Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations

DreamPrince said:
Without Close Combat though, Kommo-o could not take advantage of Dragon Dance because it’s best fighting STAB was Sky Uppercut which is objectively weak. It was in RU prior to USUM.
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(This belongs in some other thread so it'll be my last post on the topic)

Okay, I'll humor you with Kommo-o's lack of Close Combat being the reason it was RU prior to USUM's release. It certainly had nothing to do with it getting an omni-boosting, offensive Z-move that complimented its naturally impressive bulk and useful defensive typing (which help to aid set up opportunities with later Dragon Dances). It definitely didn't involve it getting Drain Punch, a STAB move weaker than Sky Uppercut but offers it a form of recovery, which is especially nice when boosted by Belly Drum or (to a lesser extent) Dragon Dance. It also probably didn't matter that it got Stealth Rock, offering it an interesting niche when combined with its defenses and typing.

I don't have any particular problem with Kommo-o learning Close Combat, honestly. It's just that the move existing invalidates almost any other possible physical Fighting STAB a Pokémon could want (and that's impressive, given that Fighting has 3 other physical STAB moves with 120+ base power, 4 if you include Reversal, and another 4 that are 100 BP). Sky Uppercut has been one of my favorite moves conceptually since its introduction in Gen 3, and I've always been saddened by its low distribution (I also wouldn't call 85 BP "objectively weak." On the weaker end, sure, but it's not a weak move). Kommo-o getting it was finally a chance for it to see some love, I thought, and then they went and tacked CC onto its learnset in USUM. Incredibly disappointing.

There may have been multiple reasons behind them cutting Return/Frustration; most likely they're just a pain to keep at full power and aren't mechanically reliable. But I also think there may be some merit to them cutting the moves for the strength of a STAB option it granted Normal Pokémon. But, if that is the case, there's some definite hypocrisy in removing those attacks but adding CC as a TR now.

And don't get me started on the hypocrisy of weakening the long-time 95 BP Special moves to 90 in Gen 6... and then introducing Moonblast for their shiny new Fairy type, complete with 95 BP.
 
CPU said:
There may have been multiple reasons behind them cutting Return/Frustration; most likely they're just a pain to keep at full power and aren't mechanically reliable. But I also think there may be some merit to them cutting the moves for the strength of a STAB option it granted Normal Pokémon.
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I once argued the same thing a while back, and everyone gave me shit.

DrPumpkinz said:
It's possible that tracking friendship values relied so heavily on what trainer was currently using it that getting it to work with rental teams seemed like too big a hassle.

And honestly, even if it wasn't a hassle, I'm actually kinda glad that Return and Frustration are gone. There are a ton of interesting physical Normal moves (Double-Edge, Facade, Body Slam, Mega Kick, Crush Claw, Retaliate, Thrash) and it was boring to have practically all of them be ignored in favor of a spiceless move that literally everything can learn.
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Glad to find someone who agrees with that take.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
I once argued the same thing a while back, and everyone gave me shit.


Glad to find someone who agrees with that take.
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You might be where I got it from, can't say at this point. But it's definitely a good theory, especially since they brought back Body Slam, Mega Punch, and Mega Kick all at once. Granted, Mega Punch/Kick are pretty spiceless in execution (especially with their rather bad accuracy), but they're more "specific" moves than whatever Return is.
 
CPU said:
You might be where I got it from, can't say at this point. But it's definitely a good theory, especially since they brought back Body Slam, Mega Punch, and Mega Kick all at once. Granted, Mega Punch/Kick are pretty spiceless in execution (especially with their rather bad accuracy), but they're more "specific" moves than whatever Return is.
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Mega Kick's got that high-risk-high-reward spice. Mega Punch is awful, though.
 
Honestly, since there are TRs for Flare Blitz and Brave Bird, they should've done one for Double-Edge, too.

As a TM in Gen I and a Move Tutor in Gen III, it had pretty insane distribution, and I feel the normal type overall would really appreciate having it, since it it now lacks a widely-distributed 100+ power move, Mega Kick is a thing but there are quite a few normal types that lost Return that cannot use it due to their anatomy.

Also Normal is far from a good offensive type, the only things that use it are Normal types themselves or Pokemon with terrible movepools(like Klinklang) that they have no other options. Seems a bit unfair that Fire and Flying get their 120 power recoil move as TRs but not Normal, which has one that has a history of being both a TM and Move Tutor in the past.
 
One day I was scrolling through sableye's moveset, until I ran into something quite peculiar.
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How and when the hell did sableye get acces to Octazooka? Most importantly how does it use it? I don't see any tentacles.

However, things just got more bizzare when I searched it up...
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Turns out it was some sort of weird event pokemon in gen 5. Forget about will o wisp and recover, trick + black sludge is where the heat is at.

