CAP 26 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

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Jordy

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3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

As of right now, I don't have an idea of what I think CAP 26's typing should be, but I have looked into what typings I believe we should avoid. The typings that I believe we should avoid are Steel / Grass, Steel / Fire, and Steel / Fighting. Let me get into why I believe we should avoid each of these typings. Lets start off with Steel / Grass; while obviously a great defensive typing for a pivot, I believe that there is really no way to make CAP 26 (Steel / Grass) differentiate itself from Ferrothorn enough to warrant it ever being used. This is mainly because of the massive utility Ferrothorn brings with moves like Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Knock Off. If we want to give people a reason to run CAP 26 with Steel / Grass, I believe that we would have to massively oversaturate its movepool to compete with Ferrothorn, which means that if we do that, there's also a very high chance of pushing out Doom Desire. The same goes for Steel / Fire as before, but because of Heatran. However, I believe that this would still have more chance of succeeding than Steel / Grass, because Heatran has a few very obvious flaws as a pivot that we can use to CAP 26's advantage if we do go with this typing. Lastly, there's Steel / Fighting, which synergizes with Doom Desire quite well offensively. However, because we're focusing on turning CAP 26 into a pivot, I believe that this typing would be detrimental more than anything. This is because of Steel / Fighting's lack of resistance to Psychic and Fairy, which is why Steel is such a great defensive typing for a pivot to begin with.
 

Jho

Sobble Squad
is a Pre-Contributor
3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta?

I've had a few conversations about what types would make a great typing for a Pivot in the current CAP meta that has left me with 3 favourites: Steel, Steel/Ground, and Steel/Ghost. Let's look into what each of these can offer -

Steel: Mono steel has an incredible defensive presence due to its excellent matchups vs many of the most dominant typings in the metagame currently, namely Psychic and Fairy. The main allure of Mono Steel I feel is the absence of a secondary typing, allowing defensive checks to have a much easier time switching in, incentivising Passive answers as we have discussed should be the way forward in order to keep Doom Desire the centre of attention. However, the lack of secondary STAB puts more pressure on 26's Teammates to take advantage of the Doom Desire however, as it will likely be unable to deal with offensive answers as easily.

Steel/Ground: Coupling Steel with Ground does a few things for 26, the main thing being giving it a way to deter Heatran, one of the better offensive checks to Doom Desire, as well as preventing Volt-Switch which would otherwise prevent the prediction aspect of the 'wind-up' turn Doom Desire has. Ground as a secondary typing does have its drawbacks however, notably removing a few of the resistances the steel type offers to many common types such as Ice and to a lesser extent, Grass. This may allow Pokemon such as Choice Locked Kartana, offensive Jumbao and BoltBeam Magearna to muscle through 26 when it would otherwise check them.

Steel/Ghost: Ghost as a secondary typing gives us the incredible power to completely wall Lele, Aurumoth and Magearna, who typically use Fighting coverage in order to break through Steel-types. Whilst this type combination seems incredible defensively, it does open us up to a weakness to Pursuit which can be detrimental to 26's determined Pivot Roll. The sheer strength of this typing combination may be worth this weakness, however, especially if 26 can threaten Weavile and Mega Tyranitar with Z-DD which would make them hesitant to click pursuit should it not KO.

What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

The two typings I think would either push Doom Desire out of 26's set or change 26's role to more of a wallbreaker would be Steel/Fairy and Steel/Fighting. Steel/Fairy has overlapping resistances in Steel and Fire, making coverage options to hit these types more attractive which may push Doom Desire out of the picture. Couple this with the pure strength of the Steel/Fairy typing and I think its safe to assume 26 may miss its intended role of a team supporting pivot.

Steel/Fighting on the other hand its such an incredible offensive typing, 26 would almost definitley prefer to be a wallbreaker with this typing due to the fact that Fairy types would not want to take fighting moves with a Doom Desire prepped and vica verca - Steel types would not want to tank the Doom Desire with the possibility of Fighting coverage. Not to mention Steel/Fighting completley removes all reasoning to use a Steel-typed pivot by removing the resistances to both Psychic and Fairy.
 
My problem with Steel/Ghost is the pursuit weakness.

We decided to threaten offensive answers to steel. That means Fighting, Ground and/or Fire. Fighting is weak to Psychic, meaning we may even have Future Sight coverage as a possibility. In any event, we can easily deal with the two others. So I suggest Steel/Water to help scare off Heatran, Landorus, Collosoil and Volcorona, providing a neutral hit to Volkraken, without threatening Arghonaut, Ferrothorn, Carribolt, Kartana, Krillowatt, Magnezone, Toxapex or Zapdos and without giving up our Stealth Rock resistance or gaining a Pursuit weakness.
 

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
is a Pre-Contributor
3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

Since this Pokemon is supposed to be a pivot, I think we should try to avoid typing that are weak to Pursuit. Not only would this hurt its ability to switch out against certain Pokemon, but it also turns matchups that a steel type should have the upper hand in into a disadvantage. Weavile and Tyranitar, the two best pursuit users in the meta, are both weak to steel and would otherwise be threatened by CAP 26. These types would be Dark and Psychic.

It's also been discussed a bit that this Pokemon should be able to hold its own against the psychic and fairy types in the tier, especially Tapu Lele, so types that make the CAP neutral to fairy or psychic should be avoided. These types are Dark, Dragon, Fighting, and Poison. Since Fighting is a common coverage type on these Pokemon, a typing that is neutral or immune to Fighting would be ideal. These types are Bug, Fairy, Flying, Poison, Psychic, and Ghost.

4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?

We'll want a secondary type that offers good neutral coverage as a strong neutral attack will threaten most offensive switchins but be less threatening to defensive switchins. To figure out which types would work for this, we should first look at the Pokemon in the meta that resist Doom Desire. In VR order:
Defensive ResistsOffensive Resists
A+S
ArghonautHeatran
CelesteelaA+
FerrothornGreninja
A-Volkraken
ToxapexA
ZapdosKitsunoh
B+A-
Chansey*Caribolt
CyclohmKartana
PelipperKrilowatt
SlowkingMagnezone
SuicuneVolcarona
BB+
JirachiGyarados
Rotom-WNaviathan
B-Smokomodo
Mega AggronMega Swampert
GastrodonB
MoltresExcadrill
CMega Camerupt
MolluxMega Charizard X
PyroakMega Charizard Y
QuagsireMega Scizor
SlowbroVictini
Mega SlowbroB-
SnaelstromCawmodore
Kingdra
Manaphy
C
Crawdaunt
Keldeo
Alolan Marowak
*Honorary Resist

So now I'll see how a few proposed typings would work against these Pokemon
Super Effective, Neutral, Not Very Effective
Defensive ResistsOffensive Resists
A+S
ArghonautHeatran
CelesteelaA+
FerrothornGreninja
A-Volkraken
ToxapexA
ZapdosKitsunoh
B+A-
Chansey*Caribolt
CyclohmKartana
PelipperKrilowatt
SlowkingMagnezone
SuicuneVolcarona
BB+
JirachiGyarados
Rotom-WNaviathan
B-Smokomodo
Mega AggronMega Swampert
GastrodonB
MoltresExcadrill
CMega Camerupt
MolluxMega Charizard X
PyroakMega Charizard Y
QuagsireMega Scizor
SlowbroVictini
Mega SlowbroB-
SnaelstromCawmodore
Kingdra
Manaphy
C
Crawdaunt
Keldeo
Alolan Marowak
This is about what we'd want to see, mostly neutral/super effective on the right and neutral/resist on the left, so offensively Ground would work very well for this Pokemon.

Defensive ResistsOffensive Resists
A+S
ArghonautHeatran
CelesteelaA+
FerrothornGreninja
A-Volkraken
ToxapexA
ZapdosKitsunoh
B+A-
Chansey*Caribolt
CyclohmKartana
PelipperKrilowatt
SlowkingMagnezone
SuicuneVolcarona
BB+
JirachiGyarados
Rotom-WNaviathan
B-Smokomodo
Mega AggronMega Swampert
GastrodonB
MoltresExcadrill
CMega Camerupt
MolluxMega Charizard X
PyroakMega Charizard Y
QuagsireMega Scizor
SlowbroVictini
Mega SlowbroB-
SnaelstromCawmodore
Kingdra
Manaphy
C
Crawdaunt
Keldeo
Alolan Marowak
While not as good at accomplishing our goal as Ground, Flying's good neutral coverage would fit well with what we want this Pokemon to do since it hits most things on the list for neutral damage which threatens offensive Pokemon but not defensive ones.

Defensive ResistsOffensive Resists
A+S
ArghonautHeatran
CelesteelaA+
FerrothornGreninja
A-Volkraken
ToxapexA
ZapdosKitsunoh
B+A-
Chansey*Caribolt
CyclohmKartana
PelipperKrilowatt
SlowkingMagnezone
SuicuneVolcarona
BB+
JirachiGyarados
Rotom-WNaviathan
B-Smokomodo
Mega AggronMega Swampert
GastrodonB
MoltresExcadrill
CMega Camerupt
MolluxMega Charizard X
PyroakMega Charizard Y
QuagsireMega Scizor
SlowbroVictini
Mega SlowbroB-
SnaelstromCawmodore
Kingdra
Manaphy
C
Crawdaunt
Keldeo
Alolan Marowak
Again, this is very much what we'd want to see offensively, neutral hits will threaten offensive switch ins to Doom Desire while not posing a large threat to most defensive switch ins.

Defensive ResistsOffensive Resists
A+S
ArghonautHeatran
CelesteelaA+
FerrothornGreninja
A-Volkraken
ToxapexA
ZapdosKitsunoh
B+A-
Chansey*Caribolt
CyclohmKartana
PelipperKrilowatt
SlowkingMagnezone
SuicuneVolcarona
BB+
JirachiGyarados
Rotom-WNaviathan
B-Smokomodo
Mega AggronMega Swampert
GastrodonB
MoltresExcadrill
CMega Camerupt
MolluxMega Charizard X
PyroakMega Charizard Y
QuagsireMega Scizor
SlowbroVictini
Mega SlowbroB-
SnaelstromCawmodore
Kingdra
Manaphy
C
Crawdaunt
Keldeo
Alolan Marowak
This offensive coverage is not what we want to see, way too many NVE hits on the offensive side.
 
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4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?

Imo, to emulate the NU situation that allows FS use, it's important for the combination of steel + second stab to only have 4-7 solid defensive answers that aren't at least a lil nervous of either stab - ie, only 4-7 that resist both - and ideally, most of the rest of the defensive pokemon in the meta being hit neutrally by our stab combination.

