Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Fish Out of Water

[Infernape2018]

Alright, time for my thoughts on Dracovish

Dracovish is, at it's core Fishious Rend, the 127.5 BP STAB move that gets doubled if you move first. Even with it's lackluster 90 Attack, the sheer power of this move has completely warped the tier into a mess. The two Choice sets that Dracovish commonly runs are amazing: Scarf smashes any mons that aren't Zeraora or Dragapult(and they can't switch in for the life of them) and Band with Webs Support simply kills shit, especially since it's forces out the most common Defogger, Corviknight. This abomination of sea-life has completely made it so that you must run a Dracovish check, of which there are only 5 of them that are viable, and they all have their problems:

Max Def Ferro is probably the most solid check to this beast, as it resists Draco's 2 spam moves in Rend and Outrage. If the player switches
out, Ferro can get hazards up
The problem: This thing is very susceptible to chip, and with it switching in on Rends and also lacking major recovery outside of Leech Seed(imagine getting Synthesis), this thing can only check it for so long. Also Dracovish can learn Low Kick(252+ Atk Dracovish Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 112-132 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, band has a 30% to 2HKO)

A Ferrothorn that trades the Dragon resistance for actual recovery in Regenerator+Recover. Again, solidly can switch in and eat hits, right?
The Problem: 252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery. Band just destroys Toxapex with Rend spam, and Scarf can use Psychic Fangs or chip this thing down with teammate support. All Toxapex can hope for is a lucky Scald burn on the switch or that it poisons it with Baneful Bunker.

Hey, where'd these guys come from? In all honesty, if you're looking to stop Rend spam these two are great for the job. Seis gets 25% recovery and Gastro gets a SpA boost from Rend, forcing out these sets.
The Problem: Toad is basically praying it takes 0 chip whatsoever in case Vish decides to click Outrage, and genuinely hates Knock Off and no recovery outside of switching in on Rend. Gastrodon is in the same boat, except it has even lower Defense and lacks the Rocks to at the very least, get the chip on. Both get destroyed by Outrage, so these are hardly checks.

In all honestly, outside of these four your best bet are faster Scarfers or Dragapult, but good luck getting them in. When you can literally get 6-0'd simply because you took too much chip, there is a serious problem. I 100% believe that Dracovish needs the boot, so ban this.

and then ban clef but that's another story

 

[Empress Mobile]

First of all, I do run leftovers almost everytime and knock off and u turn aren't as bad as you think for celebi. The only pokemon who would ever click U Turn against Celebi is Corviknight and that does 41% max but that would require that Corviknight ends up getting paralyzed. Knock Off isn't too much of a problem since the only pokemon Celebi would switch into who could have knock off are Zeraora, Seismi, and Toxapex. Either way, It's pretty rare for celebi to be switching into rocks since Corviknight can almost always defog and the main Rocker is a Water Ground type that celebi can OHKO. Dracovish will never want to click Crunch and the chance of a defense drop is pretty low. And yes, I have tried this set and I have never struggled against Dracovish since unlike Pex and Ferro it can actually deal with Fishous Rend even after it has been knocked off

I'd consider Celebi an incredibly inconsistent answer to Dracovish but I additionally want to address the idea that only Corviknight would ever click U-Turn on Celebi -- how exactly did you come to that conclusion? Incineroar, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Cinderace, and Mandibuzz can all effortlessly U-Turn on Celebi along with, perhaps most importantly, Pelipper which sets up rain which puts Celebi in range of a 2HKO from even Scarf Fishious Rend after U-Turn damage and SR + Leftovers recovery.

 

[James2464]

I'd consider Celebi an incredibly inconsistent answer to Dracovish but I additionally want to address the idea that only Corviknight would ever click U-Turn on Celebi -- how exactly did you come to that conclusion? Incineroar, Dragapult, Hydreigon, Cinderace, and Mandibuzz can all effortlessly U-Turn on Celebi along with, perhaps most importantly, Pelipper which sets up rain which puts Celebi in range of a 2HKO from even Scarf Fishious Rend after U-Turn damage and SR + Leftovers recovery.

What I meant was that Celebi would switch out on other pokemon anyway, as in Celebi would switch out against Hydreigon and Cinderace so it isn't talking U-Turn. The only U-Turn pokemon Celebi should stay in on are Corviknight and maybe Manidbuzz and those pokemon don't do that much
0 Atk Mandibuzz U-turn vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Celebi: 112-136 (27.7 - 33.7%) -- 88.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[zbr]

What I meant was that Celebi would switch out on other pokemon anyway, as in Celebi would switch out against Hydreigon and Cinderace so it isn't talking U-Turn. The only U-Turn pokemon Celebi should stay in on are Corviknight and maybe Manidbuzz and those pokemon don't do that much
0 Atk Mandibuzz U-turn vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Celebi: 112-136 (27.7 - 33.7%) -- 88.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

guess what happens when you swap celebi out on an opposing u-turning mon with vish in the team..?

right, you get to relive the horror of considering whether to sack a mon to bring in celebi or to risk celebi eating a crunch that it cannot under reliable circumstances eat.

