3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?
There are four criteria for a Steel-type pivot that will use Doom Desire for it to be successful in the current CAP Metagame.
A: We need to have good opportunities to switch in and use Doom Desire effectively.
B: We need to have good adequate offensive presence in order to use Doom Desire without too much risk due to the amount of Steel-type resists.
C: We need to be able to exert pressure on Tapu Lele.
D: We need to be wary of being overshadowed by other established Steel-type pivots, particularly Ferrothorn and Heatran.
Having read the posts in the thread so far, everyone seems to be on the same page on points
A and
B, given the answers to
GMars's first batch of questions.
C: To be clear,
I am not arguing that CAP26 has to counter Tapu Lele. What I am saying, though, is that any Steel-type
pivot worth running in the current CAP Metagame can prevent Tapu Lele from spamming STAB, terrain-boosted Psychic against most predicted switch-ins and its accurate STAB Moonblast against Pursuit trappers. If Tapu Lele sees a Ferrothorn on the opposing team, it has to use consider using Focus Blast to deal with it. This needs to be the same for CAP26. If CAP26 prevents Tapu Lele to use its STAB moves freely and force it to consider using its weaker coverage moves, CAP26 can effectively compete with the metagame's other Steel-types, as they do the same thing.
The extra challenge with this is that CAP26 is using Doom Desire as its Steel-type STAB option. Given that we don't know CAP26's secondary typing, it will either need Corkscrew Crash or a secondary Steel-type STAB to deal with Tapu Lele properly. The first option forces CAP26 to use the team's Z-Crystal, and Z-Crystals are in high demand in CAP right now. Lots of sweepers and other pivots use them. If CAP26 HAS to run Steelium Z just to deal with Tapu Lele, it will suffer in its competition with other Steel-types. Similarly, we should avoid having to run two Steel-type STAB moves if we can, as that straps us for moveslots later down the line. If CAP26's moveset starts with Doom Desire / secondary Steel-type STAB, it's going to need some really good moves in its last two slots, and overwriting Doom Desire with a better, more generally good move becomes more possible.
Thus, it should be imperative that CAP26's secondary STAB a) doesn't make CAP26 neutral to Tapu Lele's STAB attacks and b) can deal appreciable damage to Tapu Lele. It doesn't have to OHKO Tapu Lele because, again, the goal of the project is not to counter Tapu Lele. Remember that Heatran pressures Tapu Lele with just Magma Storm or Lava Plume; it's entirely possible that CAP26 can as well (read: though, we also don't have to make a copy of Heatran). However, to encourage CAP26's use Doom Desire and its use on teams as a Steel-type
pivot, we have to take pressuring Tapu Lele seriously into account for this project, especially during the Typing stage.
To this end, the following secondary typings will be undesirable for this project because Tapu Lele is immune to or resists them: Dragon, Fighting, Psychic.
D] Now, if we want CAP26 to stand out in the teambuilding process, it would be better if it didn't compete with established, Steel-type pivots. The two I'm going to pick on are Ferrothorn and Heatran. Between Spikes, Leech Seed, Knock Off, and the rare but deadly Thunder Wave, on top of Ferrothorn's capable two-move coverage, I'm very sure that a Steel / Grass CAP26 would either be overshadowed by Ferrothorn. Or, if we saturate CAP26's movepool with enough utility to make it more desirable than Ferrothorn, Doom Desire will not be on our movests. Bottomline, there are other effective typings we can pick without having to compete with Ferrothorn, the juggernaut among the current metagame's Steel-type pivots.
Heatran is next. Although it can be worn down quickly, its offensive presence is a potent force in the metagame - one of the best, as the the Metagame Council's nerfs (spoilers) will not move it down very far in the next VR update. Trying to compete with Heatran's splashability seems to be difficult as well, though less so than Ferrothorn.
Thus, I find Grass to be undesirable as a secondary typing, and Fire to be a little difficult to pull off.
Now, what about the other Steel-types in the metagame? Let's look at a couple quickly:
Magearna (Fairy): Magearna faces the issue of being worn down very quickly as a pivot, as it doesn't have the Leftovers recovery like Heatran or Stealth Rock utility.
Celesteela (Flying): As I have joked about on Discord, Celesteela is "allergic to Knock Off" - that is, if Celesteela loses its Leftovers, it's extremely hard to keep it healthy, even with Leech Seed.
Kitsunoh (Ghost): Kitsunoh has to run a fast, Choice Scarf set. I doubt that CAP26's main niche will involve a Choice Scarf, so I think we can differentiate it from Kitsunoh as well, especially if CAP26 ends up having more bulk.
