Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion (Usage stats in post #944)

[Salt Kitchen]

Testing out a set in the actual game, has worked well for me so far

Toxtricity @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Sludge Wave
- Boomburst

I was playing through the game, and the battle tower and my team was lacking a good special attacker. Toxtricity has a high base SpAtk stat, but a low speed stat. This is why I chose to run him scarfed. Overdrive and Sludge Wave are moves to make use of his typing for STAB, and Overdrive and Boomburst are powered up due to its ability. I couldn’t decide on a third move, so I decided to use Volt Switch for some chip damage that you can switch him into then out. This set struggles with some ground types, notably Excadrill and Copperajah. I recommend running Rotom-W with Toxtricity to safely switch into expected ground moves and cripple them with Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Soda]

I think the thing about a second ladder is that even if the "unofficial" ladder is the Dynamax tier, that will still get a lot of traction because it is the one with this generation's "gimmick" and the one that's closest to cart. I'm thinking that will attract players just on that basis alone. Unless certain threats get banned I'm sure the Dmax tier will stay a Ditto/Gyara/Lucha fest, so I can totally understand people wanting to ban Dmax. It's very centralizing. I do think once they leave they'll just be replaced by the next batch of powerful Dmax sweepers, but I don't think they'll be as hard to stop. People would be using them now if they were.

Again, I'd enjoy playing both with and without Dmax and seeing how the meta evolves both ways. What I'm saying is...I like it both ways.

 

[Deleted User 464209]

Hello.

CATACLYSMIC POWAH (Dracozolt) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Low Kick

Hitting Toxapex-stats neutrally:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Dracozolt Bolt Beak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex : 304-358 (100 - 117.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-G Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 195-231 (64.1 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Go forth and eradicate stall players

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I think the thing about a second ladder is that even if the "unofficial" ladder is the Dynamax tier, that will still get a lot of traction because it is the one with this generation's "gimmick" and the one that's closest to cart. I'm thinking that will attract players just on that basis alone. Unless certain threats get banned I'm sure the Dmax tier will stay a Ditto/Gyara/Lucha fest, so I can totally understand people wanting to ban Dmax. It's very centralizing. I do think once they leave they'll just be replaced by the next batch of powerful Dmax sweepers, but I don't think they'll be as hard to stop. People would be using them now if they were.

Again, I'd enjoy playing both with and without Dmax and seeing how the meta evolves both ways. What I'm saying is...I like it both ways.

I just wanna respond to you and everyone else that think that dynamax is somehow fine blah blah It's just the abusers - It's not remotely fine.

Dynamaxing heavily centers the game around 2-3 turns and is absolutely fucking random. defensively you have to just GUESS when the opponent is going to do it leaving you showing your ass when you get it wrong. Also having the answer to dynamax be dynamax the same turn should tell you everything you need to know. It also stacks severely and snowballs afterwards,making even prankster subbing not that viable of an option.
But lets talk about that shall we, having walls right now is pretty much just a fuck all bc they can die at any time from almost every mon the opposing team, and if u dynamax defensive ur stuck looking like an asshole with weak attacks and 3 protects, like a fucking loser.

Not only that, the sheer randomness of it can take out mons you need to win the game that usually arent in issue, for example. I bring in my mandibuzz at 75% of a +@ teapot, and this bit dynamaxes and z hyperbeams. and for free. theres nothing I could do there, this is turn 16 ad there are 4 mons left on both sides. just RANDOM AF. it makes it that you just autolose and only the attacking person knows. such a joke

 

[Empress Mobile]

I have to agree that Dynamax is proving more and more to be unmanageable. People pointing to just the abusers like Gyarados and Hawlucha as if there aren't plenty of viable abusers waiting on standby for these two to get banned - Togekiss, Barraskewda, Gengar, Tyranitar, etc. I think the fact that Ditto is seeing that much usage is a testament to how overwhelming the mechanic is.