I rlly think its fair to move on from the fact of whether or not Celebi is a check or a counter to vish because generally celebi is hella circumstantial (since its able to beat conk and fatter ground poison core teams) in the current meta but its really safe to say that it isn't going to be able to properly threaten vish.

vish has team mates that are able to effectively scare out celebi anyway.

 

[Finchinator]

Celebi is barely even viable as is; it accomplishes absolutely nothing in the context of the metagame and is at-best a soft check to Scarf Dracovish that still loses to CB variants. Wasting a page of discussion on it is pointless, so let's stop.

 

[TURBODERP]

Dracovish doesn't need to be able to 1v1 literally every single OU-and-below mon to be broken. Mega Khanga could be checked by RH Ferrothorn/Sableye/Garchomp, but that didn't mean it wasn't broken.

Remember that Dracovish also has 5 other teammates that can Knock Off Leftovers/Helmet from Dracovish checks, set up hazards, or be threats themselves: thus tipping the scales in favor of Dracovish even more. And most of the time, Dracovish isn't forced to stay in against threats that switch in (especially with the absence of Pursuit). It can switch out and come back in later once its checks are even slightly worn down (depending on the sets of course). Or, it can just punch holes in everything else and thus make it much easier for the rest of its team to clean up (which can be just as dangerous). Sure, the meta adapts to Dracovish to a degree (which is also why it's not S rank), but that in and of itself is exploitable and also not a great sign given the circumstances.

 

[DragonsDreams]

In my personal opinion I believe Dracovish is worthy of the ban due to the sheer amount of power it holds in its weird deformed body. A Pokemon hitting hard shouldn't be the only factor while discussing if its broken or not. But the fact is it can easily ohko or 2hitok mons that resists water is scary. The argument to keep Dracovish in tier is that there mons that "check/counter" it and while yes that statement is true. It still constrains the meta and forces you to run mons you wouldn't want to such as gastro,jellienct,seismatoad and more.

 

[thorium-90]

I say Dracovish should not be banned.

I am gonna start with the idea that wall breakers/sweepers are by definition, supposed to break wall pokemon/clean up the game, once their counters/checks are removed. Likewise, revenge killers are supposed to get a KO after switching in from losing a pokemon. I think in any generation, people had to be prepared to deal with specific pokemon (some that come to mind/have been mentioned are greninja, kartana, moxie garydos, and mega charizard X). This comes down more to knowing your team, and how to use it.
People have also mentioned Darcovish is more of a problem at lower levels due to its ease of use, which is true, but I think this is because of lack skill with a team, as opposed to a weak team. Once you know how your team works, you can play against it.

The most common answers to dracovish (whether it is countering, checking, or revenge killing) include:

• zenzora, dragapult, other scarfed mons on the offensive side
• Ferrothorn/toxapex/seismitoad on the defensive side

Another pokemon I noticed hadn’t been brought up much as a counter (maybe pseudo-counter) to dracovish is another dracovish. The double resist limits the damage of fishious rend. If the opponents dracovish is choice locked to fishious rend (which it almost always is) , you can, you can KO with outrage (or even dragon rush), or start your own fishious rending. (I am not sure if there any rules about counting a pokemon as its own counter)

• If Opponent is banded: 252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 66-78 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (I don’t think the x2 is counted in this, but that still makes it a 3 hit KO, if the opponent goes first all three times)
• If opponent is scarfed: 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 88-104 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (No 3 hit KO (32.2*3= 96.6%)

Most HO teams will have some variation of scarfed/high-speed pokemon, and are willing to sacrifice pokemon to keep the momentum, so they should have an answer. Ferrothorn/pex have been and are two of the best defensive Pokémon. I don’t think removing dracovish is going to change this. I am not gonna say Seismitoads rise might not be because of draccovish (idk, maybe lack of mega swampert), but as other people have mentioned, seismitoad has value outside of being purely a dracovosh counter due to typing and utility moves (stealth rocks, toxic, knock off).

And looking at the most used offensive pokemon in OU, there are mostly physical attackers, so the investment in Def will likely still be higher then Spe Def.

