BH Balanced Hackmons

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
is a Pre-Contributor
What are these imposters? I cant find anything explaining that..
Imposter is an ability that allows the Pokemon that has it to transform into the Pokemon on the opponent's side of the field. This transformation copies the base stats of the opponent (except HP, which is why Chansey is so often used for this purpose), their stat buffs and ability, their moves (your copies will start with 5 PP and have 5 PP max, which is refreshed if you switch out and in again), and some other things.
Most items' effects still apply when the Pokemon with Imposter transforms as those don't get replaced, such as Eviolite (again, why Chansey is so often used), the Plates if you want to try and beat someone's anti-Imposter (aka "improof") sets, and Choice Scarf. It's also good to note that some abilities don't work properly if a Pokemon transforms into something that has them, which are always tied to the Pokemon itself; Stance Change, Multitype, and Forecast are some examples.
This doesn't work if the opponent's Pokemon has an Illusion (which is banned) or Substitute up, though, which is why most Imposter Pokemon carry Fake Out (not really anymore because it was used for Illusion) and/or Whirlwind in their original moveset, as much as you'd think it wouldn't matter it actually does in those situations.

hopefully this explains it
also the Pokemon who originally has this ability is Ditto if it helps you get a visual, it's basically Transform, the ability
 
Good description of Imposter. I think you explained it well.
This doesn't work if the opponent's Pokemon has an Illusion (which is banned) or Substitute up, though, which is why most Imposter Pokemon carry Fake Out (not really anymore because it was used for Illusion) and/or Whirlwind in their original moveset, as much as you'd think it wouldn't matter it actually does in those situations.
An important note you forgot to mention: You can't transform into a transformed Pokemon. This means that if you switch an Imposter into a Pokemon which had activated Imposter or used Transform, then your Pokemon's Imposter won't activate. This is why movesets are relevant with Imposter.

I don't really think Whirlwind is used that much any more even though it's listed on the SetPedia. There are better moves to choose from nowadays. For me, I'd probably say the most meta moveset right now is:
  • Anchor Shot
  • Wish / Heal Bell
  • Soft-Boiled
  • U-turn / Spikes / Stealth Rock
One thing I feel Imposter is underrated at is improofing special attackers. Chansey has a great defensive typing and an astronomical Special Defense. Anchor Shot lets you immediately threaten opposing Imposters. I'm sure you could use two strong special attackers, two Imposter Chanseys to improof them, and all you would need is hazard removal, a check to PH users, and a normgar check, which is decently easy to fit in two slots. Just be cautious of losing to Fur Coat Chansey.

Also, because Scarf Imposter is locked into a move, it cannot improof special attackers unless you try to run gimmicky shit... so the above only applies to Eviolite.
 
  • Anchor Shot
  • Wish / Heal Bell
  • Soft-Boiled
  • U-turn / Spikes / Stealth Rock
What does this do to a threat behind Substitute though? Outside of switching, anyway, which might not be possible if you lack U-Turn and the opponent has Anchor Shot (unlikely, but worth keeping in mind since such an event is usually an auto-lose for Imposter with the given set). I'd at least slash Whirlwind and Skill Swap on Anchor Shot's slot. Skill Swap is notable since it bypasses sub, bypasses Magic Bounce/Coat, and forces the opponent to transform into you which is usually a momentum kill on their part. Although it's not a no brainer pick since it's blocked by some abilities, most notably Comatose for some reason.
 
I honestly don't feel like Substitute is used enough to justify using Whirlwind. I've literally only ever seen Substitute on Triage Mega Rayquaza and some shitty PH unsets, although I hear some Contrary sets run it, but those Contrary users would end up breaking Chansey regardless of whether it had Whirlwind or not.

While Triage Mega Rayquaza is dangerous, it's not without its checks. I should note that Substitute Triage Mega Rayquaza is very weak to Spectral Thief, as Spectral Thief not only steals boosts from Mega Rayquaza, it goes through Substitute too. You can also just use Boomburst from practically any -Ate and you'll threaten Mega Rayquaza. There are more practical ways of beating Triage Mega Rayquaza and other Substitute users, and I think Whirlwind on a passive mon only serves to postpone the problem rather than dealing with it directly.
 