4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive
Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?
Given my answers to question 3, I've come up with my 3 favorite typings:
Steel / Ghost, Steel / Ground, and Steel / Flying.
Steel / Ghost is a very capable secondary typing. First, with a STAB attack that hits most of the metagame for neutral damage, CAP26 won't
have to fill its second and third moveslots for attacking moves, leaving more flexibility in an otherwise inflexible movepool. Though Ghost-type STAB might not hit to many of the Steel resists in the metagame for super effective damage, it hits almost the entire metagame neutrally, and certainly will dent most offensive switch-ins,
all in one moveslot, meaning less prediction on CAP26's part. Second, defensively, Steel / Ghost is an amazing defensive typing. With Aurumoth, Tapu Lele, and Mega Alakazam commonly running Focus Blast (and Aurumoth and Tapu Lele's best item being Fightinium Z), as well as Mega Medicham running High Jump Kick, Steel / Ghost has excellent switch-in opportunities against these Pokemon, can generally force them out, and set Doom Desire relatively freely. Additionally, it has a great match up against Magearna, which commonly runs Focus Blast as well, Tornadus-T which, again, sometimes runs Focus Blast, and Greninja, which is more commonly running Low Kick. These, in addition to Steel-types' normal good matchups, are great pivoting opportunities. Steel / Ghost is a great way to balance offensive and defensive utility.
Steel / Ghost fulfills all four criteria that I've outlined above in my answer to question 3.
A: Opportunities to switch in - Steel / Ghost has many
relevant resistances
B: Offensive pressure with its secondary typing - neutral STAB against the most of the metagame
C: Exert pressure against Tapu Lele - super effective secondary STAB achieves this very well
D: Differentiate from established pivots (see Kitsunoh comment above)
Some counterarguments:
My problem with Steel/Ghost is the pursuit weakness.
This doesn't give enough credit to Steel / Ghost's positives, its amazing neutral coverage among its STAB options alone, and its ability to take on Pokemon that run Fighting-type coverage. There are ways that we can get around Pursuit if that's desired, through ability and movepool. Furthermore, because of Ghost's great neutral coverage, CAP26 can use its 3rd moveslot to get around these checks if it needs to. Also, Pursuit can be played around with double switches, so it's not a fatal weakness. Finally, CAP26 will use Doom Desire, which means that many of its KOes occur when it's not even on the field. Therefore, if CAP26 gets a kill with Doom Desire, the Pursuit Pokemon cannot have the free switch-in to CAP26 - it's not even on the field! Basically, without that free turn to freely switch in that Pursuit trapper, CAP26 will have an easier time against them in a real battle. Also, Pursuit trap is realistically one of Steel / Ghost's few vulnerabilities, so this weakness might be appreciated.
Saying Steel / Ghost is “essentially perfect” is quite an exaggeration. Having both a Knock Off and Pursuit weakness is quite devastating to a pivot, as it makes it less safe to switch in and less safe to switch out, respectively. Pursuit is particularly detrimental because it makes it much less safe for CAP 26 to switch out, which is the entire role of a pivot to begin with. I feel like people downplay this point quite a bit because it's "only one thing" but most Pursuit weak Pokemon are going to struggle as a pivot. To prove my point, the only viable Ghost-type pivot is Kitsunoh, which is not only a Steel / Ghost pivot we would have to compete with, but also only rose to viability because of Necturna, which is now nerfed. I also don't think Steel / Ghost provides much in the way of offensive utility. Sure it can hit most things neutrally but if you're not able to hit many relevant Doom Desire resist super-effectively then the potency of Doom Desire would become lessened as a result. The only relevant ones you'd hit are Slowking, Kitsunoh, and yourself. That's it. For these reasons, I'd also advise against Steel / Psychic.
Kitsunoh and CAP26 will serve entirely different purposes. Kitsunoh is fast, frail, and even if it had a half-way decent Special Attack, wouldn't be able to pull off Doom Desire well because it's not a pivot like Future Sight Slowking is. Furthermore, you're right that Kitsunoh rose to viability because of Necturna, but Kitsunoh's stats are what hold it back. In fact, it's still in use despite the Necturna nerf due to Tapu Lele's prominence in the metagame, and now it can check Stone Edge Mega Crucibelle. 80 / 103 / 85 / 55 / 80 / 110 stats just wouldn't cut it in this kind of a metagame, but you know what's the only thing that's keeping it relevant at all? Its unique resist palate from Steel / Ghost, combined with an excellent STAB attack in Shadow Strike. Finally, I think you're underestimating Ghost's neutral coverage against the metagame. Remember that, against offensive switch-ins, the Pokemon that
GMars has decided us to focus on, taking a good 30%-40% means a lot, especially against switch-ins like Heatran, Krilowatt, and Volkraken.
