SPOILERS! Pokemon Sword & Shield Pre-Release SPOILERS - Check Post 2!

[welsknight]

Random question that I'm not sure has been brought up before, but apologies if it has, will there even be enough Pokemon to support all the tiers that are currently in the game? Pretty sure we just had OU/UU/NU the last time the dex was this small.

I highly doubt it. It looks like Ubers is going to consist of maybe 5-10 Pokemon, essentially an OU banlist. I wouldn't be surprised to see just OU/UU/NU again.

It's also possible that the Smogon community will ultimately decide to settle on "Gen 8 Pokebank" tiers (or something similar) that allow all existing Pokemon to be used, despite what's actually in SwSh.

 

[Reddit Gold User]

I highly doubt it. It looks like Ubers is going to consist of maybe 5-10 Pokemon, essentially an OU banlist. I wouldn't be surprised to see just OU/UU/NU again.

It's also possible that the Smogon community will ultimately decide to settle on "Gen 8 Pokebank" tiers (or something similar) that allow all existing Pokemon to be used, despite what's actually in SwSh.

I suppose but that doesn't have precedent right? Official tiers always felt somewhat in line with cartridge in the past but I don't really care either way.

 

[oreofestar]

I suppose but that doesn't have precedent right? Official tiers always felt somewhat in line with cartridge in the past but I don't really care either way.

Well probably have an unrestricted tier and an official galar dex tier but it wouldn't surprise me at all if the former was more popular.

 

[VannAccessible]

Heh, I keep noticing people are like “Hawlucha made it back! Yay!”

Did you forget how ass Hawlucha was in its debut generation? The only thing that let it use Unburden reliably to be a nifty Ditto-proof sweeper this gen was the Tapus with their automatic terrain setting and the seed items.... but the Tapus are goners.

Maybe there will be some new auto terrain setters, but I doubt it.

Sorry Hawlucha. :/

 

[chicobo329]

Heh, I keep noticing people are like “Hawlucha made it back! Yay!”

Hawlucha is really popular in speedruns at least, it's a main go-to in X/Y runs after a few prior main switches and is used extensively in Gen VII routing.

 

[TenshouYoku]

Heh, I keep noticing people are like “Hawlucha made it back! Yay!”

Did you forget how ass Hawlucha was in its debut generation? The only thing that let it use Unburden reliably to be a nifty Ditto-proof sweeper this gen was the Tapus with their automatic terrain setting and the seed items.... but the Tapus are goners.

Maybe there will be some new auto terrain setters, but I doubt it.

Sorry Hawlucha. :/

That Hawlucha you can trade with an NPC in Sun/Moon, despite with an atrocious nature, kicks a hell ton of ass.

 

[VannAccessible]

Hawlucha is really popular in speedruns at least, it's a main go-to in X/Y runs after a few prior main switches and is used extensively in Gen VII routing.

That’s nice and all, and of course its STAB combo rocks, but still, Hawlucha is still taking a big hit to its competitive viability.

I forgot to mention using Acrobatics effectively also requires losing its item. :/

 

[welsknight]

That’s nice and all, and of course its STAB combo rocks, but still, Hawlucha is still taking a big hit to its competitive viability.

I forgot to mention using Acrobatics effectively also requires losing its item. :/

Yeah, I can't imagine Hawlucha stays OU without Tapu support. Then again, with almost all of the current OU Pokemon being removed, who knows?

 

[oreofestar]

Heh, I keep noticing people are like “Hawlucha made it back! Yay!”

Did you forget how ass Hawlucha was in its debut generation? The only thing that let it use Unburden reliably to be a nifty Ditto-proof sweeper this gen was the Tapus with their automatic terrain setting and the seed items.... but the Tapus are goners.

Maybe there will be some new auto terrain setters, but I doubt it.

Sorry Hawlucha. :/

Theres max moves that set up terrain and the overall power level has gone down I think it's very safe to say it should be better than it was in XY

 

[astroshagger]

How big is the Singles OU cartridge scene around here? Do you guys think people will eschew cartridge Gen 8 for USUM OU?

 

[welsknight]

Posted this about an hour ago in the Dexit discussion thread, but this one seems to be the one where discussion is actually happening, so I'll put it here, too.