Can Weavile work in BH? Like, maybe Refrigerate or Adaptability as its ability?
weavile looks decent on paper because ice/dark is a really cool offensive typing and it's reasonably fast, but unfortunately it falls short in a few pretty important ways. the first is that it doesn't hit very hard. balanced hackmons is a pretty bulky metagame, and weavile has a somewhat subpar 120 base attack and lacks any high base power stab options, meaning it just doesn't hit very hard. this means that it is often outclassed by other ice and dark-types like mega tyranitar and kyurem-black, which have a lot more power behind their attacks. weavile has the advantage over these mons of being a lot faster, but it falls just short of the pokemon that it really wants to outspeed, like mega gengar and the mega mewtwos. weavile is also extremely frail and weak to a lot of common attacking types, like steel, fairy, fighting, and bug. overall, weavile can't take hits, doesn't hit particularly hard itself, and isn't quite fast enough to make up for it. i'd love it if weavile were good because i think its typing is really interesting, but it's let down by its mediocre stats at every turn and is generally just outclassed by other pokemon in the tier.
 
weavile looks decent on paper because ice/dark is a really cool offensive typing and it's reasonably fast, but unfortunately it falls short in a few pretty important ways. the first is that it doesn't hit very hard. balanced hackmons is a pretty bulky metagame, and weavile has a somewhat subpar 120 base attack and lacks any high base power stab options, meaning it just doesn't hit very hard. this means that it is often outclassed by other ice and dark-types like mega tyranitar and kyurem-black, which have a lot more power behind their attacks. weavile has the advantage over these mons of being a lot faster, but it falls just short of the pokemon that it really wants to outspeed, like mega gengar and the mega mewtwos. weavile is also extremely frail and weak to a lot of common attacking types, like steel, fairy, fighting, and bug. overall, weavile can't take hits, doesn't hit particularly hard itself, and isn't quite fast enough to make up for it. i'd love it if weavile were good because i think its typing is really interesting, but it's let down by its mediocre stats at every turn and is generally just outclassed by other pokemon in the tier.
Man. That really sucks.

How is Marshadow in here?
 
How is Marshadow in here?
As much as I love Marshadow, it's unfortunate to tell you that Marshadow isn't viable in BH. In Uber, it has a truly unresisted STAB, great moves, and a great ability. However, like MAMP said, BH is a bulky metagame. Marshadow has subpar 120 Attack and not enough speed to outspeed common threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Y and Mega Gengar. It's signature move is also available to all other Pokemon, so stealing stat boosts isn't much to be proud of in this tier.

Bulk-wise, Marshadow has only decent bulk and not enough firepower to back it up. Stuff like MMX and Pheromosa do more damage, whereas MegaTar or MGyara have simply more bulk to use PH setup.

tl;dr Marsh is pretty much outclassed in all aspects and shouldn't be used in BH. It would the only physical Ghost-type attacker tho.
 
As much as I love Marshadow, it's unfortunate to tell you that Marshadow isn't viable in BH. In Uber, it has a truly unresisted STAB, great moves, and a great ability. However, like MAMP said, BH is a bulky metagame. Marshadow has subpar 120 Attack and not enough speed to outspeed common threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Y and Mega Gengar. It's signature move is also available to all other Pokemon, so stealing stat boosts isn't much to be proud of in this tier.

Bulk-wise, Marshadow has only decent bulk and not enough firepower to back it up. Stuff like MMX and Pheromosa do more damage, whereas MegaTar or MGyara have simply more bulk to use PH setup.

tl;dr Marsh is pretty much outclassed in all aspects and shouldn't be used in BH. It would the only physical Ghost-type attacker tho.
Oof, poor marshmellow. At least it can beat up all those legendaries in Ubers.

How does offense work here? Im not a fan of stall.
 
As much as I love Marshadow, it's unfortunate to tell you that Marshadow isn't viable in BH. In Uber, it has a truly unresisted STAB, great moves, and a great ability. However, like MAMP said, BH is a bulky metagame. Marshadow has subpar 120 Attack and not enough speed to outspeed common threats like Mega Mewtwo X and Y and Mega Gengar. It's signature move is also available to all other Pokemon, so stealing stat boosts isn't much to be proud of in this tier.