So to conclude that part, to use dracovish well, you have to remove checks/ set up with sticky web/hazards, but you could say the same for any sweeper/setup sweeper. Dragon dance/shell smash users/moxie etc.



The other topic is people say the gen 8 meta is stale, but I think that’s due to a larger cause (the lack of the national dex) which is what limits options, not the presence of the Fish. Personally, I don't think these topics should be mixed up.

• Comparing generations, a other pokemon that were uu/ru/nu, and have raised in their usage in gen 8. I think when more Pokémon are released, it will be changed
• ex: cloyster, hippowdon to name a few

If/When the national dex is opened up, I think dracovish won't have nearly the same presence as there will be much better counters (tapus and tanglegrowth come to mind) and more revenge options

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

Just wanted to mention that Ferrothorn does NOT reliably check Banded Dracovish even if running 252/252+ Physically defensive Ferrothorn and doesn't even remotely come close to a counter.

First it can not switch in:
Lefties: 252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Helmet: 252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Additionally, at the end of a 1v1 between Ferrothorn and Dracovish, Ferrothorn won with 5% HP in this simulation which is enough for it to have died from Stealth Rock damage, had Rocks have been up. In addition, if Ferrothorn chooses Iron Head over Body Press it also fails to check Dracovish reliably regardless of the circumstances. It only took me 2 simulations for the Fishious Rend rend rolls to finish below 6.25%.


One user asked how Greninja wasn't comparable with Dracovish, and this is the answer: the reliable water checks aren't actually reliable (barring Gastrodon and maybe Seismitoad when paired with Clefable) and it's not as if scarfed Pokemon can make desperate switch-ins like with Greninja, you could predict a move, come in and possibly threaten out Greninja. If I had req I would easily vote ban. Dragapult and Zeraora do outspeed scarfed Dracovish but neither can even switch-in to banded Fishious Rend once, so it would have to correctly predict the scarfed set to make any sort of emergency switch-in. The problem is that Dracovish is over-centralizing as many have brought up, but it might actually still be broken as well.
It seems people have also neglected that Dracovish's typing, bulk, and power even when slower than Pokemon is certainly above average at worst. It's not as if Dracovish can't survive a single attack from Zeraora because it easily can live a hit from Zeraora and threaten an OHKO with the banded set so pretending Dracovish is very easy to revenge for offense seems very disingenuous as I only can come up with Dragapult and scarfed Hydreigon for Pokemon that really can revenge Dracovish reliably aside from it's counters. On the other hand, it is admittedly fairly easy to scout damage from Dracovish to figure out if it's banded or scarfed, but even if you understand that it is banded it might be hard to revenge it with certain powerful Pokemon even such as Gengar which even while running Choice Specs risks a roll to kill a Dracovish at full health.

 

[doublevee]

Ok so I won't harp on the way vish constricts teambuilding and centralizes the meta to the point of Seismitoad's viability because it's already been said and will continue to be pointed out as this thread goes on. I would like to bring up something that a couple posts have mentioned but not totally delved into - Dracovish's underrated bulk.

First, I strongly believe CB is vish's best set. Obviously that partly depends on team composition, but I think more often that not, the CB is much much harder for an opposing team to deal with, especially with the strong presence of balance builds running around and vish's adequate speed tier. CB Vish should also be adamant, so with 252 speed EVs you're sitting pretty at 249.

Here are a list of the 15 OU pokemon that outspeed an adamant Dracovish with their most common set(s):
Cinderace, Dragapult, Excadrill, Gengar, Hawlucha, Hydreigon, Jirachi, Keldeo, Kyurem, Mew, Mimikyu, Terrakion, Togekiss, Rotom-H, Zeraora

Of these mons, only 7 can OHKO a full health vish: Dragapult (Draco Meteor, Dragon Darts), Gengar (Specs Sludge Wave, 18.8% roll), Hydreigon (Draco), Kyurem (Draco, Freeze Dry), Mimikyu (LO Play Rough), Terrakion (Band CC), and Togekiss (Dazzling Gleam)

This means that healthy vish can stay in on any other mon in OU without fear of OHKO. It can stay in on Zera's plasma fists, Exca's EQ, etc. Not only that, but CB vish can actually OHKO most of those pokemon back. Cinderace, Excadrill, Hawlucha, Rotom, and Zeraora all drop to Fishious Rend going LAST. Gengar locked into Shadow Ball drops. Terrakion without CB drops. Togekiss, assuming it doesn't flinch, drops. In a pinch, vish can stay in on every pokemon but Dragapult, Gengar, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Mimikyu, CB Terrakion, and Gleam Toge. 4 of these are checked by Clefable (1st in usage atm) , and the other 3 are checked by Toxapex (3rd in usage atm). Going first is absolutely not the be all end all.