So this is the image that has been making the rounds on the internet:
White is Pokemon that got cut, green is Pokemon that are in Sword & Shield, and orange is Pokemon that are in with a new Galarian form.

We also are 99.9% sure that Mega-Evolutions and Z-Crystals will not be returning. Holy metagame differences, Batman!

Of current OU Pokemon, the only ones I noticed that are going to be in Sword & Shield are Tyranitar, Rotom, Excadrill, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Hawlucha, and Kommo-O. Hawlucha is debatable, because I really don't think it stays OU without Tapu support. I'm also not including anything that isn't OU without its Mega-Evolution or Z-Crystal (Gyarados, Charizard, Mawile, etc). I should also probably mention that I didn't spend hours going Pokemon-by-Pokemon, so I might have missed a couple.

For the first time in years, we're looking at a meta without Garchomp, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Heatran, and many, many other staples. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that SwSh is going to be a fun meta (it's way too early to know), but it's definitely going to be different.

Other things I've notices, as they pertain to Smogon metas:

• Sun teams have lost their best weather setter, as Charizard-Y will not be in the game.
• Rain teams no longer have Mega-Swampert to take advantage of the weather, but they still have Pelipper
• Sand teams lost Garchomp, but retained Excadrill and Tyranitar
• Ice teams: we don't know. Vulpix is in, but what about Alolan forms?
• The only starter from previous generations is Charizard. That means no Greninja, no Incineroar, no Serperior.
• There are basically no legendary or mythical Pokemon from previous gens other than Mew.
• Wouldn't be surprised if Toxapex gets banned from OU, as essentially all of its checks/counters have been removed.
• I think it's pretty much guaranteed that "power creep" seems to be moving backwards heavily with SwSh, which I guess is a good thing. Maybe we'll see a lot more viability for Pokemon that got largely overlooked in later generations.

 

[Jespoke]

How big is the Singles OU cartridge scene around here? Do you guys think people will eschew cartridge Gen 8 for USUM OU?

No way. There will probably be a lot of people going to the Gen 8 pokebank tiers if they are implemented. But i doubt the silent majority will even do that, let alone going back last gen. Unless Smogon decides to push pokebank over cartridge i guess.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Is this confirmed or are you just assuming?

It's just a joke...

I feel like we shouldn't be taking this for granted. None of us predicted Dexit happening. There's nothing saying Pokemon Home HAS to retain the moves brought over from Pokebank. For all we know, Gamefreak could do a hard reset on moves too.

... Or maybe not.

Is it just me or does Hydreigon 2HKO the entire proposed Regional Dex, while having a respectable speed tier.

Sounds like Ghetsis hatched his plans in the wrong region. Not only would his Hydreigon scrubbed the floor with the Galar Dex, but Team Plasma's Knights Templar theme would have fit WAY better.

My Opinions On The Galarian Pokemon Post Leak/Pre-Launch:

Less Of A Long Read

Meowth

What is with the sudden fascination with Meowth? Was its Alolan Form such a huge success they though to keep on that gravy train? Not only do we now have a Galarian Meowth but also a regional evoluton, Purrserker, but a special one can Gigantamax. You can now make an entire team made up of nothing but Meowth and its evolutions: normal Meowth (probably the one that can Gigantamax), Persian, Alolan Meowth, Alolan Persian, Galarian Meowth, & Purrserker.
Well, aside from the odd sudden fascination, how did Galarian Meowth and its evo come out? Well, originally I answered that question with a smiley and I stand by that smiley: .
What am I even looking at? And it's Steel-type now? Well, Purrserker's name and horns hint toward a viking basis, so let's see if that turns up anything. *One Google search later* Well I'll be a viking cat's chew toy. So turns out the vikings loved their cats and brought them on their voyages to keep the ship vermin free (something even modern ships do, they're called "ship's cat"). If you're wondering if Galarian Meowth is based on a certain breed, it is: the Norwegian Forest Cat. These cats have folklore status of being mountain dwelling "fairy cats" called "norsk skogkatt" and were prized as excellent hunters and climbers (legend saying they can climb any surface). Not sure why they aren't at least part Fairy-type, but at least explains the core design.

