Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[anaconja]

A lot of people seem to be arguing that Z-Detect breaks the evasion clause, but I disagree. The second part of the evasion clause is important:



Z-Detect is a one-time use move that is directly linked to an item. Without said item Detect by itself does not increase evasion. Therefore I would argue that the evasion boost is derived from an item, and should not simply be swept under the rug as "against the evasion clause".

Z-Detect is a niche evasion boosting move that is essentially an extra-powerful BrightPowder that also (kinda) costs you one of your move slots as well as your item. It's not any more or less competitive than sleep, moves that can flinch/status, moves that can miss, etc.

Isn't that part of the Evasion Clause only relevant to regular Singles? The only reason it's allowed there is because mons can easily be forced out, removing their only way to boost their evasion. In 1v1, however, there is no switching, so it's impossible for the opponent to remove your evasion boosts unless they are Unaware or have Haze.

 

[ConnorJC]

Isn't that part of the Evasion Clause only relevant to regular Singles? The only reason it's allowed there is because mons can easily be forced out, removing their only way to boost their evasion. In 1v1, however, there is no switching, so it's impossible for the opponent to remove your evasion boosts unless they are Unaware or have Haze.

That's the text that people saying Z-Detect goes against the evasion clause are using. The "can't be forced out" thing also applies to other stat boosting moves like Swords Dance and whatnot but those aren't banned.

 

[The Official Glyx]

Z-Evasion has already had its own discussion in regards to all tiers, and the detailed wording for how the Evasion Clause works was in fact changed as a result of it:

Evasion Clause will be defined as: A Pokemon may not have the moves Double Team or Minimize in its moveset.

If any Z Evasion moves turn out to be a problem in specific tiers, Tier Leaders may deal with them in whichever way they deem fit. If they become a problem a cross all tiers, Z Evasion moves might be included in the Evasion Clause. No reason to globally ban elements that have never been properly tested.

click here for source, as well as a link to the thread so you can read up

With this in mind, any and all Evasion Clause arguments are now off the table. That said, discussion is still open for banning Detect, and potentially other Evasion boosting Z-moves, as their own individual element:

• Should they be banned en masse, much like how every accuracy dropping move was banned, rather than just Mud Slap?
• Should only Detect be banned?
• Should nothing at all be banned?

 

[The Official Glyx]

Hi, in non suspect-related news, I'd like to announce the end of my ongoing ladder campaign with the account Thanks for the gxe, as well as the recently made account G-1000. My initial intent with the gxe account was similar to that of multiple of my other team testing accounts, in that I just went with spamming a single combination of Pokemon for most/all of my battles until I had had enough laddering for the day. Fortunately enough, I had managed to get a pretty high ranking on the account by the end of the laddering session, and with the interest to see how high I could get the account, thus came the complex network of sniping and counter teaming that some of you may be more familiar with than others.

Through carefully built teams and well-timed ladder searches, I was able to push further past my limits than ever before! The process did become rather tiresome at times, due to periods of the ladder being dry, as well as the ever-persistent daily elo decay. After all this time, I believe I can say, without a doubt in my mind, that going for ladder snipes really isn't worth it unless you've got a point to prove, whether that point be one of self-validation, validation from others, or even both. My own ultimate point in doing all of this was just to see what the limits of my abilities were when I began taking advantage of every resource available to me, though it would be untruthful to not include my own vain desire to be solidified as one of the "greats" of this generation. It wasn't until today that I finally realized all I was doing at this point was just beating a dead horse. Everyone is entitled to their own definition of what it means to be fulfilled, but for me, fulfillment in 1v1 means that I be having fun in what I do, regardless of win or loss; somewhere along the line, I had lost track of that ideal, instead seeking fulfillment from the rush of dopamine that comes from getting a successful snipe, only to be rewarded with the immediate stress right after of having to consider what I'll do for the next snipe, ultimately only creating for myself a repeating cycle of anxiety.

