Dexit discussion thread

Codraroll

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Pokémon Sword and Shield will not include all Pokémon from previous generations. A significant fraction of the 807 Gen I - VII Pokémon will be impossible to transfer into the game. How many will be left out is currently not known.

This controversial decision - known as "Dexit" by fans - has sparked a lot of discussion in other threads, where it might not be on topic. But in here it is. This is the thread for all discussion about Dexit. Whether you think it was a good or bad discussion, tell us in here.

Please be civil, most of you would without saying, but I'm saying it just in case. Regular forum rules apply.
 
Going to kick of the tread, as in my opinion if GF handle Dexit poorly, it could be the biggest threat to the franchise in its history. Since the beginning of gen 1 we have been encouraged to not only "catch them all" but also to build bonds with the pokemon we raise. I have fond memories of my adament charizard back in leafgreen that got me through the game, and I was able to maximise its potential once mega evolutions came about in gen 6.

This ability to keep using and modifying your favourites has been part of what has kept me and many others buying the next game for the last 2 decades. I have been thinking about Dexit for the last few months and come up with possible ways that it's impact could be reduced.

Firstly, make the national dex a paid for dlc, which will fund and justify GF to make models for each pokemon. While the number of pokemon, moves and items will constantly increase, so will hardware and the ability to store and process more data. Nowadays it is possible to modify game cartridges and increase their file size, so I don't buy the argument that we will run out of space to store all the pokemon. It's simply a issue of resources, which a paid for dlc will be able to solve.

Another solution is that pokemon home will allow for full battles with access to all items and moves. As this is a cloud based system data storage is less of an problem and can be paid for with annual subscription. The main problem with this is changing the moves for pokemon not represented in gen 8, so you would have to be careful when transferring from sun/moon.

The third option is the release of a new Pokemon Battle Resolution game, which allows for no limit battles with good graphics and animations. I can see this coming at some point regardless of how they handle Dexit, although it may be a issue when new core games are released and GF will have to decide whether to patch the game.

If GF do none of the above and we can't use all our pokemon for many years then I can see this damaging the franchise in the long term. Little kids probably won't care about Dexit, it's adults who have invested years into the franchise that are the most likely to stop buying future games.

One silver lining of Dexit is that Pokemon Showdown will soon be busier than ever. Until pokemon home is released Smogon will be the only place where you can create any team you desire.
 
Could you still transfer Pokemon? Like, would it still matter if there isn’t a national dex? Sure you can’t “register the Pokémon in the dex”, you could still have it, right? There are also Pokémon that are only found in certain regions too, like Drilburr and Excadrill, so would transferring these work?
 

Codraroll

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Could you still transfer Pokemon? Like, would it still matter if there isn’t a national dex? Sure you can’t “register the Pokémon in the dex”, you could still have it, right? There are also Pokémon that are only found in certain regions too, like Drilburr and Excadrill, so would transferring these work?
Nope. The game wouldn't even recognize them if you hacked them in. From what we know, the games treat these Pokémon as if they were never even created.
 
Firstly, make the national dex a paid for dlc, which will fund and justify GF to make models for each pokemon. While the number of pokemon, moves and items will constantly increase, so will hardware and the ability to store and process more data. Nowadays it is possible to modify game cartridges and increase their file size, so I don't buy the argument that we will run out of space to store all the pokemon. It's simply a issue of resources, which a paid for dlc will be able to solve.
Here's the thing. It isn't a resources problem. The models in SM are future proof. That means GF doesn't need to or is making new models.

As thoroughly proven, GF is reusing everything they can from SM. Hop even got one of Hau's animations.

Dexit was handled extremely poorly, and worst, have little to no results to show for it. Such drastic and controversial measures *must* bring rewards to not turn into a complete failure. Jury is still out since the full game isn't out yet. What will be the final verdict?

Find out, next Dragon Ball Z-Move!!!
 
The two main things that bum me out about Dexit:

1) lack of connectivity not just between generations, but within the same generation as well. Shield can't battle or trade back and forth with Ultra Shield if that version of the game has a different regional dex. Basically upgrade or you're out. I've been skipping one game per generation since XY so that's annoying.