Rapidash

Sadly Galarian Rapidash doesn't grow a pair of wings, though since Ponyta starting growing a horn I guess that means Rapidash could have a longer horn. When I first saw it I thought it looked alright, but taking another look the more realistic eyes I feel kind of throws off the design. And thinking about it further, I kind of wished they did more with its cotton candy-colored mane. It does gain the Fairy-type becoming Psychic/Fairy so giving it a bit more of a ethereal design wouldn't be out of left field.

Farfetch'd

To many is seemed odd that Farfetch'd's leek suddenly grew several feet longer upon evolving to Sirfetch'd, making them believe there was a Galarian Farfetch'd. Well, out of all the questions GF could have answered this gen, this apparently was one of them as there is indeed a Galarian Farfetch'd and the poor thing has to drag around a huge leek on its back. Well, I guess all that dragging and back pain eventually pays off as it then evolves into Sirfetch'd and is able to carry its leek with one hand (and as a bonus uses the leafs to make a shield)! Not sure if Farfetch'd needed a Galarian Form but if in the end it got us Sirfetch'd then I say it's worth it.

Mr. Mime

Now I don't think Mr. Mime got a Galarian Form because they wanted to change it up, but rather because they had an idea for a regional evolution: Mr. Rime. I say this because Galarian Mr. Mime doesn't really change much in appearance, it just turns blue and swaps out Fairy-type for Ice-type.
No, the star here is Mr. Rime. It changes from being a mime clown to a proper gentlemen complete with top hat, mustache, buttoned suit, and a walking cane (all it's missing is a monocle). It's a cute design if not a sudden change for Mr. Mime to go through. Though with Mr. Mime now an Ice-type I would have hoped they would then give a regional variant to Jynx but alas no.

Corsola

Huh, GF ain't holding any punches this Gen. In a rather bold move, GF decided to remind us the climate change is killing all like on Earth slowly by reminding us the Great Barrier Reef is going through a massive bleaching (aka dying off as coral turns white when it dies) by doing the same to Corsola. No longer a happy-go-lucky Water/Rock-type, Galar's warmer waters have killed Galarian Corsola turning it into a sad Ghost-type. If that wasn't enough, it also has a regional evolution in Cursola where it looks like its soul has broke out of its old shell but it too solidified and now its stuck inside a rather haunting furniture piece.
Don't get me wrong, this design is brilliant, but this actually creeps me out. Which I guess is good as that's the point, you're supposed to be disturb because this is based on something that's happening now in real life and if we don't do something about it we'll also be going the way of the coral reef. But at the same time it also reminds me that there are corporations actively fighting to prevent climate change regulation and it makes me feel like Cursola: stuck and unable to do anything. Let's move onto something happier and less stressful.

Stunfisk

I love what they did here. They took the idea of Stunfisk being an ambush predator and went a direction with it I don't know how they got to it (maybe they were still on the drug that created the Dreepy family). Keeping with the idea you still have to step on it, they turned Stunfisk into a bear trap. But that's not all, in order to attract pray it has grown footprint-like markings on its body and, best of all, it's mouth changed colors to look like a Poke Ball! Stunfisk is this gen's Mimic Monster!

Darumaka family

I don't get what their obsession with turning Regional Variants into Ice-types especially if they were previously Fire-types...
Anyway, Darumaka itself is a classic example of how to turn a Fire-type into an Ice-type, pretty much replace its fire features with ice features. Pretty standard and doesn't look too bad, even if it doesn't look like it enjoys being an Ice-type as it did being a Fire-type.
However it's Darmanitan who's interesting. At first glance you may not even think its Darmanitan as it has a big snowball on its head. It kind of looks like a hat. A tall hat. Like the ones certain guards for a certain palace in England wear. Yup, Darmanitan was made into a Queen's Guard! Many were curious whether GF were going to include a Pokemon based on them for Galar, and they answered that curiosity in a way not many were probably expecting.
But this leaves an important question: can this Darmanitan also have Zen Mode and would it turn into an Ice/Psychic Zen Mode form? After all the most famous thing about the Queen's Guard is that they stand perfectly still on duty no matter the distractions thrown at them, would make sense for them to have an "On Guard" mode.