For steel/electric, that's quagsire, pyroak, cyclohm, gastrodon, and honorarily chansey. Steel/electric also allows us to emulate the scald situation via discharge threatening para chance.
The issue with this type is all the offensive counters it has (mega swampert, smoko, etc) and the fact that it's SE against arghonaut, celesteela, suicune, slowbro, slowking, and pelipper. As coverage against defensive pokemon, steel/electric may be super-effective against too many for DD to be of use, and as both coverage against and resistance from offensive pokemon it is too much of a mixed bag to allow us to consistently force them out; we hit Greninja and volkraken, but threats like heatran, kartana, and tapu lele have their way with us.

Steel/ghost has kind of the opposite problem - nothing fully resists, but it's not SE against any bulky answers except slowking, slowbro and jirachi. (It also doesn't have that status chance.) Given SE hits plus full resistance against two very common offensive psychic types (ie tapu lele and mega-zam) and neutral coverage otherwise on top of that critical fighting type immunity, I'd argue that steel/ghost is on par with water/psychic in NU as a type combination that forces out many offensive threats and makes most defensive answers to our delayed move a little bit nervous.

Steel/water is fully resisted by arghonaut, ferrothorn, toxapex, mollux, cyclohm, pelipper, slowbro, rotom wash, etc. I don't think it's an option at all; more than half the defensive pokemon in the tier could soak up that type combo. Despite forcing out a variety of common offensive threats and having access to scald, steel/water is fully resisted by practically every defensive pokemon in the meta. If we're trying to emulate the situation in NU that allows FS to be used, I don't think it's an option at all.

Steel/ground is fully resisted by celesteela, zapdos, pelipper, rotom-wash, moltres, and snaelstrom. I like this sweet of full resists, but like electric, ground is super effective against a lot of pokemon we might prefer it to only be neutral against; mega aggron, mollux, toxapex, and cyclohm. This is a smaller list by two than steel/electric has, however. Notably, it hits heatran and a lot of other rockers for SE. Lacking that fighting resistance definitely makes it a little less effective at checking the offensive pokemon in the meta; steel/ground could still emulate the NU situation, but I think it would be a little more niche as an anti-rocker than steel ghost and have fewer chances to come in.

tldr; steel/water is a terrible typing to recreate the situation that allows for FS use, we could make steel/electric work, steel/ground is good but a little niche, and steel/ghost is essentially perfect.
 
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During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

Steel/Ghost:
This one has already gotten a lot of attention, and its easy to see why. Steel/Ghost is an amazing typing both offensively and defensively. The fact that Kitsunoh manages to stay relevant today despite its mediocre stats should be enough proof of how effective this combination can be for a pivot. The neutral coverage from Ghost-type moves, which would hit many of our supposed defensive checks might seem like an issue, but because Shadow Ball will likely be our strongest STAB move, Pokemon like Celesteela and Arghonaut can still take it relatively well (even if they would need to be careful about Ghostium Z). All in all, this is probably my favorite candidate right now and because it's so good both defensively and offensively, this is almost certainly the best typing for a pivoting role.

However, something that I'd like to note about this typing is that its Pursuit weakness should not be underestimated. Because Weavile and Tyranitar are both weak to Steel, this makes our Steel type STAB very important to avoid being trapped, and because of its delayed nature, Doom Desire is not well suited for this. Even with Steelium Z, I think the situation would still be favorable to the trappers, as it would be easy to see this move coming, and their team is more than likely going to have a good Steel resist. This interactions make Flash Cannon a much more appealing option, as its much more reliable at deterring these trappers. I think we can still work around these flaws in later stages, and the positives of this typing greatly outweigh its negatives, but it's also important we don't underestimate this threat to our concept.

Steel/Ground: A Ground-type STAB would be a great way to deter Heatran and Volkraken, two of our most notable offensive Pokemon resistant to Steel, while Celesteela, Arghonaut and Ferrothorn are still in a good position. This makes it the b achieve our goal of limiting our offensive switch ins while encouraging defensive ones really well.

That being said, being so vulnerable to Celesteela could prove to be problematic later, as because that mon usually carries Protect, it could easily tank our Doom Desire while it shields itself from any attack from any of our teammates, rendering us completely useless. Of course, this is not necessarily a bad outcome, as it gives the opponent some very solid counterplay to CAP 26 and it's not like all teams use Celesteela. However, given that Doom Desire is a pretty risky strategy, I personally don't think that being countered so hard by an A+ ranked Pokemon is something we want, and it would be something to take into consideration on later stages.

As for bad typings:

Pure Steel: While this typing might be attractive from a defensive point of view, I think it would be a mistake for this particular concept, because if we don't have a powerful secondary STAB, CAP 26 would face a lot of pressure to use an STAB move with immediate power like Flash Cannon, as Doom Desire should never be your main attacking move. Of course, you could still run Flash Cannon+Doom Desire, but the overlap in coverage means that this will only be desirable if we don't have enough moves to fit into out set.

Steel/Electric: Because we want to be unable to pressure defensive switch ins, this would be a terrible choice, as it manages to hit all defensive switch ins bar Ferrothorn super effectively (And Ferro could be easily dealt with using HP Fire, as Magnezone usually does). This would make CAP 26 too self sufficient for what we established previously on this thread.

Steel/Fairy: While not necessarily a bad typing by itself, I think that the fact that there are already two very prominent Pokemon with this typing means that it would be quite difficult to differentiate CAP 26 from them.

Steel/Rock and Steel/Ice: These are low hanging fruits, but still, while this typings are interesting offensively, they both simply suck too much defensively because they stack too many weaknesses with Steel, making them suboptimal choices.
 
3) Both Steel / Electric and Steel / Bug are notable for their STAB pivot moves. Electric is the more discussed one but, while a STAB Volt Switch synergizes well with our Special Attacker, doesn’t provide much defensive utility that would allow us to become a more effective pivot (in fact, it’s arguable that the 4x Ground weakness would make us a worse pivot as we would be much more vulnerable to ground coverage, like HP Ground Jumbao). It could be argued the same for Bug, as HP Fire or other Fire coverage, like Flame Burst Jumbao, is prevalent as well, but I think this is mitigated by the two useful resistances Bug provides to Fighting and Ground. However, U-turn could contradict CAP 26 because it is a physical attack but I don’t foresee this as too much of an issue because of Special Attackers like Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T running U-turn nevertheless.

As for ones I think should be avoided, I also agree with Jordy on the three types he mentioned avoiding; I think those suggestions are pretty sensible. Another one I agree with is Steel / Fairy, as it competes too much with Magearna, the biggest special attacking Steel in the metagame.

Saying Steel / Ghost is “essentially perfect” is quite an exaggeration. Having both a Knock Off and Pursuit weakness is quite devastating to a pivot, as it makes it less safe to switch in and less safe to switch out, respectively. Pursuit is particularly detrimental because it makes it much less safe for CAP 26 to switch out, which is the entire role of a pivot to begin with. I feel like people downplay this point quite a bit because it's "only one thing" but most Pursuit weak Pokemon are going to struggle as a pivot. To prove my point, the only viable Ghost-type pivot is Kitsunoh, which is not only a Steel / Ghost pivot we would have to compete with, but also only rose to viability because of Necturna, which is now nerfed. I also don't think Steel / Ghost provides much in the way of offensive utility. Sure it can hit most things neutrally but if you're not able to hit many relevant Doom Desire resist super-effectively then the potency of Doom Desire would become lessened as a result. The only relevant ones you'd hit are Slowking, Kitsunoh, and yourself. That's it. For these reasons, I'd also advise against Steel / Psychic.

4)
I agree with a lot of the typings that have been mentioned already as good offensive coverage. I've already discussed the potency of Steel / Ground, as it can hit five out of the six relevant 4x Steel resists super-effectively. The main issue with the type would be that we could be easily taken advantage of by Celesteela and Zapdos. I don't have much else to add of right now but look forward to seeing how this discussion progresses!
 
Alright, I'm back with some thoughts on typings now that it's unlocked (again, I apologize for earlier).

3) One of the first things that stands out on the VR is the amazing variety of offensive and defensive waters in the tier. Greninja, both Protean and Ash, Volkraken, Krilowatt, Arghonaut and Toxapex all inhabit parts of A-tier. Thus, to make a strong pivot that doesn't get blown apart, we should probably avoid dual typings that are water-weak. This means that despite how much CAP 26 would appreciate Earth Power for Krilowatt, Heatran, Arghonaut, Magearna, and Magnezone, we should probably avoid Steel-Ground. That's all the big insight I've got for now on question 3, but I feel as though my reasoning can be extended to other water-weak typings.

4) This may be a bit of a stretch given how out-of hand this Pokemon could get, but I think we should look into Steel-Dragon. Dragon is a phenomenal defensive and offensive typing against many of the Pokemon that were mentioned as would-be walls to CAP 26. Dragon gives us resistances to water, electric, a quad resist on grass, and neutrality to fire and ice. Dragon is also a fearsome STAB combo with Steel, and hits offensive 'mons like Greninja, Volkraken, Krilowatt, Volcarona, and Caribolt for neutral damage, and at least alleviates the quad resist from Heatran and Magnezone, making it a more desirable standard resistance. Those last two also hate getting dented, as they don't have reliable recovery. Dragon as a secondary offensive typing also falls short against many steel-resisting defensive mons, like Celesteela, AV Magearna, and Ferrothorn, and dragon moves are notorious for either being relatively weak or having very undesirable drawbacks, which would help bulkier neutral targets like Arghonaut, Toxapex, Suicune, Chansey, Slowking, Amoongus, and Tangrowth pivot in on or even continuously wall CAP 26. This typing would very obviously put strain on later stages of the project, because I could easily see a Steel-Dragon pivot being overtuned if we're not extremely careful during movepool, ability, and stat discussions. However, I feel like it's definitely worth discussion, as it fills the unique needs of our concept.
 
3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?