 

[ausma]

As I'm labbing more and more, I'm kind of seeing more and more potential in Dynamax, and in this case that's not at all a good thing. I'm still in firm belief that Gigantamax is fine due to the fact you are able to telegraph when it will come out due to its limited distribution and the ability to prevent a takeover of stall, but I'm growing more unsure about Dynamax itself being fine. The big, fundamental problem is how any Pokemon is able to do it at any time of the battle and don't at all have to deviate from their intended sets to function at their fullest potential both with Dynamax active and without it active. Plus, there are the aforementioned points about how Gyarados and Lucha are holding back other potential devastating Dynamax sweepers, and that their bans will solve nothing, which I now concur with seeing how I've been able to replicate their success with other Pokemon.

I want to reiterate though that I think the biggest issue literally is the unpredictability of it and how much reward you can get by just popping it. It's essentially Megas and Z-moves on crack cocaine that you can't at all telegraph.

 

[Zneon]

Considering that Gigantamax is only available on a selected number of Pokemon, I think that it will be more managable, as the unpredictability factor of Dynamax is, in my opinion, the biggest problem of it and what leads to all the centralization and unhealthiness you see in the meta, but here's my somewhat "short" and unnecessary opinion on Dynamax.

So Dynamax, I feel are similar to Z-Moves, except you don't have to use a specific item to Dynamax and you can basically do it with any Pokemon, I think it's an unhealthy and overcentralizing mechanic that seems to get more out of hand with people experimenting with mons like Togekiss and Tyranitar as D-Max sweepers, it seems that Dynamax itself is the main problem, not the abusers, because banning the abusers isn't going to stop the main issue as there are always going to be more to take their place, the unpredictability factor and the fact that you need to telegraph which Pokemon is the Dynamax abuser is incredibly hard, because sometimes the Dynamax user isn't even a sweeper, it can be a powerful wallbreaker, and as soon as the opponent Dynamaxes, they usually always get an advantage because there is no drawback to using it and the metagame is basically HO spam where people rely on Dynamax to win games, which is generally hard to beat without a Ditto. Sometimes you don't even need to outplay your opponent, because Dynamax is so rewarding that it can put your opponent at a disadvantage, which is uncompetitive and just fundamentally changes how the game is played, in an extremely negative and uncompetitive way, so I am in favour of it to go.

 

[SquibbyJ]

The weirdest threat I've found is Onix. Why? Body Press. Impish Onix with max defense and eviolite has 690 defense.

252 Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Onix: 116-138 (42.3 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Here is an equivalent calc towards the same Onix above against Excadrill.

252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Dig vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 508-598 (140.3 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Even losing an item, Onix still has a winning advantage.

252+ Atk Slaking Dig vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 340-400 (93.9 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO\

Onix, admittedly, hard loses to fairy(esp. Hatterene), as for the rest of its viable moveset, it is stuck to Utility (Taunt, Dragon Tail, Bulldoze, Stealth Rock). The full defense investment though means that, even if you aren't running full HP, running Full Speed makes some would be counters into checks(Bulky Eldegloss) while still making mons like Coalossal and Gigalith still sometimes lose to you. Steelix may also be viable, I prefer fast Onix tbh, but definitely an interesting mon.

Notes on Onix though, Dragapult generally has trouble setting up on Onix(taunt and dragon tail are basically your two buttons for it), but Mixed Dragapult can severely damage Onix and potentially KO if it dynamaxes so you can't phase it. Dragon Darts generally does not beat Onix.

Steelix is probably better than Onix if you want to use your dynamax, since Steel Stab beefs up defense before letting Body Presses fly.
I dislike this because A) it telegraphs a dynamax and B) It still needs speed set up and 3 turns of not using your massive defense to destroy the team and C) Switching Onix out of bad matchups is comfy and easy to wear.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I'd just like to restate my disdain for the idea of banning Dynamaxing but preserving Gigantamaxing. I hate to be that guy, but let's face it, the only reason we are even considering this option is to preserve a subjective sense of "generational flavor" and "fun". The former is horseshit as there's already plenty that sets Sword and Shield OU from previous generations of OU: If the typical inter-generational expansions to the game (New Pokemon, move buffs, new items) plus what is essentially a soft reboot to the Pokedex itself aren't enough to distinguish it, then we might as well call Gen 6 ZU a clone of Gen 2 UU. And once again, while this statement may come off as elitist to some, keeping around a mechanic because it could be a fun or interesting addition to the metagame is not an argument when we're trying to determined if something is balanced or not.