Yamask

Galarian Yamask is a bit funny. The ghost itself remains unchanged (except for its eyes turning from red to purple) but what it's carrying has. No longer from the land of antiquity, instead of a death mask this Yamask carries around another ancient artifact: a piece of a runestone. A small change, but its enough to change it into being a Ghost/Ground-type.
Now I was too busy trying to figure out Galarian Meowth to mention something surprising it and Galarian Yamask does: it has a regional evolution that's not what it usually evolves into. There's no Galarian Persian, and more important now is there is no Galarian Cofagrigus. Of course there isn't, there's no coffin. Instead, Yamask seems to have completely possessed a runestone, breaking it apart to form a stony armor and now goes by the name Runerigus. I imagine GF wanted to make a runestone Pokemon but couldn't think of a way to do it and somehow instead landed on this rather clever solution. This is how regional variants should be done! Instead of forcing something into becoming a Pokemon *looks at Stonjourner* they should consider finding an already existing Pokemon and give it regional variant of what they wanted to do (like maybe they could have done a Stonehenge regional variant using the Roggenrola family).

And that's it for the new Galarian Forms! Next time I'll look through that pic of returning/excluded Pokemon and note anything interesting that catches me eye. Seeya then!

 

[astroshagger]

No way. There will probably be a lot of people going to the Gen 8 pokebank tiers if they are implemented. But i doubt the silent majority will even do that, let alone going back last gen. Unless Smogon decides to push pokebank over cartridge i guess.

Wait, what are the Pokebank Tiers?

 

[welsknight]

Wait, what are the Pokebank Tiers?

They're basically just the regular Smogon tiers, but with all existing Pokemon considered.

 

[Shadowmax]

I know you'd love to play PU on cartridge but cartridge play is meant to be played the way they believe it's meant to be played.

Complete BS. Pokemon is ment to be play as what ever ther owner of the game wants. In fact most of the in game and online battles are in the singles format 6v6, only tournaments are meant to be played in the double format, so stop giving excuses to GF for reducing the options of gamers.

 

[GG Unit]

It would be neat if they add mons through events every month or so, like they did with mega stones in SM. Some spice for the metagame development

this! but knowing game freak i wouldnt be surprised if they sold it as DLC instead...

Well they'd require you to be connected to the Switch's paid online service, so it's no different from charging for DLC. You have to pay $5 a month or whatever just to be able to trade with or battle against people, and I'm sure that's going to be the only way to get certain Pokemon or hidden abilities.

 

[pkmfan]

About the starters from old gens. Is it possible these can be given out in the end game like in ORAS? Or if that was the case would they already be in the Galar Dex?

 

[MrHands]

So now that I'm on my PC, I really wanted to tackle on the "Competitive Balance" thing we were talking about.

Pokémon is intended by Game Freak to be played on cartridge, following their rules. TPCi uses this to determine specific rules each year, and, as a Pokémon Professor and VGC player, my first focus will always be on VGC. For VGC, the Dex is closer to Kalos one, and my favorite VGC season was VGC14, even with the likes of Dark Void Smeargle. Lots of Pokémon could fill a niche or be actually viable because of the limited Dex size.

Wtf are you talking about. Like 99.9% of in-game player battles are 6vX singles (X is however many mons the NPC has). Big boss battles and rematches are almost exclusively 6v6 singles. Most players doing vs with their friends naturally ramp it up to 6v6 at level 50.

Claiming the games are balanced with VGC in mind is ridiculous. VGC is organized by "Play! Pokemon" which is a subdivision of "The Pokemon Company". "The Pokemon Company" is owned in part by Nintendo, Gamefreak, and Creatures but for the most part operates independently. How much input Gamefreak actually has on VGC isn't clear to me but the huge gameplay differences between Single player Pokemon and VGC doubles makes it obvious everyone doesn't see eye to eye. Even when you compare Battle Spot Doubles to VGC the ban list is completely different.

If you like playing VGC that's fine but there's a huge reason why Pokemon, despite being arguably the largest most popular video game franchise ever, is almost unheard of as an e-sport.

 

[DFang]

About the starters from old gens. Is it possible these can be given out in the end game like in ORAS? Or if that was the case would they already be in the Galar Dex?

Pretty sure months ago official sources used Torterra as an example of a mon unavailable in normal play, but could become available in max raid battles. I could see certain popular Pokémon being treated this way, especially starters.