So, I don't think CAP26 and Kitsunoh realistically compete with one another - they play entirely different roles. Furthermore, I think you've misconstrued why Kitsunoh is relevant at all, sure it rose to prominence
because of Necturna, but it's still relevant because of its Steel / Ghost typing. Finally, Ghost-type STAB is neutrally good across the metagame, so it can serve its purpose of forcing switches.
Next, let's look at Steel / Ground:
Steel / Ground is more offensive than Steel / Ghost, but it provides a good amount defensive utility for its more offensive nature. It hits many of Doom Desire's resists, but leaves some key ones like Celesteela, Zapdos, and Rotom-W. Furthermore, it doesn't hit Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, and Mega Latios, which can force it out. Ground-type moves can be paired with other moves that don't necessarily provide complete neutral coverage as well. I think it's a neat choice that also balances offensive and defense.
Steel / Ground also fulfills all four criteria that I've outlined above in my answer to question 3.
A: Opportunities to switch in - Steel / Ground can block opposing Volt Switch from Tapu Koko and Assault Vest Magearna, can stop Fleur Cannon / Thunderbolt / Calm Mind / Pain Split Magearna, has an even better matchup against Mega Crucibelle, though it suffers against opposing Weavile and Necturna
B: Offensive pressure with its secondary typing - This is where Ground truly shines, where it hits a lot of Doom Desire resists, and can pair well with other moves for good, neutral coverage.
C: Exert pressure against Tapu Lele - Since Tapu Lele doesn't resist Ground, it can be 3HKOed or 2HKOed with the secondary STAB, reducing the need to run Doom Desire / secondary Steel-type STAB move.
D: Differentiate from established pivots - Though Heatran uses Earth Power commonly, CAP26 can differentiate itself with STAB, a 4x resistance to Stealth Rock, and other attributes associated with a pivot that Heatran lacks. Also, given that Excadrill shares the same dual typing, I'll just say that a sand sweeper is a much different niche than a Doom Desire-using pivot.
A counterargument:
One of the first things that stands out on the VR is the amazing variety of offensive and defensive waters in the tier. Greninja, both Protean and Ash, Volkraken, Krilowatt, Arghonaut and Toxapex all inhabit parts of A-tier. Thus, to make a strong pivot that doesn't get blown apart, we should probably avoid dual typings that are water-weak. This means that despite how much CAP 26 would appreciate Earth Power for Krilowatt, Heatran, Arghonaut, Magearna, and Magnezone, we should probably avoid Steel-Ground.
The fact that Water-types exists in the tier is true. However,
Protean Greninja runs Low Kick,
Krilowatt runs Earth Power, and
Arghonaut runs Earthquake, which are problems for any secondary typing unless that secondary typing specifically addresses it. Volkraken's a problem for any Steel-type, even if it takes neutral damage from Fire-type attacks (thus, you don't see Kyurem-B as a team's sole Volkraken check). Thus, as a Steel-type, we're likely to be weak to at least some of these anyway. Furthermore, all of those aside from Arghonaut probably won't want to tank repeated Ground-type STAB moves anyway, so free switch-in opportunities are limited at best.
Steel / Flying is slowly creeping up my favorites list. Compared to Steel / Ghost, we trade an immunity to Fighting-type coverage and amazing netural coverage against the metagame for an immunity to Ground-type coverage, good coverage against the metagame (notably NOT against opposing Steel-types though), and a lack of Pursuit weakness. These changes are rather profound though, as special Flying-type STABs are notably less consistent than Ghost-type's, the neutrality to Fighting-type coverage means that Psychic-types can feasibly break through with them (like they do with Celesteela). Again, we can differentiate a Steel / Flying type from Celesteela rather easily by being less passive and less reliant on Leftovers for recovery.
Steel / Flying also fulfills all four criteria that I've outlined above in my answer to question 3.
A: Opportunities to switch in - Ground-type immunity gives it so many opportunities, including Landorus-T, Arghonaut, Garchomp, Diancie, and Syclant.
B: Offensive pressure with its secondary typing - It definitely dents most of the metagame with Flying-type STAB, but it notably cannot damage opposing Steel-types or Electric-types. Also, the STAB moves themselves are a bit inconsistent.
C: Exert pressure against Tapu Lele - Tapu Lele won't want to tank repeated hits from Flying-type STAB
, as long as they connect.