2) we're going to go through this every. fucking. reveal season from now on. Making lists of pokemon confirmed to be in the game. Complaining that this game has only 430 pokemon available, when the last one had 450!! Finding out that Charizard/Pikachu/Lucario make it in every gen at the expense of the popular shitmon of the month. (my faves are Kecleon and Torkoal. I'm so screwed lol) Finding a new bloody tree to mock.

Add to this the fact that GameFreak have outright said that cutting pokemon was a necessity in order to focus on polishing the rest of the game, which leads to greater scrutiny from the fanbase. I'm convinced that otherwise literally no one would have cared about that stupid tree, the reused animations, the Gigamax gimmick replacing Megas... The reaction would have been "lol classic Gamefreak. Well, we knew not to expect BOTW-tier graphics anyway!" Instead it's all been "they cut half the dex, and for what?"
 
One thing I read on the topic of speculation cycles: look at Smash Bros speculation. Arguments about deservedness are everywhere, and any sort of 'consolation prize' being just as bad, if not worse, than simple abscence in the minds of the fans because its seen to lock them out of appearing in smaller updates. The difference is, nearly everybody knows that getting everything in Smash is plain impossible. Quite possibly the worst part of the game and its community is there from necessity. Pokemon doesn't have that, at least not convincingly. It was given the choice of what to take from other series, and chose an abject downside.
 
Here's the thing. It isn't a resources problem. The models in SM are future proof. That means GF doesn't need to or is making new models.

As thoroughly proven, GF is reusing everything they can from SM. Hop even got one of Hau's animations.

Dexit was handled extremely poorly, and worst, have little to no results to show for it. Such drastic and controversial measures *must* bring rewards to not turn into a complete failure. Jury is still out since the full game isn't out yet. What will be the final verdict?
I did find a thoroughly convincing Reddit post from an actual developer several months back stating that while the models are reused, it's the textures that actually require an unexpectedly large amount of work. Basically, the development of the 3D models far predates their main series introduction in XY (2013), first debuting in PokePark Wii (2009). So they certainly did not make 721 models from scratch in one generation. Meanwhile, even though Let's Go reuses identical models for everyone except the Partners and the Meltan line, the textures are all brand new. All the SwSh footage we've seen so far also demonstrates that it has brand new textures compared to both Let's Go and USUM. So now it's fully reasonable that they don't have the time to redo 809 textures from scratch in one generation. (Whether a texture counts as part of a model or separate from the model is something that even different developers will probably disagree on.)

Of course, the following counterarguments still hold:
  • Why is the next Gen 8 game already confirmed to not have all the Pokemon? If they can make 721 textures from scratch in 3 years, why can't they make ~900 textures from scratch in 4-5 years?
  • Worse, why are they already planning to delete SwSh's already-finished textures from future games?
 
I did find a thoroughly convincing Reddit post from an actual developer several months back stating that while the models are reused, it's the textures that actually require an unexpectedly large amount of work. Basically, the development of the 3D models far predates their main series introduction in XY (2013), first debuting in PokePark Wii (2009). So they certainly did not make 721 models from scratch in one generation. Meanwhile, even though Let's Go reuses identical models for everyone except the Partners and the Meltan line, the textures are all brand new. All the SwSh footage we've seen so far also demonstrates that it has brand new textures compared to both Let's Go and USUM. So now it's fully reasonable that they don't have the time to redo 809 textures from scratch in one generation. (Whether a texture counts as part of a model or separate from the model is something that even different developers will probably disagree on.)

Of course, the following counterarguments still hold:
  • Why is the next Gen 8 game already confirmed to not have all the Pokemon? If they can make 721 textures from scratch in 3 years, why can't they make ~900 textures from scratch in 4-5 years?
  • Worse, why are they already planning to delete SwSh's already-finished textures from future games?
The counterarguments are what really send the arguments down the drain. Dexit is a policy that will be applied to all games from now on.

I'll twist the knife a bit though. GF has a problem with textures, all right.
*Points at the wild area*

To make things even worse, this is the kind of trivial problem that shouldn't have this kind of impact.

When the mons' models were made to be portable to the Switch, you'd expect the textures to have had the same treatment, but let's suppose they didn't.

Textures aren't really that hard to make. Make a separate team for that, hire a bunch of people for that if you must and have them update the textures for the old mons so there's no leaking risk.

If that really was the problem, then we got another case of GF being woefully incompetent.
 