Bulk-wise, Marshadow has only decent bulk and not enough firepower to back it up. Stuff like MMX and Pheromosa do more damage, whereas MegaTar or MGyara have simply more bulk to use PH setup.

tl;dr Marsh is pretty much outclassed in all aspects and shouldn't be used in BH. It would the only physical Ghost-type attacker tho.
Quick correction: Mega Banette outclasses Marshadow as a physical Ghost-type attacker. 165 Atk is much better than 120. There is also Thick Club Marowak-Alola. You could even argue that Aegislash-Blade and Blacephalon have higher attack than Marshadow to represent ghosts.
 
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Weaville's only real niche in BH is it can be a priority-abusing Mega-Ray check using Dazzling to dodge Triage Oblivion Wing or Aerilate Fakespeed while being fast enough to outspeed its other moves and attack with a 4x weakness. This is so specific, however, you'll pretty much only reliably do this when Imposterproofing your own Mega-Ray*. You'll probably only ever need this if you're running a team of 4 non-boosting Ray, Imposter, and Weavile or if you're in a tournament and know for certain your opponent will do something like that. More than 99.9% of the time, you won't have a use for this mon.

I've heard Fridge Weavile is good in BH UU though, so worth keeping in mind should any UU tournaments crop up.

*Ray needs 0 def EVs, 2 def IVs in order to ensure a OHKO on full health, neutral nature Eviolite Imposter with Choice Band Ice Hammer. -Def nature, like Hasty, can run 27 Def IVs. The speed drop usually isn't important since, once all opposing Imposters and Rays are down, its job is done and it can sacrifice itself for a free switch. I suppose such a set would run Ice Hammer / Trick / whatever / whatever.

Nothing to contribute to Marshadow that wasn't already said.



If you're curious on how other Pokemon not on the VR might handle, I did write an unofficial VR for E and F ranked Pokemon some time back, which you can find here. Mind, again, this is unofficial and 99% all my own opinion (I think one or two people contributed a little? Can't recall who), so take it with a grain of salt since I could be wrong on any and all entries (especially since there's a fair bit of theorymonning on some Pokemon). It's also outdated, as it was written before the Psychic Surge ban, which matters in a few instances. Some Pokemon on here might actually be properly ranked now too.
 
How does offense work here? Im not a fan of stall.
Most of BH can be summarized by saying the playstyles overall are pretty overwhelmingly balanced. As in, there's only really balanced team archetypes and small deviations towards more bulky or offensive archetypes. Hard stall and hyper offense are extremely rare on ladder. For tournament settings, you may see hard stall and hyper offense a lot, but the majority of your Balanced Hackmons experience will be on ladder if you're just casually playing.

As for ladder, hard stall is pretty good, but the problem is that it faces many threats as the top Pokemon in BH are exceptional wallbreakers like Mega Mewtwo XY, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Gengar, so on, so forth. Hard stall is slightly difficult to build for a newer player, so I recommend you avoid it anyways. Hyper offense is a bit different, in this scenario it is astronomically difficult to build efficiently due to Imposter. Most hyper offense teams consist of a lot of fast Spore users that can also set up or otherwise wallbreak. Don't let the tournament games fool you, hyper offense is less than stellar on ladder solely because they can't consistently win against some teams most of the time.

Overall, if this is your first experience with BH, avoid hard stall and hyper offense. Since you say you are not a fan of stall, I assume you may want a bulky offensive team, yeah?

https://pokepast.es/94d77da7e08fd824

I'm not sure if there are any sample teams but you can have one of mine. It's my most generic team, but I think that's a good thing. Go ahead and tell me if this team works out for you. Keep some stuff in mind: Revelation Dance can hit Mega Gengar even if it gives you Normalize, so always switch Yveltal in on Mega Gengar. Griseous Orb cannot be Knocked Off, therefore Giratina serves as a good counter to Poison Heal Regigigas. Red Orb Groudon's ability can be changed to Grassy Terrain if you would rather have that than Download.