I also dispute the claim that Gigantamaxing's workings solve the issue of Dynamax's overall unpredictability. If we went this route, I could totally see a situation similar to Megas in Let's Go arising where people stack multiple Gigantamax-capable Pokemon on their team to throw foes off. Remember, no items need to be sacrificed, and a fair amount of the Gigantamax mons (especially the ones for certain Galar originals) are perfectly fine additions to a team on their own, so it isn't like you'd have to gimp yourself to make this work.

In short, no pussyfooting with this decision. Ban any and every form of Dynamaxing entirely, or leave it alone. If you still wanna argue in favor of this route, give us tangible evidence that this would make the metagame better, not just some vague platitudes about how fun it would be.

 

[Soda]

I just wanna respond to you and everyone else that think that dynamax is somehow fine blah blah It's just the abusers - It's not remotely fine.

Dynamaxing heavily centers the game around 2-3 turns and is absolutely fucking random. defensively you have to just GUESS when the opponent is going to do it leaving you showing your ass when you get it wrong. Also having the answer to dynamax be dynamax the same turn should tell you everything you need to know. It also stacks severely and snowballs afterwards,making even prankster subbing not that viable of an option.
But lets talk about that shall we, having walls right now is pretty much just a fuck all bc they can die at any time from almost every mon the opposing team, and if u dynamax defensive ur stuck looking like an asshole with weak attacks and 3 protects, like a fucking loser.

Not only that, the sheer randomness of it can take out mons you need to win the game that usually arent in issue, for example. I bring in my mandibuzz at 75% of a +@ teapot, and this bit dynamaxes and z hyperbeams. and for free. theres nothing I could do there, this is turn 16 ad there are 4 mons left on both sides. just RANDOM AF. it makes it that you just autolose and only the attacking person knows. such a joke

I just wanna respond to you and everyone else that think there haven't always been mechanics in Pokemon that were total and utter bullshit - there have always been.

There have always been incredibly centralizing mechanics, Pokemon, and moves in this game. Your limit may be Dynamax, and some people may have had different limits throughout the years that didn't get entertained. Some people felt Z Moves were total bs that changed the game, some people liked the game before SR completely changed it (which GF has finally somewhat amended), some people feel like hax completely ruins any kind of genuine competitive merit of the game. Yet all those things stayed ultimately because they are in the game. So don't get mad at people for trying to entertain a way to keep Dynamax, even if it's in a separate tier or whatever. It's a part of the game. It's natural to not just want to completely abandon it at the very beginning of the generation. The fact of the matter is that you can Dynamax to counter someone else's Dynamax, and there are legitimate ways to stop Dmax pokemon, both cheese and non cheese. Ditto isn't broken or 100% necessary, just like Lando wasn't broken or 100% necessary.

From my perspective, I've always felt it insane that even at the very top of OU gameplay people relied on low accuracy moves like Hurricane and Focus Blast...but they do. Because they're in the game, hax/gambling is a part of the game. So is Dynamax.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

I just wanna respond to you and everyone else that think there haven't always been mechanics in Pokemon that were total and utter bullshit - there have always been.

There have always been incredibly centralizing mechanics, Pokemon, and moves in this game. Your limit may be Dynamax, and some people may have had different limits throughout the years that didn't get entertained. Some people felt Z Moves were total bs that changed the game, some people liked the game before SR completely changed it (which GF has finally somewhat amended), some people feel like hax completely ruins any kind of genuine competitive merit of the game. Yet all those things stayed ultimately because they are in the game. So don't get mad at people for trying to entertain a way to keep Dynamax, even if it's in a separate tier or whatever. It's a part of the game. It's natural to not just want to completely abandon it at the very beginning of the generation. The fact of the matter is that you can Dynamax to counter someone else's Dynamax, and there are legitimate ways to stop Dmax pokemon, both cheese and non cheese. Ditto isn't broken or 100% necessary, just like Lando wasn't broken or 100% necessary.