One thing I can say with certainty about the whole process is that sniping is definitely doable for everyone, though some are definitely better at it than others. Different people have different levels of comfort when it comes to how "reliably" one thing takes on another thing; some believe that the accuracy of Head Smash is reliable enough for a counter team, whereas some others don't even feel comfortable with using moves like Hyper Beam. Ultimately, sniping and general teambuilding are both quite similar in that they require you, as the player, to determine what amount of risk is acceptable for the team you intend to ladder with. As always, the best way to learn and hone your strengths is simply just to play until they've been burned into your brain.

That said, I don't wanna go into too much detail just yet, as I will be saving all the more information-intensive chunks for the Guide to 1v1 post that I'll finally have time to begin writing soon.... I also don't wanna leave you with just words, so here, have the teambuilder of teams that I used on my incognito browser for sniping! Here's hoping you potential snipers can draw inspiration from here, now that I no longer need it: https://pokepast.es/d3949de19b529011

Final ranks:

Thanks for the gxe

G-1000

I don't remember playing a random battle match...

 

[Ginger Princess]

now that osra has quit laddering, looks like she'll be an ro soon

 

[edudittA]

Time to rehash the Sleep argument here......

Was discussing this in the 1v1 room yesterday, and thought I could throw more light on what I believe to be a flawed argument from the anti-ban side...


People kept throwing this reason that if Sleep needs to be banned at all, only those with imperfect accuracy need to be banned, because theses cause RNG on the part of those sleep move users. What I find as "flawed" in this logic is that the people who were saying this seemed to be forgetting that the "accuracy of those sleep-causing moves" causes lesser loss of control in the game than the "number of sleep turns" which is inherent by using Sleep-inducing moves (however accurate they may be).

Another argument that has been, and was, thrown around was that if Sleep needs to be banned because of whatever RNG is involved in it, then moves which can miss also need to be banned because of similar reasons. Again, what I find flawed in this logic is that even if the inaccurate moves, like Hyper Beam or Head Smash did land on the opponent, your opponent on the field can be EVd to survive hits from the not-completely-accurate moves. In the case of sleep-inducing moves, the number of turns one is asleep can range anywhere from 1 to 3. During this "sleep", do note that the opponent cannot be damaged apart from the noteworthy Sleep Talk Heracross TI mentioned in a post long time ago. And also, the opponent can put the user to sleep for many turns. This means that the Pokemon on the field needs to be ready not just for the (maximum of) 3 turns it can be put to sleep, but for many more turns, which is simply impractical to ask for. This impracticality is not posed by moves like Hyper Beam or Head Smash, because even when they land (assuming they KO), they finish the match, or they don't; their landing on the opponent does not call for overbearing bulk, because they have certain drawbacks in their usage.

I'm sure many hyenas would take this as the opportunity to pounce on me, and use this argument against Z. But, this is not a discussion about how something is banned, but something else is not. If Z-Moves are not banned now, using this a precedent, you could get that banned at a later point in time. But, for the time being, let this be about sleep (my request, you could ignore it, as well..... /me shrug)

 

[ryyjyywyy]

Time to rehash the Sleep argument here......

Was discussing this in the 1v1 room yesterday, and thought I could throw more light on what I believe to be a flawed argument from the anti-ban side...


People kept throwing this reason that if Sleep needs to be banned at all, only those with imperfect accuracy need to be banned, because theses cause RNG on the part of those sleep move users. What I find as "flawed" in this logic is that the people who were saying this seemed to be forgetting that the "accuracy of those sleep-causing moves" causes lesser loss of control in the game than the "number of sleep turns" which is inherent by using Sleep-inducing moves (however accurate they may be).

banning a move for having subpar accuracy is retarded
#ban zap cannon, inferno, hydro pump, thunder, hurricane, blizzard, focus blast etc
dumb as shit reason to ban something

