Dexit discussion thread

You know its kind of hard to see it but at the beginning of the trailers there's some text that says "game footage not final" that a ton of people missed out on when they started scoping out stuff. Every trailer since then has added touches, even to the same locations, as we saw in august, so j dont know why those are still floating around.

Also, dexit was supposed to happen in gen 7. The devs already mentioned that they were heavily considering it with the 3ds line up, but decided against it. And thus, more gameplay features had to be cut. We already heard reports that gen 7 almost ran out of budget and even stuff like trials were a near last minute addition. As in, we almost had a gen without one of the most interesting aspects of it even making it in the game.

I think i asked this before, but ill ask again: how many quality of life changes would it take to justify dexit? From the first 90 minute previews we git we already saw great strides, but how much needs to change to justify....lets say the ballpark of 200 or so mons? I honestly want to know.

Note: battle system revamp is something they actually tried, but decided against. They were trying to either cut moves down to 3 per pokemon or up to 5, but settled back to 4 because its the most balanced
 
I think i asked this before, but ill ask again: how many quality of life changes would it take to justify dexit? From the first 90 minute previews we git we already saw great strides,
Oh really? Please elaborate. I really don't want this game to be a dumpster fire, but I ain't caping for it if it is.

As for changes that at least I would suggest? Battle Frontier. At the very least.

Some graphical work would be expected too. A fix for the atrocious "flying" animations that plague the games since that failed experiment with Sky Battles. Some actual effort on adjusting mons that fell completely out of relevance like a couple re-types and actual adjusting on base stats (Including nerfs, yes.). Perhaps tuning some abilities as well. How come Justified doesn't give mons a Dark immunity like Motor Drive gives an Electric one?

Truth be told, what bothers me the most is that I see lack of effort. I can disagree with a lot of changes GF made along the years, like the addition of Fairy-type, but I can recognize effort in those and respect them regardless of the results.

SnS shows no effort whatsoever for a lot of things. It's insulting.


You know its kind of hard to see it but at the beginning of the trailers there's some text that says "game footage not final"

Ya really hate to see it.
 
Isnt that the guy who copared boycotting aword and shield to actual hong kong protests against a super oppressive government? Yeah I'll pass from super hyperbolic opions thanks
 
Isnt that the guy who copared boycotting aword and shield to actual hong kong protests against a super oppressive government? Yeah I'll pass from super hyperbolic opions thanks
No idea. Never even heard about that lmao.

Regardless, you can watch a vid and get your own opinion out of it. Come on, we all have critical thinking abilities, we don't need to take things as gospel just because they're on the internet. lol.
 
On to the main points though, what you are asking isnt much, ill admit, but most is atuff they we literally cant see pre release or datamine. We can scratch the flying models off (hi xatu) and animations is a bit vague...we already saw rhe infamous double kick but i think i was the onlybone hyped about earth power or trick room upgrades.

For me, I too want some fresh stuff added to the game. Lets Go meta showed that a restricted meta can shine a spotlight on mons that lost their lyster, like vileplume or poliwrath. I want that kind of treat ment hear in SnS.

A battle frontier is nice and i suppose there is something planned in post game, but of course they arent gonna show that pre release either.

I honestly think as long as they continue to make competitive wasier to get into (which they have), give us interesting things to do (max raid battles im really looking forward to), and really shake some stuff up, i can live with that.

...on that note, where is HOME? I think its supposed to launch in February but we havent heard much about it. We know its not a bamk clone and you can play with and trade with it, but i will say not giving us more details on it has been a huge sticking point in this pre release season...
 
On to the main points though, what you are asking isnt much, ill admit, but most is atuff they we literally cant see pre release or datamine. We can scratch the flying models off (hi xatu) and animations is a bit vague...we already saw rhe infamous double kick but i think i was the onlybone hyped about earth power or trick room upgrades.

For me, I too want some fresh stuff added to the game. Lets Go meta showed that a restricted meta can shine a spotlight on mons that lost their lyster, like vileplume or poliwrath. I want that kind of treat ment hear in SnS.
Animations, so far, are lifted straight from the 3DS. The move effects look crisp for the most part tho. (Sorry, Stadium 2 Shadow Ball is *still* the undisputed best and it's not even close.)
Pretty much no contest on the effects. I think this was the biggest improvement on the series overall. The effects keep getting better each game. (Well. Kinda. RIP Gen IV Dark Pulse.)

