance

really silly zyg/tina lure that can also check most mmx/ray sets and weakened mmy/gar. it can be imposter-proof sometimes if they haven't set their happiness

Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Moonblast
- Magma Storm
- Taunt
- Nuzzle

taunt+nuzzle xern crushes a lot of fat teams. taunt shuts down entrainment/recovery and stops other fat ph mons from setting up on you. nuzzle does a few things: it makes the set more potent against offense, it's really good against imposter, and it lets you beat stuff like magic bounce audino that would beat you otherwise. you just paralyse them, then get them with magma and spam moonblast, it usually only takes one full para to take them out. this set goes really well with spikes. you do lose a lot against more offensive teams by dropping quiver + kiss, but this set is basically free wins vs a lot of common bulky builds, very fun stuff.