Steel is a great typing inherently for Pivoting, as it has a great deal of resistances and full immunity to the Poison status. Answering just this question, there's certainly an argument for just going mono-Steel typed. However, as we'll look at question 4 we'll see it is also crucial offensively to boast a second STAB so that we can pressure offensive switch-ins to Doom Desire. A few things I'd be looking for in a secondary type are, in priority order:

  • A Typing that helps in picking up additional Immunities is always a powerful thing for a Pivot, as it allows you to steal momentum by effectively causing opponents to "skip" a turn. I mean this as both Immunities to types and Immunities to Status.
  • Related to the above, a typing that doubles down on "important" resistances - in this case, our resistance to Fairy, Rock, Psychic, and Flying area key feature of our 'mon in this current meta. Bumping that up to a 4x resist is a fine idea.
  • I can't consider this without answering 4 a little - and Frostbiyt is right. We want to be strong versus Offensive checks, so a new typing needs to be able to keep us from HAVING to run away from some key targets - namely, Heatran, Volkraken, Greninja, Kitsunoh, Caribolt, Kartana, Krilowatt, Magnezone, and Volcarona. I'll be giving a point to any typing that can threaten at least one of those Super Effectively and threaten most of them neutrally.
  • Neutralizing a Weakness is also an appreciated aspect of a typing, but less important overall. It'd be great to lose our weakness to Ground and Fire in particular in this current metagame, or to gain a Water or Electric resist to help with the fact that water and electric types are going to come into Doom Desire constantly. But I would not want to do so if it meant compromising on our immunities or key resistances.
Conversely, anything that compromises our key resistances or fails to do these things is a "Bad" Typing for us. Increasing our weaknesses is okay, but losing our, say, Rock resist is a bit tougher. Looking at just these criteria, then, I'll list out all the available types and rank them as Awful (actively harms our key resists and gives nothing back), Poor (does none of that, or does one but impacts key resists), Fine, Good, or Great (for a typing that can hit all four notes without compromising a key resistance).
Bug: We do manage to shed both our Fighting AND Ground Weaknesses...but at what cost? We lose our key resistances to Rock and Flying and gain nothing particularly relevant or interesting. Not a fan. Offensively this typing isn't helpful either - while it can hit Greninja and Caribolt for SE damage, it hits too many of the others for resisted damage. Heatran and Volkraken are major threats to this project's viability, and a typing would have to do a lot more to make up for being a dog to both of them.

Dark: Changing our Psychic resist to a full Psychic immunity is nice, and picking up new resists to Ghost and Dark is not nothing - it's been noted that a flaw of Psychic and Ghost is that it makes our Pivot weak to Pursuit and Knock-off; resisting those moves thus is a fine advantage. Prankster immunity isn't HUGELY relevant in today's meta, but it is a small bonus point. It does compound our Fighting Weakness, but that isn't necessarily a dealbreaker for a Pivot. Only mark against it, really, is that it isn't enormously helpful offensively - but it isn't actively bad, as it is neutral against almost all of those targets.

Dragon: While our total resists stay the same, we trade out a key resistance to Fairy to gain some more marginal resists to Water and Electric (we also lose the Ice resist). Offensively, it isn't SE against anything and is NVE against the most major threats. Not a great trade, imo.

Electric: We gain Paralyze immunity, we upgrade our Flying resistance to a x4, we don't lose any key resistances, and we pick up an Electric resistance. We don't pick up Water resistance but we do gain the ability to torment most water types with our secondary STAB. This STAB is actually pretty lit - while it isn't very effective against a few targets like Caribolt, it is Super Effective versus several major enemies.

Fairy: A perfectly reasonable but not exceptional typing. Dragon immunity isn't a goal, but will be an advantage. Losing the Fighting weakness also isn't a goal, but it's hard to complain about. The biggest knock against it is that offensively there are several resists we'd like to be hitting neutrally.

Fighting: While this does increase our Rock resistance it does so at far too steep a cost - we lose our Flying and Psychic resists. It is powerful offensively though; it is extremely threatening to Heatran, Greninja, Kartana, and Magnezone but is extremely ineffective versus Kitsunoh and Volcarona. I also don't love that it is so threatening to Defenisve DD Switch-ins, something we want to avoid - I can't imagine Chansey or Ferrothorn are going to enjoy eating STAB SpA fighting moves. On balance it's a middle-of-the road option, but not one I think we should consider seriously as it is likely to overshadow Doom Desire.

Fire: Burn immunity and an increased resistance to Fairy is nice and all, but it comes at the cost of abandoning our Rock resistance and compounding our Ground and Water issues. Offensively it will be NVE against more than it is is SE against, which is also not ideal.

Flying: Ground IMMUNITY is huge, almost so huge that I'm willing to overlook the loss of our Rock resist and the new weakness to Electricty. Spikes immunity is also quite good, and the shedding of our Fighting weakness is also nice. The problem is that offensively, this is quite poor and does little to help us against some of our key targets - only Volcarona gets hit SE by it, and several of these foes resist the attack.

Ghost: Normal and Fighting Immunity is quite the two-fer, and weaknesses to Dark and Ghost aren't a huge deal when we've gained those new immunities without compromising any of our key resists. Trapping via Shadow Tag and Arena Trap isn't really a thing in our meta, but trapping immunity is a consideration - it means we can't get pulled in by Magnezone. I am unclear if it also means we can't be trapped by Pajantom. Offensively this is just fine - we can get in Shoot-outs with Kitsunoh (that we'd probably often lose considering it is usually Scarfed), we are resisted by Greninja, and we hit everyone else neutrally. But as a pivot, this typing is quite insane.

Grass: Immunity to spore moves and Leech Seed is muh, but picking up resistances to Water and Electric AND neutralizing our Ground Weakness is quite powerful, and probably makes losing our Flying resist worthwhile. Offensively, it's mostly not good as we struggle to hit the majority of targets for effective damage. I don't know if the existance of Ferrothorn should turn us off this typing, but the lack of offensive ability might.

Ground: We aren't in the market for Electric immunity, but it's a nice gain. Turning our Rock Resist into a 4x is also good - so good, I'm willing to look the other way on what this does to our defenses versus Water and Grass especially as we preserve our other key resists. The real power is what it does for us offensively - we get to demolish every single one of our targets with at least neutral damage.

Ice: Thank u, next.

Normal: Ghost Immunity isn't the hero we need, want, or deserve, but it is a hero nonetheless. Doubling up on our fighting weakness is what it is, but offensively this is abysmal - it's impossible for normal to BE super effective but it's also resisted or ignored by half our targets.

Poison: This is interesting, as I believe it is an unexplored typing. Defensively as a Pivot, we don't gain a ton - but what we do gain isn't bad, as we increase our resistances to Fairy, Grass, and Bug and neutralize our Fighting weakness in exchange for losing our Psychic resist (arguably the least key of our key resists). Offensively, this is extremely mediocre as it leaves us bricked by the many steel types we are worried about and only really threatens Caribolt in return. Ultimately, it probably isn't good enough.

Psychic: See above but worse - on balance a worthwhile defensive boost but not an essential one, and abysmal offensively. Keep looking.

Rock: As ironically awful as always, mostly. A 4x Flying resist isn't worth compounding our issues with Water, Fighting, and Ground AND losing our Grass resist. Offensively this is more bad than good.

Water: We trade Fire weakness for Electric weakness, which isn't great, but we also gain a Water resist which is pretty amazing, and we give up little of our key resistances to do it. Offensively this is nice and on balance mostly neutral.

TL;DR:
I think Electric, Ground, and Ghost are front-runner typings that do a lot of what we want.

I think that Dark is also a quite good, underrated typing that we should look at a little more.

Bug, Dragon, Fire, Ice, Normal, Psychic, and Rock typing are extremely bad for our concept and chosen role, and should be avoided.

Everything else is nice and neutral, and would be workable, but is probably not as good as those first four typings. If you're looking for a top six, Flying and Water are probably the other typings that warrant serious conversation. Fighting is also interesting, as it is underexplored in the meta (seeing as Luc and Cobalion are stuck in UU while MegaLuc is Uber) and in the thread, but I am of the opinion it should be avoided as it threatens to be too overwhelming offensively without actually contributing to our Defensive Pivoting capabilities in a meaningful way.
 
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3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

Anything that increases susceptibility to entry Hazards is going to be a bad choice; Bug, Fire and Ice provide little benefit for us to switch in, keeping us susceptible to Rocks. Psychic and Ghost provide susceptibility to Pursuit and spammed Knock Off. While Ghost does give us the opportunity to avoid being trapped by Pajantom, it also makes us susceptible take Super Effective damage meaning that there's little point in us using that to avoid being trapped and we don't just need to worry about , meaning the the only real use for it is avoiding Fire Spin Mollux, which, yeah.

I've not mentioned Flying, as that does provide a neutrality to Stealth Rock, it avoids the susceptibility to Spikes and Webs.

4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?

Pivoting suggests that not only does CAP26 have the ability to take some hits as it's in the field numerous times over the course of a match, but that we are at risk of getting hit numerous times by Entry Hazards. Using a delayed move like Doom Desire means that our speed is less of an issue, and actually allows us to potentially Slow Pivot out, using the resistances of the Steel typing after Sticky Webs, and we are immune to Poison, so Toxic Spikes are a non-entity. This leaves Spikes and Stealth Rock to be resisted. Spikes can be avoided with Flying, leaving us neutral to rocks, but as they are so prevalent, there is the potential for a 4* Resistance to Rocks generated via Fighting or Ground.

Fighting
has the benefit of providing STAB towards the Steel type switch ins, while providing the coverage to hit all but the following neutrally; Kitsunoh, Volcarona, Gyarados, Char-Y, Victini, and Marowak-A from the offensive switch-ins. Fighting is a premier type providing resistance to Pursuit as well due to the ability to hit STAB Pursuit users hard, so this pokemon in itself is not unduly affected by Hazards switching in, and Hazard's switching out. This is counteracted by neutral resistances to Psychic and Fairy, which given that we want to bait in Fairy Types to a Doom Desire, this neutrality is actually a point in our favour - Using 252 SpA with neutral nature Steel/Fighting Jirachi as the base for the damage, Calm 252 SpD Jumbao switching in the turn Doom Desire hits is OHKO'd by Focus Blast; chip even without Rocks/Spikes. It allows defensive switch-ins to be largely still resilient, but only 3 mon (of which one is Chansey, the others Ferrothorn and Aggron-M) are hit SE by that coverage. It's a significantly powerful offensive typing otherwise seen on Cobalion and Lucario.

Ground is essentially a flip side of the offensive counters; only Gyarados and Char-Y remain the constant switchins to this effective typing. Still 4* Resistant to Rocks, defensively, it's more susceptible to Pursuit, and adds Water as a weakness, while keeping Fairy/Psychic as a resists. However, it means that those mon who spam electric are something that can be switched in much more easily, while providing the offensive potential to force those mon's out and risk getting KO'd by Ground, or switching in to Gyarados/Char-Y, say.

If we go for either of these typings, I think it's worth saying that Electric and Water Coverage should be a no-no. We are already inevitably going to be specially focused, so Hidden Power is going to be able to provide a lot of work in assisting with that, but being able to answer one or two potential threats that can switch in. It's worth noting that both of these hit Steel SE, meaning that it makes CAP26 it's own offensive counter.

One final one is Normal. The most notable part of this typing is additional weakness to Fighting in exchange for the ability to avoid getting trapped by Pajantom, who often runs Assault Vest and 252 SpD. It is effectively singletype Steel, but provides some slight mechanical buff to those who Resist Steel while lacking the Steel type themselves, due to STAB Return or potentially Facade. Unlike the two above this turns CAP26 into its own defensive counter.
 

david0895

Mercy Main Btw
is a Pre-Contributor
4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?

