Almost all strong attacks used right now are contact moves. Fire is very rare currently as rain is everywhere, and can be countered by flash fire.Fluffy only protects against contact moves, and makes you weak to fire. It's not hard to circumvent.
Almost all strong attacks used right now are contact moves. Fire is very rare currently as rain is everywhere, and can be countered by flash fire.Fluffy only protects against contact moves, and makes you weak to fire. It's not hard to circumvent.
I made an edit, fwiw.Almost all strong attacks used right now are contact moves. Fire is very rare currently as rain is everywhere, and can be countered by flash fire.
Except furscales keeps the entire meta in check, not just weather.Please ban Fur Coat and Ice Scales. I don't care if it "might not be broken." It has forced the meta into semi-stall bs the only reasonable argument I've seen is that weather would be broken. This thought process makes no sense to me. This is a case of broken check broken. If weather becomes unmanageable after FurScales ban then we can just ban weather abilities. Stall has so many good options and completely invalidates most attackers and outside of this Stall vs. Stall is way too common as well sometimes it lasts forever. This meta is boring as hell as long as FurScales is around, please for the love of god ban FurScales. Stall will adapt it still has access to so many great abilities even w/o IceScales. This meta is fun assuming you don't run into IceScales which invalidates every style that isn't specifically tailored to it.
Can IceScales be beaten? Yes. Is its presence in Shared Power a healthy one? Absolutely not.
No strategy is unbeatable, this doesn't mean that it isn't broken and unhealthy. IceScales makes offense and balance basically unusable in conjunction w/ other annoying abilities. Diversity is completely killed when every team is running the same 3-4 mons banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a much better direction.
I'm not sure if you read my post at all. I mention that if offensive abilities prove to be broken in the future then they could be banned as well, banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a better direction and we'll cross your bridge when we get there. Please don't fill the thread with snarky one-liners anymore.Except furscales keeps the entire meta in check, not just weather.
It's cool if you wanna skip all the points being made but don't say you don't get the thought process then.
Furscales prevents any offensive ability to stack up and overwhelm every single Pokemon. I don't know how much more obvious it has to be but there is nothing that naturally takes moves like strong jaw adap tough claws fish rend or crunch without getting 2hko'd.
Sound spam (Throat spray/flare boost pixilate punk rock boomburst) Steel spam (steely Steelworker Adap/Sand force tough claws Meteor Mash Lucario) Stored Power abuse, etc. etc. etc.
You do not live these without furscales and that goes for both offense and defense. By all means post me some proof that
the meta isnt completely killed by offense if you ban these abilities. I'm interested.
I see. Were you here last gen for Shared Power? You missed out on a huge argument that was brought up, because it was there last gen after we banned sharing of certain defensive abilities. Of course, I don't know if many people know, but near the end was the age of RPS battles. Basically 3 team archetypes that beat or were beat by the other 2. And it was an auto-lose if you were using the wrong team. Now, if you want to go ban offensive abilities, I suggest you look at last gen's sharing banlist. Now invalidate any 'mon that has one of those abilities. You're looking at a micrometa at that point.I'm not sure if you read my post at all. I mention that if offensive abilities prove to be broken in the future then they could be banned as well, banning FurScales would move Shared Power in a better direction and we'll cross your bridge when we get there. Please don't fill the thread with snarky one-liners anymore.
You're being rude for no reason, which gives a bad image of yourself. Remember that in the future.Check my edit.
And maybe use different moves then, lol.
Seriously, the logic is horrendous. Contact moves will hit into Fluffy. So use different ones. Use more special mons. Throwing a brick against a wall doesn't mean the wall is broken for not crumbling under a brick.
There's been people crying out for unaware + simple ban (jeepeezles did a little bit higher up) and I fully support that. But it's neither or both.There are people saying that FurScales is broken, and there are people saying that they're only broken when paired with Unaware. I don't recall anyone moving for Unaware to be banned, and I'm curious why.