Edit: Legit balance or even proper adjustments are a tall order, I'm aware of that. But it's the only way to help forgotten mons. And to nerf the ones with inflated stats.

Also, forgot the biggest things. Old Exp. Share (Not necessarily overriding the new one, just a way to help the weaker mons catch up.) and Challenge Mode. PLEASE.

A battle frontier is nice and i suppose there is something planned in post game, but of course they arent gonna show that pre release either.
They can at least allude to it.
"We have some big things prepared for the player after the main game, but we can't quite show them yet."
Damage control successful.
 
Last edited:

Codraroll

Cod Mod
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I dont expect there is going to be any amount of features that will satisfy dexit to some people, but a lot of what you've said directly contradicts what they have stated multiple times. And considering how tight lipped theyve been on ANY of their features, I understand the bitterness that comes from not knowing what they have in store. But I personally dont think anything short of a direct list of features that shows what was added in thenplace of the pokemon will placate people, and people will STILL be mad.
Even if you turn out to be right, the marketing and presentation of Dexit would still be a classic example of doing things horribly wrong. One may consider Dexit a sacrifice but exactly what is being achieved in return is still unclear. "Why does Dexit make the game better?" is still not a question that has been answered in any proper way, and if there turns out to be such a proper answer, Game Freak should have given it immediately after announcing the Dexit policy. Continuing to be tight-lipped about it as the complaints came pouring in was even dumber. If Dexit had allowed them to do something fantastic with the remaining Pokémon, this something should have been shown immediately, to reduce concerns. Instead, concerns were allowed to grow and spread without addressing from the developers, apart from half-baked excuses.

If they were truly so lazy, wouldnt they have been able to donit with the regular team, instead of doubling the core and having 800+ more workers on top of that? If this is the lazy route, what do you expect the hard route to be? Maybe 1.5k workers? And we just...add more people whenever a new gen comes along until we have all 1k mons on a single game?
To be honest, this sort of stuff is not relevant to the consumer side. They did manage to pull together a full dex for the 3DS games, so they have demonstrated their capability to do so by example. In the transition from Gen VI to VII, they retained the catalogue of existing Pokémon while adding roughly a hundred more. It wouldn't be that much of a leap to do that same thing over again. Sure, it would cost money, but it's not completely unfeasible.

And SwSh is a title they're charging AAA money for and expecting AAA sales for, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to them that an AAA level of investment would be needed to make these games. 1.5k workers would be around half the number of people who worked on Red Dead Redemption 2, a game that sold about as well as the Gen VII Pokémon games (SMUSUM) combined and whose asking price is about the same as that of SwSh. For the amount of money the Pokémon games generate, they have a remarkably small budget and short development time compared to other AAA video games.

Pretty much every person who has knowledge in the game industry I've seen has support of dexit, and have been surprised it hasnt happen before now.
I think it was inevitable that Dexit would happen some day, with the strategy embraced by the games until now. The accretion of content has been unsustainable, and an overhaul would have been needed one day. But the way it is approached is not so much an overhaul as a cop-out: Cut out half the Pokémon, then continue business as usual. That's the thing that makes fans so mad. Not that Dexit happened, but that it appears to have been done primarily to make it easier for the creators to work in the same veins as they have always used to.

I think i asked this before, but ill ask again: how many quality of life changes would it take to justify dexit?
The changes would have to go beyond quality of life, that's the entire point. SwSh come across as an iteration of the Gen VII games, with marginal upgrades here and there but overall being mostly built on the same stuff as always. The game behaves the same as before both in the overworld and in battle. Apart from the stuff newly introduced in Gen VII, animations, models, and all Pokémon properties (stats, types, abilities, evolution methods/levels), appear to have been reused. The battle mechanics are still built on the framework from Gen IV. Items and the way they work have been copied over. Interaction with the environment seems to be on the same level (press A, get a textbox). The entire gameplay core of the game hasn't been changed much since Gen I, and it wouldn't surprise me if some of the code has been lifted piece by piece from game to game at least since the GBA era.