What this demonstrates is that beyond the argument for a lack of defensive checks to Dracovish, which is absolutely valid, I honestly believe there are also far too few OFFENSIVE checks to Dracovish. It's much too easy for vish to stay in on a mon that outspeeds it, eat a hit, net a KO with unboosted Rend, and then absolutely punish a team without remaining speed control. If current balance teams are made up of 3-4 "fat mons" (Clef/Pex/Toad/Steel Bird/Ferro/Hippo) and 2-3 offensive breakers/set up mons/sweepers, there is incredibly little offensive pressure to stop CB vish from staying in and picking up multiple KOs in a game, especially considering that when partnered with the 1st and 3rd highest mons in OU usage, it can always pivot out to a check. The ratio of pokemon that Dracovish can OHKO or very nearly OHKO compared to the pokemon that can OHKO Dracovish is severly imbalanced. Ban this guy.

A lot of this can be viewed as simplification of team comp, standard game play, and standard sets, and I'm aware of this - so please don't nitpick with random goofy sets or teams that don't fit the argument, that's not the point. This also isn't a holistic argument for the ban, just another angle that I think deserved attention.

 

[Chatot4444]

The main argument against Dracovish is that it limits teambuilding, however this is blatantly not true. Swsh is the first meta with a limited pool of pokemon, meaning that there are naturally going to be fewer options available to any team. This means that any pokemon is going to have fewer counters than in previous gens, making powerful pokemon feel like a bigger problem than they actually are. Banning Dracovish will not solve the problem, but will further limit the pool of pokemon. The pokemon that Dracovish "forces" you to use in teambuilding are by and large pokemon that are ubiquitous in their roles and have to be considered for teambuilding regardless of their matchup against Dracovish. The defensive checks Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the two best walls in the game. The offensive checks Dragapult and Zeraora are the fastest attackers in the tier (only out-sped by Ninjask and Accelgor) with attack to back up that speed. Dracovish hasn't centralized these pokemon in the meta, they are just the best at what they do. Seismatoad's usage is definitely inflated by Dracovish, but it is by no means a bad pokemon, with great typing and access to stealth rocks and knock off. Furthermore, hard counters such as Seismatoad are not at all necessary to beat Dracovish, as checks such as the above are more than enough to beat Dracovish. The one-dimensional nature of Dracovish makes it very easy to predict, meaning skilled players can easily neutralize the threat it poses. While Dracovish has incredible power, this power is dependent on it's (unimpressive) speed. Speed control such as paralysis, sticky webs, or knock off can stop Dracovish in it's tracks. Dracovish is certainly a fearsome threat, but it is not over-centralizing. The only solution is to adapt to the challenges posed by the meta and learn to overcome them. Therefore I think Dracovish should not be banned.

 

[DragonsDreams]

The main argument against Dracovish is that it limits teambuilding, however this is blatantly not true. Swsh is the first meta with a limited pool of pokemon, meaning that there are naturally going to be fewer options available to any team. This means that any pokemon is going to have fewer counters than in previous gens, making powerful pokemon feel like a bigger problem than they actually are. Banning Dracovish will not solve the problem, but will further limit the pool of pokemon. The pokemon that Dracovish "forces" you to use in teambuilding are by and large pokemon that are ubiquitous in their roles and have to be considered for teambuilding regardless of their matchup against Dracovish. The defensive checks Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the two best walls in the game. The offensive checks Dragapult and Zeraora are the fastest attackers in the tier (only out-sped by Ninjask and Accelgor) with attack to back up that speed. Dracovish hasn't centralized these pokemon in the meta, they are just the best at what they do. Seismatoad's usage is definitely inflated by Dracovish, but it is by no means a bad pokemon, with great typing and access to stealth rocks and knock off. Furthermore, hard counters such as Seismatoad are not at all necessary to beat Dracovish, as checks such as the above are more than enough to beat Dracovish. The one-dimensional nature of Dracovish makes it very easy to predict, meaning skilled players can easily neutralize the threat it poses. While Dracovish has incredible power, this power is dependent on it's (unimpressive) speed. Speed control such as paralysis, sticky webs, or knock off can stop Dracovish in it's tracks. Dracovish is certainly a fearsome threat, but it is not over-centralizing. The only solution is to adapt to the challenges posed by the meta and learn to overcome them. Therefore I think Dracovish should not be banned.

