STAB STABmons

Note that the reintroduction of various Pokémon allows their exclusive moves, that previously could not be selected, to be usable in battle.
New moves, italics denotes moves that are new altogether:

Normal
Conversion, Conversion2, Milk Drink, Head Charge, Terrain Pulse

Fighting
Coaching

Flying
Dual Wingbeat

Bug
Skitter Smack

Rock
Meteor Beam

Ground
Bonemerang, Shore Up, Scorching Sands

Ghost
Shadow Bone, Poltergeist

Poison
Shell Side Arm, Corrosive Gas

Steel
Steel Roller

Water
Flip Turn, Surging Strikes

Fire
Fiery Dance, Burning Jealousy

Grass
Jungle Healing, Grassy Glide

Electric
Rising Voltage

Ice
Triple Axel

Psychic
Kinesis, Expanding Force

Dragon
Dragon Hammer, Scale Shot

Dark
Lash Out, Wicked Blow

Fairy
Floral Healing, Fleur Cannon, Misty Explosion
 
After spending the last half an hour trying to see what could be cool with the new toys, I've compiled the ones I thought deserved a shout below. I'll also share my opinion on the problematic stuff drampa mentioned.

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Aqua Jet / Superpower
- Sucker Punch
- Wicked Blow

Crawdaunt @ Black Glasses
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Crabhammer
- Dragon Dance / Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch / Aqua Jet

Crawdaunt seems to be one of the biggest winners with the DLC, gaining a bunch of cool moves that make it even more unpredictable and much more threatening.



Sharpedo @ Choice Band / Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wicked Blow
- Surging Strikes
- Close Combat / Protect
- Earthquake / Protect

Pretty self-explanatory, just Sharpedo doing Sharpedo things and abusing the new moves.


Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Mild Nature
- Shell Side Arm
- Clanging Scales
- Clangorous Soul
- Scale Shot

Fairly certain this isn't the optimal set to run but Shell Side Arm Dragalge hits reaally hard and this is the set I think is most fun to run.


Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Glare
- Soft-Boiled
- Transform
- Teleport

Glare + Transform seems pretty fun to try out.


Ninetales-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Misty Explosion
- Freeze-Dry / Encore
- Nasty Plot / Encore

Misty Explosion seemed really useless until I realized Ninetales-Alola can use it really well to setup Aurora Veil and be much harder to deal with as it can now not only block Defoggers like Corviknight but also just straight up chunk them.


Slowbro @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Psystrike

Just a very nice defensive option if you're in need of a special wall that isn't Chansey.


Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scorching Sands / Scald
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Knock Off / Toxic / Flip Turn

Huuuuuge buff this guy got. Problem is picking what moves you wanna use.


Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Corrosive Gas
- Strength Sap
- Shell Side Arm

Another good Regenerator user just updated with the latest techs.

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- King's Shield

Magearna @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Flash Cannon
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind


Rillaboom @ Choice Band
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Grassy Glide
- U-turn
- Earthquake / Knock Off / Superpower


Scyther @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- U-turn
- Thief
- Fell Stinger


Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- Dual Wingbeat
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn


Lilligant (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Apple Acid
- Strength Sap
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder


Clawitzer @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Terrain Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Dragon Pulse
- Water Pulse


Keldeo @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Water Spout
- Flip Turn
- Secret Sword
- Water Shuriken / Hydro Pump


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Teleport


Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Flip Turn
- Toxic
- Recover
- Haze

Let's be clear here, while Shell Side Arm is a great move on itself it isn't busted by any means and Gengar is what really pushes it over the line. It already had no switchins pre-DLC and with this drop it gets the tools to bypass the new special walls as well. It has the broken NP set that has no counters and then still has the option of running some of the other unpredictable options such as Specs Hex, Baneful Bunker, Will-o-wisp...
It is, in my opinion, deserving of a quickban.