The counterarguments are what really send the arguments down the drain. Dexit is a policy that will be applied to all games from now on.

I'll twist the knife a bit though. GF has a problem with textures, all right.
*Points at the wild area*

To make things even worse, this is the kind of trivial problem that shouldn't have this kind of impact.

When the mons' models were made to be portable to the Switch, you'd expect the textures to have had the same treatment, but let's suppose they didn't.

Textures aren't really that hard to make. Make a separate team for that, hire a bunch of people for that if you must and have them update the textures for the old mons so there's no leaking risk.

If that really was the problem, then we got another case of GF being woefully incompetent.
This whole last bit reeks of a lack of understanding how textures work, and with the amount of interviews going around im surprised you missed the part where they doubled the core staff and are getting hundreds of outside help on top of that JUST for this game. Textures from the 3ds were just not possible to be ported over to the switch. Everyone in let's go got a fresh coat of paint for that reason.

And a nother thing that has been bothering me: people have been saying for years now that Pokemon rarely improves or changes up the formula. There were features and gameplay features lost because they tried their best to carry their entire legacy per game, and that legacy grows and grows until its just not plausible to justify it.

Lets point to another game....smash ultimate. The big EVERYONE IS HERE game. The cost of including everyone resulted in not a ton of brand spanking new stuff to be left in. Tropies and all their wonderful descriptions gave way to stickers. The story mode is tragic compared to the subspace emmissary, and the amount of brand new stages is very small. What pokemon is trying to do is make better games all sround, and that has to come at a cost.
 

Codraroll

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When the mons' models were made to be portable to the Switch, you'd expect the textures to have had the same treatment, but let's suppose they didn't.

Textures aren't really that hard to make. Make a separate team for that, hire a bunch of people for that if you must and have them update the textures for the old mons so there's no leaking risk.

If that really was the problem, then we got another case of GF being woefully incompetent.
It's not just the textures in themselves, but also the shaders. Those are necessarily tied to the graphics engine of the game, so they would have to be updated every time the game goes through engine changes.
 
This whole last bit reeks of a lack of understanding how textures work, and with the amount of interviews going around im surprised you missed the part where they doubled the core staff and are getting hundreds of outside help on top of that JUST for this game. Textures from the 3ds were just not possible to be ported over to the switch. Everyone in let's go got a fresh coat of paint for that reason.

And a nother thing that has been bothering me: people have been saying for years now that Pokemon rarely improves or changes up the formula. There were features and gameplay features lost because they tried their best to carry their entire legacy per game, and that legacy grows and grows until its just not plausible to justify it.

Lets point to another game....smash ultimate. The big EVERYONE IS HERE game. The cost of including everyone resulted in not a ton of brand spanking new stuff to be left in. Tropies and all their wonderful descriptions gave way to stickers. The story mode is tragic compared to the subspace emmissary, and the amount of brand new stages is very small. What pokemon is trying to do is make better games all sround, and that has to come at a cost.
I didn't overlook that interview. Cod did raise a good point about the shaders that I overlooked though.

However, I also don't believe that we got a good deal, for now.
So far, we've yet to see that big leap that justifies Dexit.

They could either fit everyone in, or cut mons to improve the game overall. When the cut was announced, everything got put under the microscope.

I'm really hoping to be wrong on this, but this game isn't a revolution, it's a factory of sadness.
 
I'd just like to point out that any pokemon that doesn't make it to Galar and maybe Sinnoh assuming it is remade, will most likely not make it to the Switch period
so have fun getting your pokemon to a system in which they won't be used anywhere and then transport them again to another one 2 years later in which you might use them, no promises though

and if you don't have a Switch have fun paying for all of this with no guaranties that you'll be ever able to use one specific pokemon again in that system I mean, assuming that somehow Home is free even though announcing a free service in an investors report makes no sense

and if Home is a paid service have fun paying for something which might do literally nothing during its whole life


At this point, for me is DLC or die, I abandoned Star Wars for less (that damn Solo song), I can abandon Pokemon for this
 
Them hiring more staff is a reason why they should have more things to show, not fewer. Of course, I would have easily taken a 2d game with more content.