Another argument that has been, and was, thrown around was that if Sleep needs to be banned because of whatever RNG is involved in it, then moves which can miss also need to be banned because of similar reasons. Again, what I find flawed in this logic is that even if the inaccurate moves, like Hyper Beam or Head Smash did land on the opponent, your opponent on the field can be EVd to survive hits from the not-completely-accurate moves. In the case of sleep-inducing moves, the number of turns one is asleep can range anywhere from 1 to 3. During this "sleep", do note that the opponent cannot be damaged apart from the noteworthy Sleep Talk Heracross TI mentioned in a post long time ago. And also, the opponent can put the user to sleep for many turns. This means that the Pokemon on the field needs to be ready not just for the (maximum of) 3 turns it can be put to sleep, but for many more turns, which is simply impractical to ask for. This impracticality is not posed by moves like Hyper Beam or Head Smash, because even when they land (assuming they KO), they finish the match, or they don't; their landing on the opponent does not call for overbearing bulk, because they have certain drawbacks in their usage.

this was not the argument thrown around, the argument used was "since the main sleep users in the tier (breloom, smeargle, vivillon, jumpluff, and even sub venusaur) don't rely on sleep turns and their win chance comes down to hitting their sleep move, banning sleep moves for 'being uncompetitive' means you would have to ban other moves that can make you lose by missing"
jumpluff example battle:
T1: sleep powder
T2: substitute, opponent wakes first possible turn, breaks sub
T3: sleep powder
T4: substitute, opponent wakes first possible turn, breaks sub
etc.
Since jumpluff can sub 4 times and really only needs 2 turns of sleep to win (in matchups it can win), the chances of getting the sleep turns you need are approximately 99.6% (counting 5th sleep powder if they manage to turn 1 wake on every sub)
after 2 sleep powder, your chances of having gotten sleep turns needed is 90%
with these "speed trap" strategies, the only rng you really need to worry about is being able to hit your moves, whats uncompetitive about that?
vivillon has even better chances of winning than this (especially with leftovers giving an extra 1-2 subs assuming they T1 wake every time)
smeargle and breloom are basically guaranteed wins since they dont miss (on mons that can be spored and are slower).

with this strategy, you really arent relying on sleep turns as they are almost guaranteed to happen, you are really only trying to hit your attack to win. hitting your moves to win shouldnt be considered uncompetitive and bannable, and if it is, then most any moves that can miss should be considered bannable.

another argument YOU used was "opponents facing this strategy feel like its inconsistent and needs a ban" or "you cant control how long you sleep and so warrants a ban".
feeling like something is inconsistent and using that as a ban reason without having any statistics to back it up also shouldnt be taken seriously as an argument to ban something, else people could say "i feel hydro cannon is inconsistent so it needs a ban" (or any move really).

 

[Ape711]

God I have no idea how to throw my idea into the ring here but here goes nothing

Sleep is, in one word, bonk. It has a way to beat almost everything, and in the very next game, with the same two Pokemon, the outcome could be the exact opposite. Even Spore isn't immune to this, as sleep turns are also completely RNG reliant. Sure, grass types exist, but this is 1v1, and so they very well might not exist, and besides, some sleep moves . So when something like sleep pops up and creates a completely RNG based playing field, I ask this question: If something removes skill from the game, and instead makes it completely up to Random, is it worth banning just to preserve the Competitiveness? But even more importantly than that, sleep has the ability to make a Pokemon good (or at least usable). This is a major problem, since that means you can slap sleep on anything and make it usable, when it should be the other way around, that the moves only work because of what the Pokemon as a whole offers. And I really do mean that you can slap sleep on any Pokemon and have it at least usable. Heck, I did it with Poliwhirl. POLIWHIRL! And it was without using Eviolite.

Poliwhirl @ Wide Lens
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hypnosis
- Belly Drum
- Waterfall
- Wake-Up Slap

So basically: Sleep makes the Pokemon good, the Pokemon doesn't make Sleep good. And is that truly healthy for a competitive metagame? I get that there is going to be a distinction from the good sleepers and the Poliwhirls, but the point is that there shouldn't be one thing that can make something viable when that Pokemon has no other good qualities. I guess that Poliwhirl has Belly Drum and stuff but the point stands that would there be anything besides sleep that would make Poliwhirl usable? No. But does this mean we should BAN sleep? Well that's for you to decide. I personally think that a Suspect Test should happen, but y'know

Who hasn't heard that before?