Porygon-Z is too good and too versatile. Not as good as Gengar by any means but has the ability to take over any game with one of its many great sets. Losing Z-Conversion does hurt it a bit but it's still only really walled by Chansey and strains building quite a bit even when you're only considering Scarfed or Specs sets.
I think a quickban is the most appropriate measure but a suspect isn't a terrible idea, although it's very likely it will get banned regardless and the time could be used focusing on Wicked Blow or other things we haven't seen yet.
V-Create lost a lot of value with the new set. Its most popular answers all got buffed in meaningful ways such as Tyranitar and Hippowdon getting Shore Up, Toxapex getting Flip turn, Seismitoad getting everything it ever wanted, Slowbro... It should be kept an eye on but it's not nearly as relevant as the other issues.
Ideally, with both PZ and Gengar banned this would be the only thing on the watchlist as it is a very very strong move but we'll still have to see what will be the faeries roles (especially looking at Magearna) but it's likely to be deemed as problematic down the line.

And congratz vivalospride on the council spot!
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
1592775021573.gif

Quickban Update #8
The STABmons council has decided to quickban Gengar! Gengar had been on the council’s radar from before DLC due to its Nasty Plot, Substitute, and Choice Specs sets each having very limited counterplay, and it has proven to be just as if not more of an issue now, and as a result it has unanimously been quickbanned.

This is the first of many things we plan to vote on in the very near future, so expect updates soon!

Tagging The Immortal and Kris.
 
Ive been using Type: Null for a while to pretty great success.
Now, with the addition of the Urshifu moves, it's ability makes it so much more viable, basically countering the sniper strikers of Kingdra and Drapion.
Not to mention that the addition of Wicked Blow makes dark types less likely to run Knock Off, also makes him much more viable.

*muffled scream* (Type: Null) @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Roar
- Rapid Spin / Court Change / Heal Bell
- Slack Off / Wish

This is a mixed wall, basically you can switch into any attack besides powerful fighting moves and recover your health.

Boomburst does a surprising amount of damage. I prefer special over physical because it weakens Strength Sap and not affected by burns.
Roar is to stop any setup mons, trappers and ghost types.

This mon won by himself way more than it should have.
 

Don Vascus

Certified Wednesday Poster
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Probably too late, but Shell Side Arm works like Photon Geiser, as in it becomes a physical move depending on the user's highest attack stat

In other words, is worse than Sludge Wave, and a Gengar Shell Side Arm does less than a Focus Blast to, say, Blissey.

And if it did attack Blissey's lower physical defence, it would come from Gengar's weak attack stat

tl,dr Gengar actually didn't get any new toys in the dlc,
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
With Gengar's ban everyone has been scrambling to find stuff to replace it. Perhaps the most obvious choice, yet overlooked as silly is...

:ss/haunter:
Haunter has the same excellent dual STAB as Gengar coming off of 115 Special Attack, only 15 points lower than Gengar's. It has a much better ability in Levitate (RIP LeviGar) which when combined with its typing leads to it being able to hardwall Pokémon such as Hippowdon and Mudsdale that rely on Body Press + Earthquake. If it uses Taunt it also walls Chansey, allowing it to chip away at the blob.

It's not all spoopy for Haunter though, it loses out on quite a bit compared to its evolved form. The Speed tiers between 95 and 110 are notoriously crowded, including threats such as Urshifu, the Swords of Justice, Porygon-Z, and many, many more. Haunter is much less effective against offensive Pokemon than Gengar was because of this, and mostly sticks to pressuring switchins.
Haunter's movepool is also missing a couple key moves from Gengar's: Focus Blast and Nasty Plot. The lack of Focus Blast means Tyranitar is a hard counter to every Haunter set possible, although the possibility of burn exists to threaten it I guess. No Nasty Plot makes Haunter less of a potential sweeping threat in every matchup, although, as I talk about below, Acid Spray can replicate it to a degree.