The most evident types that fits this balance are Steel/Ground and Steel/Ghost:

- Ground: This is the type with the most positive reaction to the offensive threatlist and the most negative to the defensive threatlist, making it one of the best choice for CAP26. Someone could say that there some of the Water offensive types like Volkraken or Krilowatt are still pressured by the fact that they have a secondary type that is weak to Ground.

- Ghost: this type is balanced by the fact that it hits neutrally pratically both of the threatlists, aiming at creating mid power level offensive stats.


I'm in favor of Ground because Ghost has a Pursuit weakness that is not good for someone that needs to switch in and out repeatedly.

That being said, being so vulnerable to Celesteela could prove to be problematic later, as because that mon usually carries Protect, it could easily tank our Doom Desire while it shields itself from any attack from any of our teammates, rendering us completely useless. Of course, this is not necessarily a bad outcome, as it gives the opponent some very solid counterplay to CAP 26 and it's not like all teams use Celesteela. However, given that Doom Desire is a pretty risky strategy, I personally don't think that being countered so hard by an A+ ranked Pokemon is something we want, and it would be something to take into consideration on later stages.
I don't think that this could be a serious problem, because we could just add later a coverage move in order to create some counterplay for it. (I don't think this is polljumping, but if it is, let me know)
 
4) Typings I have seen support of and am some degree of positive towards are Steel/Ghost, Steel/Ground, Steel/Flying, and Mono-Steel, in approximately that order. I haven't seen a lot of support for types that I think are bad, so I'll leave that alone, it's well-trodden ground.

My personal favourite, Steel/Ghost, I've seen be the subject of some controversy, in particular with regards to its pursuit weakness. I think this is a valid concern, but is outweighed by the benefits the typing offers, particularly the very powerful fighting immunity and equally valuable asset of nearly unresisted STAB, allowing us to capitalize on free turns generated by switching into immunities, threatening out frail offensive pokemon and those weak to our stabs, and being able to stand up to a lot of pokemon who rely on fighting coverage to get past steels, especially Tapu Lele.

Finally, none of the dark-types currently popular in the tier particularly want to be on the field for a Doom Desire, with Weavile in particular being vaporized by the attack. Tyranitar fares better, with Assault Vest variants taking less than 50% from even fully invested sets with 130 base special attack. But those sets lack recovery and do not appreciate taking huge hits like that.

In practice, a dark type doesn't have time to pursuit you and escape before taking the Doom Desire itself unless it predicts the move's use and switches in on the same turn, and plays like that risk running into a coverage move or otherwise a double switch into a counter.

I think claims that Steel/Ghost is irreparably hindered by a weakness to pursuit are overstating the issue.
 
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Ever since concept assessment, I was always of the viewpoint that if we are focusing on Doom Desire over Future Sight, Dark would be one of the best second typing to Steel because of how well they punish each others' checks.

I'm of the viewpoint that Doom Desire should be the move that punishes the switch-in instead of the other way round. The reason is actually pretty simple, because during the 2 turns that DD is waiting to strike, you would probably want to be exerting pressure with your other STAB. Dark in itself is one of the types that is hardest to switch into because of the good number of extremely punishing secondary effects that accompany them, and many of the good switch-ins to Dark either take SE or neutral damage from Steel.
 
My preliminary thoughts, before I have a chance to read through the discussion and respond to everyone else's arguments and ideas, are focused around a few typings I see as optimal. I think that Steel/Ground, Pure Steel, and Steel/Dragon are my top three picks for types that will help us achieve our goal as an effective user of Doom Desire. I want to establish that these typings could fit a desired role of supportive pivot and phaser.

Steel/Ground is my preferred type, as Ground pairs the best offensively with Steel of any potential secondary type, helping us to pressure many of the foremost switch-ins to an incoming Doom Desire. Ground's immunity to Electric would also help us act as a stop to enemy momentum via Volt Switch, which I think would be a powerful defensive tool given the concerns that a mon focused around delayed attacks may be a bit of a momentum sink.

Pure Steel is an excellent defensive typing that should not be overlooked, and one that might enable us to fair better against the omnipresent Water-types that are powerful in the CAP metagame. It also would allow for a stronger potential answer than Steel/Ground against Necturna, the preeminent offensive threat to most teams in the tier.

Steel/Dragon is an interesting option to provide neutrality to Fire attacks, which could help carve out an interesting niche as a defensive Steel-type. More importantly, it could allow us to better check many of the Dragon-types that could otherwise gain offensive momentum or set up on a CAP 26 focused on using Doom Desire, most notably Garchomp, Charizard X, Kingdra, and Lati@s. A fun additional benefit of this typing could be that it provides STAB for phasing commonly seen on Slowbro/king sets that have already demonstrated delayed damage moves can be an effective strategy in other tiers.

I look forward to more of this discussion!
 
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3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

As far as pivoting goes, there are several aspects that need we need to take into account. First off, being weak to Pursuit is a no-go, directly limiting how often CAP26 can pivot. This should limit our typings greatly to non-dark weak typings (so long Future Sight STAB!). This would mean that, for me Steel/Ghost and Steel/Psychic are off the table. As a Pivot however, CAP26 might want to be able to take momentum through pivoting moves, thus the Steel/Electric or Steel/Bug typing seems appropriate. However, to avoid all of this, Pure Steel could be a effective typing, sheerly due to the fact of its resists.

4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?
Id say Ground, not much more to say honestly.
 
3) One of the first things that stands out on the VR is the amazing variety of offensive and defensive waters in the tier. Greninja, both Protean and Ash, Volkraken, Krilowatt, Arghonaut and Toxapex all inhabit parts of A-tier. Thus, to make a strong pivot that doesn't get blown apart, we should probably avoid dual typings that are water-weak. This means that despite how much CAP 26 would appreciate Earth Power for Krilowatt, Heatran, Arghonaut, Magearna, and Magnezone, we should probably avoid Steel-Ground. That's all the big insight I've got for now on question 3, but I feel as though my reasoning can be extended to other water-weak typings.
I really disagree with this argument. Out of the Water-type you mentioned, Krilowatt and Arghonaut never runs Water-type moves, and they will always give us problem with their Ground-type coverage unless our typing specifically addresses this. Volkraken will always revenge kill most of the typing proposed, and while Steel/Dragon avoids being weak to both its STABs, you are still left with a neutral matchup because a neutral hit from Volkraken is not easy to take at all (Here's a calc for reference: 252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Dialga: 186-219 (50.6 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Besides, Steel/Ground can still heavily disuade it from switching with with our Ground-type STAB, so it still accomplishes the goal of limiting our offensive switch ins. The Greninja formes are just too frail to be switching in recklessly, even if they resisted both of STABs, and in Ash-Greninja's case, it's unlikely that CAP 26 will be able to endure its STAB moves repeatedly, regardless of the typing we choose.


I'd also like to expand on why I think that Steel/Ghost weakness to Pursuit is not as big as a deal as some might think, as I do understand their concern. The two main Pursuit trappers in the metagame are Mega Tyranitar and Weavile. The first one is rather slow and out of its usual moves, only Pursuit and Earthquake, and its not unreasonable to expect CAP 26 to be able to tank at least one of those (252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 246-290 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), which means that as long as we can at least 2HKO it and we are faster, we should be able to win in a 1v1 situation. Weavile its much faster and its Choice Band-boosted Knock Off is really intimidating, but it will be unable to switch in due to its frailty, and it will still depend on a 50/50 to deal an optimal amount of damage to CAP 26. Not only that, but if we run a Z-Crystal and some bulk, it's actually not impossible to tank a Knock Off (252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 302-356 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). This is not even really taking into account the fact that neither of them will be able to take any Steel-type STAB and that their x4 weakness to Fighting-type could also be easily exploited.

Finally, I'd like to touch on Steel/Bug and Steel/Electric, as some people have suggested them to get access to their pivoting moves. This is an especially flawed argument for Steel/Bug, as CAP 26 will almost certainly have to be specially-biased to fully take advantage of Doom Desire, which means that the STAB on U-turn will more than likely be wasted, as its unlikely that it will be used as a way of dealing damage. Steel/Electric with Volt Switch is not nearly as bad, as here we can take better advantage of its STAB, but I think Volt Switch could still be usable even without STAB, and this typing has already some issues that I dislike, as I established on my previous post.
 
I'm going to go against the grain and say Steel/Ground is actually poor for what our goals are.

Sure, it's actually a very good pivot typing. However, this isn't exclusively a pivot concept; this is a Doom Desire concept. The problem with Steel/Ground is that the type combination is too good offensively. There's very little reason to click Doom Desire when it's already very hard to switch into Earth Power+Flash Cannon. One of the big aspects we covered in question 2 was that we shouldn't just use our secondary typing to take a sledgehammer to all of Steel's checks, and that's exactly what Ground does.

Further, looking at the few mons that S/G typing doesn't smack around, the three most viable mons that aren't used exclusively on rain are Celesteela, Zapdos, and Rotom-Wash. Hypothetically, the playstyle we've identified is that we click Doom Desire as a counter switches in, we pivot out, and now our counter is forced into a rough spot. The problem is that these three have very few weaknesses and don't share any. That means any team that wants to run Doom Desire needs to have a Fire or Electric type, a Grass type, and a Rock or Ice type. There's very little overlap in those types, so that means if you do want to play into a Doom Desire niche, we need three different support mons to make that work. That's a grossly unviable cost given how good Steel Ground is even without this niche. And that's not even getting into the fact that Zapdos can't actually beat a Steel Ground.

But you may be thinking, "Gee Cruncher, sure if you take Rain out of the equation, it looks really broken, but Rain still is a thing. Plenty of mons in Rain get around this combo, and Rain is no slouch in the metagame." That's true. The problem is that everything in Rain resists Doom Desire. Rain teams us a plethora of Water, Steel, and Electric types. Setting a Doom Desire against Rain won't pay off, so you don't really gain anything against Rain by adding Doom Desire to your base Flash Cannon/Earth Power combination.

In summary, a Steel Ground is almost strictly better without Doom Desire that it is with Doom Desire.
 