 

[Kowasabii]

I still think room tours should be made Bo5 instead of single and double elim. It will reflect more what actual tourneys are like and be good practice

 

[Ape711]

I still think room tours should be made Bo5 instead of single and double elim. It will reflect more what actual tourneys are like and be good practice

I do like the idea of having games be in a best of blank format, (personally I think it would help me win some tours) but I think Bo5 might make the tours too long and dragged out. I think Bo3 would be good to have though, maybe making it longer bouts as the tour goes on (i.e. the first round is just one game, then it would become Bo3 for the majority of the tour, and then the finals could be a Bo5).

 

[The Official Glyx]

I still think room tours should be made Bo5 instead of single and double elim. It will reflect more what actual tourneys are like and be good practice

If you're referring to official tours, they can only be single elimination, due to Scrappie's limitations in interpreting the tournament data.
Otherwise, feel free to request double/triple/quadruple/etc elimination non-official room tours whenever.

 

[Kowasabii]

If you're referring to official tours, they can only be single elimination, due to Scrappie's limitations in interpreting the tournament data.
Otherwise, feel free to request double/triple/quadruple/etc elimination non-official room tours whenever.

I mean best of 3 or 5 not double or triple elim. So like each round whoever wins 2-3 battles first moves on to the next round

 

[The Official Glyx]

I mean best of 3 or 5 not double or triple elim. So like each round whoever wins 2-3 battles first moves on to the next round

That isn't doable in room tours at all-
That's something you'd have to bug Zarel about, and I doubt he'd jump on that idea.

 

[Mubs]

Time to rehash the Sleep argument here......

Was discussing this in the 1v1 room yesterday, and thought I could throw more light on what I believe to be a flawed argument from the anti-ban side...


People kept throwing this reason that if Sleep needs to be banned at all, only those with imperfect accuracy need to be banned, because theses cause RNG on the part of those sleep move users. What I find as "flawed" in this logic is that the people who were saying this seemed to be forgetting that the "accuracy of those sleep-causing moves" causes lesser loss of control in the game than the "number of sleep turns" which is inherent by using Sleep-inducing moves (however accurate they may be).

Another argument that has been, and was, thrown around was that if Sleep needs to be banned because of whatever RNG is involved in it, then moves which can miss also need to be banned because of similar reasons. Again, what I find flawed in this logic is that even if the inaccurate moves, like Hyper Beam or Head Smash did land on the opponent, your opponent on the field can be EVd to survive hits from the not-completely-accurate moves. In the case of sleep-inducing moves, the number of turns one is asleep can range anywhere from 1 to 3. During this "sleep", do note that the opponent cannot be damaged apart from the noteworthy Sleep Talk Heracross TI mentioned in a post long time ago. And also, the opponent can put the user to sleep for many turns. This means that the Pokemon on the field needs to be ready not just for the (maximum of) 3 turns it can be put to sleep, but for many more turns, which is simply impractical to ask for. This impracticality is not posed by moves like Hyper Beam or Head Smash, because even when they land (assuming they KO), they finish the match, or they don't; their landing on the opponent does not call for overbearing bulk, because they have certain drawbacks in their usage.

I'm sure many hyenas would take this as the opportunity to pounce on me, and use this argument against Z. But, this is not a discussion about how something is banned, but something else is not. If Z-Moves are not banned now, using this a precedent, you could get that banned at a later point in time. But, for the time being, let this be about sleep (my request, you could ignore it, as well..... /me shrug)

Atti, I didn’t want to do this right now, I wanted to wait ‘till discussion died down, but I have to contribute now..