Dracovish is 100 percent over-centralizing I understand we lack several pokemon due to dexit. But it doesn't lessen the impact it has over the meta. You mention serval pokemon that beat Dracovish in most situations. But that isn't the argument no matter the pokemon it can be beaten and outplayed. Its the fact if you run certain mons you will be destroyed by rend. I think by banning draco teams will become more unique and actually fun not just toads on every single team.

 

[Chatot4444]

Its the fact if you run certain mons you will be destroyed by rend.

Then don't run those mons. Not every pokemon is going to shine in OU. That's why we have other tiers.

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

The main argument against Dracovish is that it limits teambuilding, however this is blatantly not true. Swsh is the first meta with a limited pool of pokemon, meaning that there are naturally going to be fewer options available to any team. This means that any pokemon is going to have fewer counters than in previous gens, making powerful pokemon feel like a bigger problem than they actually are. Banning Dracovish will not solve the problem, but will further limit the pool of pokemon. The pokemon that Dracovish "forces" you to use in teambuilding are by and large pokemon that are ubiquitous in their roles and have to be considered for teambuilding regardless of their matchup against Dracovish. The defensive checks Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the two best walls in the game. The offensive checks Dragapult and Zeraora are the fastest attackers in the tier (only out-sped by Ninjask and Accelgor) with attack to back up that speed. Dracovish hasn't centralized these pokemon in the meta, they are just the best at what they do. Seismatoad's usage is definitely inflated by Dracovish, but it is by no means a bad pokemon, with great typing and access to stealth rocks and knock off. Furthermore, hard counters such as Seismatoad are not at all necessary to beat Dracovish, as checks such as the above are more than enough to beat Dracovish. The one-dimensional nature of Dracovish makes it very easy to predict, meaning skilled players can easily neutralize the threat it poses. While Dracovish has incredible power, this power is dependent on it's (unimpressive) speed. Speed control such as paralysis, sticky webs, or knock off can stop Dracovish in it's tracks. Dracovish is certainly a fearsome threat, but it is not over-centralizing. The only solution is to adapt to the challenges posed by the meta and learn to overcome them. Therefore I think Dracovish should not be banned.

1. Zeraora is not a Dracovish check, banded Dracovish eats a hit and OHKOs
2. Ferrothorn is not a reliable Dracovish check, any prior chip and rocks means it can not reliably handle banded Dracovish
3. Toxapex struggles with Banded Dracovish despite being one of the "better" responses.

 

[Chatot4444]

1. Zeraora is not a Dracovish check, banded Dracovish eats a hit and OHKOs
2. Ferrothorn is not a reliable Dracovish check, any prior chip and rocks means it can not reliably handle banded Dracovish
3. Toxapex struggles with Banded Dracovish despite being one of the "better" responses.

1. Knock off prevents the OHKO, Expert belt play rough is 68.8-100% chance to KO depending on the knock off damage roll.
2. Knock off and leech seed severely limit Dracovish's damage output, thunder wave even more so
3. Baneful bunker walls band Dracovish, but even without that Dracovish only has 10% to 2HKO, allowing toxapex to toxic and recover
And furthermore these are all assuming Band Dracovish, which is frankly the worse set. Without the extra speed from scarf it can be easily outsped and dealt with, either with status, knock off, or just KOing it outright

 

[Fabi_ODST]

Then don't run those mons. Not every pokemon is going to shine in OU. That's why we have other tiers.

Involving other tiers is not a valid argument, honestly. Even if we open the gates to nat dex, fish gains like, 2 or 3 checks at best. And those have to be heavily specialiced in order to deal with fish (reducing versatility in the end)

1. Knock off prevents the OHKO, Expert belt play rough is 68.8-100% chance to KO depending on the knock off damage roll.
2. Knock off and leech seed severely limit Dracovish's damage output, thunder wave even more so
3. Baneful bunker walls band Dracovish, but even without that Dracovish only has 10% to 2HKO, allowing toxapex to toxic and recover
And furthermore these are all assuming Band Dracovish, which is frankly the worse set. Without the extra speed from scarf it can be easily outsped and dealt with, either with status, knock off, or just KOing it outright

1. Zereaora is not gonna switch into fishious rend, and you are asuming the zeraora is at full health, wich rarely happens because most zeraoras are using life orb (expert belt is not a good item as most mons can switch into zeraora coverage)
2. That is, if the vish decides to stay into a ferrothorn, wich will only happen if the ferro is in ko range
3. Baneful bunker is only ran due to dracovish, as it leaves pex open to set up sweppers (it needs scald, toxic bunker and recover, so it can't run haze). Also, rocks makes that a guaranteed 2HKO

We can theorycraft all day, but at the end of the day fish forces a certain playstyle and certain mons that is not healthy for the metagame. Forcing everyone into the same mons over and over again is NOT a healthy metagame. Having basically just 2 playstyles being viable (balance and offense) is not healthy (this is coming from someone that hates stall to the core)

 

[Finchinator]

Zeraora is not a check or counter to Dracovish. It can come in and revenge kill a weakened Dracovish, but this is the only time you can rely on it.