Defensive ResistsOffensive Resists
A+S
ArghonautHeatran
CelesteelaA+
FerrothornGreninja
A-Volkraken
ToxapexA
ZapdosKitsunoh
B+A-
Chansey*Caribolt
CyclohmKartana
PelipperKrilowatt
SlowkingMagnezone
SuicuneVolcarona
BB+
JirachiGyarados
Rotom-WNaviathan
B-Smokomodo
Mega AggronMega Swampert
GastrodonB
MoltresExcadrill
CMega Camerupt
MolluxMega Charizard X
PyroakMega Charizard Y
QuagsireMega Scizor
SlowbroVictini
Mega SlowbroB-
SnaelstromCawmodore
Kingdra
Manaphy
C
Crawdaunt
Keldeo
Alolan Marowak
Again, this is very much what we'd want to see offensively, neutral hits will threaten offensive switch ins to Doom Desire while not posing a large threat to most defensive switch ins.
I'm a bit perplexed by this logic, so I'd like to ask for clarification. If our goal is to have a strong neutral secondary STAB to hit Offensive Steel resists, but leave Defensive Steel resists mostly unharmed, are we simply relying on the idea that, because they're defensive checks, they'll tank the neutral hits better? If so, then my question is answered, and I'll end with a warning about making sure we account for this carefully in stats.

However, if this was not planned on being the safety net for protecting defensive resists, I have to take issue with this table for Steel/Ghost. The only resist left is Chansey, which is the only 'honorary' resist on the entire table (I point this out not to suggest anything, but as a mere observation). Steel/Ghost hits more of the Defensive Steel resists super effectively than the Offensive ones (Technically an equal amount if you lump Slowbro and its Mega together), and there's more offensive resists than defensive ones total. As such, I am baffled as to how Steel/Ghost could possibly represent "What we'd want to see," with the only resist to our supposed 'strong secondary STAB' being a mere nominal resist, while the others are hit neutrally or super effectively. What I see in this chart is a typing that can equally easily use its neutral secondary STAB to target offensive and defensive Steel resists, while also having fair opportunity to hit members of either group super effectively.

While I think that the topic of Pursuit and Knock Off is one that should also be pursued in debate, I personally am more concerned as to the spread that this chart presents to me as a reason against Steel/Ghost, as it seems to rely purely on the defensive nature of these defensive steel resists to take what is supposedly a decently strong secondary STAB dealing mostly neutral and super effective hits.
 
are we simply relying on the idea that, because they're defensive checks, they'll tank the neutral hits better?
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 132+ SpD Arghonaut: 105-124 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes. The special tanks of the format have no trouble at all taking unboosted neutral hits, and Shadow Ball's pretty medium base power doesn't hurt (help?) either.
 

snake_rattler

Pajantom's Daddy
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3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

There are four criteria for a Steel-type pivot that will use Doom Desire for it to be successful in the current CAP Metagame.

A: We need to have good opportunities to switch in and use Doom Desire effectively.
B: We need to have good adequate offensive presence in order to use Doom Desire without too much risk due to the amount of Steel-type resists.
C: We need to be able to exert pressure on Tapu Lele.
D: We need to be wary of being overshadowed by other established Steel-type pivots, particularly Ferrothorn and Heatran.

Having read the posts in the thread so far, everyone seems to be on the same page on points A and B, given the answers to GMars's first batch of questions.

C: To be clear, I am not arguing that CAP26 has to counter Tapu Lele. What I am saying, though, is that any Steel-type pivot worth running in the current CAP Metagame can prevent Tapu Lele from spamming STAB, terrain-boosted Psychic against most predicted switch-ins and its accurate STAB Moonblast against Pursuit trappers. If Tapu Lele sees a Ferrothorn on the opposing team, it has to use consider using Focus Blast to deal with it. This needs to be the same for CAP26. If CAP26 prevents Tapu Lele to use its STAB moves freely and force it to consider using its weaker coverage moves, CAP26 can effectively compete with the metagame's other Steel-types, as they do the same thing.

The extra challenge with this is that CAP26 is using Doom Desire as its Steel-type STAB option. Given that we don't know CAP26's secondary typing, it will either need Corkscrew Crash or a secondary Steel-type STAB to deal with Tapu Lele properly. The first option forces CAP26 to use the team's Z-Crystal, and Z-Crystals are in high demand in CAP right now. Lots of sweepers and other pivots use them. If CAP26 HAS to run Steelium Z just to deal with Tapu Lele, it will suffer in its competition with other Steel-types. Similarly, we should avoid having to run two Steel-type STAB moves if we can, as that straps us for moveslots later down the line. If CAP26's moveset starts with Doom Desire / secondary Steel-type STAB, it's going to need some really good moves in its last two slots, and overwriting Doom Desire with a better, more generally good move becomes more possible.

Thus, it should be imperative that CAP26's secondary STAB a) doesn't make CAP26 neutral to Tapu Lele's STAB attacks and b) can deal appreciable damage to Tapu Lele. It doesn't have to OHKO Tapu Lele because, again, the goal of the project is not to counter Tapu Lele. Remember that Heatran pressures Tapu Lele with just Magma Storm or Lava Plume; it's entirely possible that CAP26 can as well (read: though, we also don't have to make a copy of Heatran). However, to encourage CAP26's use Doom Desire and its use on teams as a Steel-type pivot, we have to take pressuring Tapu Lele seriously into account for this project, especially during the Typing stage.

To this end, the following secondary typings will be undesirable for this project because Tapu Lele is immune to or resists them: Dragon, Fighting, Psychic.

D] Now, if we want CAP26 to stand out in the teambuilding process, it would be better if it didn't compete with established, Steel-type pivots. The two I'm going to pick on are Ferrothorn and Heatran. Between Spikes, Leech Seed, Knock Off, and the rare but deadly Thunder Wave, on top of Ferrothorn's capable two-move coverage, I'm very sure that a Steel / Grass CAP26 would either be overshadowed by Ferrothorn. Or, if we saturate CAP26's movepool with enough utility to make it more desirable than Ferrothorn, Doom Desire will not be on our movests. Bottomline, there are other effective typings we can pick without having to compete with Ferrothorn, the juggernaut among the current metagame's Steel-type pivots.

Heatran is next. Although it can be worn down quickly, its offensive presence is a potent force in the metagame - one of the best, as the the Metagame Council's nerfs (spoilers) will not move it down very far in the next VR update. Trying to compete with Heatran's splashability seems to be difficult as well, though less so than Ferrothorn.

Thus, I find Grass to be undesirable as a secondary typing, and Fire to be a little difficult to pull off.

Now, what about the other Steel-types in the metagame? Let's look at a couple quickly:

Magearna (Fairy): Magearna faces the issue of being worn down very quickly as a pivot, as it doesn't have the Leftovers recovery like Heatran or Stealth Rock utility.

Celesteela (Flying): As I have joked about on Discord, Celesteela is "allergic to Knock Off" - that is, if Celesteela loses its Leftovers, it's extremely hard to keep it healthy, even with Leech Seed.

Kitsunoh (Ghost): Kitsunoh has to run a fast, Choice Scarf set. I doubt that CAP26's main niche will involve a Choice Scarf, so I think we can differentiate it from Kitsunoh as well, especially if CAP26 ends up having more bulk.

4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?

Given my answers to question 3, I've come up with my 3 favorite typings: Steel / Ghost, Steel / Ground, and Steel / Flying.

Steel / Ghost is a very capable secondary typing. First, with a STAB attack that hits most of the metagame for neutral damage, CAP26 won't have to fill its second and third moveslots for attacking moves, leaving more flexibility in an otherwise inflexible movepool. Though Ghost-type STAB might not hit to many of the Steel resists in the metagame for super effective damage, it hits almost the entire metagame neutrally, and certainly will dent most offensive switch-ins, all in one moveslot, meaning less prediction on CAP26's part. Second, defensively, Steel / Ghost is an amazing defensive typing. With Aurumoth, Tapu Lele, and Mega Alakazam commonly running Focus Blast (and Aurumoth and Tapu Lele's best item being Fightinium Z), as well as Mega Medicham running High Jump Kick, Steel / Ghost has excellent switch-in opportunities against these Pokemon, can generally force them out, and set Doom Desire relatively freely. Additionally, it has a great match up against Magearna, which commonly runs Focus Blast as well, Tornadus-T which, again, sometimes runs Focus Blast, and Greninja, which is more commonly running Low Kick. These, in addition to Steel-types' normal good matchups, are great pivoting opportunities. Steel / Ghost is a great way to balance offensive and defensive utility.

Steel / Ghost fulfills all four criteria that I've outlined above in my answer to question 3.
A: Opportunities to switch in - Steel / Ghost has many relevant resistances
B: Offensive pressure with its secondary typing - neutral STAB against the most of the metagame
C: Exert pressure against Tapu Lele - super effective secondary STAB achieves this very well
D: Differentiate from established pivots (see Kitsunoh comment above)

Some counterarguments:

My problem with Steel/Ghost is the pursuit weakness.
This doesn't give enough credit to Steel / Ghost's positives, its amazing neutral coverage among its STAB options alone, and its ability to take on Pokemon that run Fighting-type coverage. There are ways that we can get around Pursuit if that's desired, through ability and movepool. Furthermore, because of Ghost's great neutral coverage, CAP26 can use its 3rd moveslot to get around these checks if it needs to. Also, Pursuit can be played around with double switches, so it's not a fatal weakness. Finally, CAP26 will use Doom Desire, which means that many of its KOes occur when it's not even on the field. Therefore, if CAP26 gets a kill with Doom Desire, the Pursuit Pokemon cannot have the free switch-in to CAP26 - it's not even on the field! Basically, without that free turn to freely switch in that Pursuit trapper, CAP26 will have an easier time against them in a real battle. Also, Pursuit trap is realistically one of Steel / Ghost's few vulnerabilities, so this weakness might be appreciated.

Saying Steel / Ghost is “essentially perfect” is quite an exaggeration. Having both a Knock Off and Pursuit weakness is quite devastating to a pivot, as it makes it less safe to switch in and less safe to switch out, respectively. Pursuit is particularly detrimental because it makes it much less safe for CAP 26 to switch out, which is the entire role of a pivot to begin with. I feel like people downplay this point quite a bit because it's "only one thing" but most Pursuit weak Pokemon are going to struggle as a pivot. To prove my point, the only viable Ghost-type pivot is Kitsunoh, which is not only a Steel / Ghost pivot we would have to compete with, but also only rose to viability because of Necturna, which is now nerfed. I also don't think Steel / Ghost provides much in the way of offensive utility. Sure it can hit most things neutrally but if you're not able to hit many relevant Doom Desire resist super-effectively then the potency of Doom Desire would become lessened as a result. The only relevant ones you'd hit are Slowking, Kitsunoh, and yourself. That's it. For these reasons, I'd also advise against Steel / Psychic.
Kitsunoh and CAP26 will serve entirely different purposes. Kitsunoh is fast, frail, and even if it had a half-way decent Special Attack, wouldn't be able to pull off Doom Desire well because it's not a pivot like Future Sight Slowking is. Furthermore, you're right that Kitsunoh rose to viability because of Necturna, but Kitsunoh's stats are what hold it back. In fact, it's still in use despite the Necturna nerf due to Tapu Lele's prominence in the metagame, and now it can check Stone Edge Mega Crucibelle. 80 / 103 / 85 / 55 / 80 / 110 stats just wouldn't cut it in this kind of a metagame, but you know what's the only thing that's keeping it relevant at all? Its unique resist palate from Steel / Ghost, combined with an excellent STAB attack in Shadow Strike. Finally, I think you're underestimating Ghost's neutral coverage against the metagame. Remember that, against offensive switch-ins, the Pokemon that GMars has decided us to focus on, taking a good 30%-40% means a lot, especially against switch-ins like Heatran, Krilowatt, and Volkraken.