Well Hello guys, Mubs here with the talk you’ve been waiting for, the request of a public suspect test for sleep. Specifically the moves, Sleep Powder, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss, Spore, etc. Sleep moves.


C1: Sleep As a Mechanic


Essentially, sleep is a status condition that that can be inflicted on other pokemon and oneself. It allows the asleep pokemon to used the moves sleep talk and snore and Allows enemy pokemon to use the moves. It also Incapacitates a pokemon for 1-3 turns, allowing the opposing pokemon to do things without getting hit.


C2: Why am I proposing a suspect test for it?


There are a few things that make sleep evidently more powerful in 1v1:

• No sleep clause, or no sleep clause that affects how 1v1 is played.
• You cannot switch, meaning you are basically immobilized for the turns that you are asleep, and cannot do anything while sleeping (outside of sleep talk, but thats niche asf)
• The pokemon that is affected by the sleep status condition is easily setup on.

The main reason I feel sleep should be publicly suspected is because it is, in my eyes, Uncompetitive. Allow me to put the definition of uncompetitiveness:

Definition

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant


A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.

B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.

C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).

This statement is the most applicable here:

C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

C2A: What makes this uncompetitive?


The thing that makes sleep uncompetitive is the immobilizational aspect to it, as you basically cannot do anything, while the opponent sets up, with hardly any drawback to it.


I also like to refer back to this line:


D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).


For example, I see a lot of people telling me “ban air slash because it has a 30% chance to flinch”. The thing is, no one preps for an air slash flinch, but almost everyone has to keep a mon like Jumpluff in their minds when teambuilding. A team of mons that would otherwise be solid can easily lose to a sleep user because they do not have a way of handling it, or touching it. Such a thing limits how you build.


Well that’s all for the uncompetitive stuff, let me talk about the sleep abusers.


C3: Sleep Abusers

*Imma try to be Brief on most of these as they have mostly been covered*

Jumpluff

Let’s talk Jumpluff First:

Jumpluff @ Wide Lens / BrightPowder
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 48 HP / 208 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect

This is a standard Jumpluff set. If you want matchups: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-resources.3592842/page-19#post-7890427

This set loses to some things, taunts, Charizard tech. Here’s a set that beats that stuff

Jumpluff @ Grassium Z
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Infestation

If you have a Problem with accuracy:

Jumpluff @ Wide Lens / BrightPowder
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 48 HP / 208 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Sweet Scent
Sweet scent takes out the rng aspect of trying to hit sleep powders.

Snorlax

Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Hex
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast / Will-O-Wisp
Get your sleep off and go crazy, more detail about it here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-metagame-discussion.3587523/page-53#post-7798177

Vivillon

Vivillon-Marine @ Leftovers
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sleep Powder
- Substitute
- Hurricane
- Quiver Dance

This thing is one of the greatest sleep users around. With 97.5 Accuracy on its sleep move, it is able to be more consistent. You basically setup on slower mons then win.

Breloom

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 32 HP / 36 Def / 224 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Toxic / Snatch / Endure / Protect

Breloom @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 32 HP / 36 Def / 224 SpD / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Snatch
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Spore


Subseed with spore. Not much else to say besides the fact that Darkium Lets you win some MCs.

Smeargle

Smeargle @ Quick Claw / Sitrus Berry / Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Imprison
- Transform
- Substitute / Lovely Kiss / King's Shield

You’ve seen these mons.

C3B: Banned sleep abusers

Snorlax

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-metagame-discussion.3587523/page-63 Here is the stuff

Darkrai

Darkrai, while contestable for a suspect if sleep is gone, is a complete monster with it, being able to set up to +4 and beat almost anything

Darkrai @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

For legitamacy reasons Here’s a calc for one of its biggest checks, spdef Magearna

+4 252 SpA Darkrai All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 417-491 (114.5 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

C4: Closing statement.


Overall, I feel that, due to to the Immobilizational aspect of sleep, and the fact that it plays very major roles in the banning of two pokemon, makes it worthy of a public suspect test.