If this team doesn't work for you then I can share some others. Have fun with Balanced Hackmons, I think you'll enjoy it.
 
Most of BH can be summarized by saying the playstyles overall are pretty overwhelmingly balanced. As in, there's only really balanced team archetypes and small deviations towards more bulky or offensive archetypes. Hard stall and hyper offense are extremely rare on ladder. For tournament settings, you may see hard stall and hyper offense a lot, but the majority of your Balanced Hackmons experience will be on ladder if you're just casually playing.

As for ladder, hard stall is pretty good, but the problem is that it faces many threats as the top Pokemon in BH are exceptional wallbreakers like Mega Mewtwo XY, Mega Rayquaza, Mega Gengar, so on, so forth. Hard stall is slightly difficult to build for a newer player, so I recommend you avoid it anyways. Hyper offense is a bit different, in this scenario it is astronomically difficult to build efficiently due to Imposter. Most hyper offense teams consist of a lot of fast Spore users that can also set up or otherwise wallbreak. Don't let the tournament games fool you, hyper offense is less than stellar on ladder solely because they can't consistently win against some teams most of the time.

Overall, if this is your first experience with BH, avoid hard stall and hyper offense. Since you say you are not a fan of stall, I assume you may want a bulky offensive team, yeah?

https://pokepast.es/94d77da7e08fd824

I'm not sure if there are any sample teams but you can have one of mine. It's my most generic team, but I think that's a good thing. Go ahead and tell me if this team works out for you. Keep some stuff in mind: Revelation Dance can hit Mega Gengar even if it gives you Normalize, so always switch Yveltal in on Mega Gengar. Griseous Orb cannot be Knocked Off, therefore Giratina serves as a good counter to Poison Heal Regigigas. Red Orb Groudon's ability can be changed to Grassy Terrain if you would rather have that than Download.

If this team doesn't work for you then I can share some others. Have fun with Balanced Hackmons, I think you'll enjoy it.
Thanks a million! I’m planning to play both ladder and tournaments (do you mean Smogon forum tourns, chatroom tours, or both?). Im a competitive player in Pokemon.

Yes, I was actually planning to make a bulky offense team! You read my mind~

Thanks for the team! I should probably use that before making my own, get to know the metagame a bit. Though does Chansey belong on bulky offense? Isnt it a more balanced Pokemon?

Also why would Gengar be Normalize? I mean i know there isnt any Spectrate or Toxicate yet but still.

Again thanks a million!
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

GAME FUN HAPPY TIMES
is a Community Contributor
do you mean Smogon forum tourns, chatroom tours, or both?
usually forum tours, they're more prestigious than room tours because you prep for them while in roomtours you just bring whatever's in your teambuilder
Though does Chansey belong on bulky offense? Isnt it a more balanced Pokemon?
chansey on more offensive builds can work, because a) it's good at checking stuff like triage ray and pixilate diancie, which those builds struggle with, and b) it can serve as a strong win condition: if you're up vs balance and you kill their aegi that they need to imposter-proof mmx or whatever, you pretty much win.
Also why is Gengar Normalize? I mean i know there isnt any Spectrate or Toxicate yet but still.
gengar doesn't really use normalize to boost its attacks. instead it uses entrainment to give the target normalize as well so they can't hit him with most attacks (some notable exceptions being revelation dance, judgment, and status moves like spore). if you don't have a dedicated check like yveltal, arceus, mixed aerilate ray, ogre, or fc chans, you probably lose to normalize gar.
 
usually forum tours, they're more prestigious than room tours because you prep for them while in roomtours you just bring whatever's in your teambuilder
Oh definitely!

chansey on more offensive builds can work, because a) it's good at checking stuff like triage ray and pixilate diancie, which those builds struggle with, and b) it can serve as a strong win condition: if you're up vs balance and you kill their aegi that they need to imposter-proof mmx or whatever, you pretty much win.
I see. Cool!

gengar doesn't really use normalize to boost its attacks. instead it uses entrainment to give the target normalize as well so they can't hit him with most attacks (some notable exceptions being revelation dance, judgment, and status moves like spore). if you don't have a dedicated check like yveltal, arceus, mixed aerilate ray, ogre, or fc chans, you probably lose to normalize gar.
Ohhhh that makes sense! Thanks again!
 