I can't speak for those that want major shakeups, but if I wanted a game that wasn't pokemon, I wouldn't be playing pokemon. Removing core gameplay aspects and calling it the same series is a good way to get an awful lot of criticism. Just look at Federation Force/ Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts/ recent Paper Mario games. Pokemon had pretty good spinoffs, why not work with them or make a new one for being really experimental?

Even ignoring my love of weird combinations, the current results of the cut do not seem aimed to provide a better game in general. An open world style is a subjective preference. Graphics and story are meh. Basically no postgame content has been shown. And many mons confirmed in do not appear to have good reasons for their presence. Take, for example, Butterfree. Its original purpose was to introduce the evolution mechanic by evolving at a very early level. Since it is reasonable to have several new mons in the early routes, this niche has been replaced over and over again, and has a good chance of being replaced again. From the standpoint of making a better game, it is no longer useful and would be thus an easy pick to remove. In terms of a competitive focus for the status-based booster archetype shared by several different butterfly mons, it would be better to start from the most balanced point so that the adjustments made can be smaller and produce less risk of overcompensating. Again, Butterfree is not the best choice here, and the adjustment should be given to e.g. Venomoth instead, with Butterfree being removed for space. Heck, one of the biggest resource sinks is something that has consistently failed to deliver results even with its personal system bloat. It is, of course, given more unique things instead of being removed. If legacy is a reason to keep Lapras in despite being frankly both mechanically and thematically boring, then it should also be a reason to keep e.g. Durant (One of the more interesting Hone Claws user and primary singles user of Entrainment), Stakataka (the main Trick Room mon outside of dedicated teams), or Megas.
 
It's not just the textures in themselves, but also the shaders. Those are necessarily tied to the graphics engine of the game, so they would have to be updated every time the game goes through engine changes.
See, I completely get this. I know nothing about game development, but I'm very ready to accept that they couldn't get the whole dex done in time within their schedule. Future-proof models don't mean anything — maybe they weren't as future-proof as they thought. Lots of problems could have come up. But why make it a policy going forward in all pokemon games? Surely by the second or third mainline pokemon game on the switch they could have the whole dex ready. Is there also a technical reason I'm not getting that makes this impossible?
 
I do not recall a single gen where there was a single non mythical pokemon made available during the gens entirity, and of those mythicals i can only think of like...az floette and arceus. I ca t aee atuff like camrupt or even delibird being absent for an entire gen, so we'll be fine.
 
Still confused on how people are declaring stuff like the story to be bad with 0 proof one way or the other outside of pokemon plots usually being subpar, same deal with postgame
The converse still applies. There is no evidence that the story and/or postgame will be good, and I can't blame people for extrapolating based on known patterns.

While my wirting on story may not have been precise (potentially due to me not caring as much about the direct story than about gameplay or worldbuilding), you will note that I said that nearly no postgame was shown, which is something you are also stating.
 

Karxrida

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Dexit might have been forgivable if GF had overhauled all the animations to be good or shook up the core of the series like how BotW did for Zelda. But we still have largely the same games again with the same shitty animations and nothing really exciting or new to look forward to. (And no the Wild Area doesn't count. It's looking like fake nonlinearity due to the beef gates.)

Also based on the leaks none of the previous starters except for the goddamn Kanto ones are in the game. Cause that will go over well.
 
Dexit might have been forgivable if GF had overhauled all the animations to be good or shook up the core of the series like how BotW did for Zelda. But we still have largely the same games again with the same shitty animations and nothing really exciting or new to look forward to. (And no the Wild Area doesn't count. It's looking like fake nonlinearity due to the beef gates.)

Also based on the leaks none of the previous starters except for the goddamn Kanto ones are in the game. Cause that will go over well.
That "leak" is filled with inconsistencies and shouldnt be a ground for any basis, while the animations for attacks are the prettiest we've seen from a main series title. We cant start cherry picking animations after the ganes come out.
 

Codraroll

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Dexit might have been forgivable if GF had overhauled all the animations to be good or shook up the core of the series like how BotW did for Zelda.
I think Dexit might have been forgivable if we had got anything substantial in return for it, something it was clear they couldn't have done while keeping all the Pokémon. A change of direction that warranted an overhaul of the roster. But as you said, the games continue down the same track as they always have. They chucked out half the baggage of seven generations of Pokémon, so they had room to continue doing what made the baggage pile up in the first place.