Agree with me? Disagree with me? Go out there are get reqs whenever a suspect happens, and cast your vote for this suspect. Until then, only time will tell. Also, heres a poll, I would like to know where the community as a whole stands: https://www.strawpoll.me/16999683

Thank you for reading, and have a great day


Mubs out.

 

[lancert]

Hello everyone, some people don't know that I'm currently using a recent account to exceed my limits. Indeed, this account is malbarr974. The ultimate goal of this account is to exceed 85 gxe.

Here is proof that it is me and a team I used:

https://pokepast.es/277fe6507cddf498

 

[Chloe]

Looks like we're getting Custap Berry in Gen 7 after all.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1072342667219165186

Should be fun to see new Custap Endure / Sturdy sets emerging. Interested to see if any former common sets return to their former glory.

 

[cherryb0ng]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-764481759
Shadow sneak turn 1, nice

 

[Kaif]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-764481759
Shadow sneak turn 1, nice

his play was correct incase you were choice banded, I don't see what ur trying to accomplish by posting a replay with a one liner from 1050 elo-ish

 

[cherryb0ng]

his play was correct incase you were choice banded, I don't see what ur trying to accomplish by posting a replay with a one liner from 1050 elo-ish

you're right. Sorry. That avoids stab moves :)

 

[The Official Glyx]

Z-Detect [Suspect Test]

credits for finding a fitting song go to MaceMaster
​

Z-Detect has been the center of discussion (for more reasons than one) for the past few weeks, and with the council agreeing that something needed to happen with it, here we are. The suspect will last until December 28th, 1 PM GMT-5. Reqs will be obtained through laddering to gain GXE. There will not be a suspect ladder available, so fresh suspect accounts will have to be made with ZDS (Z-Detect Suspect) somewhere in the name in order to be counted for votes. Once you've achieved the reqs, be sure to post a picture of the account's rank with your name in the top right corner in order to verify that you do in fact have control over the account. Because I'm a badgeless loser, I cannot get more than 15 people added to a private smogon conversation at a time, so please message me your vote via private conversation on smogon.

how to submit votes

1. Go to this link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/conversations/add
2. Under "Recipients" type in "Osra" and click on the icon that has my name and profile picture on it as it appears.
3. Type in your vote, reasoning for your vote (if you have any), as well as your personal thoughts on the reqs used for the suspect test (how they compare to the Mimikyu suspect reqs of 75% GXE within a minimum of 100 games, whether they were too easy/hard, etc).
4. Click the "Start conversation" button at the bottom of the screen and your vote will have been submitted!

The minimum vote % in order to ban is a 60% supermajority. The reqs for this suspect are:

Minimum GXE = 75%
GXE + Battle count >= 135

Qualifying examples

ZDS Osra
75% GXE + 60 Total Battles
ZDS Glyx
78% GXE + 57 Total Battles

These won't get you qualified!

ZDS arsO
74% GXE + 61 Total Battles
ZDS xylG
35% GXE + 100 Total Battles

Z-Detect became an issue of uncompetitiveness once it gained more mainstream attention and usage. The premise of strategies that involve Z-Detect is simply just to use the move and fish for a dodge so the user can get an opportunity to do pretty much whatever they want. Why Z-Detect in particular became an issue over any of the other Z-Evasion moves is because it provides the user an Evasion boost at +3 priority, in addition to a free turn of protection from damage and status moves on the turn of use, while none of the other moves that boost evasion with their Z-effect are anywhere near as helpful for boosting evasion. This factor makes Z-Detect far more splashable than the other Z-Evasion moves by the means of being less reliant on going first or being bulky, such that basically anything can use it and become capable of dodging enough attacks to snag a win. What separates this from relying on Brightpowder or Lax Incense for dodges is the fact that Z-Detect's evasion increase provides users a far more likely chance to dodge, hence, far more battles being left up to whether or not your moves connect than if your opponent were only using Brightpowder/Lax Incense. Is a 25% dodge enough of an increase to matter? That's what we're going to find out.