The fact that a gremlin can use what was once Octillery's signature move (the Grappoloct family can learn it) still baffles me, it makes no sense flavour wise. Can anyone make a guess on how this works? Judging be the set I guess GF just shrugged and said :wynaut:

Edit: Whoops, looks like someone in the thread already mentioned it, and its suppose to be some sort of inside joke?
 
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SpookMÆN said:
Edit: Whoops, looks like someone in the thread already mentioned it, and its suppose to be some sort of inside joke?
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From what I could find, in Japan Pokemon has a live action variety show that has been going on for a long time and gone through several iterations (they are probably most well known outside Japan as Pokemon Company/Gamefreak like to sometimes give them exclusive announcements to make). For the purpose of this inquiry the iteration we're looking at was called "Pokemon Smash!" which ran during the Gen V era. One of the hosts went by the name Chief Golgo and was apparently notable for three things: his favorite Pokemon was Sableye, his favorite move was Octozooka, and he liked to tickle people. Thus, for one of their Pokemon giveaways, they gave out a Sableye that knew Octozooka and Tickle (not sure if Black Sludge and Trick was also a reference to something Chief Golgo liked/did; I'm assuming it only has Foul Play to have some kind of STAB move to use on it).
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Some of my favourites.

:gs/feraligatr:
In Pokemon Crystal specifically, the Feraligatr line can get Razor Wind via breeding. This doesn't happen in GS iirc, nor any future title in the series. To get it, teach a Kabutops Razor Wind in RBY, trade it over, then breed with one of the gators. This is long and far the most obscure Egg Move I know of, I'm shocked Poke Transporter even allowed me to transfer it.

:gs/typhlosion:
Typhlosion can learn Iron Tail via TM in Gen 2, but nowhere else. No clue why, that's just how it is.

:rb/dewgong:
Dewgong can learn Strength via HM in Gen 1, but nowhere else. Why? I scream, for I do not know.
 
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Siggu said:
And to make it stranger, unlike other popularly weird cases like Alakazam or Primeape, NO ONE in Typhlosion's line has tails.
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I would assume it's an error, but Crystal didn't remove it. Perhaps it's linked to the fact Typhlosion was cloned off of Charizard during GS's development, as that line also gets Iron Tail.

On a side note, in Crystal specifically, Typhlosion can learn Submission via transferring Pokemon from RGBY. All candidates have to learn it via the TM, though.
 
Cursola, despite having 30 Spd, and 145 Sp. Atk, and having a very wide movepool, can not learn Trick Room. Like why not? It was practically designed for Trick Room but can’t even set it up by itself. It’s at the bottom of the pit thanks to that stupid design choice. What’s worse, things like Indeedee-M and Gengar learn Trick Room, despite both being Fast and Frail attackers. It’s really sad because Cursola has the potential to be a devastating Trick Room attacker but it cannot to that due to the lack of TR in its moveset, so it’s dependent on team support for TR. So that’s means most teams will not use it at all. It’s so sad because Cursola’ one of my favorite Pokémon of Gen 8, and all it’s needs is one move to give it a better niche than it already has. At least there’s Weak Armor + Weakness Policy + Beat Up.
 
Im not a trick room expert but generally i think that if you run trrick room it is not so your trick room user is also the only one taking advantage of trick room, its that you have a team of pokemon, several of which likely do not have trick room, that can use it in the short time it's up.


That said considering all the ghosts that do learn you'd think Cursola would get it too but...
 
R_N said:
Im not a trick room expert but generally i think that if you run trrick room it is not so your trick room user is also the only one taking advantage of trick room, its that you have a team of pokemon, several of which likely do not have trick room, that can use it in the short time it's up.


That said considering all the ghosts that do learn you'd think Cursola would get it too but...
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I actually consider Trick Room as more likely to have the setters want to make use of it compared to building a team around weather or terrain. For those archetypes, the main draw of setters and the main draw of users are both Abilities, which inherently means they can't be on the same mon. Because Trick Room only wants a particular stat distribution, it can be ran more on the same mon intended to make use of it (the most notable example imo being Stakataka). Of course, it's also seen more in doubles where dedicated support mons are more likely.

As for Cursola, my best guess is that it was decided that it's not supposed to go first. Both of its abilities require being hit in order to function, and it has a great defensive movepool that could theoretically be used to take said hits. Though I think it probably needed to stay Water-type to get STAB scald as a bulky attacker, even if it had better stats for the job.
 