From my perspective, I've always felt it insane that even at the very top of OU gameplay people relied on low accuracy moves like Hurricane and Focus Blast...but they do. Because they're in the game, hax/gambling is a part of the game. So is Dynamax.

I don't know if you understand what youre saying lol. youre admitting that the mechanic is dumb af but want it to stay bc of some arbitrary ass reason lol got it.

anywho -" u can Dynamax to counter someone else's Dynamax" - this is false. not only do you have to predict the dynamax and go in the same turn, you also can get killed, but I hae the strong feeling that ur not that invested in your argument and just are flailing around ur fingers on this here smogon dot com. which is fine lol but like turn all the way down

 

[Srn]

I just wanna respond to you and everyone else that think there haven't always been mechanics in Pokemon that were total and utter bullshit - there have always been.

There have always been incredibly centralizing mechanics, Pokemon, and moves in this game. Your limit may be Dynamax, and some people may have had different limits throughout the years that didn't get entertained. Some people felt Z Moves were total bs that changed the game, some people liked the game before SR completely changed it (which GF has finally somewhat amended), some people feel like hax completely ruins any kind of genuine competitive merit of the game. Yet all those things stayed ultimately because they are in the game. So don't get mad at people for trying to entertain a way to keep Dynamax, even if it's in a separate tier or whatever. It's a part of the game. It's natural to not just want to completely abandon it at the very beginning of the generation. The fact of the matter is that you can Dynamax to counter someone else's Dynamax, and there are legitimate ways to stop Dmax pokemon, both cheese and non cheese. Ditto isn't broken or 100% necessary, just like Lando wasn't broken or 100% necessary.

From my perspective, I've always felt it insane that even at the very top of OU gameplay people relied on low accuracy moves like Hurricane and Focus Blast...but they do. Because they're in the game, hax/gambling is a part of the game. So is Dynamax.

Know what else is in the game? Double team. Prankster Swagger+T-wave (in gen6). The ability to sleep multiple pokemon.
I dont think anybody is arguing against your point; there have most certainly always been mechanics in mons that are bullshit and dumb.
But while you cite things like z-moves and rocks, they stayed because they were considered healthy, not because they are in the game. This is absolutely no reason to keep any mechanic we deem uncompetitive and overall broken, and we've done exactly that in the past. We banned baton pass, we added sleep clause, we got rid of swagplay, we have evasion and OHKO clause because we don't care if they're in the game, we think they're busted and so we got rid of them, and dynamax will be no different.

You also mention "its at the very beginning of the generation" as if that is any valid defense of keeping dynamax. We got rid of shadow tag days ago, and not a single fucking soul complained. Because it is obviously broken and uncompetitive, and keeping it around any longer just hampers any real metagame development.

Using your dynamax defensively to stop somebody's offensive dynamax is a shitty argument, requiring broken to check broken is no reason to keep broken. The legitimate ways to stop Dmax include ditto and packing highly specific hard counters, neither of which are healthy.

And don't compare hurricane/focus blast to dynamax just bc both are part of the game lmao, they couldn't be more different

 

[Callmeyeshua]

I laddered around 100 games and peaked top 25ish before I got tired of the already same cookie cutter builds. I must say this is perhaps the worst initial meta Ive experienced. Its pretty much not possible to build a team that covers all threats. The pex/ferro/corsola core than can handle most things loses game start to bulk up corviknight (this pokemon is also absurd, its sp def set can 1v1 modest aegislash without drops.) Sub hydreigon destroys it too with one free turn. Youre forced to make such stupid and unoptimal plays in this meta already like hard switching dragapult into hydreigon if you suspect sub. Otherwise you lose several mons for nothing.