Haunter @ Life Orb / Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Acid Spray
- Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
- Taunt / Substitute

Moongeist Beam is mandatory; it's the best special Ghost STAB.
Acid Spray is very important for Haunter as it's primarily a Balance / BO breaker and Acid Spray lets it break down the SpD of threats such as Chansey to KO them, while also easing prediction and forcing switches. It acts as a pseudo Nasty Plot, although much worse in that it can be switched out on and does nothing to Steel types or mons immune to stat drops.
Sludge Wave / Bomb are the best available Poison STABs given that Shell Side Arm was a dud. Sludge Bomb is probably overall better unless you'd prefer not to Poison (on paraspam or if you're spreading burn or w/e) as Bulletproof is pretty much nonexistent right now.
Taunt lets you prevent defensive Pokémon from recovering or statusing you. Taunt stuff. It's especially helpful versus Chansey, which only runs Normal and Fighting non-status moves. Sub can be used to protect yourself from Status as well and to get in hits versus more offensive mons, but costs HP, mandating Black Sludge, and lets Chansey recover on you making it tough to break.

Eviolite isn't run because Haunter won't tank anything while chip damage can hurt it, especially with Sub.

Set #2! Totally unrelated :]
:ss/porygon-z:
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Terrain Pulse
- Ice Beam / Psychic
- Teleport / Trick

This set is run with Rillaboom. It's designed to do one thing that normal specs PZ can't:

252 SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Terrain Pulse (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 210-248 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery

RIP Tyranitar, formerly the best counter to Porygon-Z
 
Hi please ban pz as top priority

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1137766025 - pz 2hkos chansey and can ohko 5/6 mons
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1137787155 - pz weakens ttar and can ohko 5/6 mons

I think theres a single digit number of viable mons that dont get OHKOd by boomburst let alone 2HKOd (including soundproofs/ghosts). The literal only mon that avoids a 2hko is Tyranitar and that's forced to recover (giving pz user a free turn) or it dies the next time. Ttar isnt good counterplay (easily abused just like why corv isnt a good aaa noivern check) so you probably need soundproof and even then kommoo takes 90 from tri attack. Replays speak for themselves, idk if any suspected/qb'd mon has been anywhere close to this
 
Ok, so Shell Side Arm doesn’t not work like the move version of Download, and acts like a slightly different version of Photon Geyser.
Instead of just just choosing between which offensive stat is higher on the user, it calculates this equation: ((((2 * the user's level / 5 + 2) * 90 * X) / Y) / 50) simplified: ((3,780 * X)/Y)/50
This equation inputs your Atk after stat stages for X and the target’s Def after stat stages, and then the move compares the value of outputted to the same equation but with SpA and SpD respectively.

What you need to know;
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the special side, ignoring burns, abilities (besides Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat? Need more clarification), and items, it will be a special move
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the physical side, ignoring burns, abilities (same as before), and items, it will be a physical move
-If its physical, it will be a contact move
-It’s not like how Photon Geyser can become a pseudo physical Psyshock
-This does however mean that the move will be doing the most amount of damage it can if you can avoid being burned or fighting against damage reducing abilities

This can be a good thing or a bad thing.
If you’re a Pokemon with the ability Tough Claws with 299 Atk and 212 SpA, and you come across a Pokemon with 299 Def and 200 SpD
The calculation would give a 75.6 value for Atk and 80.136 value for SpA, which means that SSA will do Special Damage, which means that you are actually doing less damage since Tough Claws would be boosting your SSA if it were Physical.

If you don’t use an ability like Tough Claw, or an item like Choice Specs, and also do not get burned, this move is a benefit as sometimes a physical move will be doing more damage.
 
Ok, so Shell Side Arm doesn’t not work like the move version of Download, and acts like a slightly different version of Photon Geyser.
Instead of just just choosing between which offensive stat is higher on the user, it calculates this equation: ((((2 * the user's level / 5 + 2) * 90 * X) / Y) / 50) simplified: ((3,780 * X)/Y)/50
This equation inputs your Atk after stat stages for X and the target’s Def after stat stages, and then the move compares the value of outputted to the same equation but with SpA and SpD respectively.