DreamPrince said:
Cursola, despite having 30 Spd, and 145 Sp. Atk, and having a very wide movepool, can not learn Trick Room. Like why not? It was practically designed for Trick Room but can’t even set it up by itself. It’s at the bottom of the pit thanks to that stupid design choice. What’s worse, things like Indeedee-M and Gengar learn Trick Room, despite both being Fast and Frail attackers. It’s really sad because Cursola has the potential to be a devastating Trick Room attacker but it cannot to that due to the lack of TR in its moveset, so it’s dependent on team support for TR. So that’s means most teams will not use it at all. It’s so sad because Cursola’ one of my favorite Pokémon of Gen 8, and all it’s needs is one move to give it a better niche than it already has. At least there’s Weak Armor + Weakness Policy + Beat Up.
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It feels weird to me too and it would be so awesome if it could learn Trick Room, but I think this was done for balance reasons kind of unrelated to Cursola.

I forget if I posted this in the little things you like thread or if I just thought about it, but I like in newer games that they don't make new Pokemon that completely outclass old ones. (Unless they were already outclassed, like Barraskewda being a better Floatzel, which was already outclassed by a lot of other Swift Swim Pokemon.) Dusclops can use Eviolite and has Helping Hand and Trick Room, which makes it pretty good in Double Battles, but Cursola's pre-evolutionn, Corsola, has about the same bulk with Eviolite and reliable recovery in Strength Sap. Corsola is clearly better in Single Battles, but if it had Trick Room, Dusclops's would only have a niche as having Helping Hand and the ability Frisk instead of Recovery, but is that worth it for most teams? (I don't play Doubles, so please tell me if this rhetorical question is actually yes.)

Pokemon usually don't gain Trick Room after evolving, so Cursola is a casualty of balancing a different Pokemon. On the bright side, it lets Corsola use Eviolite, so in a weird way Cursola is good because it exists. Is that enough to make fans feel better? I'd be surprised if it did, but at least Cursola still looks cool!


Edit: I forgot to say they started trying to not outclass old Pokemon starting in Gen 7 or 8.
Edit 2: Made it easier to tell I was talking about Corsola and Cursola because it's way too easy to misread one as the other.
 
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CTNC said:
It feels weird to me too and it would be so awesome if it could learn Trick Room, but I think this was done for balance reasons kind of unrelated to Cursola.

I forget if I posted this in the little things you like thread or if I just thought about it, but I like that they don't make new Pokemon that completely outclass old ones. (Unless they were already outclassed, like Barraskewda being a better Floatzel, which was already outclassed by a lot of other Swift Swim Pokemon.) Dusclops can use Eviolite and has Helping Hand and Trick Room, which makes it pretty good in Double Battles, but Corsola has about the same bulk with Eviolite and reliable recovery in Strength Sap. Corsola is clearly better in Single Battles, but if it had Trick Room, Dusclops's would only have a niche as having Helping Hand and the ability Frisk instead of Recovery, but is that worth it for most teams? (I don't play Doubles, so please tell me if this rhetorical question is actually yes.)

Pokemon usually don't gain Trick Room after evolving, so Cursola is a casualty of balancing a different Pokemon. On the bright side, it lets Corsola use Eviolite, so in a weird way Cursola is good because it exists. Is that enough to make fans feel better? I'd be surprised if it did, but at least Cursola still looks cool!


Edit: I forgot to say they started trying to not outclass old Pokemon starting in Gen 7 or 8.
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Dusclops is significantly bulkier than Cursola, so it would still have a niche. Cursola is more offensive, but has awful physical bulk, so Dusclops would be considered a more reliable TR setter.
 
DreamPrince said:
Dusclops is significantly bulkier than Cursola, so it would still have a niche. Cursola is more offensive, but has awful physical bulk, so Dusclops would be considered a more reliable TR setter.
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The problem with changing one letter in a name after evolving is it's easy is misread Corsola as Cursola... I bet it's easy to mishear too.
 
Yung Dramps said:
Spr 3r 373.png
until Gen 5,
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and
vivillon.gif
among others would like to have a word with you.
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I don't think Salamence and Conkeldurr fully outclassed Dragonite and Machamp, tbh. They outclassed them in some ways (the most direct attacking ways), but they each still had a niche. Dragonite had a far more expansive special movepool than Salamence (though a slightly weaker SA stat), higher bulk, and a few support options Salamence lacked like Thunder Wave and Haze. Machamp is faster than Conkeldurr, has notably superior special defense, and had No Guard with Dynamic Punch. Still not sure why they won't give Machamp Drain Punch though :blobshrug:
 
Total Clefairy said:
a little more out there, but how about "reefenant"? might be too similar to trevenant, but it combines a coral reference (reef) with the ghost theme (revenant)
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Sadly I do think it's too close to Trevenant, but otherwise I like it. I tried to stick close to the Japanese name which the translation team tried to do with the other Regional Evolutions.

Cursola's Japanese name is Sunigoon. It's derived from Corsola's Japanese name, Sunnygo (which is derived from "sango" which is Japanese for coral & English word "sunny"), but adding the English word "gone" because it died.

So of the names I gave the closest would probably be Corsolong, a combination of Corsola (which is a combination of coral & solar) and the phrase "so long".
 
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