So, I don't think CAP26 and Kitsunoh realistically compete with one another - they play entirely different roles. Furthermore, I think you've misconstrued why Kitsunoh is relevant at all, sure it rose to prominence because of Necturna, but it's still relevant because of its Steel / Ghost typing. Finally, Ghost-type STAB is neutrally good across the metagame, so it can serve its purpose of forcing switches.

Next, let's look at Steel / Ground:

Steel / Ground is more offensive than Steel / Ghost, but it provides a good amount defensive utility for its more offensive nature. It hits many of Doom Desire's resists, but leaves some key ones like Celesteela, Zapdos, and Rotom-W. Furthermore, it doesn't hit Pokemon like Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, and Mega Latios, which can force it out. Ground-type moves can be paired with other moves that don't necessarily provide complete neutral coverage as well. I think it's a neat choice that also balances offensive and defense.

Steel / Ground also fulfills all four criteria that I've outlined above in my answer to question 3.
A: Opportunities to switch in - Steel / Ground can block opposing Volt Switch from Tapu Koko and Assault Vest Magearna, can stop Fleur Cannon / Thunderbolt / Calm Mind / Pain Split Magearna, has an even better matchup against Mega Crucibelle, though it suffers against opposing Weavile and Necturna
B: Offensive pressure with its secondary typing - This is where Ground truly shines, where it hits a lot of Doom Desire resists, and can pair well with other moves for good, neutral coverage.
C: Exert pressure against Tapu Lele - Since Tapu Lele doesn't resist Ground, it can be 3HKOed or 2HKOed with the secondary STAB, reducing the need to run Doom Desire / secondary Steel-type STAB move.
D: Differentiate from established pivots - Though Heatran uses Earth Power commonly, CAP26 can differentiate itself with STAB, a 4x resistance to Stealth Rock, and other attributes associated with a pivot that Heatran lacks. Also, given that Excadrill shares the same dual typing, I'll just say that a sand sweeper is a much different niche than a Doom Desire-using pivot.

A counterargument:

One of the first things that stands out on the VR is the amazing variety of offensive and defensive waters in the tier. Greninja, both Protean and Ash, Volkraken, Krilowatt, Arghonaut and Toxapex all inhabit parts of A-tier. Thus, to make a strong pivot that doesn't get blown apart, we should probably avoid dual typings that are water-weak. This means that despite how much CAP 26 would appreciate Earth Power for Krilowatt, Heatran, Arghonaut, Magearna, and Magnezone, we should probably avoid Steel-Ground.
The fact that Water-types exists in the tier is true. However, Protean Greninja runs Low Kick, Krilowatt runs Earth Power, and Arghonaut runs Earthquake, which are problems for any secondary typing unless that secondary typing specifically addresses it. Volkraken's a problem for any Steel-type, even if it takes neutral damage from Fire-type attacks (thus, you don't see Kyurem-B as a team's sole Volkraken check). Thus, as a Steel-type, we're likely to be weak to at least some of these anyway. Furthermore, all of those aside from Arghonaut probably won't want to tank repeated Ground-type STAB moves anyway, so free switch-in opportunities are limited at best.

Steel / Flying is slowly creeping up my favorites list. Compared to Steel / Ghost, we trade an immunity to Fighting-type coverage and amazing netural coverage against the metagame for an immunity to Ground-type coverage, good coverage against the metagame (notably NOT against opposing Steel-types though), and a lack of Pursuit weakness. These changes are rather profound though, as special Flying-type STABs are notably less consistent than Ghost-type's, the neutrality to Fighting-type coverage means that Psychic-types can feasibly break through with them (like they do with Celesteela). Again, we can differentiate a Steel / Flying type from Celesteela rather easily by being less passive and less reliant on Leftovers for recovery.

Steel / Flying also fulfills all four criteria that I've outlined above in my answer to question 3.
A: Opportunities to switch in - Ground-type immunity gives it so many opportunities, including Landorus-T, Arghonaut, Garchomp, Diancie, and Syclant.
B: Offensive pressure with its secondary typing - It definitely dents most of the metagame with Flying-type STAB, but it notably cannot damage opposing Steel-types or Electric-types. Also, the STAB moves themselves are a bit inconsistent.
C: Exert pressure against Tapu Lele - Tapu Lele won't want to tank repeated hits from Flying-type STAB, as long as they connect.
D: Differentiate from established pivots - Again, there are enough ways to differentiate CAP26 from Celesteela, even outside of just Doom Desire and using actual Flying-type STAB attacks.

Now, for some other counterarguments:

Both Steel / Electric and Steel / Bug are notable for their STAB pivot moves. Electric is the more discussed one but, while a STAB Volt Switch synergizes well with our Special Attacker, doesn’t provide much defensive utility that would allow us to become a more effective pivot (in fact, it’s arguable that the 4x Ground weakness would make us a worse pivot as we would be much more vulnerable to ground coverage, like HP Ground Jumbao). It could be argued the same for Bug, as HP Fire or other Fire coverage, like Flame Burst Jumbao, is prevalent as well, but I think this is mitigated by the two useful resistances Bug provides to Fighting and Ground. However, U-turn could contradict CAP 26 because it is a physical attack but I don’t foresee this as too much of an issue because of Special Attackers like Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T running U-turn nevertheless.
As a Pivot however, CAP26 might want to be able to take momentum through pivoting moves, thus the Steel/Electric or Steel/Bug typing seems appropriate.
Let's make something clear; CAP26 being a pivot does NOT imply utilizing pivoting moves. I know, SunMYSER, that you didn't say that exactly, but it's a point that I feel that I have to make clear early on in this process.

So, I don't care whether or not a Pokemon has STAB on a pivoting move; if it's not backed by a respectable attack stat, it doesn't matter whether the attack is STAB boosted or not. Syclant can pull off a reasonable mixed attacking set (its "Offensive Spikes" set) with U-turn, and it can definitely dent switch-ins with U-turn, but that's because it also has a Base 116 Attack stat (basically equal to its Special Attack stat). If it wasn't STAB, or even if Syclant had an awful attack stat, I'm sure we'd still see U-turn because you're using it for the pivoting effect. As a Doom Desire user, CAP26 probably won't have the Attack to spare making the pivot move's damage output worthwhile. Otherwise, Steel / Bug, for this CAP, turns Ground- and Fighting- into a neutrality, which are somewhat useful, but I definitely think there better typings that exert more offensive pressure (as I have outlined above).

Rarely are you using pivoting moves for raw damage, unless your name is Choice Specs Tapu Koko or Choice Band Syclant. You're using it for the pivoting effect. I don't dislike Steel / Electric because it technically fulfills the 4 criteria, but imo we must avoid pivoting moves for this concept to succeed. I outlined this in my last Concept Assessment post. To provide one more perspective on pivoting moves, I'll ask this: do we want to risk pivoting moves, which generate momentum more efficiently than Doom Desire, pushing Doom Desire out of a moveslot? Because that's a legitimate concern, and I don't want Steel / Electric to imply that a pivoting move is a shoe-in: for this concept it's not.

As for ones I think should be avoided, I also agree with Jordy on the three types he mentioned avoiding; I think those suggestions are pretty sensible. Another one I agree with is Steel / Fairy, as it competes too much with Magearna, the biggest special attacking Steel in the metagame.
(Disclaimer: I'm sorry for having picked apart your entire post Felines; I just disagree with most everything you've said.) While yes, Magearna can act as a pivot with Assault Vest, it's not a very effective pivot. In Jordy's words, "av gear sucks." Joking aside, we can make a Steel / Fairy pivot that's much different than Magearna, one that doesn't care as much about losing its item. Most of Magearna's viability arises from its sweeping sets anyway, according to the set viability rankings (read: in the incoming VR update, Magearna will rise, but not due to Assault Vest). Basically, I don't think Magearna will overshadow CAP26 as a Steel / Fairy pivot. Steel / Fairy also fulfills our criteria, but I'm still contemplating whether or not I like it.

Also, if anyone is wondering, Mega Mawile is not a pivot, despite having decent bulk. It's a wallbreaker; we can differentiate from that as well.

Steel: Mono steel has an incredible defensive presence due to its excellent matchups vs many of the most dominant typings in the metagame currently, namely Psychic and Fairy. The main allure of Mono Steel I feel is the absence of a secondary typing, allowing defensive checks to have a much easier time switching in, incentivising Passive answers as we have discussed should be the way forward in order to keep Doom Desire the centre of attention. However, the lack of secondary STAB puts more pressure on 26's Teammates to take advantage of the Doom Desire however, as it will likely be unable to deal with offensive answers as easily.
I'm not sure if CAP26 can have the offensive pressure it needs without STAB on its coverage moves. Additionally, CAP26 can make use of additional resistances alongside Steel-types' great resist set. It's an interesting take on the concept, but I don't think the project can fully explore what Doom Desire has to offer without focusing on the offensive pressure CAP26 has to exert aside from Doom Desire.

Steel/Dragon is an interesting option to provide neutrality to Fire attacks, which could help carve out an interesting niche as a defensive Steel-type. More importantly, it could allow us to better check many of the Dragon-types that could otherwise gain offensive momentum or set up on a CAP 26 focused on using Doom Desire, most notably Garchomp, Charizard X, Kingdra, and Lati@s. A fun additional benefit of this typing could be that it provides STAB for phasing commonly seen on Slowbro/king sets that have already demonstrated delayed damage moves can be an effective strategy in other tiers.
The problem with a neutrality to Fire-type attack is that Fire-types in the CAP Metagame are really strong. I'm thinking Volkraken, Heatran, and Mega Charizard-Y. Defensive Fire-types like Mollux and Pyroak just aren't relevant. Thus, I don't know how much Steel / Dragon being neutral to Fire-type attacks really matters. There are a lot of assumptions to be made with this conclusion, but we're likely looking at near OHKOs to OHKOs being turned into near 2HKOs and 2HKOs. I think it's better to simply accept that Steel-types are weak to Fire-type attacks, and it's going to take a lot of babying to make them actually tank these Fire-type nukes well. Furthermore, Steel / Dragon CAP26 cannot pressure Tapu Lele with its secondary STAB, meaning that it will have to run Flash Cannon or Steelium Z to reliably tackle it. Finally, the phazing move you mention falls under the same boat as pivoting moves above: it doesn't matter if you have STAB on the move, what matters is the Attack stat, and with us specializing in Doom Desire, I'm not sure how much Attack we'll have to spare. Realistically, we can utilize that phazing move regardless of our typing, so, even if we don't get Steel / Dragon, we can still explore phazing's interactions with Doom Desire, which imo are rather interesting.