Its just so many centralizing things already. You need like 2 checks for galar darm, two for gyrados, excadrill must be accounted for. And the tools we have to combat them are not up to snuff at all. Once people realize how good sub is corsola will be shit too.

This is before we even get to dynamax with is the real problem. Shit like dynamax gyra takes 150% max from modest rotom, who apparently is a counter. So it cant even kill. The added bulk just makes some things even sillier with the added 3 turn z moves. Something has to be done sooner than later because dynamaxing is pretty overpowered with some mons.

Like 80% of my matches above 1450 were renditions of the same cookie cutter sand balance but why wouldnt it be. Its so solid and all it takes is one thing to break through (usually corvi since there is so few things that can acrually 2hko this shit). Its already boring. Hopefully some innovations can arise otherwise this is looking stale till natdex

 

[Soda]

Know what else is in the game? Double team. Prankster Swagger+T-wave (in gen6). The ability to sleep multiple pokemon.
I dont think anybody is arguing against your point; there have most certainly always been mechanics in mons that are bullshit and dumb.
But while you cite things like z-moves and rocks, they stayed because they were considered healthy, not because they are in the game. This is absolutely no reason to keep any mechanic we deem uncompetitive and overall broken, and we've done exactly that in the past. We banned baton pass, we added sleep clause, we got rid of swagplay, we have evasion and OHKO clause because we don't care if they're in the game, we think they're busted and so we got rid of them, and dynamax will be no different.

You also mention "its at the very beginning of the generation" as if that is any valid defense of keeping dynamax. We got rid of shadow tag days ago, and not a single fucking soul complained. Because it is obviously broken and uncompetitive, and keeping it around any longer just hampers any real metagame development.

Using your dynamax defensively to stop somebody's offensive dynamax is a shitty argument, requiring broken to check broken is no reason to keep broken. The legitimate ways to stop Dmax include ditto and packing highly specific hard counters, neither of which are healthy.

And don't compare hurricane/focus blast to dynamax just bc both are part of the game lmao, they couldn't be more different

I never said that Dynamax should stay. I said people should understand why there might be trepidation in completely banning the mechanic at the beginning of a generation. It's not the same as banning Baton Pass or Shadow Tag. Those have been banned in previous generations, of course it's not surprising that they'd be banned at the beginning of the generation. They have been tested and their impact/effects are well understood. They are also one move and one ability, not an entire mechanic. This is new ground, it's like banning Z Moves or the very use of Mega Evolutions at the beginning of the generations they came out in. I already said I think there should be a tier where Dmax should be allowed and the official tier be the non Dmax one. I just think that's the logical conclusion to all this kerfuffle.

And I'm not comparing them directly, I'm saying that there are parts of the game that have always been anti-competitive but you deal with them because it's the game. To me personally it's crazy that such low accuracy moves get used at the highest level of play, but people have decided that they're okay with that. Because that's the game and you can't change the game too much. I was just using it as a personal example.

 

[Dumb Sir]

Ditto isn't broken or 100% necessary, just like Lando wasn't broken or 100% necessary.

I'm not writing this to straw man the argument, I just wanted to use this opportunity to talk about Ditto itself...

Sure, Ditto isn't 100% mandatory to run on teams, but that itself doesn't make it not broken. What Ditto stands for is fundamentally broken this gen. Ditto was never as cancerous as it is now in any gen prior, and this can be mostly attributed Dynamax itself. Ditto's fundamental role is to punish trainers who play haphazardly and reward the antetive trainer who has a planned out win condition. However Dynamax completely changes this. Never before has there been a another gen where I had to ask myself, "Is this team weak to Ditto?" because, rather than Ditto's utility being unique in a match to match basis, it's literally a better version of any other mon you can put in your 6th slot. If your DD Gyrados can't defeat an apposing Ditto transformed into a faster Gyarados, well you're fucked. Ditto literally becomes a better Gyardos, outrunning your own Gyarados while then not being able to be walled traditionally because it can Dynamax, remove its choice lock, and use 3 Z-Moves to smash any would be wall, and then still being alive to counter sweep again. And even then, an apposing Ditto can't counter sweep a Dynamxed Ditto because Ditto cannot transform into Ditto. In this way, Ditto becomes too consistent, which is especially troublesome because this is a Pokémon that can be literally be any other Pokémon depending on the match. I'd much rather fight Lando than this bs because at least Lando has relatively consistent counter play (but Z-Moves are still bs).

