Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Doesn't everyone heal their team immediately after each Elite 4 battle?
You may be right in the context of both, but for the case of Elite 4 battles specifically, that healing has to come ou of your own pocket, and if a pokemon needs less of this in the E4, it saves items that other pokemon on the team can use instead.

Thought I would throw some cents in here.
 
I'm fully aware that Early Bird Rest is a gimmick at best; I did say Girafarig is the best Early Bird Rest user, not that it's a strat I'd recommend going out of your way to hunt for (mine just happened to be able to do it on my most recent run). The amount of money I saved up by using Rest instead of buying Hyper Potions also gave me just enough to stock up on another Game Corner TM (on top of the Psychic TM that Girafarig already demands), but since I actually had to work for that extra cash I neglected to mention this detail. And honestly from my testing, Rest was the 2nd most useful combat-oriented filler move for Girafarig (behind Reflect, ahead of Agility); Shadow Ball and Return don't really add much value much less sway matchups, though the free slot does mean a potential Strength / Flash user to relieve some burden off your HM slave. Heck, I haven't even tested Baton Pass with Girafarig as a neat way to allow a teammate to potentially clean sweep a fight it otherwise wouldn't, but the value is likely downplayed by the fact that most matchups that Girafarig can build Calm Minds against could probably be swept by Girafarig itself anyway.

All said and done, I'm still nominating Girafarig just for being a Calm Mind STAB Psychic user with Thunderbolt access and Normal typing, which I believe gives it enough value to not wallow in D Rank, especially considering the versatility that its free moveslot provides.
 
Was looking at the early posts and saw the brief discussion on Rayquaza being S-tier. I think this is worth rediscussing because I think ability and TIMING of availability get conflated a lot when people discuss viability.

Basically, I think that Rayquaza should be S-tier because in spite of its late appearance, it's a singlehanded game changer with virtually no comparison. The Elite Four in RSE is fairly tough, especially with the typical level curve typically leaving me barely scraping an average party level of 45 without significant grinding on most of my playthroughs. That is, they're tough without Rayquaza.

For some (most) Pokemon, late availability makes sense in lowering their tier score, because of what typically comes with that late availability: some combination of significant backtracking or deeper exploration than necessary for an efficient run, significant grinding to bring the Pokemon to an acceptable level, precious TMs to update the new party member's wild-caught moveset, lower stats than an early catch that has been receiving EVs, or simply not being good enough to justify a team spot. The less a Pokemon suffers from these issues in the lategame, the higher they typically creep up these tier lists, as shown by Colo's Vibrava, GSC's Red Gyarados, etc.

Rayquaza does not suffer from these issues at all. It comes 25 levels higher than the last gym battle, has two powerful STABs, one of which is highly PP efficient; Rest and the bulk from its level to pull it off and save you healing items; and an obviously strong typing that is super effective against one E4 member and resists the Champion.

It is admittedly not perfect, as the Sky Pillar is technically out of the way and a dungeon that's more annoying than it is lengthy, but you have the Master Ball by the time you see it. Annoyingly, it also does not run over Glacia like it can the other four.

Still, its ease of access, self-sufficient movepool without a single TM (though anything obviously only makes it better) and the sheer ease it provides for the final battles makes it seem like too powerful not to be considered effectively mandatory for an efficient playthrough of Emerald. The extra 25 levels it has over Ruby and Sapphire's box legendaries (who help out with the E4 significantly) do, imo, make a tier's worth of difference in use.

I could be wrong because the idea of beating Emerald without Rayquaza has never been something appealing enough for me to try, but beside a solo Mudkip speedrun or something, it seems to me that any run through Emerald without the Rayquaza is definitively and fundamentally less efficient than one with, which seems like the kind of statement one can only make of an S-tier. Rayquaza is late, yes, but it's still the single most immediately impactful capture you can make and becomes your MVP as soon as you capture it. If any lategame Pokemon has ever deserved S-tier it's Emerald Rayquaza.
 