The main argument against Dracovish is that it limits teambuilding, however this is blatantly not true. Swsh is the first meta with a limited pool of pokemon, meaning that there are naturally going to be fewer options available to any team.

The second sentence misses the point that users citing the first sentence as a pro-ban argument are trying to make entirely. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Banning Dracovish will not solve the problem, but will further limit the pool of pokemon.

By this logic, we should ignore normal conventions of potential brokenness and simply allow everything. The practical applications of making an argument such as this and ignoring actual tiering logic are awful.

The pokemon that Dracovish "forces" you to use in teambuilding are by and large pokemon that are ubiquitous in their roles and have to be considered for teambuilding regardless of their matchup against Dracovish. The defensive checks Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the two best walls in the game. The offensive checks Dragapult and Zeraora are the fastest attackers in the tier (only out-sped by Ninjask and Accelgor) with attack to back up that speed. Dracovish hasn't centralized these pokemon in the meta, they are just the best at what they do. Seismatoad's usage is definitely inflated by Dracovish, but it is by no means a bad pokemon, with great typing and access to stealth rocks and knock off. Furthermore, hard counters such as Seismatoad are not at all necessary to beat Dracovish, as checks such as the above are more than enough to beat Dracovish. The one-dimensional nature of Dracovish makes it very easy to predict, meaning skilled players can easily neutralize the threat it poses. While Dracovish has incredible power, this power is dependent on it's (unimpressive) speed. Speed control such as paralysis, sticky webs, or knock off can stop Dracovish in it's tracks. Dracovish is certainly a fearsome threat, but it is not over-centralizing. The only solution is to adapt to the challenges posed by the meta and learn to overcome them. Therefore I think Dracovish should not be banned.

Toxapex and Ferrothorn would have a lot more freedom to run SDef sets, different moves, etc., which you ignore. Seismitoad is the big one, yea. But above this, being able to run teams without one of these small pool of Pokemon is the big thing that you entirely gloss over.

Your post really isn't anti-ban on Dracovish so much as it is oddly preservationist for any Pokemon in order to increase the viable pool of Pokemon allowed, which honestly is not how we look at things and has no place in this thread. The few potentially valid points you do include ignore crucial details or the actual underlying points of the other side in order to try to reach your own conclusions that are simply faulty or incomplete because of this.

 

[theotherguytm]

Hi it's me, the guy everyone now thinks of as 'the Giga Drain Trapinch guy' (even though I share credit for that). Basically, for those who don't know, I and tmacbalanced came up with a way to trap Toad, and basically proved Vish is so busted you can play 5v6 for most of a game and it will carry you if the opponent lacks answers.
I think everything that needed to be said about Dracovish has been said, pretty much.
Apart from Vish's offense matchup.

Any half-good HO player will tell you how annoying Scarf Vish is for unprepared HO. You can't afford to slow your team down running Toad or some other passive garbage, so you just have to accept that Vish is claiming a kill every time it comes in safely. And then revenge killing is restricted to Dragapult and only Dragapult, so Dragon Dance Pult finds itself thrust centrestage in order to try and deal with it. It can't set up on it unless Vish is locked into Rend:
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Dracovish Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 282-334 (88.9 - 105.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dracovish Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 422-500 (133.1 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (keep in mind spamming Outrage is also a great option against any HO without Togekiss)
So all it can do is revenge kill and hope.

The other option for offence is to use Cloyster and its 180 base Def+Water resist to set up on it. Ever wonder why every other HO team runs these mons? Now you don't. Scarf Vish just invalidates so many HOs, and even when prepped for it teams have to sac something every time it comes in.
Or you can always run your own Dracovish. Having to use a mon to check itself... Isn't that the definition of an overcentralising mon?
(And even then: 252+ Atk Dracovish Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dracovish: 336-396 (104.3 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO yay speed tie to decide game.)

And just to prove to the doubters that there isn't some miracle strat the top players use to deal with Vish that makes it totally fine:
☆STARRY: bro
☆STARRY: the f*** do i do vs the fish
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-478262

HAIL LORD VISH.

 

[peter97]

Hi. I am here only because, out of boredom, I started to wonder if countering consistently Dracovish would have been possible in the past generations, assuming the existence of dracovish, strong jaw and fishious rend.

So I started to look through the various possibilities in each generation, seventh and below.