 

[Soda]

I don't know if you understand what youre saying lol. youre admitting that the mechanic is dumb af but want it to stay bc of some arbitrary ass reason lol got it.

anywho -" u can Dynamax to counter someone else's Dynamax" - this is false. not only do you have to predict the dynamax and go in the same turn, you also can get killed, but I hae the strong feeling that ur not that invested in your argument and just are flailing around ur fingers on this here smogon dot com. which is fine lol but like turn all the way down

um lol th point i was making is that there r plenty of dumb af mechnics n this gam that stay bcus they are...part of th game. u can call that some arbitrary ass reason i guess lol

anywho

 

[Pabloaram]

I just wanna respond to you and everyone else that think there haven't always been mechanics in Pokemon that were total and utter bullshit - there have always been.

There have always been incredibly centralizing mechanics, Pokemon, and moves in this game. Your limit may be Dynamax, and some people may have had different limits throughout the years that didn't get entertained. Some people felt Z Moves were total bs that changed the game, some people liked the game before SR completely changed it (which GF has finally somewhat amended), some people feel like hax completely ruins any kind of genuine competitive merit of the game. Yet all those things stayed ultimately because they are in the game. So don't get mad at people for trying to entertain a way to keep Dynamax, even if it's in a separate tier or whatever. It's a part of the game. It's natural to not just want to completely abandon it at the very beginning of the generation. The fact of the matter is that you can Dynamax to counter someone else's Dynamax, and there are legitimate ways to stop Dmax pokemon, both cheese and non cheese. Ditto isn't broken or 100% necessary, just like Lando wasn't broken or 100% necessary.

From my perspective, I've always felt it insane that even at the very top of OU gameplay people relied on low accuracy moves like Hurricane and Focus Blast...but they do. Because they're in the game, hax/gambling is a part of the game. So is Dynamax.

I am in favor to this option...
Dinamax has two big problems:
1) the possibility of using at any times, without having the restriction of objects such as scarf, band and specs, limits the possibilities of response
2) The snowball effect generated by the boost and wheaters affects the rest of the fight, allowing you to clean the rest of the team easily.
if dynamax is banned only, leaving only Gigantimax in ou, I think it will be easier to control it because only some mons have access to this mechanic.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

The problem with Ditto is that is really awkward to fit on a team. Ditto's low hp makes it a very hard to switch in. Because of this, Ditto only comes in when a teammate faints. The reason its used so much is because of Dynamaxing. Without Dynamaxing, I can justify using other Scarfers but the HP bonus makes revenge killing hard. So Ditto is almost becomes required because its probably the most reliable way to deal with them. Lets remember that the higher the power level, the better Ditto becomes.

Also yeah I think Gigamaxing is totally fine, never had issues with those mons because I can actually predict them.

 

[JackHammer360]

um lol th point i was making is that there r plenty of dumb af mechnics n this gam that stay bcus they are...part of th game. u can call that some arbitrary ass reason i guess lol

anywho

There are plenty of dumb af mechanics in this game, that's why tiers exist. We can ban things that are uncompetitive in this environment, that's the reason people prefer these tiers to BSS. Battle Stadium is a NIGHTMARE right now, even compared to this, and I don't think any mechanic should be immune to being looked at critically. People *did* call for Mega bans, people *did* call for Z-Move bans, and they were ruled as fine. Most mechanics that are polarizing to this extent were either banned without a second thought (Trapping abilities and the really insane Megas), or are notorious for "ruining" their tier (Gen 5 Weather and Z-Moves).