In essence, the games have been upscaled and made nicer, but ultimately there haven't been any fundamental changes. A lot of the core stuff kept from earlier generations appears to have been copied and pasted, the same type of design iterations as they have done in the past. They didn't shake up the way the Pokémon games were made, but they cut out half the content nonetheless. What are we given in return?

All in all, it still remains to be seen why consumers should view Dexit as anything but a straight downgrade. Significant improvements on the remaining stock of past-gen Pokémon have not been spotted so far. The way the game is fundamentally put together has not been changed. Nothing really warrants Dexit, apart from the desire of the creators to not increase the budget or the games' development time. Essentially, we're shown games that behave exactly like the previous entries in the series, but only contain half the Pokémon. That is a downgrade, no matter how you spin it. That can't be compensated for with simple QoL changes.

how much needs to change to justify....lets say the ballpark of 200 or so mons? I honestly want to know.
Cutting out three quarters of the Pokémon or more is the sort of thing you do if you want to build the entire game from scratch, making all the previous content completely incopatible with the new system. The games would have to be so fundamentally different, and each included Pokémon so rich in behaviour, that anyone could see how unfeasible it would be to include more than that. We're talking overworld behaviour for every Pokémon like in Pokémon Snap, proper melee animations for contact moves in battle, a complete overhaul of all battle mechanics, that sort of thing. Heck, maybe a complete overhaul of the entire gameplay design. What I'm trying to say is, it would take a lot for me to see it as anything but a cheap cash grab like LGPE.


TL;DR - as long as the games fundamentally remain so similar to each other, because so little fundamentally changes from game to game and a lot of the content is copied directly over (and maybe adapted on the technical side so it can work like supposed to, but for the consumer it appears indistinguishable from what it used to be), Dexit comes across as a cop-out move. Iterative and incremental design has been the norm for more than 20 years, and it still evidently is the norm, so it just seems cheap that they cut out so much content without doing anything to compensate for it.
 
I don't really understand this talk of QoL changes. The things that would make Dexit palatable to me would be much bigger changes: a full scale open world, for example, or a complete overhaul of the battling system (maybe moving away from turn-based combat?) Not stuff like "press A to skip cutscene" or overworld access to the PC. These types of marginal upgrades happen in every new pokemon games regardless, and what's more, there's no guarantee that they'll stick around. Remember that "always run" button on the touchscreen in HGSS? Yeah...

And I understand the principle of waiting to see the final product before we complain about additional features, I really do. But the thing is, Gamefreak's marketing strategy has, I think, burned us too many times to justify not being very hopeful. The promised "end-game content" in LGPE ended up being the joke that were master trainers. The ULTRA CHANGES... let's not even talk about that. It seems clear to me that the features they wanted to promote as the main selling points of these games were Gigamax and the wild area. Therefore I don't expect much more. Hopefully we'll at least get a battle tower/tree clone.
 
(removed)

Apparently there is only 400 mons in the game... do we get our pitchforks out already orr
As I said, is DLC or death at this point
maybe if Pokemon Home is an actual Pokemon game but with only menu sprites, and even then, no reason to buy S&S
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think Dexit is an inevitability, and I welcome it. Sort of. If they were going to limit the older roster of Pokemon, I think they should have taken the time to work on updating and refreshing all the wonderful shitmons and so forth that have made it. Beyond just movepool changes. Editing abilities, evolution level/method, stat boosts/modifications, even some radical shifts like re-typing certain Pokemon*, etc. It's like GameFreak is split between NEW CONTENT and preserving some weird legacy mechanics that nobody really is that connected to anyway. Does Ampharos have to have Static/Plus as its abilities forever? Can all Pokemon finally get a third ability? Can powercreep be addressed by boosting/lowering the extremes as needed?

Dexit is a radical approach to Pokemon that requires GameFreak to unshackle themselves from "legacy". It would make interacting with all our old faves something nostalgic yet fresh/new in a way.

*okay maybe this is just my stan dream because I want Ampharos to be rightfully made an Electric/Dragon type now that Megas are kaput. Also Static and Plus are both mediocre/shitty.
 