1. Magnemite should be at least A-tier. Sure, its only usable attacks are electric-type, but it was made to do one thing-spam thunderbolt-and it does its job very well. You get TB right after catching it(from Wattson) and by fighting the trainers all the way from Petalburg to Slateport, stopping by the Abandoned Ship, you can get 9-10 levels and evolve quite easily. Also, it absolutely destroys Winona, Juan, and Wallace, and most of the late-game as well, since there are a lot of bird keepers, swimmers and water-type trainers. Finally, it has one of the best defensive typings in the game, and has solid defenses as well as a great Sp. Atk stat.
2. Ralts is way overrated, and should be A-tier. Sure, Gardevoir is good, but Ralts and Kirlia are trash. Those two levels at the very start until Confusion are harder than you expect. Also, Bite is everywhere, and while Special Tank Gardevoir may be able to take a hit, Glass Flowerpots(I refuse to say Glass Cannon. I figures flowerpots were a good metaphor, since they're often made out of glass and accurately describe the offensive prowess of these Pokes.) Ralts and Kirlia cannot.
 
@hiyboy1218 First off, welcome to Smogon!
Interesting discussion points brought up here.

IMO Magnemite is perfectly fine in B alongside Electrike, who fulfills a very similar role lategame.
Both thrive on late-game routes without needing extra grinding. Both have some good late-game match-ups in Archie, Wallace (sans Whiscash) and Glacia. I would not consider Winona a good match-up since neither deals well with her ace and by far most threatening mon, Altaria.
The remaining late-game match-ups are pretty close to a wash as well; the one major match-up Magneton has a notable advantage in is Phoebe (resists everything bar Dusclops' Earthquake and tanks STAB Ghost due to high defense)
Magneton's additional Steel-typing and high Defense is nice in a couple places, but it surprisigly is not a major factor for the lategame (aside from the Phoebe fight just mentioned) and, in my mind, is balanced by Electrike's superior availability (even if Electrike does not contribute much in major battles until you can catch Magnemite)

Ralts surely is the most controversial one of the S-ranks and I agree the Ralts phase kinda stinks. STAB Confusion really helps carry its earlygame though, and once Kirlia learns Calm Mind (lv. 21) and Shock Wave, it has absolutely no issues with its damage output (Psychic at lv. 26 means it won't taper off towards the end of stage 2 either). Bite IMO is a fairly minor point as Ralts/Kirlia can't beat the 'mons that use it anyway (neither can Alakazam beat Poochyena and Carvanha pre-Shock Wave, for the record)


EDIT: Not looking at a poster's profile before posting a reply can lead to not giving a proper welcome when it is in order...
 
Modulo I agree that Electrike and Magnemite perform similar roles, but Electrike needs a bit of babying until it learns Spark, whereas you can slap T-bolt onto Mag and go harass the aquatic wildlife right away. Electrike is also a bit of a deadweight until you get T-bolt because of unfavorable matchups.
 
Modulo I agree that Electrike and Magnemite perform similar roles, but Electrike needs a bit of babying until it learns Spark, whereas you can slap T-bolt onto Mag and go harass the aquatic wildlife right away. Electrike is also a bit of a deadweight until you get T-bolt because of unfavorable matchups.

Electrike actually has 2 ways around that lv. 13-20 phase: Either give it a strong Electric STAB right away with TM Shock Wave, or catch one on route 118, skipping the availability lead (we both touched upon Electrike not missing favourable major match-ups there except for maybe Archie in Sapphire) in favor of not having to grind and having a similar or even slightly better start than Magnemite (Manectric evolution right around the corner, slightly stronger STAB). Which one of these options is the best for any given playthrough is up to the player to decide.
 