Ditto's prevalence in the tier is, imo, one of the best proofs of this meta being in shambles. When the threatlist is so wide and so potent that the best response to a mon that your team can't handle is to steal that threat, there is a problem. It is unrealistic for most teams to be able to account for most common threats without relying on Ditto. Why would I run any other scarfer? (Edit: other than G-Darm lol that thing is wild)

Finally, just real quick, Gyarados makes me want to vomit. It's not uncommon for me to be unable to feasibly use a third of my team until that behemoth is gone or else I have no chance at stopping that thing from steamrolling my whole team. The snowballing that it achieves is like if Timid Kartana was actually good.

 

[chimp]

I feel like banning dynamax is akin to pro smash players banning items/final smash meters. Those are technically mechanics that the game itself encourages you to play with, but it's not at all necessary to do so. While this precedant has not been set for Pokemon, I don't really see it as a huge ethical problem just because "it's the big shiny new mechanic for this gen." I think any arguments for or against dynamaxing should revolve around whether or not they actually add anything of value to the gameplay. Some have argued there is some skill to dynamaxing and that many players have yet to really work it into their strategies since it's still so new. If this is the case than I can see dynamaxing being a positive addition to competitive Pokemon. But whether or not that's the case has yet to be seen.

 

[onatolentino]

No disagreements from me, just wanted to point out that switching into a resisted hit from Darm doesn't actually put you into the safety zone because the potential to Dynamax and because Darm has such strong coverage, it is able to threaten that dynamax on almost everything that is currently used in this meta.

As for forcing Dyna-max, it depends on your team comp i guess. The problem with "forcing" the dynamax but still losing your pokemon means that Darm stays alive and you lose a resistance to one of its strong attacks, with ups the prediction game more. As I mentioned, Darm is so much weaker after Dyna-max is used up as prediction becomes much more straightforward, so you have a point there, but nonetheless if it's killed a defensive pokemon on your team, I feel like it has already somewhat done its job, and if it's still alive, it's a pain in the butt. Personally, I find dealing with Dyna-Max Gyarados, Barra etc way easier to deal with cos they're very linear and due to their immense popularity, I have hard counters, whereas a Darm that threatens Dyna-max is much scarier for me.

What would be those counters to Max Gyarados and Barra btw?

 

[ORAS-Mega]

I don't usually post but...
Personally, I feel like people are really reaching when it comes to whether gigantimax should stay.

If dynamax goes, so should gigantimax. Predictability does "fix" the issue of the mechanic. It's still 3 turns of a mon possibly setting up. This makes most mons still a huge threat. You still have 5 other mons to support that one gigantimax mon. And just like now, maybe to a lesser extent, you will need specific mons to deal with Gigantimax. Which centralizes the meta...again.

Now my hot take is that People have started adjusting to dynamax. When I see some battles, it looks like people are prepped well to deal with it, or lose if they aren't prepped enough. Now even as I say this, I won't deny that this hugely limits what you can do with a team since dynamax is that team breaking. It's like making a team but not accounting for that one mon that can break through the team, except this time all mons can possibly break through the team. By "adjusting" it just means that right now, there are only a handful (and I may be exaggerating) of mons that are viable.

The question we should be asking ourselves is "can we play a meta like this for the next year or so?" I see a lot of people saying it's too early but there's clearly a trend of which mons to use right now. Do we wait until we start forming tiers? Will that affect what we constantly see being used? Will teams always be this restricted to build around? etc.

To me, I like dynamax but that's because its funny to see a match turn upside down in 3 turns. Would I play it competitively? lol no. But best know I'd hop on cartridge and use it there. I know this forum is about OU so I also wanted to drop a set that I think could do quite a bit if used right.

Hopefully nobody thought of this yet

NERF THIS (Mimikyu) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

EDIT: I know its a gimmicky set but the drain punch is to get focus sash back if you don't die too fast.