 

[Rarycaris]

So slightly tangential question to those that already own a Switch.

Am I best to rock up on the 15th and get the Switch and the game or will it be playable from midnight if I pre-download it.

You'll be able to play it immediately

Pretty sure months ago official sources used Torterra as an example of a mon unavailable in normal play, but could become available in max raid battles. I could see certain popular Pokémon being treated this way, especially starters.

This seems critically important if true. Do you happen to remember where you read it?

 

[DreamPrince]

Wtf are you talking about. Like 99.9% of in-game player battles are 6vX singles (X is however many mons the NPC has). Big boss battles and rematches are almost exclusively 6v6 singles. Most players doing vs with their friends naturally ramp it up to 6v6 at level 50.

Claiming the games are balanced with VGC in mind is ridiculous. VGC is organized by "Play! Pokemon" which is a subdivision of "The Pokemon Company". "The Pokemon Company" is owned in part by Nintendo, Gamefreak, and Creatures but for the most part operates independently. How much input Gamefreak actually has on VGC isn't clear to me but the huge gameplay differences between Single player Pokemon and VGC doubles makes it obvious everyone doesn't see eye to eye. Even when you compare Battle Spot Doubles to VGC the ban list is completely different.

If you like playing VGC that's fine but there's a huge reason why Pokemon, despite being arguably the largest most popular video game franchise ever, is almost unheard of as an e-sport.

The only actual differences between Gen 7 BSD and VGC 2018 was that Gen 6 Pokemon were allowed, so there were some combinations that could not appear in VGC 2018, most notably pup Kang and Static Zapdos. Other than that, they were 95% the same, including the ban list which only permitted Pokemon with the clover for Gen 7.

I wouldn't call it ridiculous. In Gen 6, Prankster and Priority was everywhere, particularly thanks to Kangaskhan and Thundurus. It got so bad that I began using Quick Guard on almost every team I used. In Gen 7, they nerfed Sucker Punch and Prankster as well as Parental Bond, thanks to their dominance in VGC. They even introduced Psychic Terrain, Queen Majesty, and Dazzling to disable priority. So they do indeed look at VGC when adding changes.

 

[Gravity Monkey]

Ok, so I wanted to discuss a little bit about a mon that hasn't really seen any discussion yet on this thread, all the while it's currently the number one threat on the Sword and Shield speculation meta in the pet mod subforum: Gyarados.

This mon is kind of in a weird place. It's easily revenge killed by anything electric. On the other hand, it is granted the perfect tools to snowball in Dragon Dance and Moxie, which it currently has. But what makes this mon truly strong in this meta is Dynamaxing. It gets Max Water and Flying (through Bounce), which respectively cast rain and increase speed by one, both of which are incredible tools at not only snowballing even more but getting rid of things that should normally check it like Ferrothorn and Quagsire. It can also take advantage of usual Dynamax countermeasures, like setting up on protect stall or baiting red card Mimikyus by not Dynamaxing. Its safest switch in is guagsire, who gets 2HKOd by Max Water under rain and has to forgo a slot on protect if it wants any chance of surviving or at least getting a kill before bringing in scarf Jolteon or red card Mimikyu. That's the problem, pretty much every time it enters safely on the field (its SR weakness doesn't even really hurt it), it gets a kill and needs specific counters not to rampage.

Now, at the time that I'm writing this, we don't really know what gen 8 pokemons could do against it, but there are things like Giga-Lapras and its auto-veil, so maybe in actuality it's not going to be that strong. I was just kinda curious about what you guys think about the threat that this mons represent for the shrunk dex. Also maybe your opinion on dynamaxing and if you think it's a good mechanic in a competitive environment.

tl;dr: Gyarados is pretty darn stronk in gen 8 because of dynamaxing

 

[MrHands]

tl;dr: Gyarados is pretty darn stronk in gen 8 because of dynamaxing

Gamefreak: We're cutting Pokemon to help balance the game.

Also Gamefreak: Every Pokemon can Dynamax.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Ok, do we actually know for sure that Lapras' G-Max move sets Aurora Veil and isn't just a more generic damage reducer? Because from what I remember of the leaked guidebook screenshot it didn't say it summoned Aurora Veil.