I agree that a radical approach to unshackle themselves would likely require Dexit.

However, the current problem appears to be that Dexit is occuring and major shifts are not. Only minor shifts are. In other words, Dexit is not requiring GF to reinvent themselves.
 
Dexit is shit and basically inexcusable. Every technical post I have seen in defense of it pretty much boils down to Gamefreak not investing enough resources into transferring Pokemon to the Switch.

No I'm not calling Gamefreak lazy nor do I think spamming #nationaldex fucking everywhere will help but it's unreasonable that the most profitable franchise ever should have to resort to this.
 
Dexit is shit and basically inexcusable. Every technical post I have seen in defense of it pretty much boils down to Gamefreak not investing enough resources into transferring Pokemon to the Switch.

No I'm not calling Gamefreak lazy nor do I think spamming #nationaldex fucking everywhere will help but it's unreasonable that the most profitable franchise ever should have to resort to this.
Just to be clear, I completely agree. Dexit absolutely should not have happened. However, that does not excuse the behavior of people who protest for months about entertainment, or a specific person who thinks they're entitled to a product they haven't purchased.
 
My 2 biggest issues with Dexit is that it:
1. Takes away a post-game challenge of catching all the Pokemon
2. I can't wonder trade or trade in 6 low-level different Pokemon to try to beat the game with as a different challenge. I can still do that but I know my options will be smaller by at least probably a third.

I forgave Gen 6 for being almost Gen 2 Kanto levels of empty because of the initial transition from sprites to models. Hell, I love ORAS (no Battle Frontier was a bit of a kick in the balls). Gen 7 left a real bitter taste in my mouth and I can't even summon the joy to try and play USUM. I always get excited for a new generation but every piece of new news hits me with the asterisk of *But all the Pokemon won't be there.

I don't know what there needs to be for me to go "yep this was worth losing the national dex for" or if there is even something for me, personally. I'd happily wait another 2 years for ShSw if it meant we got a complete game with all the Pokemon in it.

Maybe I'll change my mind if Pokemon Home is actually a Stadium type game with all the Pokemon, different battle modes and mini games? Who knows
 

earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Community Contributor
1. Takes away a post-game challenge of catching all the Pokemon
I never understood this point- given you’ve previously “caught them all” (transferred up and caught the new stuff) there’s not a lot of actual gameplay content there unless you’re trying to trade to get the whole dex
 
I never understood this point- given you’ve previously “caught them all” (transferred up and caught the new stuff) there’s not a lot of actual gameplay content there unless you’re trying to trade to get the whole dex
Gen 6 was the first time I did it actually because I didn't need to transfer which I meant I could avoid Gen 5 like the plague that it is. But it's not just a thing for me. It's a thing for players who haven't done it or new players. It is still post game content that has been cut
 

earl

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Community Contributor
Gen 6 was the first time I did it actually because I didn't need to transfer which I meant I could avoid Gen 5 like the plague that it is. But it's not just a thing for me. It's a thing for players who haven't done it or new players. It is still post game content that has been cut
Isn’t it mostly just aggressive GTS trading though? I can kind of see the appeal but it was never really possible to catch them all (in the conventional sense). More so saw the appeal in porting your collection over
 
Isn’t it mostly just aggressive GTS trading though? I can kind of see the appeal but it was never really possible to catch them all (in the conventional sense). More so saw the appeal in porting your collection over
I did no GTS trading for mine. I caught, evolved and hatched everything I could in AlphaSapphire, then did the same for all the exclusives in XY and OmegaRuby. If SwSh and DP remakes could offer me the same thing I would probably do that again in whichever version I personally enjoyed the most. Unfortunately, nothing in the official releases has made me want to get these games at the moment
 

Codraroll

Cod Mod
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
I just deleted a whole bunch of posts that were both off topic and strayed far outside the accepted limits of civility.

This thread is for discussing Dexit itself, not for discussing fan reactions to it, the behaviour of the community or anything like that. Tell us your reactions to the thing itself, not your reaction to other people's reactions. Don't be upset about other people being upset, because that'll upset more people and everything becomes too meta to be worth reading.

We good? Good. Move on.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top