Also why would Gengar be Normalize? I mean i know there isnt any Spectrate or Toxicate yet but still.
Normgar changes the opposing Pokemon's ability to Normalize so most attacks will be unable to hit Mega Gengar. Then normgar sets up with Quiver Dance or Shell Smash. Normgar should always be prepped for. Always. No exceptions. The simple fact of the matter is that because lots of people who are new to the metagame don't prep for normgar, a lot of low-to-mid ladder players get 6-0s with it, and due to this there are players who legitimately believe normgar is one of, if not, the best Pokemon in the meta. I've seen people use multiple normgars before and I've had people try to taunt me by saying that I'll 'lose to their normgar anyways'. Yes, normgar really is that centralizing in the lower parts of the ladder.

Primal Kyogre is one of the best Pokemon in the tier solely because its amazing defensive typing coupled with its fantastic Special Defense allows it to check quite a few Pokemon, but RegenVest variants counter Mega Gengar pretty hard. RegenVest can attack normgar with Revelation Dance and hit the others with Spectral Thief and can beat them that way. Yveltal is another mon that is good against it which is in the team I linked you, but the problem is that Yveltal doesn't take too kindly to Poison-type attacks--especially boosted ones.

Lately for me, Mega Gengar in general has been more intimidating than it has been threatening. I might even nominate it to drop in rank in the Viability Rankings. But if you ever find yourself having trouble, keep in mind there are two easy ways to beat Mega Gengar: RegenVest mons with Revelation Dance and Spectral Thief which is infallible on the right mon, and priority like -Ates (but not Mega Diancie due to Fairy resist), just keep Dazzling in mind. I've seen some people use Plates on Imposter Chansey but I'm not really a fan of that idea personally, but you can also try that. It's not really practical at all.

In BH, one thing to keep in mind is that while a Pokemon can be much more effective due to its unlimited moveset and ability, more Pokemon can be effective at checking said Pokemon with their own moveset and ability. Normalize Mega Gengar may be frustrating to face for newcomers but it's definitely not overpowered by any means.
 
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Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)

GAME FUN HAPPY TIMES
is a Community Contributor
HAIL STALL: a study

people seemed to like the post i made on pressure aero, so here's one on hail stall. the premises are pretty much the same, it was something that i thought had no use but turned out to be not terrible.

first off, here's the team:

simba (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Skill Swap

it be like that (Lapras) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Purify
- Scald
- Heal Order

needle man (Slowbro-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Twineedle
- Recover
- Haze
- Strength Sap / Purify

doge (Audino-Mega) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Psycho Shift / Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Shore Up
- Defog

Chansey (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Switcheroo
- Final Gambit
- Shore Up

Chansey (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze


this team has a lot of unorthodox sets, like fc dusk mane, twineedle slowbro, and flame orb mg mega audino (and, of course, lapras). that being said, it is the most standard hail stall i've been able to create so far, if that means anything.

so how exactly does hail stall win games? hail is a very interesting effect to have on the field, with its 1/16 per turn effect only resisted by safety goggles users and other ice types, and not being able to be bounced/removed unlike hazards (only displaced with other weather). this means that even if they slow uturn their wallbreaker in, he still takes 6.25% change and another 6.25% for every turn he stays in. it might not seem like a lot, but it can get some cool stuff done. for example, after a few rounds of hail chip, imposter is able to get the ohkos and 2hkos on stuff like mmy and diancie that it would otherwise miss out on. this can be the difference between taking out an annoying mon and having to deal with it coming in later on to kill ur guys.

another interesting effect of hail is that unlike hazards, it can put in work even if they stay in. the chip damage makes walls need to recover a bit more than normal, and when you stack it with other effects like poisoning from mega slowbro's twineedle or burn from chansey's will-o-wisp or lapras's scald, and knock off preventing leftovers or goggles from negating hail, defensive mons end up needing to burn their recovery pp super quickly even in the face of weak moves like scald from lapras or anchor shot from dusk mane.