What you need to know;
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the special side, ignoring burns, abilities (besides Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat? Need more clarification), and items, it will be a special move
-If your Pokemon would do more damage on the physical side, ignoring burns, abilities (same as before), and items, it will be a physical move
-If its physical, it will be a contact move
-It’s not like how Photon Geyser can become a pseudo physical Psyshock
-This does however mean that the move will be doing the most amount of damage it can if you can avoid being burned or fighting against damage reducing abilities

This can be a good thing or a bad thing.
If you’re a Pokemon with the ability Tough Claws with 299 Atk and 212 SpA, and you come across a Pokemon with 299 Def and 200 SpD
The calculation would give a 75.6 value for Atk and 80.136 value for SpA, which means that SSA will do Special Damage, which means that you are actually doing less damage since Tough Claws would be boosting your SSA if it were Physical.

If you don’t use an ability like Tough Claw, or an item like Choice Specs, and also do not get burned, this move is a benefit as sometimes a physical move will be doing more damage.
So is there a good user of this move?
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
:porygon-z::ss/porygon-z::porygon-z:
Quickban Update #9
Porygon-Z has been quickbanned by a unanimous council vote. Because of the absurd power of Boomburst backed by Adaptability or a Download boost Porygon-Z is nigh impossible to wall. Even the mighty Chansey is 2HKO'd by Choice Specs Adaptability Boomburst after chip from Stealth Rock, Sand, or other sources. Porygon-Z's expansive movepool gives it coverage options for all potential walls, and it can set up with Nasty Plot or Agility. However the nuke that is Boomburst which OHKOs the vast majority of the metagame and 2HKOs everything else that isn't immune to it is the main reason for this ban.

:bw/porygon-z:
Some replays of Porygon-Z in action:
aesf v 1vjcbyron - Porygon-Z 2HKOs a Tyranitar with Boomburst while surviving a Sucker Punch

aesf v jrdn - Porygon-Z utilizes Nature Power to deal massive damage to a defensive Tyranitar then cleans up by pivoting into Porygon-Z repeatedly and spamming Boomburst.

aesf v betathunderr - Porygon-Z 2HKOs a Chansey in sand.

:dp/porygon-z:
Links to discussion of Porygon-Z

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8515058
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8514883
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8510815
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3656429/post-8509390

tagging The Immortal and Kris
 
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:Indeedee-F: :Alakazam:
A core I can see potential in is Teleport Indeedee-F and Alakazam (and also Teleport Indeedee being useful to pass Psychic Terrain to fast frail Pokemon)

Indeedee’s primary use obviously is to provide Psychic Terrain, giving Alakazam powered up Psychic Attacks, even more powered up Expanding Force, and of course an immunity to priority.
That’s the obvious part.
Another reason why Alakazam benefits from Indeedee (it honestly could be either but the Female form is bulkier) is that Indeedee can really force a Special Wall to come in with its own Expanding Force and Boomburst (and honestly shocked isn’t banned yet), then also has Mystical Fire to make sure what comes in to it isn’t a random Steel type. With Alakazam, you don’t care about non-Dark type Special Walls thanks to Psyshock and Nasty Plot.
Nasty Plot is also why I picked a teleport users and Psychic Terrain summoner too. Despite being both Psychic type special attackers, a lot of Pokemon that Indeedee can’t beat, Alakazam can and can also force switches thanks to its incredible Speed and offensive power.
Even if you find yourself in a scenario where an opponent predicts a Mystic Fire and goes to Zeraora or when a Dark type Scarfer comes in predicting Expanding Force, you can always Teleport/Switch to another even faster teammate or a defensive teammate that can wall them.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
WICKED BLOW HAS BEEN BANNED FROM STABMONS

Quickban Update #10

The council has voted to quickban Wicked Blow on non-native learners 4 Ban 0 No Ban 1 Abstain. Wicked Blow has proven a broken and centralizing wallbreaking tool on numerous strong Dark types over the past weeks in STABmons thanks to its excellent offensive type, effective base 120 BP, and immunity to certain types of defensive counterplay. Wicked Blow has vastly increased the offensive potential of already strong Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Krookodile, Incineroar, and Bisharp. Due to the varied coverage and secondary STAB most Dark resists cannot keep up with all of these at once, forcing many teams to double up. Non-Dark-resisting physical walls cannot handle the power of Wicked Blow from the majority of these abusers. Defensive Pokemon that rely on stat changes (E.G. Intimidate, Stamina, or Iron Defense) or Prankster cannot begin to wall Pokemon with Wicked Blow thanks to the autocrit bypassing the boosts and the immunity to Prankster from Dark type.