Fighting has the benefit of providing STAB towards the Steel type switch ins, while providing the coverage to hit all but the following neutrally; Kitsunoh, Volcarona, Gyarados, Char-Y, Victini, and Marowak-A from the offensive switch-ins. Fighting is a premier type providing resistance to Pursuit as well due to the ability to hit STAB Pursuit users hard, so this pokemon in itself is not unduly affected by Hazards switching in, and Hazard's switching out. This is counteracted by neutral resistances to Psychic and Fairy, which given that we want to bait in Fairy Types to a Doom Desire, this neutrality is actually a point in our favour - Using 252 SpA with neutral nature Steel/Fighting Jirachi as the base for the damage, Calm 252 SpD Jumbao switching in the turn Doom Desire hits is OHKO'd by Focus Blast; chip even without Rocks/Spikes. It allows defensive switch-ins to be largely still resilient, but only 3 mon (of which one is Chansey, the others Ferrothorn and Aggron-M) are hit SE by that coverage. It's a significantly powerful offensive typing otherwise seen on Cobalion and Lucario.
Fighting is absolutely awful for this project. As I've said on Discord, Fighting takes all of Steel type's great defensive potential and throws it in the garbage. Suddenly, key resistances to Psychic, Fairy, and Flying are just gone with secondary Fighting typing, and those attacks are the main reasons why you run Steel-types in the first place, given the prominence of Tornadus-T, Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, Jumbao, Mega Mawile, etc. Thus, adding Fighting, which does improve our offense, makes our ability to pivot in and out of battle awful, which directly contradicts the final concept assessment post. Thus, Fighting should not be an option for a secondary typing for CAP26.

One final one is Normal. The most notable part of this typing is additional weakness to Fighting in exchange for the ability to avoid getting trapped by Pajantom, who often runs Assault Vest and 252 SpD. It is effectively singletype Steel, but provides some slight mechanical buff to those who Resist Steel while lacking the Steel type themselves, due to STAB Return or potentially Facade. Unlike the two above this turns CAP26 into its own defensive counter.
The additional weakness to Fighting is actually extremely relevant, as it will have 0 chance to survive Focus Blast from Tapu Lele, Mega Alakazam, and Tornadus-T, as well as Protean Greninja's Low Kick or Mega Mawile's Brick Break, without bending over backwards with defenses. These are Pokemon that CAP26, as a Steel-type pivot that wants to be able to compete with other Steel-type pivots, should be able to deal with. Second, PAJANTOM DOES NOT AND SHOULD NOT RUN ASSAULT VEST. Heal Block is simply too good to give up, and Assault Vest prevents its use. Monotyped Steel would actually be miles better than Steel / Normal.
 
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Deck Knight

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GMars said:
3) During Concept Assessment, we came to the conclusion that a pivot is an ideal role for CAP 26. What typings would best allow CAP 26 to be an attractive choice in this role while teambuilding in the CAP meta? What typings should be avoided for success in this role?

4) We've come to a consensus that we would like CAP 26 to pressure offensive answers to Doom Desire by itself and that it would be ideal to allow CAP 26 to be vulnerable to defensive answers to Steel. What typings strike this balance well, specifically including what offensive Pokemon they help against and what defensive answers they allow?
My approach to these questions is more along the lines of what potential tools a secondary typing could grant to our Steel STAB, as well as potential liabilities.

Pure Steel:
Tools
:
STAB on Doom Desire
potential Priority
Toxic immunity
Sand Storm immunity
Stealth Rock reistance
No 4x weaknesses

Liabilities:
Limited offensive potential

Before considering other types, I think it's good to pause on what traits we already have in the typing. The greatest "hidden tool" in Pure Steel is that it gives more wiggle room to up power later in the process. We shouldn't sleep on Steel alteady self-containing a lot of desirable traits.

Secondary candidates:
Steel/Normal

Added Tools:
Stronger potential Priority
Strong neutral hits
Immunity to Spirit Shackle/Ghost Attacks

Added Liabilities:
4x fighting weakness
Requires split offenses to get the most out of tools.
Limited super-effective offensive potential

Normal is a bit rough to deal with because the power gap from Hyper Voice to Boomburst is significant, and although Wring Out is actually fantastic with Doom Desire, it's not that reliable as an immediate STAB after hazards and chip. It doesn't have anything to fear from Pajantom's STABs, and walls Necturna (though post-nerf this isn't as important.)

Steel/Dark
Added Tools:
STAB on Pursuit
Psychic Immunity
Strong potential Priority
Strong Neutral Coverage
Resists Knock Off/Pursuit
Immune to Prankster Status
Pressures Psychic / Ghost Types

Added Liabilities:
4x Fighting weakness
Loses Bug Resistance
Loses Fairy Resistance

Steel/Dark is a typing with a lot of tradeoffs for the tools it brings. It probably has the worst matchup possible against Arghonaut, but hits most of the rest for neutral. It probably has a different idealized build than other type options because Dark Pulse's flinch chance is nasty combined with Doom Desire for piling on unanswered damage, but I feel like it's a plausible direction.

Steel/Psychic
Added Tools:
Adds 4x Psychic resistance
Adds Fighting neutrality
Pressures Fighting types

Added Liabilities:
Removes Bug Resistance
Adds Weakness to Knock Off/Pursuit
Adds Weakness to Spirit Shackle/ Ghost moves

This is probably the only project where I would argue Steel/Psychic is superior to Steel/Ghost, which I actually pan below. Although I consider the weakness to Knock Off especially and Pursuit to a degree problematic, a Pokemon platformed for Doom Desire can also platform for Future Sight, and the move has excellent partner potential. Tapu Lele is a decent partner for this type pairing, and Psychic STAB + Psychic Terrain gives an option with an incredible 270 BP accounting for STAB in a choke situation where Dark types would need to eat a STAB Moonblast to try and absorb it. This typing does have a terrible marchup against Pajantom though, a mon which likes to punish direct pivot strategies.

Steel/Ground
Added Tools:
4x Stealth Rock Resistance
Volt Switch / Electric immunity
Pressures Fire / Steel / Electric types (but not Zapdos/Rotom-W/Celesteela.)

Added Liabilities:
Removes Grass Resistance
Removes Ice Resistance
Adds Water Weakness

Steel/Ground has probably the most popular general support, and for good reasons. It is definitely the most relevant to shifting the type chart matchups, and its ability to cold stop Volt Switch pivoting is a great pivoting tool. It attracts more defensive Water types like Arghonaut (though also Greninja) and doesn't have much associated cost. It makes a slew of offensive Fire types much more hesitant to switch in, as well as Cychlohm. I think enough has been said by others that I don't need to ass much more.

Finally, there are two types which I feel fall into the category of looking appealing but having some serious liabilities.

Steel/Ghost - the two big liabilities here are Dark weakness and low offensive power. Knock Off is arguably the worst part of Dark weakness over Pursuit. Pursuit has a few poweful users with STAB, but the bigger danger is Knock Off from crazy attackers like Kartana to pivots like Tornadus-T and Tangrowth. While I've been pushing Z-sets, a lot of Discord discussion has centered around sets much more susceptible to Knock Off. Ghost typing also gives Pajantom a lot of power to threaten CAP and do a lot of damage with Spirit Shackle even if it won't trap, so that is something to consider as well. Pajantom is the natural enemy of direct pivoting strategies that we seem to be aiming for, best not to exacerbate that.

On the offensive end, Shadow Ball may hit most targets neutrally but it has pretty low overall power. It isn't going to deter many offensive threats from coming in unless CAP has something like Chandelure level SpA, and I feel that's going to be really hard to balance.

Steel/Fairy: The biggest liability here is probably competition. It's just a very generically good type that makes a great pivot, but already has two great competing bulky offensive threats in Mega Mawile and Magearna. These threats are already prepared for and it would make it very difficult for CAP to muscle in for one of their slots given they have their own unique niches.

There are other types mentioned in the thread, but I felt like some of these needed more exploration. Will probably backtrack to this post a little later.
 
Pajantom does run Assault Vest. It does run max SpD. 1 in 3 do. Only 1 in maybe 6 run Heal Block. The stats (1760) speak for it. Regardless, Earthquake is capable of dealing SE damage after being trapped in any case. Tapu Lepe can't stay into Doom Desire with Jirachi level offenses and is often choice locked anyway. Protect + Doom Desire was an obvious combination. And Fighting moves should be something that Steel struggles with.

As for Fairy/Flying/Psychic Resists to switch in, if that was what you wanted, then that is what we should have run as the concept.
 
Pajantom does run Assault Vest. It does run max SpD. 1 in 3 do. Only 1 in maybe 6 run Heal Block. The stats (1760) speak for it. Regardless, Earthquake is capable of dealing SE damage after being trapped in any case. Tapu Lepe can't stay into Doom Desire with Jirachi level offenses and is often choice locked anyway. Protect + Doom Desire was an obvious combination. And Fighting moves should be something that Steel struggles with.

As for Fairy/Flying/Psychic Resists to switch in, if that was what you wanted, then that is what we should have run as the concept.
The ladder is not considered a valid measure of what is good or should be run. The sample size is poor and it's flooded with bad players running poorly optimized sets, even at high ranks, because they got there by beating the other bad players with poorly optimized sets. If you ask anyone with serious knowledge about the CAP metagame, they will tell you that the ladder is not a valid source of information and you are much better off looking at tours.

Regardless, Pajantom is not going to fail to beat a steel pokemon, unless it's steel/normal with levitate, which is, I'm going to go out on a bold limb here and say, not very likely. You can easily avoid being trapped by Pajantom by switching out, which is what you would be doing, instead of staying in on an Earthquake and getting demolished, which is what it would use against your hypothetical steel/normal anyway.
 
We haven't had threat assessment yet, but I thought maybe I'd run some calculations to analyze a few key questions as they pertain to our typing:

- How bad is a 4x Fighting Weakness (which is a problem we'd face if we select Dark)?
- How helpful is a Fighting Neutrality compared to Weakness (which we'd gain if we select Flying or Psychic)
- How bad is a Dark-type weakness in practice? (which we'll have if we are Psychic or Ghost)

I am analyzing these questions specifically because I am running with a few assumptions I've seen; namely that we need to be able to threaten Tapu Lele, we need to be able to switch-in on Tyranitar-M and M-Crucibelle, and that we need to be a viable pivot into other powerful Psychic, Flying, and Fairy types like M-Alakzam, Jumbao, Magearna, Diancie, and Tornadus.