D: Differentiate from established pivots - Again, there are enough ways to differentiate CAP26 from Celesteela, even outside of just Doom Desire and using actual Flying-type STAB attacks.
Now, for some other counterarguments:
Both Steel / Electric and Steel / Bug are notable for their STAB pivot moves. Electric is the more discussed one but, while a STAB Volt Switch synergizes well with our Special Attacker, doesn’t provide much defensive utility that would allow us to become a more effective pivot (in fact, it’s arguable that the 4x Ground weakness would make us a worse pivot as we would be much more vulnerable to ground coverage, like HP Ground Jumbao). It could be argued the same for Bug, as HP Fire or other Fire coverage, like Flame Burst Jumbao, is prevalent as well, but I think this is mitigated by the two useful resistances Bug provides to Fighting and Ground. However, U-turn could contradict CAP 26 because it is a physical attack but I don’t foresee this as too much of an issue because of Special Attackers like Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T running U-turn nevertheless.
As a Pivot however, CAP26 might want to be able to take momentum through pivoting moves, thus the Steel/Electric or Steel/Bug typing seems appropriate.
Let's make something clear; CAP26 being a pivot does NOT imply utilizing pivoting moves. I know, SunMYSER, that you didn't say that exactly, but it's a point that I feel that I have to make clear early on in this process.
So, I don't care whether or not a Pokemon has STAB on a pivoting move; if it's not backed by a respectable attack stat, it doesn't matter whether the attack is STAB boosted or not. Syclant can pull off a
reasonable mixed attacking set (its "Offensive Spikes" set) with U-turn, and it can definitely dent switch-ins with U-turn, but that's because it also has a Base 116 Attack stat (basically equal to its Special Attack stat). If it wasn't STAB, or even if Syclant had an awful attack stat, I'm sure we'd still see U-turn because you're using it for the pivoting effect. As a Doom Desire user, CAP26 probably won't have the Attack to spare making the pivot move's damage output worthwhile. Otherwise, Steel / Bug, for this CAP, turns Ground- and Fighting- into a neutrality, which are somewhat useful, but I definitely think there better typings that exert more offensive pressure (as I have outlined above).
Rarely are you using pivoting moves for raw damage, unless your name is Choice Specs Tapu Koko or Choice Band Syclant. You're using it for the pivoting effect. I don't dislike Steel / Electric because it technically fulfills the 4 criteria, but imo we must avoid pivoting moves for this concept to succeed.
I outlined this in my last Concept Assessment post. To provide one more perspective on pivoting moves, I'll ask this: do we want to risk pivoting moves, which generate momentum more efficiently than Doom Desire, pushing Doom Desire out of a moveslot? Because that's a legitimate concern, and I don't want Steel / Electric to imply that a pivoting move is a shoe-in: for this concept it's not.
As for ones I think should be avoided, I also agree with Jordy on the three types he mentioned avoiding; I think those suggestions are pretty sensible. Another one I agree with is Steel / Fairy, as it competes too much with Magearna, the biggest special attacking Steel in the metagame.
(Disclaimer: I'm sorry for having picked apart your entire post Felines; I just disagree with most everything you've said.) While yes, Magearna can act as a pivot with Assault Vest, it's not a very effective pivot. In
Jordy's words, "av gear sucks." Joking aside, we can make a Steel / Fairy pivot that's much different than Magearna, one that doesn't care as much about losing its item. Most of Magearna's viability arises from its sweeping sets anyway, according to the
set viability rankings (read: in the incoming VR update, Magearna will rise, but not due to Assault Vest). Basically, I don't think Magearna will overshadow CAP26 as a Steel / Fairy pivot. Steel / Fairy also fulfills our criteria, but I'm still contemplating whether or not I like it.
Also, if anyone is wondering, Mega Mawile is not a pivot, despite having decent bulk. It's a wallbreaker; we can differentiate from that as well.
Steel: Mono steel has an incredible defensive presence due to its excellent matchups vs many of the most dominant typings in the metagame currently, namely Psychic and Fairy. The main allure of Mono Steel I feel is the absence of a secondary typing, allowing defensive checks to have a much easier time switching in, incentivising Passive answers as we have discussed should be the way forward in order to keep Doom Desire the centre of attention. However, the lack of secondary STAB puts more pressure on 26's Teammates to take advantage of the Doom Desire however, as it will likely be unable to deal with offensive answers as easily.