1. Magnemite should be at least A-tier. Sure, its only usable attacks are electric-type, but it was made to do one thing-spam thunderbolt-and it does its job very well. You get TB right after catching it(from Wattson) and by fighting the trainers all the way from Petalburg to Slateport, stopping by the Abandoned Ship, you can get 9-10 levels and evolve quite easily. Also, it absolutely destroys Winona, Juan, and Wallace, and most of the late-game as well, since there are a lot of bird keepers, swimmers and water-type trainers. Finally, it has one of the best defensive typings in the game, and has solid defenses as well as a great Sp. Atk stat.
2. Ralts is way overrated, and should be A-tier. Sure, Gardevoir is good, but Ralts and Kirlia are trash. Those two levels at the very start until Confusion are harder than you expect. Also, Bite is everywhere, and while Special Tank Gardevoir may be able to take a hit, Glass Flowerpots(I refuse to say Glass Cannon. I figures flowerpots were a good metaphor, since they're often made out of glass and accurately describe the offensive prowess of these Pokes.) Ralts and Kirlia cannot.
1. I agree with the majority of what you've said regarding Magnemite, however these things are not sufficient to push it up to A due to three reasons, type coverage, bulk, and speed. Although Electric is a great attacking type, by the late game it falls off without coverage to support it which Magneton cannot get outside of Hidden Power, meaning Magneton must resort to 2, 3, or 4HKOs with Thunderbolt to succeed. This might be alright, but Magneton also suffers from low speed and relatively poor bulk, which means that it is often taking a hit before it can attack itself and when it does take a hit it will often be a hit that can 2HKO it in spite of the resistance (Walrein's Blizzard for example, even if it didn't have Surf to wash you away). Magneton is a great Pokemon but can't quite reach the top tiers.

2. I firmly disagree with your assessment of Ralts, supported by my own run where it dominated everything (my run begins at this post). The first two levels are trivial, it takes only a handful of switch grind sessions to acquire Confusion with plenty of Silcoon and Cascoon available, among others. Once it received Confusion it is self-sufficient. Per my run, Ralts is capable of sweeping Roxanne with difficulty from level 13, and sweeps Brawly without trouble at level 16. Once Kirlia you acquire Calm Mind and trivialize the rest of game as Calm Mind patches up the weak special bulk, enabling clean sweeps against Wattson and Flannery. Norman and the level period of 27-29 are the one weak spot Kirlia faces. Once you become Gardevoir the game is over. Gardevoir isn't merely good, it is in my opinion the single best Pokemon for sweeping the game short of Rayquaza (sweeps Winona, beats T+L minus Claydol, sweeps Juan, sweeps Sidney by setting up on Shiftry, gets 4 kills and can sweep some times vs Phoebe, sweeps Glacia, sweeps Drake with 1-2 Potions, sweeps Wallace), with significantly superior sweeping potential to Swampert and superior physical bulk to Alakazam that directly enables sweeps against the likes of Phoebe and Drake. Ralts and Kirlia cannot be categorized as trash by any means, Ralts being able to easily sweep Brawly ensures it an above average placement even if Roxanne is discounted, as does Kirlia with easy sweeps against Wattson and Flannery. With Gardevoir being one of the best three Pokemon in the game once it arrives, it fully and completely justifies its S tier ranking, a belief backed up by the majority who have run it since it was raised to S.
 
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1. Magnemite should be at least A-tier. Sure, its only usable attacks are electric-type, but it was made to do one thing-spam thunderbolt-and it does its job very well. You get TB right after catching it(from Wattson) and by fighting the trainers all the way from Petalburg to Slateport, stopping by the Abandoned Ship, you can get 9-10 levels and evolve quite easily. Also, it absolutely destroys Winona, Juan, and Wallace,
I don't know how your Magneton did this, but when I used Magneton, it was unable to OHKO Winona's Altaria, and Altaria's earthquake OHKO'd my Magneton. Magneton and Juan's Kingdra both 3HKO each other, and Kingdra outspeeds Magneton. (assuming we're talking about Emerald) 4 of Wallace's Pokemon outspeed Magneton and 5 can 2HKO or OHKO it. I don't think that counts as absolutely destroying Wallace.
and most of the late-game as well, since there are a lot of bird keepers, swimmers and water-type trainers.
A lot of B tier Pokemon can defeat those trainers pretty easily without using electric attacks.
Finally, it has one of the best defensive typings in the game, and has solid defenses as well as a great Sp. Atk stat.
The unfortunate thing about Magneton's defensive typing is that after Magnemite becomes obtainable, 6 of the 8 remaining bosses (7 of 9 if you count Emerald Maxie) use earthquake. Sidney, 1 of the 2 trainers without earthquake, uses 2 electric resists. Also 50 base HP isn't very solid.
Modulo I agree that Electrike and Magnemite perform similar roles, but Electrike needs a bit of babying until it learns Spark, whereas you can slap T-bolt onto Mag and go harass the aquatic wildlife right away. Electrike is also a bit of a deadweight until you get T-bolt because of unfavorable matchups.
You can catch Manectric on Route 118 and also slap thunderbolt on it right away. Route 118 Manectric is effectively the same thing as Magneton.
(Manectric evolution right around the corner, slightly stronger STAB).
How does Manectric have slightly stronger STAB? Manectric's base special attack is 15 points less than Magneton's, and both of them use the same 95 base power thunderbolt.
 