I feel you ignored the core point of the post. "Contact moves will hit into Fluffy. So use different ones. Use more special mons."You're being rude for no reason, which gives a bad image of yourself. Remember that in the future.
Now onto the main point. The problem is the "other moves" are way weaker than the contact moves, meaning Fur Coat will be suficient to wall the mons that use them. Either you use the strongest move and run into Fluffy, either you use the non-contact move (and forget about fighting type attacks, knock off, bite moves, etc) and you still get walled because they're weaker.
It's kinda necessary to keep Simple in check this is also why someone suggested that if Unaware is banned Simple should go with it. Unaware would be a pretty huge hit for stall but moves such as Haze still exist so it's not like FurScales would suddenly become unusable. Think to how stall works in other tiers, in those only one mon has it and sometimes that one mon is that not suitable to check the setup even at neutral but regardless stall always finds a way. The most common method I see is chip damage and w/ Corrosion chip becomes easier to apply as Toxic can't be absorbed but there is other ways such as phasing or the aforementioned Haze. Stall will still work w/o Unaware and it's a possibility that FurScales would be fine w/o it but there is no way to know by theorymoning.There are people saying that FurScales is broken, and there are people saying that they're only broken when paired with Unaware. I don't recall anyone moving for Unaware to be banned, and I'm curious why.
I agree with what you're saying:It's kinda necessary to keep Simple in check this is also why someone suggested that if Unaware is banned Simple should go with it. Unaware would be a pretty huge hit for stall but moves such as Haze still exist so it's not like FurScales would suddenly become unusable. Think to how stall works in other tiers, in those only one mon has it and sometimes that one mon is that not suitable to check the setup even at neutral but regardless stall always finds a way. The most common method I see is chip damage and w/ Corrosion chip becomes easier to apply as Toxic can't be absorbed but there is other ways such as phasing or the aforementioned Haze. Stall will still work w/o Unaware and it's a possibility that FurScales would be fine w/o out but there is no way to no by theorymoning.
I understand the sentiment of avoiding bans, but the meta is pretty awful to play at the moment. I'd rather weed out the blatantly overpowered abilities and be left with a meta that isn't the Stall or HO mess that it is right now. Even if the meta gets significantly smaller (but seeing as they're only ability bans, there would still be plenty of mons left over).I see. Were you here last gen for Shared Power? You missed out on a huge argument that was brought up, because it was there last gen after we banned sharing of certain defensive abilities. Of course, I don't know if many people know, but near the end was the age of RPS battles. Basically 3 team archetypes that beat or were beat by the other 2. And it was an auto-lose if you were using the wrong team. Now, if you want to go ban offensive abilities, I suggest you look at last gen's sharing banlist. Now invalidate any 'mon that has one of those abilities. You're looking at a micrometa at that point.
Please, and for anyone else who wants to ban FurScales, look at last gen. The banlist, the RPS system near the end, and all the arguments that are similar here. We're here to try and restart it, and I love the meta. I don't want it to die again.
Yeah, I agree. I didn't mean to say it should be banned, just looked at AFTER both Unaware and Simple are banned. Really, Unaware is the enabler of stall teams. It removes the oldest and simplest way of breaking fat mons, which is set up moves. I do agree with you that HO would run rampant, I only meant to say if stall is STILL too centralizing then maybe the culprit is FurScales.Noooo thanks.
Banning furscales just means every diversity in the meta dies and becomes "what HO RPS wins?" (will elaborate later. maybe.)