now let me talk about the team. most of it is just based around handling common meta threats and statusing everything honestly, with fc dusk mane taking on ates, flame orb audino absorbing status from guys like ph xern, and unaware chansey shutting down special attackers like contrary mmy and triage ray. purify vs sap on slowbro is about ph regi/mmx vs trapper pdon/whip drum kart so its a choice on which one you want a bad mu vs

something i have to say for sure is that this team plays differently from normal stall when you use it. you have to keep different variables in mind; i mean, you might not even want hail sometimes, and going for status immediately can have bad repercussions down the road. it's not that different overall though.

is it a viable choice in the meta? hard to say. it performs well on ladder, getting me to #4 iirc, but then again most stalls do decently on ladder by the nature of it. the main question to ask here is whether having hail in the picture forces the opponent to play differently then they would be able to vs a normal stall team to the extent that you can better play around them, and honestly i feel like this situation is less clear cut than the aero one. below i've posted some replays, so you can look at those or try the team yourself or even make your own hail stall (post it here!!) to draw your own conclusions.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-833422681
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831950283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831953476

shoutouts to my man Ktütverde for inspiring me with his icy rock abomasnow hail stall in ou, keep it up man ur stuff is cool

thanks for reading everyone, i hope to see some other posts too. they dont have to be about some dumb concept, just meta discussion is fine. see you later
 
HAIL STALL: a study

people seemed to like the post i made on pressure aero, so here's one on hail stall. the premises are pretty much the same, it was something that i thought had no use but turned out to be not terrible.

first off, here's the team:

simba (Necrozma-Dusk-Mane) @ Steelium Z
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Spectral Thief
- Shore Up
- Skill Swap

it be like that (Lapras) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Knock Off
- Purify
- Scald
- Heal Order

needle man (Slowbro-Mega) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Twineedle
- Recover
- Haze
- Strength Sap / Purify

doge (Audino-Mega) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Psycho Shift / Will-O-Wisp
- Knock Off
- Shore Up
- Defog

Chansey (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Switcheroo
- Final Gambit
- Shore Up

Chansey (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze


this team has a lot of unorthodox sets, like fc dusk mane, twineedle slowbro, and flame orb mg mega audino (and, of course, lapras). that being said, it is the most standard hail stall i've been able to create so far, if that means anything.

so how exactly does hail stall win games? hail is a very interesting effect to have on the field, with its 1/16 per turn effect only resisted by safety goggles users and other ice types, and not being able to be bounced/removed unlike hazards (only displaced with other weather). this means that even if they slow uturn their wallbreaker in, he still takes 6.25% change and another 6.25% for every turn he stays in. it might not seem like a lot, but it can get some cool stuff done. for example, after a few rounds of hail chip, imposter is able to get the ohkos and 2hkos on stuff like mmy and diancie that it would otherwise miss out on. this can be the difference between taking out an annoying mon and having to deal with it coming in later on to kill ur guys.

another interesting effect of hail is that unlike hazards, it can put in work even if they stay in. the chip damage makes walls need to recover a bit more than normal, and when you stack it with other effects like poisoning from mega slowbro's twineedle or burn from chansey's will-o-wisp or lapras's scald, and knock off preventing leftovers or goggles from negating hail, defensive mons end up needing to burn their recovery pp super quickly even in the face of weak moves like scald from lapras or anchor shot from dusk mane.

now let me talk about the team. most of it is just based around handling common meta threats and statusing everything honestly, with fc dusk mane taking on ates, flame orb audino absorbing status from guys like ph xern, and unaware chansey shutting down special attackers like contrary mmy and triage ray. purify vs sap on slowbro is about ph regi/mmx vs trapper pdon/whip drum kart so its a choice on which one you want a bad mu vs

something i have to say for sure is that this team plays differently from normal stall when you use it. you have to keep different variables in mind; i mean, you might not even want hail sometimes, and going for status immediately can have bad repercussions down the road. it's not that different overall though.