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How does Manectric have slightly stronger STAB? Manectric's base special attack is 15 points less than Magneton's, and both of them use the same 95 base power thunderbolt.

Once you are Manectric vs. Magneton, Magneton has the stronger TBolt. However, L24 Electrike has Spark as opposed to Magnemite's Thundershock, and Electrike evolves the same level Magnemite gets Spark. Obviously a mute point if you immediately grind both to lv. 30 and slap Thunderbolt on them, though.
 
1. I agree with the majority of what you've said regarding Magnemite, however these things are not sufficient to push it up to A due to three reasons, type coverage, bulk, and speed. Although Electric is a great attacking type, by the late game it falls off without coverage to support it which Magneton cannot get outside of Hidden Power, meaning Magneton must resort to 2, 3, or 4HKOs with Thunderbolt to succeed. This might be alright, but Magneton also suffers from low speed and relatively poor bulk, which means that it is often taking a hit before it can attack itself and when it does take a hit it will often be a hit that can 2HKO it in spite of the resistance (Walrein's Blizzard for example, even if it didn't have Surf to wash you away). Magneton is a great Pokemon but can't quite reach the top tiers.

2. I firmly disagree with your assessment of Ralts, supported by my own run where it dominated everything (my run begins at this post). The first two levels are trivial, it takes only a handful of switch grind sessions to acquire Confusion with plenty of Silcoon and Cascoon available, among others. Once it received Confusion it is self-sufficient. Per my run, Ralts is capable of sweeping Roxanne with difficulty from level 13, and sweeps Brawly without trouble at level 16. Once Kirlia you acquire Calm Mind and trivialize the rest of game as Calm Mind patches up the weak special bulk, enabling clean sweeps against Wattson and Flannery. Norman and the level period of 27-29 are the one weak spot Kirlia faces. Once you become Gardevoir the game is over. Gardevoir isn't merely good, it is in my opinion the single best Pokemon for sweeping the game short of Rayquaza (sweeps Winona, beats T+L minus Claydol, sweeps Juan, sweeps Sidney by setting up on Shiftry, gets 4 kills and can sweep some times vs Phoebe, sweeps Glacia, sweeps Drake with 1-2 Potions, sweeps Wallace), with significantly superior sweeping potential to Swampert and superior physical bulk to Alakazam that directly enables sweeps against the likes of Phoebe and Drake. Ralts and Kirlia cannot be categorized as trash by any means, Ralts being able to easily sweep Brawly ensures it an above average placement even if Roxanne is discounted, as does Kirlia with easy sweeps against Wattson and Flannery. With Gardevoir being one of the best three Pokemon in the game once it arrives, it fully and completely justifies its S tier ranking, a belief backed up by the majority who have run it since it was raised to S.
I've looked into your logs with the Ralts and Kirlia period, particularly the first four gym leaders, and, with respect, I'm not sure it's deserving of the praise you harp onto it. To back this up, I'll go through your logs of Roxanne, Wattson, and Flannery and demonstrate what exactly are my problems with them. I understand if this comes off as nitpicking or even a personal attack, but if you're gonna defend Ralts to S based on your logs I feel as if they're open to scrutiny. It's also worth noting that I haven't properly tested Ralts, but I've been playing Emerald for a very long time and have used it many times, so I feel as if I understand what it does well enough to comment on it here. I've also done enough testing in other games to understand what makes a good/efficient matchup and what doesn't, and I'll be using that understanding to analyze your logs. Without further ado:

Ralts: Gets 2HKOed by any of the Rock attacks, but is capable of using their poor accuracy against them. By using one Double Team against each Geodude and having them either miss Rock Tomb/Throw or use Defense Curl you can 2HKO with Confusion and get to Nosepass with +2 evasion. As mentioned in the Poochyena write up, Nosepass loves to spam Harden (and Block) which allows you to comfortably reduce it to -6 Attack and boost yourself to +6 evasion, at which point you can Confusion your way to victory (5HKO in a vacuum, 11HKO with Oran Berry and two Potions). Ran this a couple times and its pretty reliable as long as you can avoid getting hit on the first turn. Might need to use a Potion or Oran Berry of your own to support in some instances. Pretty decent solo effort.
Even if Ralts can very possibly sweep here, this is clearly the exact opposite of an efficient sweep. Having to rely on misses and Double Teams just for a chance to 11hko Nosepass is simply not worth it whatsoever. No one in their right mind would or should go through this much effort for a battle you could easily sweep with your starter, Shroomish, or even Nuzleaf or Lombre.

Kirlia: Voltorb can be used as set up for Kirlia. After a couple Calm Minds the Sparks and Shock Waves do meager damage while Double Team is used to insure against Selfdestruct. Cheri Berry means that when Spark procs paralysis, Synchronize leaves only Voltorb paralyzed. This takes 1-3 Potions depending on rng variance. At +6 Kirlia OHKOs Voltorb and Electrike, 2HKOs Magneton, and is just shy of the OHKO on Manectric while taking insignificant damage from their Shock Waves. With the caveat the Double Team is not deleted, Kirlia reaches level 21 for Calm Mind, and a Cheri Berry is equipped, this is a comfortable clean sweep for Kirlia. Excellent showing.
Again, this is incredibly inefficient. Needing rng to dodge Self-Destrust (which would likely or guaranteed ohko your Ralts), getting up to +6, spamming potions to Synchronize paralyze Voltorb (is that step even necessary?), all to only ohko the two weakest members of Wattsons team? Does a sweep where you need good rng, the max amount of stat buffs, and potion chugging only to achieve a moderate damage output really make for an excellent matchup? Considering you might need around 4-5 Calm Minds to ohko even Voltorb I cannot accept in good faith that this matchup is good, let alone excellent.

Kirlia: Needs 3 CMs to OHKO Camerupt, 4 CMs to OHKO Torkoal, Numel will use Sunny Day and can then 3HKO with Take Down or Overheat. Needs 1-2 Potions and then clean sweeps.
Not a lot to say here since the log isn't very descriptive (not necessarily a bad thing, just sucks for me) but I'm curious as to how exactly you were able to ohko Torkoal with just Kirlia. I did some novice calcing and it doesn't seem to quite click for me:

+6 Lvl 21 0+ SpA Kirlia Psychic vs. Lvl 29 0 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 71-84 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This calc assumes a + sp att nature and max ivs in every stat. I didn't see your Ralts ivs if you posted them so I can't be sure of what they were. I'm not accusing you of lying or anything, just curious as there may be some factor I'm missing here. I'm willing to accept this as a good matchup for Gardevoir, as this is well within the level 30 range to have Garde, and then the calcs become much more in your favor:

+2 Lvl 30 0 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. Lvl 29 0 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 107-127 (121.5 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Far less setup necessary for a much better result. Based on this I would not rate the Flannery mu based on Kirlia; the few levels of grinding definitely pay off for the far better sweep.

Overall I don't find your defense of Ralts to S, based on your logs, to be very convincing. You rate it this high based on an egregious amount of stat buffs that are just inefficient and not very reliable to obtain. The Ralts and Kirlia period, based on your logs, is very contingent on luck to obtain ok results at best. I should state that I don't really have an opinion on whether Ralts should be S or not; I recognize both sides of the argument and think they both have a lot of merit. But I simply don't see the evidence that the Ralts and Kirlia period is as good as you claim it to be.

EDIT: I forgot to change the level for Kirlia when running those calcs vs Torkoal. I called them novice calcs for a reason :psygrump: that part can be ignored. Otherwise what I said about Kirlia vs Gardevoir there stands.
 
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I concur with the fact that if several people are nominating Ralts to A, its tier should be re-evaluated.