For all calculations, I looked at 90/105/105 bulk and 252 HP EVs (but 0 defensive EVs and a neutral nature and no Leftovers or AV or anything weird). This is Heatran-esque bulk. Obviously, we are capable of being MUCH bulkier with abilities, movepool, stats, nature, items, or EV investment - this is merely to give an idea of what a somewhat offensive Pivot might look like, and to give an idea of how much we're going to have to sacrifice if we go with certain typings. Note for all calcs, you'll see me say "Pure Steel" CAP - but any typing that maintains Steel's normal interactions to those types would have the same situation. Also note other types might be resistant - I'll say things like "Flying/Fairy/Psychic" CAP because Bug and Poison (which also resist Fighting) don't seem to have an overwhelming amount of support.

Versus Common Fighting Attacks: There aren't actually that many high-ranked Fighting types, so we're more concerned with Fighting Coverage from some key threats (i.e., the Focus Blast of Lele, Alakzam, and Torn-T and the Low Kick of Greninja). For sake of argument I also threw in Hawlucha (The highest ranked Fighting-type that actually runs a threatening Fighting STAB). I didn't bother looking at Arghonaut, as my research indicated we need to be much more worried about Argh's Earthquake and Knock-off than his fighting STAB (as he often runs Circle Throw if he runs anything at all these days). I will edit in Close Combat/Drain Punch Arghonaut leater, if we determine we want to see it.

Tapu Lele:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pure Steel CAP : 252-298 (65.6 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flying, Fairy, or Psychic CAP: 126-149 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Normal or Dark CAP: 504-596 (131.2 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Greninja
252 Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP: 204-240 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flying/Fairy/Psychic CAP: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Protean Greninja Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 0 SpD Normal or Dark CAP (106.2 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega-Alakzam
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pure Steel CAP: 314-370 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flying/Fairy/Psychic CAP: 157-185 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dark/Normal CAP: 628-740 (163.5 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tornadus
:
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pure Steel CAP: 224-264 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Flying/Fairy/Psychic CAP: 112-132 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dark/Normal CAP: 448-528 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hawlucha
:
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP : 356-420 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flying/Fairy/Psychic CAP: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark/Normal CAP: 712-840 (185.4 - 218.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Initial conclusions: If we select a Dark or Normal typing, we will need to do so knowing that there is likely no realistic way to stop Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam from OHKOing us with Focus Miss - if they hit us, we will disintegrate. I quick-checked and even with increased (Ferrothorn-esque) bulk and max SpD investment (including a +SpD nature) we are going to get OHKOd clean by Alakazam and be 33% to get OHKOd by Lele. Now, our mission is not "counter Tapu Lele and M-Alakazam" - but as a naturally Psychic-resistant 'mon who wants to be a Pivot and who has a move that is SUPPOSED to strike terror and doom into the hearts of frail glass cannons (especially of the Fairy persuasion), we will face an uphill battle if we build a 'mon that gets eaten by their common coverage.

None of these mon's are OHKOing a Pure Steel (or other 2x Fighting-weak typing like Ground or Electric) CAP 26 except maybe Tapu Lele with Fightinium-Z. We can stomach at least one non-STAB fighting attack while we set up a DD before pulling back, which is pro-concept enough if we don't want to specifically wreck these 'mons.

Gaining a Fighting neutrality is actually kind of a big deal, as it allows us to set up in the face of these 'mons (at least, the ones who don't have STAB on their fighting attacks) and force the situations we want: now we have a Doom Desire hanging over their head and our opponent needs to either switch out these intimidating offensive monsters or sacrifice them to DD. And of course, if we change all of those to "lol aim for the horn" with a Ghost typing, things just get spicier.

Again, we haven't selected threats and targets yet, but I want to make sure we're clear-eyed in what we sacrifice practically by selecting a typing. For my part, this means that I think that a Dark or Normal typing is unfeasible in making a viable and successful CAP 26 (and it reinforces my dismissal of Ice and Rock, which will cause similar problems but haven't had any support).

Versus Common Dark and Ghost Attacks: Dark and Ghost enter the conversation because we are wanting a Pivot - and Pivots who get smacked around by Knock-off and Pursuit and hit SE by Pajantom's Spirit Shackle are in for a bad time (or at least, so the argument goes). We are naturally neutral to these moves, and adding on Ground and Electric typing would keep us that way. However, Fairy, Ghost, Psychic, and Dark are gaining some amount of traction and they all impact these matchups in various ways so I figured I'd take a look under the hood. I'll look at 4 match-ups: Mega Tyranitar, Weavile, AV Tyranitar, and Defensive Pajantom. I chose not to look at Colossoil due to its frankly insane attacking stats, the fact that it rarely runs Pursuit, and its access to Earthquake (which makes it so that even if we are "Dark Resistant", we're likely still Ground-weak to its Earthquake). You can infer plenty about that matchup based on our T-tar matchup anyhow. I chose not to look at Necturna because of the recent nerfs which make me reluctant to even try and find a "common set" and because again you an infer a lot from the Pajantom matchup. I chose not to look at Offensive Pajantom because its Earthquake is much more dangerous to these typings than its STAB Spirit Shackle.
Versus AV Tyranitar:

32 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel: 109-130 (28.3 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel: 55-66 (14.3 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 218-260 (56.7 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 110-132 (28.6 - 34.3%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fairy/Dark CAP: 54-65 (14 - 16.9%) -- possible 6HKO
32 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Fairy/Dark CAP : 27-33 (7 - 8.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Versus Mega-Tyranitar
:
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP : 84-99 (21.8 - 25.7%) -- 1.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 330-390 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark/Fairy CAP: 42-49 (10.9 - 12.7%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark/Fairy CAP: 82-97 (21.3 - 25.2%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

Versus Weavile
:
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP: 216-255 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP: 178-210 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel CAP: 90-106 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 74.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 432-510 (112.5 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 356-420 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghots CAP: 180-212 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark/Fairy CAP: 108-127 (28.1 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark/Fairy CAP: 89-105 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- 59.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit (40 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark/Fairy CAP: 45-53 (11.7 - 13.8%) -- possible 8HKO


Versus Defensive Pajantom:
0 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pure Steel: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Psychic/Ghost CAP: 212-252 (55.2 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pajantom Spirit Shackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dark CAP: 53-63 (13.8 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO

Conclusions: Predictably, it's hard to live a banded attack from Weavile even if the hit is neutral, nevermind if we make ourselves weak to Dark attacks. More disappointingly, a Dark weakness makes our life really hard versus AV Ttar, who actually ends up not caring so much about our DD between its vest, the sandstorm, and and its high native bulk. We also get mangled by Mega-Ttar and lose a LOT of HP to Pajantom. These things aren't deal breakers but we have to look at whether the trade-off in our match-up versus these 'mons versus mons with fighting coverage is worthwhile, knowing we can "take a third option" such as Steel/Flying or Steel/Fairy that still does a lot of what we'd like against Fighting without sacrificing our matchup versus Dark and Ghost types. As a final nail in the coffin, however, I'd say that we don't gain enough from being Dark-typed to make up for the Fighting weakness; assuming we have even just bog standard leftover recovery we're not in any real danger from Ttar or Pajantom.

For my part, I feel like all this writing has made me determine that contrary to my initial posting, Dark/Steel and Dark/Normal are poor typings for our objectives and Steel/Psychic is "strictly worse" than Dark/Ghost and should also be ignored. I also gained a fair amount of respect for Steel/Fairy and Steel/Flying - while Ghost demands trade-offs, these typings are "all upside" at least when it comes to these two areas.
 

snake_rattler

Pajantom's Daddy
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Pajantom does run Assault Vest. It does run max SpD. 1 in 3 do. Only 1 in maybe 6 run Heal Block. The stats (1760) speak for it. Regardless, Earthquake is capable of dealing SE damage after being trapped in any case. Tapu Lepe can't stay into Doom Desire with Jirachi level offenses and is often choice locked anyway. Protect + Doom Desire was an obvious combination. And Fighting moves should be something that Steel struggles with.

As for Fairy/Flying/Psychic Resists to switch in, if that was what you wanted, then that is what we should have run as the concept.
First, the general consensus among the community is that ladder stats are a poor metric to use due to the small sample size of games. Someone probably ran Assault Vest Pajantom, which cannot run Heal Block (thus the low usage of that move) for a decent amount of games and pushed that stat up that high. We are trying to improve the ladder; however, right now it just should not be considered a source of information. Aside from that, Assault Vest Pajantom is an ineffective set that can be exploited many Pokemon in the metagame; it simply isn't a set to account to build CAP26's typing around. If it were a relevant set, I would have written it for the Pajantom analysis, but it hasn't been shown to be good in the slightest.

Second, the posts in concept assessment explain the best way to use Doom Desire. Review Mx's post, Mythlore's post, and Gross Sweep's post. It's about locking your opponent into lose-lose situations with your teammates. DK's post, after he explains how Protect interacts with Doom Desire, explains how Protect would not be the primary interaction with Doom Desire (second to last paragraph). Also, established Future Sight users in NU don't even use Protect. Protect + Doom Desire definitely not an obvious combination, especially after all of the concept assessment posts.

Third, "a Pokemon that resists Fairy, Flying, and Psychic" isn't a concept; it's illegal. Anyway, the SHSP's final post in the Concept Assessment thread has confirmed that we're a pivot and using Doom Desire. Furthermore, from GMars's last post in this thread, it's crucial to have STAB on Doom Desire, which means we have Steel typing. Thus, if we want CAP26 to have any chance at play in the metagame, it has to be able to compete with other Steel-type pivots like Heatran, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Magearna for a teamslot. The bottom line is that Psychic-types like Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, Mega Latios, and Aurumoth; Fairy-types like Magearna, Jumbao, Mega Mawile, and Mega Diancie; and the metagame's premier offensive Flying-type Tornadus-T, which is S-rank and seen on basically every team due to being the most viable Defogger in the metagame, make Steel-type pivots extremely effective. If CAP26 cannot tackle at least some of these Pokemon, it cannot compete with the aforementioned Steel-type pivots. Thus, since Mega Alakazam, Tapu Lele, Mega Latios, Aurumoth, Magearna, Mega Mawile, offensive Jumbao, and Tornadus-T run Focus Blast or Fighting-type coverage, it would be extremely detrimental for CAP26 to be weak to Fighting-type moves. Also, all of these Pokemon have analyses in the works or uploaded on site (check the links by each Pokemon on the VR), so you can confirm their good and effective sets there. Steel / Normal (and Steel / Dark for that matter) would be awful for this concept.
 
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