 

[earl]

I don't usually post but...
Personally, I feel like people are really reaching when it comes to whether gigantimax should stay.

If dynamax goes, so should gigantimax. Predictability does "fix" the issue of the mechanic. It's still 3 turns of a mon possibly setting up. This makes most mons still a huge threat. You still have 5 other mons to support that one gigantimax mon. And just like now, maybe to a lesser extent, you will need specific mons to deal with Gigantimax. Which centralizes the meta...again.

Now my hot take is that People have started adjusting to dynamax. When I see some battles, it looks like people are prepped well to deal with it, or lose if they aren't prepped enough. Now even as I say this, I won't deny that this hugely limits what you can do with a team since dynamax is that team breaking. It's like making a team but not accounting for that one mon that can break through the team, except this time all mons can possibly break through the team. By "adjusting" it just means that right now, there are only a handful (and I may be exaggerating) of mons that are viable.

The question we should be asking ourselves is "can we play a meta like this for the next year or so?" I see a lot of people saying it's too early but there's clearly a trend of which mons to use right now. Do we wait until we start forming tiers? Will that affect what we constantly see being used? Will teams always be this restricted to build around? etc.

To me, I like dynamax but that's because its funny to see a match turn upside down in 3 turns. Would I play it competitively? lol no. But best know I'd hop on cartridge and use it there. I know this forum is about OU so I also wanted to drop a set that I think could do quite a bit if used right.

Hopefully nobody thought of this yet

NERF THIS (Mimikyu) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

Mimikyu loses 10% of its HP upon disguise breaking- Focus Sash is useless on it now

 

[Colonel M]

But best know I'd hop on cartridge and use it there. I know this forum is about OU so I also wanted to drop a set that I think could do quite a bit if used right.

Hopefully nobody thought of this yet

NERF THIS (Mimikyu) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough

I found some nice irony in the bolded words.

Either way this doesn't work. When Disguise breaks Mimikyu takes a small amount of damage - thus preventing Focus Sash from activating. You can thank Battle Spot Singles for ruining that.

 

[666lumberjack]

I finally built a team that actually feels reasonably solid and fun to play and isn't the same old corsola ferropex ditto shit, so I thought I'd share it.

Importable

Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Rest

Hatterene (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Mystical Fire
- Trick Room
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam

Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Aromatherapy
- Moonblast

Mandibuzz (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave / Knock Off
- Toxic

Golisopod (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Leech Life
- Liquidation
- Aqua Jet

Duraludon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stalwart
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dragon Pulse
- Thunderbolt
- Stealth Rock
- Steel Beam

This is a balance team that aims to handle the most obvious metagame threats well, pack a lot of different kinds of utility and not care a whole lot about speed. The general gameplan is for Golisopod and Duraludon to soften up the enemy team for a Hatterene sweep, but a lot of games don't actually get that far because banded First Impression is really nice in the current meta, easily OHKOing Darmanitan-G, 4/0 Rotom-W after SR and anything frailer and thus shutting down a lot of the fast / scarfed mons that are popular at the moment. Being locked into a useless move is much less of a liability when you have the option to pop dynamax and switch moves if you really can't afford to give up a free turn.

The rest of the team is straight off the 'Viable Pokemon' resource list. Unaware Clef as insurance against setup mons, Rotom-H mainly to have a surefire answer to rock-less Darmantian-G (although it really misses pain split) and Mandibuzz to check ghosts and defog (spread lives 2 LO Sludge Wave from Timid Gengar). Duraludon is your standard SR tank, but also helps to check water types and random physical attackers. Hatterene is a very potent cleaner and can also wallbreak if you dynamax it, brings magic bounce and doesn't lose to Ditto.

I haven't played a ton of games with this team yet but it feels like a pretty good squad. Mold breaker Excadrill and earthquake Gyarados are a pain to deal with, but neither is insurmountable and the latter isn't very common.

P.S: I mentioned in my first post I wasn't sure whether dynamax was broken yet. It is.