is it a viable choice in the meta? hard to say. it performs well on ladder, getting me to #4 iirc, but then again most stalls do decently on ladder by the nature of it. the main question to ask here is whether having hail in the picture forces the opponent to play differently then they would be able to vs a normal stall team to the extent that you can better play around them, and honestly i feel like this situation is less clear cut than the aero one. below i've posted some replays, so you can look at those or try the team yourself or even make your own hail stall (post it here!!) to draw your own conclusions.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-833422681
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831950283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-831953476

shoutouts to my man Ktütverde for inspiring me with his icy rock abomasnow hail stall in ou, keep it up man ur stuff is cool

thanks for reading everyone, i hope to see some other posts too. they dont have to be about some dumb concept, just meta discussion is fine. see you later
Just some considerations; 0 atk on both Chansey; you are not using it and you can sort of stop strength sap from working.
I don't understand twinneedle over poison fang; it poisons less times and it doesn't badly poisons, which you'd like more on stall. Ph would abuse, even when purified, both kind of poisons and there's no power behind twinneedle to justify it over poison fang.
Fake out on imposter is bad because there is no illusion to break. You mention necrozma as being your -ate check but it doesn't take well mray -ate specs burst, which 2hkoes almost always, and unaware Chansey doesn't help much as it takes 42% minimum. There is a serious chance of 2hko after rocks.

If we wanted to diverge from full stall, I can't recommend enough -ate Kyurem-both would work. Fake out from B is particularly nasty here because it forces taking chip for another turn, and that team inflicts a lot of chip. Being immune to the weather you are summoning is nice too. Boomburst from W will deter pdon from entering the field because the thing is extremely threatening to your team. Other than switching in megabro you are going to lose (no burns, no scald, no koff, hits too hard for fc steels, power doesn't come from boosts so Chansey is fried, and can run trapping) and it can do whatever it wants that turn. Other uncommon options are scarf adapt kyu-w as you have perfect blizzards and it would still hit pretty hard.

A thing I discovered about sand (that applies to hail) is that it is a very good way of scouting abilities and items. It gives an eventual spore user much more security as you know what has googles on and what hasn't, and they are mostly running bounce at that point or it's obvious for other reasons.

That was all.
 
I'm not sure on Unaware Chansey for Hail (or Sand) stall since it's gonna get chipped every turn since it can't (or really, just shouldn't) run Leftovers. Plus, you have the usual issue of Chansey vs Knock Off/Trick.


Some Pokemon/sets you might consider...

Regice is a pretty good wall on Hail teams. It has an irritating number of weaknesses you'd need to cover, but 80/100/200 is otherwise pretty solid. 100 Special Attack isn't amazing, but being able to fire perfectly accurate Blizzards on occasion can be handy. This lets it do things such as pressure some common walls (like Giratina), keeps Ray from using it as set-up bait, and just applies some general pressure. It's not so strong it'd be a mandatory moveslot, but worth a thought if using it. It's also nicely slow at base 50 speed if you wanna pivot with it.

An example set that probably needs some work, inspired by old, standard meta Abomasnow stall sets.


It's snow time! (Regice) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield / Milk Drink
- Blizzard / Milk Drink



That Audino set gives me all sorts of Gen V vibes, which is pretty cool. You might also consider running Poison Heal Psycho Shift if you go that route. Sub is also a really good option on such sets since it helps you dodge Knock Off. You could even put such a set on Lapras or another Ice type and go full Stallrein. Like...


The Unfinished (Lapras) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Spiky Shield
- Psycho Shift
- Simple Beam

Min speed works too, but I wanted Sub to block as many slow U-Turns as possible so I didn't get my PH healing chipped.



You might also really consider a fast, ideally bulky, Mold Breaker sleep shuffler/hazard setter. A good shuffler can outright win some games on a stall team. Sadly, the perfect user for this, Froslass, is too slow and too frail by BH standards these days. (She used to be both fast and spin blocky at the same time.) So, that means you either want Weavile for hail immunity + speed, something like Deo-A for just speed, a Mewtwo if you wanna hit things too, or like Arceus if you want relatively quick bulk. Here's a set I was experimenting with, but might need a little work. If you're feeling ballsy, you can axe the recovery move for Spikes and run Wish support.