We've already had weeks of discussion, but discussion is still welcome and encouraged!

 

[ryyjyywyy]

Z-Detect [Suspect Test]

credits for finding a fitting song go to MaceMaster
​

Z-Detect has been the center of discussion (for more reasons than one) for the past few weeks, and with the council agreeing that something needed to happen with it, here we are. The suspect will last until December 28th, 1 PM GMT-5. Reqs will be obtained through laddering to gain GXE. There will not be a suspect ladder available, so fresh suspect accounts will have to be made with ZDS (Z-Detect Suspect) somewhere in the name in order to be counted for votes. Once you've achieved the reqs, be sure to post a picture of the account's rank with your name in the top right corner in order to verify that you do in fact have control over the account. Everyone who posts their qualifying reqs here will be added to a private smogon conversation for casting votes. The minimum vote % in order to ban is a 60% supermajority. The reqs for this suspect are:

Minimum GXE = 75%
GXE + Battle count >= 135

Qualifying examples

ZDS Osra
75% GXE + 60 Total Battles
ZDS Glyx
78% GXE + 57 Total Battles

These won't get you qualified!

ZDS arsO
74% GXE + 61 Total Battles
ZDS xylG
35% GXE + 100 Total Battles

Z-Detect became an issue of uncompetitiveness once it gained more mainstream attention and usage. The premise of strategies that involve Z-Detect is simply just to use the move and fish for a dodge so the user can get an opportunity to do pretty much whatever they want. Why Z-Detect in particular became an issue over any of the other Z-Evasion moves is because it provides the user an Evasion boost at +3 priority, in addition to a free turn of protection from damage and status moves on the turn of use, while none of the other moves that boost evasion with their Z-effect are anywhere near as helpful for boosting evasion. This factor makes Z-Detect far more splashable than the other Z-Evasion moves by the means of being less reliant on going first or being bulky, such that basically anything can use it and become capable of dodging enough attacks to snag a win. What separates this from relying on Brightpowder or Lax Incense for dodges is the fact that Z-Detect's evasion increase provides users a far more likely chance to dodge, hence, far more battles being left up to whether or not your moves connect than if your opponent were only using Brightpowder/Lax Incense. Is a 25% dodge enough of an increase to matter? That's what we're going to find out.

We've already had weeks of discussion, but discussion is still welcome and encouraged!

got reqs af on zdsryyeatsasses; 75.6gxe + 60 games for 135.6

 

[Clouds]

Reqs on ZDS Idle, 78.3 GXE + 57 games, 135.3 total.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

What makes bad Pokemon (PU+NU Pokemon) perform well, or at least decently, in 1v1?

 

[Chickenpie2]

1v1 has a completely different environment to any other metagame, especially 6v6. Pokemon such as Mega Charizards, Mega Gyarados and Dragonite, many psychic, steel and fairy types are at the top of the food chain, and so any pokemon that can manage these pokemon well can thrive in 1v1. Additionally, there are no entry hazards like stealth rock or toxic spikes, so fire type Pokemon for example do not need to fear losing 25%-50% upon switch-in. Another big thing is boosting, especially defensive boosting, as you dont need to worry about switching out and losing all your boosts. There are also many strategies that are simply unviable in any other metagame but work well in 1v1 such as Sleep Speedtraps, Leech Seed stall and Encore Disable. A couple of examples are Incineroar (PU, but B- in 1v1 due to great abilities in Intimidate and Blaze, and boosting moves like Swords Dance and Bulk Up, and also good typing and decent bulk) and Meloetta (RU currently but is A- in 1v1 due to very good bulk and typing, access to Calm Mind, and being able to survive most neutral hits and firing back powerful Z Hyper Beams to OHKO back) and Jumpluff (PU but A- in 1v1 because of sleep bs)

 

[Olivine]

Reqs met on ZDS Olivine. 61 games, 75 GXE