Unaware would be a huge hit for stall but it could also benefit from it's ban. Sets like Iron Defense Corviknight, Kommo-O, or Toxapex could become common and combined with Fur Coat would make them almost impossible to kill with physical moves. The same logic can be applied to moves like Cosmic Power or Amnesia. I see this becoming a popular set especially combined with Pressure, since then even Rest could be used to help stall out the opponent while not draining your own PP. Plus, combined with moves like Body Press, Stored Power, or even Power Trip you could even set up a sweep, potentially.It's kinda necessary to keep Simple in check this is also why someone suggested that if Unaware is banned Simple should go with it. Unaware would be a pretty huge hit for stall but moves such as Haze still exist so it's not like FurScales would suddenly become unusable.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I also agree that the meta is kinda messy, but if bans are going to be put into place, a couple things have to be understood. One, I think that there is the possibility of needing a mass ban. Basically, remove a lot of the main abilities and combinations, like Adaptability and FurScales. For balance. Two, making the meta smaller will leave a lot of lower tiered 'mons, and I think that can scare off new players. My main goal this time around is not for true balance, but for survivability. So, if leaving a mess of Stall vs. HO teams means the meta continues to grow and attract, so be it.I understand the sentiment of avoiding bans, but the meta is pretty awful to play at the moment. I'd rather weed out the blatantly overpowered abilities and be left with a meta that isn't the Stall or HO mess that it is right now. Even if the meta gets significantly smaller (but seeing as they're only ability bans, there would still be plenty of mons left over).
Although this meta by concept seems to be either stall or HO due to the nature of stacking abilities, so if people are into the experience of 10-or-500 turn games more power to them
When you keep around a few very clearly broken mons/strats that begins to become the only thing you see, especially on high ladder. Banning a few things actually ENABLES far more. Example, Unaware ban making every set up sweeper actually viable. I personally try to be as conservative as possible with bans, but when a meta is so clearly shaped by just a few mons/strats, something is wrong.plz don't just ban everything because then what is the point of having this meta?
Amazing, thanks! I understand what you mean with FurScales, but I still think unaware needs banning too. Or at least banned from sharing it with other Pokémon at the least :)Quickbanning Simple. It forces you to run Unaware, and even then it can overpower you with Power Trip and/or Stored Power.
Will make a decision on other elements soon, but keep up the discussion in the mean time. At the moment, I echo the sentiments above that Fur Coat and Ice Scales are necessary to keep the metagame in balance.
I also want to add that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil, for what ever reason, are legal (when they shouldn’t be legal even in regular OU with how inherently Evasion and similar mechanics such as Flinching are uncompetitive). It’s even worse here since that evasion buff is essentially permanent against non-weather and non-cloud nine team.Hello I am going to echo the sentiment that weather should be looked at. I believe the problem stems from the fact the mons at hand can set up their own weather and benefit from them, creating essentially eternal weather like gen 5. That is no issue, however the immediate speed boost and immunity are what make it broken in my opinion. This allows weather HO to have auto-win matchups versus other weatherless HO and become a 50/50 versus other weather. For me, there have been many weather vs weather battles that have come down to having focus sash for the extra switch in turn, it is ridiculous. I will work on getting you replays. Stall handles it nicely but requires either or both a flash fire mon. Stall can also use it to bypass heal bell PP with hydration+dry skin making it very difficult for balance teams to chip away with toxic. That becomes very centralizing, to the point where if you do not have at least 2 mons dedicated only for weather control on any archetype team you are certain to lose. It is also centralizing as it is the best form of HO by far, leaving little options for other ones. You are 100% better off running weather abusers/controllers than not running them. This paired up with powerful abilities like tinted and adapt, in conjunction with powerful moves like bolt beak and fishous, means you can have a team of 6 grass types and still lose.
Tldr: weather is instant no backdraw speed boost and you are better off running it than not, making it uncompetitive
Yes this but I am going to disagree with unburden since that requires the item disposal, and is not instant on switch in. I have no opinion on surge and will have to play with it more.I also want to add that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil, for what ever reason, are legal (when they shouldn’t be legal even in regular OU with how inherently Evasion and similar mechanics such as Flinching are uncompetitive). It’s even worse here since that evasion buff is essentially permanent against non-weather and non-cloud nine team.
On top of that, you might as well add Surge Surf, Unburden, and any other Speed enhancing ability as it is pretty much the same problem.