Instead, it seems like the only real reason given for Dexit is "we wanted the games to be easier for us to make". The change was done for the convenience of the developers, not because it would result in a better game. As somebody put it in the first SwSh thread, they're explaining why the choice makes it easier for them, but the consumer is left with an inferior product. The reaction I have is "Well, don't be lazy and fix it then!"

Moreover, they come across as oblivious as to why the fans would react that way. It was all presented so matter-of-factly, as if the change was inconsequential to the games at large, and they didn't seem to expect the backlash at all. Or address it in a meaningful way. We still haven't seen anything that would justify Dexit, and it makes it appear as if there isn't anything. Just developer convenience. And we fans are expected to be loyal and take it. That attitude really pisses me off more than the act itself. I could see valid reasons that would necessitate Dexit, it's not hard to imagine a BotW-level overhaul of the Pokémon formula in which a full roster of Pokémon would clearly be impossible. But culling the dex, doing nothing with it, not justifying it, nor addressing the concerns of the fans? That really makes me disappointed in The Pokémon Company.

I thought they were better than this. What a way to have that illusion shattered; not through eventually realizing that they can't meet our high expectations, but through seeing that they don't even bother to try.
 
When the mons' models were made to be portable to the Switch, you'd expect the textures to have had the same treatment
Apologies for the excess negativity but I thought it was obvious that this is impossible. 2D images can't be futureproofed in such a way that they work at both low and high resolutions - that's about equivalent to saying that (in Gen 3) you can make the party minisprites by just shrinking down the regular battle sprites. It just doesn't work and there's no way around having to make each sprite at the battle resolution and then making each sprite all over again at the party resolution. (But textures are going to be a lot bigger than minisprites, with the different shaders and co. that Codraroll mentioned on top.)

But why make it a policy going forward in all pokemon games? Surely by the second or third mainline pokemon game on the switch they could have the whole dex ready. Is there also a technical reason I'm not getting that makes this impossible?
Not really:
  • Perhaps GF can't patch SwSh because no one on their team has ever learned how to push such a big patch before and no one can be trained in time (<1 year).
  • It's well known by now that GF starts developing a new generation right when the first games of the current generation are done. GF has already explicitly confirmed via(?) interview that development on Gen 9 has already started.
  • If Gen 9 and/or DP remakes use a different graphics engine than SwSh for who-knows-what reason, they'll "have to" remake all the textures all over again.
  • Now that the general public has "warmed up" to the idea of not every Pokemon making it, GF can now get away with continuing to do so even when the technical reasons are a lot harder to justify.
 
I think Dexit might have been forgivable if we had got anything substantial in return for it, something it was clear they couldn't have done while keeping all the Pokémon. A change of direction that warranted an overhaul of the roster. But as you said, the games continue down the same track as they always have. They chucked out half the baggage of seven generations of Pokémon, so they had room to continue doing what made the baggage pile up in the first place.

Instead, it seems like the only real reason given for Dexit is "we wanted the games to be easier for us to make". The change was done for the convenience of the developers, not because it would result in a better game. As somebody put it in the first SwSh thread, they're explaining why the choice makes it easier for them, but the consumer is left with an inferior product. The reaction I have is "Well, don't be lazy and fix it then!"

Moreover, they come across as oblivious as to why the fans would react that way. It was all presented so matter-of-factly, as if the change was inconsequential to the games at large, and they didn't seem to expect the backlash at all. Or address it in a meaningful way. We still haven't seen anything that would justify Dexit, and it makes it appear as if there isn't anything. Just developer convenience. And we fans are expected to be loyal and take it. That attitude really pisses me off more than the act itself. I could see valid reasons that would necessitate Dexit, it's not hard to imagine a BotW-level overhaul of the Pokémon formula in which a full roster of Pokémon would clearly be impossible. But culling the dex, doing nothing with it, not justifying it, nor addressing the concerns of the fans? That really makes me disappointed in The Pokémon Company.

I thought they were better than this. What a way to have that illusion shattered; not through eventually realizing that they can't meet our high expectations, but through seeing that they don't even bother to try.
I dont expect there is going to be any amount of features that will satisfy dexit to some people, but a lot of what you've said directly contradicts what they have stated multiple times. And considering how tight lipped theyve been on ANY of their features, I understand the bitterness that comes from not knowing what they have in store. But I personally dont think anything short of a direct list of features that shows what was added in thenplace of the pokemon will placate people, and people will STILL be mad.