Arceus @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Stealth Rock
- Shore Up
- Whirlwind



I wish we had more viable Ice-types in the meta, especially fast ones or just dual-typed ones in general. (Or Mega-Froslass and Mega-Weavile!) It'd really help out since, right now, just about every decent option for a Hail team kinda leaves you scratching your head and going "I'm not really sure..." Primal weathers are also a really big problem too and there's not much you can do other than KO the offending Pokemon.
 
Fake out on imposter is bad because there is no illusion to break
What do you mean by this? What illusion? Is there something about Imposter I'm not following? Because I'm pretty sure Imposter just lets you turn into the opponent on switch in... Sorry, I'm just confused.

don't understand twinneedle over poison fang; it poisons less times and it doesn't badly poisons, which you'd like more on stall. Ph would abuse, even when purified, both kind of poisons and there's no power behind twinneedle to justify it over poison fang.
Agreed. It seemed kind of pointless. Toxic is good too, but Poison Fang can be used if you don't want it to be bounced back or miss or taunted. Actually Poison Fang is pretty smart...

I wish we had more viable Ice-types in the meta, especially fast ones or just dual-typed ones in general. (Or Mega-Froslass and Mega-Weavile!) It'd really help out
100% agree! We can also buff the ice type in general, but that's a topic for another day.

Also I would LOVE a Mega Weavile!! Weavile is my favorite Pokemon ever!
 
What do you mean by this? What illusion? Is there something about Imposter I'm not following? Because I'm pretty sure Imposter just lets you turn into the opponent on switch in... Sorry, I'm just confused.
Illusion is the signature ability of Zoroark, it lets you assume the aspect of the last pokemon (not fainted) of your team until you are hit, except for the hp percentage (and status), which is not disguised. The ability resets on switchout. It prevents imposter/transform from activating and in bh it caused some problems because everything could run it. Imagine that the opponent sends in Rayquaza against your Giratina. Rayquaza which is usually walled by Flash Fire Registeel and can hit supereffectively Giratina; it would be wise to switchout to Registeel. Except that Rayquaza is actually choice band illusion MMX and it just close combated your registeel to 0hp. That's not really fun, because now Rayquaza can sweep. There was counterplay to this; an example is fakeout, that breaks illusion, deals some damage to remember you which pokemon you are actually facing and makes them flinch, making them lose the turn. Because reasons illusion is banned, and there is little reason to run fake out, except on fakespeed sets. Chansey's pathetic fake out had reason to be run because of illusion, but without it is just dumb. I didn't help that it is scarf imposter; they would be forced to switchout afterwords anyway
Agreed. It seemed kind of pointless. Toxic is good too, but Poison Fang can be used if you don't want it to be bounced back or miss or taunted. Actually Poison Fang is pretty smart...
Toxic is a bad idea because it gets bounced, and can miss (poison fang may not poison, but at least it does a little damage). Also, because megabro is running prankster, toxic wouldn't hit dark types and dazzling.
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I don't understand twinneedle over poison fang; it poisons less times and it doesn't badly poisons, which you'd like more on stall. Ph would abuse, even when purified, both kind of poisons and there's no power behind twinneedle to justify it over poison fang.
Twineedle hits Steel types like Kartana and NDM so it’s not dead weight against them. Additionally, poison is useful for an opposing team that switches frequently, for it damages for more on the first turn, enough to outdamage Leftovers.
 
Twineedle hits Steel types like Kartana and NDM so it’s not dead weight against them. Additionally, poison is useful for an opposing team that switches frequently, for it damages for more on the first turn, enough to outdamage Leftovers.
Twineedle 11hkoes (eleven) kartana and 14hkoes NDM (and wouldn't poison them anyway). Also, poisoning can be outhealed, bad poisoning cannot.
 
Twineedle 11hkoes (eleven) kartana and 14hkoes NDM (and wouldn't poison them anyway). Also, poisoning can be outhealed, bad poisoning cannot.
It at least hits them (which Poison Fang cannot), and setup Kartana and NDM can't touch Slowbro-Mega in the meantime. Poisoning can be outhealed, but takes less time to force heals (draining PP) than bad poisoning if the opponent is mainly switching.
 

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