The result of my research is that in 3rd gen, at last, Dracovish would be successfully countered because:
- Water moves were special
- Choice scarf didn't exist (but its existence wouldn't change a lot the situation because a lot of counters to Dracovish would benefit from it)

Blissey (Uber special wall on smogon) could easily switch in taking about 30% from fishious rend and stall Dracovish with toxic and soft-boiled.
Salamence (MixMence on smogon) could switch in taking about 65% from fishious rend and then murder him with outrage.
Kingdra could easily take care of him.
Ludicolo could easily stall him.
Mantine of course.
Lapras of course.

BUT

Still Dracovish would 3HKO offensive Regice, 2HKO Dusclops, 2HKO Articuno, 3HKO specially defensive Registeel, 3HKO Snorlax and destroy almost every pokemon not resisting his fishious rend. And all of this with a 70 base special attack. PURE MADNESS in my opinion. But at least there would have been some consistent answers.

I know that my contribution isn't all that usefull, but I hope it can help to realize the various problems that presents Dracovish wich all have been very well explained in the previous posts (overcentralizing, lack of consistent answers, specific teambuilding and so on). All in all, I think that the combination of Dracovish and Fishious rend should be banned.

 

[McCoolDude]

I keep seeing mentions of Dracovish's speed tier as though it were truly holding it back.

Banded adamant dracovish outspeeds (using their suggested sets and disregarding priority/boosts. Also I counted this from my phone so I hope I didn't fudge a number here or there):

2/3 S-tier mons.
11/22 A-tier mons (excluding dracovish itself. Honorable mention for bisharp's sucker punch, because even going first using priority, bisharp is OHKO'd 80% of the time without any chip or hazard damage.)
10/22 - B-tier mons (Honorable mention for Grimmsnarl, who can move first and set reflect, allowing it to live. The threat of twave also prevents Vish from trying this)
13/33 C-tier mons with 2 speed ties (honorable mentions for ludicolo and mantine, whose Swift swim sets outspeed in rain).

Scarf adamant Dracovish is outsped by 2 A-tier mons and 2 C-tier mons without a scarf. We can probably mention hydregion and Excadrill as other possible A-tiers that run scarf often enough for it to be relevant.

Can we all please stop pretending as though there aren't plenty of things banded Dracovish outspeeds and gets a doubled fisheous rend against? 75 base speed might be hellaciously slow in NatDex, but in OU it's more than fast enough for Dracovish to wallbreak.

 

[Spoontech]

The main argument against Dracovish is that it limits teambuilding, however this is blatantly not true. Swsh is the first meta with a limited pool of pokemon, meaning that there are naturally going to be fewer options available to any team. This means that any pokemon is going to have fewer counters than in previous gens, making powerful pokemon feel like a bigger problem than they actually are. Banning Dracovish will not solve the problem, but will further limit the pool of pokemon. The pokemon that Dracovish "forces" you to use in teambuilding are by and large pokemon that are ubiquitous in their roles and have to be considered for teambuilding regardless of their matchup against Dracovish. The defensive checks Ferrothorn and Toxapex are the two best walls in the game. The offensive checks Dragapult and Zeraora are the fastest attackers in the tier (only out-sped by Ninjask and Accelgor) with attack to back up that speed. Dracovish hasn't centralized these pokemon in the meta, they are just the best at what they do. Seismatoad's usage is definitely inflated by Dracovish, but it is by no means a bad pokemon, with great typing and access to stealth rocks and knock off. Furthermore, hard counters such as Seismatoad are not at all necessary to beat Dracovish, as checks such as the above are more than enough to beat Dracovish. The one-dimensional nature of Dracovish makes it very easy to predict, meaning skilled players can easily neutralize the threat it poses. While Dracovish has incredible power, this power is dependent on it's (unimpressive) speed. Speed control such as paralysis, sticky webs, or knock off can stop Dracovish in it's tracks. Dracovish is certainly a fearsome threat, but it is not over-centralizing. The only solution is to adapt to the challenges posed by the meta and learn to overcome them. Therefore I think Dracovish should not be banned.

Gen 4/5 didn't really have this problem.

Have fun constantly having to sac a mon just to bring out something that scares Vish to switch to a U-turner, just for the circle to repeat.

 

[Magicxgame]

Once again, I see that people are jumping to conclusions about the flavor of the month mon.