If they were truly so lazy, wouldnt they have been able to donit with the regular team, instead of doubling the core and having 800+ more workers on top of that? If this is the lazy route, what do you expect the hard route to be? Maybe 1.5k workers? And we just...add more people whenever a new gen comes along until we have all 1k mons on a single game?

Pretty much every person who has knowledge in the game industry I've seen has support of dexit, and have been surprised it hasnt happen before now. I think im gonna put my faith in them instead of a few college students, youtubers and forum members. We got less than 2 weeks, and im sure the game will be disected to its very code for every piece of info, we'll see whetger or not they were slacking or not.
 
Apologies for the excess negativity but I thought it was obvious that this is impossible. 2D images can't be futureproofed in such a way that they work at both low and high resolutions
Sorry, I wasn't that clear. I meant that when they made the models future proof, they should've done the high-res textures with them too. The lower-res ones for the 3DS needed to be done separately, I understand that.

t's well known by now that GF starts developing a new generation right when the first games of the current generation are done. GF has already explicitly confirmed via(?) interview that development on Gen 9 has already started.
This is infuriating. No, seriously, I don't think people realize how thoroughly stupid this is.

Instead of properly exploring a generation and making deep games that stand on their own, GF is rushing everything to get a new gen out in 3 years. Again.

A new gen brings a new region that will need to be built from scratch, a ton of gimmicks because Gimmick Freak can print money off them and most importantly, new Pokémon.

Apparently, we've already reached critical mass, to the point Dexit had to be implemented. One would expect GF to y'know, extend the generation so they don't really need to add more mons soon. Maybe continue with the Remake tendencies and actually give them the polish they deserve instead of whatever was ORAS. They'd keep lining their pockets with that sweet, sweet money, but nooooo. Gimmicks need to be put out.

I dont expect there is going to be any amount of features that will satisfy dexit to some people, but a lot of what you've said directly contradicts what they have stated multiple times. And considering how tight lipped theyve been on ANY of their features, I understand the bitterness that comes from not knowing what they have in store. But I personally dont think anything short of a direct list of features that shows what was added in thenplace of the pokemon will placate people, and people will STILL be mad.

If they were truly so lazy, wouldnt they have been able to donit with the regular team, instead of doubling the core and having 800+ more workers on top of that? If this is the lazy route, what do you expect the hard route to be? Maybe 1.5k workers? And we just...add more people whenever a new gen comes along until we have all 1k mons on a single game?

Pretty much every person who has knowledge in the game industry I've seen has support of dexit, and have been surprised it hasnt happen before now. I think im gonna put my faith in them instead of a few college students, youtubers and forum members. We got less than 2 weeks, and im sure the game will be disected to its very code for every piece of info, we'll see whetger or not they were slacking or not.
No offense, but you sound really condescending on that last paragraph.

As for Dexit, deep down, everyone knew it would need to happen at some point. Here's the thing though. They blew it. There are thousands of people, if not even more, complaining about it and with good reason.

USUM had the full national dex. With all the gimmicks in the world. In an underpowered portable system. Despite all its flaws, it didn't need Dexit.

Now, the Switch is a much more powerful console no matter how you slice it. The inevitable, and I really mean it, 1K mons is just not reasonable, happened. Dexit is coming.

The initial excuse was actually good, despite the awful delivery. They claimed to be polishing the game and making it a better and more fluid experience.

Then we saw tons of reused animations. Don't get me wrong, this is good and industry standard. Not when you're claiming to having made new ones though. People ain't that stupid.

Ok, but maybe they were working on the graphics? Tree.jpg. The mere fact that there's an image placing OoT Link in the Wild Area and it isn't jarring is more insulting than anything I could say.

The list goes on for a while, and people have dissected them better than I could, I can link some vids if you're interested.

So yeah, game devs overall agree that Dexit was inevitable, but I've also seen some claim that so far, GF didn't really show anything that would indicate a major leap in the series or even features to justify the cut. In fact, I saw game devs laughing at those textures.

TL;DR - GF working on Gen 9 already because they're dumb as a sack of bricks and as greedy as a pirate.
Dexit still shows no results, just like GF left us hanging on the Battle Frontier in ORAS.
 

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