The abstain vote (drampa's grandpa AKA me) did not believe they had seen enough of Wicked Blow on non-Urshifu abusers to make a call either way for this vote.

This vote will NOT prevent Urshifu-Single-Strike from using Wicked Blow. While Urshifu-SS certainly still has the potential to be broken, and the council is looking into it, banning Wicked Blow completely (other than as a side effect of an Urshifu ban) will not be considered an acceptable solution.

tagging Kris and The Immortal

What's Next?
So far the bans we've made have been pretty obvious. Things that we were pretty sure how things would go from the first couple days after the DLC dropped, and just wanted to give it a little time to be sure. Past here it's a little more complicated.

Urshifu has been on our radar for a little while. This ban will undoubtedly change the meta in ways that will significantly effect it; will the lack of Dark types empower Urshifu through lack of competition and relatively fewer Dark-Type switchins being brought, or will it mourn the free switch-ins from the Dark moves being spammed too much? It's sort of hard to tell at this point. However it will undoubtedly remain an incredibly potent offensive force, so we will keep our eyes on it.

What we would like to see discussed more is Cinderace versus V-Create. I have seen arguments both saying that V-Create is broken sans Cinderace and that Cinderace is broken sans V-Create. It could be both of course, but we're not going to ban both at the same time. IF we were to ban one of these, as we are discussing, which should it be? This is not the first time we've brought this up, but please continue to give input.
 
Last edited:

in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Gonna submit a team for samples to try and spark resources up again some post-DLC
Alola Form
Short Description: This team was designed around Flip Turn Toxapex, which is a nice check to new threats that have recently popped up like Marowak-Alola, Azumarill, and Cinderace. I decided to forego Haze on Toxapex in place for Knock Off support, which can hinder Marowak-Alola and is just a solid move otherwise. Ferrothorn+Marowak-Alola finish of the FWG core, and both can alleviate Toxapex's weakness to electric types like Rotom-Heat and Zeraora. Glare Sylveon is a nice support option that outside of its normal Rapid Spin support, can paralyze opponents to reduce the offensive counterplay to the strong breakers on the team. Urshifu and Alakazam form a nice offensive core to finish the team off, with Urshifu often using its limited switchins to gain momentum for the rest of the team. Focus Sash Alakazam is an amazing option to have in a pinch, as you can stop offensive threats in their tracks, as well as set up more safely in a metagame with a lot of priority. Overall this team has been super solid and can be picked up easily by just about anyone and do well on the ladder or in roomtours, so try it out :)

Only have a couple replays because i was using /hidereplay wrong for like a week lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1151744523 vs Zeraora Bulky Offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1149851766 vs Bulky Offense
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8stabmons-1138883941 vs Balance
 
WICKED BLOW HAS BEEN BANNED FROM STABMONS

Quickban Update #10

The council has voted to quickban Wicked Blow on non-native learners 4 Ban 0 No Ban 1 Abstain. Wicked Blow has proven a broken and centralizing wallbreaking tool on numerous strong Dark types over the past weeks in STABmons thanks to its excellent offensive type, effective base 120 BP, and immunity to certain types of defensive counterplay. Wicked Blow has vastly increased the offensive potential of already strong Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Weavile, Crawdaunt, Krookodile, Incineroar, and Bisharp. Due to the varied coverage and secondary STAB most Dark resists cannot keep up with all of these at once, forcing many teams to double up. Non-Dark-resisting physical walls cannot handle the power of Wicked Blow from the majority of these abusers. Defensive Pokemon that rely on stat changes (E.G. Intimidate, Stamina, or Iron Defense) or Prankster cannot begin to wall Pokemon with Wicked Blow thanks to the autocrit bypassing the boosts and the immunity to Prankster from Dark type.

The abstain vote (drampa's grandpa AKA me) did not believe they had seen enough of Wicked Blow on non-Urshifu abusers to make a call either way for this vote.