Looking at the viability list, there are multiple Water resists/immunities in A+ alone that you can easily slot onto a team (Dragapult, Ferrothorn, Hydreigon, Kommo-o, Seismitoad, and Toxapex). Sure, some are weak to Outrage, but if you manage to lure it into Outrage then you've already come a long way in dealing with it. Scarf versions can be scary, but sitting at a crappy Speed tier of 75 still means that you're outsped by Zeraora and Dragapult, two A+ threats in the metagame. Want a Band? Then you're pretty much outsped by a ton of shit, making it no different from other scary CBers we've had in the past; if we lived through stuff like CB Kartana, then you can pretty much live through Fishious Rend.

Having to prepare Water resists on your team is a poor reason for banning Dracovish, especially since Water-types have been prevalent in Pokemon from the beginning.

In short, calm down and prepare Water resists on your teams. But I see most of you have already made up your mind, so I expect this post to be dogpiled with claims about how X isn't really a check due to some silly reason.

 

[Tapeworm]

In short, calm down and prepare Water resists on your teams. But I see most of you have already made up your mind, so I expect this post to be dogpiled with claims about how X isn't really a check due to some silly reason.

What a hand-wavy way to dismiss the issue with absolutely no substance at all. 'some silly reason'? Just read through the posts, man, look at the calcs, they are not 'some silly reasons' they're very legitimate. Hydra and Pult are dong examples as being answers to Fish, they're not even checks; try switching them in against it and see what happens, it won't end well for you. Fishes actual checks are also very easily capable of being worn down and many of them, like Ferro, Toad, and Kommo-o lack reliable recovery. The way Fish can easily blow through teams when these are removed or weakened also means that you need to play incredibly cautiously with them to minimise the damage they take throughout the match, which basically means playing a mon down the whole game just to not be swept unless you pack multiple of these on one team which should absolutely not be mandatory just to not lose or be severely restricted. Building a counter team to Fish which is not great vs any other team or playing uphill the whole game when you run into one because you don't have several things to answer it and having to tread on eggshells are not a pair of healthy options to choose from. I hope you'll consider this and everyone else's posts which explain all of this in more detail here before making a substanceless blanket statement and brushing off any dispute.

 

[theotherguytm]

Dragapult

Cannot switch in.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 337-397 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ferrothorn

Gets worn down over games, loses to Band/rain. Probably its best non-immune check if it wasn't for the fact it has no recovery. God help you if Spikes get up too.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 158-186 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Hydreigon

Also can't switch in, gets outsped by Scarf so not even a check.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 291-342 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kommo-o

Loses very badly, being slower than Band Vish and having no recovery. Also does nothing back to it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o: 170-201 (48 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Seismitoad

See entire rest of thread. TLDR: Having to run this mon on literally every team is not balanced, and you often lose to Vish anyway because this thing lacks recovery.

Toxapex

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 141-167 (46.3 - 54.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Has to run Bunker to not just die to Rend. Also:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
So for most of these mons to have a chance vs Dracovish you have to sac something so they can come in safely. Vish is busted because unless you run an immunity explicitly for it you will just lose a good proportion of the time. And then there's rain.
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kommo-o in Rain: 255-301 (72 - 85%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 212-250 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
So kids, what have we learnt today? Fishious Rend pretty much ignores the type chart. Lesson learnt? Good.

 

[Bakugames]

there are multiple Water resists/immunities in A+ alone that you can easily slot onto a team (Dragapult, Ferrothorn, Hydreigon, Kommo-o, Seismitoad, and Toxapex).

But like, that's the point of the suspect, no? So many of these pokemon are running specific sets that are often overall worse (not always, but yknow) just so they can brace vish.
I'm not gonna spam calcs everyone and their mother posted on this thread, but many already pointed out that some of these can even be forced thru by the vish player with good play and get a pretty big advantage later game.
Sure, the dragons are pretty good at revenge killing vish (they arent good at switching on it), but they also just let clefable in, which seems to be a pretty common partner to vish. Most are also scared of chip damage if they keep switching in and out to scare vish
Toad is prone to chip and lack of recovery outside of predicting a fishious rend. Pex and ferro can be broken thru force, and while vish might die in the process some, it'll have opened up the path for its teammates to blow up on the foe.

Want a Band? Then you're pretty much outsped by a ton of shit

This isnt gen 7 anymore, the speed creep of this gen is overall way lower and dracovish CAN outspeed a lot of the metagame. And the pokemon it cant outspeed most often than not cant even switch on it.
This was talked before too, but vish has decent bulk. Sure if these things appear on field it wont ohko them, but its not going to be ohko'd without a s.e hit either.

This also ignores the vish player can ofter just... Switch too. Just the fact vish is on the team can improve someones match with the pressure of keeping vish "checks" alive for long enough. It let's vish teammates pick up the pace until vish can just mow thru a more weakened team.

Sorry if this sucks I'm really bad at writing them