I'm not sure if CAP26 can have the offensive pressure it needs without STAB on its coverage moves. Additionally, CAP26 can make use of additional resistances alongside Steel-types' great resist set. It's an interesting take on the concept, but I don't think the project can fully explore what Doom Desire has to offer without focusing on the offensive pressure CAP26 has to exert aside from Doom Desire.
Steel/Dragon is an interesting option to provide neutrality to Fire attacks, which could help carve out an interesting niche as a defensive Steel-type. More importantly, it could allow us to better check many of the Dragon-types that could otherwise gain offensive momentum or set up on a CAP 26 focused on using Doom Desire, most notably Garchomp, Charizard X, Kingdra, and Lati@s. A fun additional benefit of this typing could be that it provides STAB for phasing commonly seen on Slowbro/king sets that have already demonstrated delayed damage moves can be an effective strategy in other tiers.
The problem with a neutrality to Fire-type attack is that Fire-types in the CAP Metagame are really strong. I'm thinking Volkraken, Heatran, and Mega Charizard-Y. Defensive Fire-types like Mollux and Pyroak just aren't relevant. Thus, I don't know how much Steel / Dragon being neutral to Fire-type attacks really matters. There are a lot of assumptions to be made with this conclusion, but we're likely looking at near OHKOs to OHKOs being turned into near 2HKOs and 2HKOs. I think it's better to simply accept that Steel-types are weak to Fire-type attacks, and it's going to take a lot of babying to make them actually tank these Fire-type nukes well. Furthermore, Steel / Dragon CAP26 cannot pressure Tapu Lele with its secondary STAB, meaning that it will have to run Flash Cannon or Steelium Z to reliably tackle it. Finally, the phazing move you mention falls under the same boat as pivoting moves above: it doesn't matter if you have STAB on the move, what matters is the Attack stat, and with us specializing in Doom Desire, I'm not sure how much Attack we'll have to spare. Realistically, we can utilize that phazing move regardless of our typing, so, even if we don't get Steel / Dragon, we can still explore phazing's interactions with Doom Desire, which imo are rather interesting.
Fighting has the benefit of providing STAB towards the Steel type switch ins, while providing the coverage to hit all but the following neutrally; Kitsunoh, Volcarona, Gyarados, Char-Y, Victini, and Marowak-A from the offensive switch-ins. Fighting is a premier type providing resistance to Pursuit as well due to the ability to hit STAB Pursuit users hard, so this pokemon in itself is not unduly affected by Hazards switching in, and Hazard's switching out. This is counteracted by neutral resistances to Psychic and Fairy, which given that we want to bait in Fairy Types to a Doom Desire, this neutrality is actually a point in our favour - Using 252 SpA with neutral nature Steel/Fighting Jirachi as the base for the damage, Calm 252 SpD Jumbao switching in the turn Doom Desire hits is OHKO'd by Focus Blast; chip even without Rocks/Spikes. It allows defensive switch-ins to be largely still resilient, but only 3 mon (of which one is Chansey, the others Ferrothorn and Aggron-M) are hit SE by that coverage. It's a significantly powerful offensive typing otherwise seen on Cobalion and Lucario.
Fighting is absolutely awful for this project. As I've said on Discord, Fighting takes all of Steel type's great defensive potential and throws it in the garbage. Suddenly, key resistances to Psychic, Fairy, and Flying are just gone with secondary Fighting typing, and those attacks are the main reasons why you run Steel-types in the first place, given the prominence of Tornadus-T, Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, Jumbao, Mega Mawile, etc. Thus, adding Fighting, which does improve our offense, makes our ability to pivot in and out of battle awful, which directly contradicts the
final concept assessment post. Thus, Fighting should not be an option for a secondary typing for CAP26.
One final one is Normal. The most notable part of this typing is additional weakness to Fighting in exchange for the ability to avoid getting trapped by Pajantom, who often runs Assault Vest and 252 SpD. It is effectively singletype Steel, but provides some slight mechanical buff to those who Resist Steel while lacking the Steel type themselves, due to STAB Return or potentially Facade. Unlike the two above this turns CAP26 into its own defensive counter.
The additional weakness to Fighting is actually extremely relevant, as it will have 0 chance to survive Focus Blast from Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, and Tornadus-T, as well as Protean Greninja's Low Kick or Mega Mawile's Brick Break, without bending over backwards with defenses. These are Pokemon that CAP26, as a Steel-type pivot that wants to be able to compete with other Steel-type pivots, should be able to deal with. Second,
PAJANTOM DOES NOT AND SHOULD NOT RUN ASSAULT VEST. Heal Block is simply too good to give up, and Assault Vest prevents its use. Monotyped Steel would actually be miles better than Steel / Normal.