This vote will NOT prevent Urshifu-Single-Strike from using Wicked Blow. While Urshifu-SS certainly still has the potential to be broken, and the council is looking into it, banning Wicked Blow completely (other than as a side effect of an Urshifu ban) will not be considered an acceptable solution.

tagging Kris and The Immortal

What's Next?
So far the bans we've made have been pretty obvious. Things that we were pretty sure how things would go from the first couple days after the DLC dropped, and just wanted to give it a little time to be sure. Past here it's a little more complicated.

Urshifu has been on our radar for a little while. This ban will undoubtedly change the meta in ways that will significantly effect it; will the lack of Dark types empower Urshifu through lack of competition and relatively fewer Dark-Type switchins being brought, or will it mourn the free switch-ins from the Dark moves being spammed too much? It's sort of hard to tell at this point. However it will undoubtedly remain an incredibly potent offensive force, so we will keep our eyes on it.

What we would like to see discussed more is Cinderace versus V-Create. I have seen arguments both saying that V-Create is broken sans Cinderace and that Cinderace is broken sans V-Create. It could be both of course, but we're not going to ban both at the same time. IF we were to ban one of these, as we are discussing, which should it be? This is not the first time we've brought this up, but please continue to give input.
V-Create should be banned, because it's not just Cinderace that abuses it.
Any fire-type with a decent attack can use it-
Alolawak, Coalossal, Flareon, Centiskorch, etc.
Not to mention that in a few months we're going to get more abusers, like Combusken, and V-create with Speed Boost sounds disgusting.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Check out the STABmons V-Create suspect!

COMPLETELY UNRELATED EVENT!
The first STABmons unofficial ladder tour is now open!

To sign up post in this thread saying IN and give us the name of the alt you will be using to ladder. The alt you use should have... let's see... how about VCS in it! :bloblul: The alt also needs to be a fresh one (made no earlier than 8/7/2020).

The top three contenders will automatically get reqs if they do not already have them and be enshrined in our Hall of Fame (to be made).
The winner will have the option of assisting the council with the re-creation of our viability rankings once the suspect has finished.

example:
Good: DramVCSpa
Bad: VDraCmpaS
 
Last edited:

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Check out the STABmons V-Create suspect!

COMPLETELY UNRELATED EVENT!
The first STABmons unofficial ladder tour is now open!

To sign up post in this thread saying IN and give us the name of the alt you will be using to ladder. The alt you use should have... let's see... how about VCS in it! :bloblul:

The top three contenders will automatically get reqs if they do not already have them and be enshrined in our Hall of Fame (to be made).
The winner will have the option of assisting the council with the re-creation of our viability rankings once the suspect has finished.

example:
Good: DramVCSpa
Bad: VDraCmpaS
In as AntiVCS

Might as well give my thoughts on the suspect while I'm here
V-Create is busted. The most broken abuser currently is Marowak-A, which has 0 switch-ins on most teams and frankly 0 reliable + viable switchins overall. Even Tyranitar loses unless it's running speedy Pdef. Cinderace also pushes the envelope with its incredible coverage capable of punishing resists and just nukes everything that doesn't resist. There's nothing subtle or difficult to quantify about V-Create honestly. It hits too damn hard. We've been discussing Cinderace a lot, but I think Marowak is what really pushes V-Create into clear banworthy territory.

Other abusers tend to strike me as good but not broken. Incineroar is by far the best and could have been considered busted when Wicked Blow was allowed, but not anymore imo. Flareon I mentioned but... it's really not that great. Mostly a Mage counter useful for its defensive utility. Skorch sets webs and rarely puts in much more work than that for me. Talonflame is saved from hitting like a wet paper towel by V-Create, but it's so weak naturally that even a 180 BP move won't make it hit hard without a boost, especially when holding Boots.

Darmanitan should NOT be part of the rationale for voting here. It was busted either way, with Pyro Ball being more reliable and hitting almost as hard, getting most of the benchmarks it needed.

I'll probably post more when I get some replays and calcs together but these are just my thoughts for now.
 

Deleted User 350996

Banned deucer.
Hi guys, may I suggest this set:

Scolipede @ Black Sludge
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Megahorn
- Earthquake / Aqua Tail / Baneful Bunker
Ok I'm not exactly sure about the spread (the ladder is kind of dead so it's hard to have a solid opinion) yet it looks nice on paper but feel free to tell me what you think.
So basically, gaining access to Coil makes this thing bulkier while giving it 100% accuracy on its freshly gained new STAB which also are the strongest it could get. 3rd move can give you extra coverage (EQ for steel types, Aqua tail for bulky ground types...) while Baneful Bunker is the opportunity to get +1 speed while potentially scouting an opponent move/poisoning it.
Cya!
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
never gonna give you up<click for importable
Thought I'd post the team I made reqs with in case anyone else wants to use it to scramble to reqs.
I built around the offensive core of Rillaboom + Marowak-A, which is absolutely awesome right now. Rillaboom takes advantage of all the defensive threats that switch into Marowak, including Rhydon/Rhyperior, Toxapex, and Thick Fat Azumarill, only really fearing a burn at worst from any of them. I use High Horsepower because it gets rid of Toxapex, which is otherwise quite problematic for this team, as well as letting the Rilla beat non-Cotton Guard Ferrothorn (and Cotton Guard Ferro is just Marowak bait usually). Marowak in turn KOs everything. Er I mean. It helps with Rillaboom's Ferrothorn and Amoonguss issues. Ditto is important support for these two as it helps scout for Knock Off and other coverage / support moves that may cripple them (mostly Knock Off cuz rip Thick Club). It also provides excellent Speed control.

Ferrothorn + Toxapex is possibly the best two-mon defensive core in the meta. ChansPex might have it beat, but it's still really really good. Toxapex is 100% the single best mon and there is no team that is not better off without it. Sylveon provides relief from hazards, some paralysis support, and a decently powerful special attacker. It is, ironically, my primary recourse against bulky Kommo-os.

Threats: Gyarados is an issue for this team. You have to play smart with Ferrothorn and Ditto to avoid losing a mon to most sets, however Apple Acid on Ferrothorn means that it is doable. DON'T try to spam Strength Sap on it, Dragon Dance will out-PP you. Heavy Duty Boots Cinderace can be nasty if you let Toxapex get Knocked Off because it can come in over and over again. Marowak can also be scary, especially with Poltergeist, but that's kind of a given for any team that isn't like... rain.

This team went through several incarnations before it ended up like this. Older versions included one with Clefable, one with Urshifu, Alakazam, and Rhyperior... none worked very well. I like this one though! If we weren't about to vote on something in a suspect I might try to get it made into a sample :3


As for the metagame, and V-Create's place in it... I stand by what I said before. V-Create hits too damn hard. The metagame has centralized to an incredible degree around Marowak-A and its few counters. I think banning Marowak would help, but not be enough, as Cinderace also smacks a huge portion of the meta around with V-Create. Toxapex is the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, and that is in no small part due to its ability to both counter and support our fiery phenoms.
 
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in the hills

spreading confusion
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V-Create has been banned from STABmons!

With the ban of V-Create, what threats do you think will rise up in the meta? Will Fire-types like Marowak-Alola and Cinderace still be dominant? Will Toxapex continue its oppressive reign? Or will something else like Magearna, which benefits directly from V-Create's ban, become the new Pokemon on the block? Stay tuned to find out and feel free to discuss!
 

Betathunder

alphalightning
V-Create has been banned from STABmons!

With the ban of V-Create, what threats do you think will rise up in the meta? Will Fire-types like Marowak-Alola and Cinderace still be dominant? Will Toxapex continue its oppressive reign? Or will something else like Magearna, which benefits directly from V-Create's ban, become the new Pokemon on the block? Stay tuned to find out and feel free to discuss!
I can finally ladder again
 
V-Create has been banned from STABmons!

With the ban of V-Create, what threats do you think will rise up in the meta? Will Fire-types like Marowak-Alola and Cinderace still be dominant? Will Toxapex continue its oppressive reign? Or will something else like Magearna, which benefits directly from V-Create's ban, become the new Pokemon on the block? Stay tuned to find out and feel free to discuss!
Can we free darmanitan now
 

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