Yes, several people supported S for Ralts in the past, but at the same time it shouldn't make a mon immune to criticism or re-evaluation or a ranking change. If flaws are seen as flaws by a good number of people retroactively, then past reasoning might need to be pored over or discussed a bit more.

And +6 on any mon, even if Wattson is considered a difficult fight, I think is just ridiculous. You can sweep sure, but is it really all that efficient? I don't think so. Anything higher than +4 or even +2 I think is just ignoring or downplaying the weaknesses of a Pokemon at that point. I also don't agree with relying on Double Team for a few matchups. Sure, you get it naturally but that's putting a Band-Aid over the fact Ralts can't really take Roxanne in a straight fight and has to slowly slog it's way through. An 11HKO on Nosepass with a Potion is just...ugh.
 
Once you are Manectric vs. Magneton, Magneton has the stronger TBolt. However, L24 Electrike has Spark as opposed to Magnemite's Thundershock, and Electrike evolves the same level Magnemite gets Spark. Obviously a mute point if you immediately grind both to lv. 30 and slap Thunderbolt on them, though.
As far as I know, there are zero good reasons to use Magnemite for anything before slapping thunderbolt onto it. I don't think grinding has anything to do with whether Magnemite can or should learn thunderbolt.
 
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+6 Lvl 21 0+ SpA Kirlia Psychic vs. Lvl 29 0 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 71-84 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

why the fuck is your Kirlia level 21 for Flannery


i don't have the time to respond right now but these criticisms are bad. roxanne was never used as an argument for S, same with the phoebe matchup, only used as examples of things they can do. the wattson matchup is 100% favored, self-destruct is not prioritized and you have more than enough time to dodge between paralysis and double teams., moreover my logs ONLY reflect that I set up to +6, NOT that it was necessary to do so. literally using a level 21 kirlia as a comparison against a level 30 gardevoir.


all due respect I do not appreciate a group of people coming here and brigade posting against me. no one has ever said that a mon is immune from criticism. not once. but half-assed arguments against gardevoir on the basis of "its frail" hold zero water with me when we have a half-dozen runs of people each with extensive tiering experience backing up the nomination.

Ralts was a controversial nomination in the first place, only moved up after a significant amount of re-runs were done to validate its placement. I expect a similarly high standard of argument against it for anyone wanting to move it down, not bad faith nitpicks with inaccurate premises or weak unspecific arguments.
 
Hmmmm. I don’t see why you are so opposed to a re-evaluation of Ralts when numerous A’s are coming in. It doesn’t hurt anything.

Also incredibly self centered if you thought the following posts outside of Ceal’s were directed towards you. The last two are simply starting their opinions on the current events and what the believe should probably be done.
 
Hmmmm. I don’t see why you are so opposed to a re-evaluation of Ralts when numerous A’s are coming in. It doesn’t hurt anything.

Also incredibly self centered if you thought the following posts outside of Ceal’s were directed towards you. The last two are simply starting their opinions on the current events and what the believe should probably be done.
Is it self-centered? Or are you all a friend group who has a long history of working together on your in-game tier list discussion threads. Hmm, I wonder which it could be.

You can fuck right off with this accusation that I'm opposed to a re-evaluation. I literally asked the last guy to expand on his rationale and reasoning after he nominated Ralts for A.

The fact of the matter is that the arguments presented against Ralts to this point are weak, cherry picked, or based on flawed reasoning. Not sufficient to justify a move, especially when the majority of this threads major contributors have tested Ralts themselves and supported its rise.
 
to be explicitly clear, the arguments presented against ralts are as follows:

"Ralts and Kirlia are trash"
"Bite is everywhere"
"flowerpots were a good metaphor, since they're often made out of glass and accurately describe the offensive prowess of these Pokes""
"Getting out sped by Zigzagoons as Ralts:"
"arguing abra was better than ralts"
"Running out of Confusion"
"wattson matchup might not be that good" - this is a valid argument


the sum total of this is nowhere close to the standard necessary to live up to argue any pokemon to move between any tier, let alone moving something out of S, let alone something with an expansive test history
 
Going +6 doesn’t scream S. Also, yes I will say we have a friend group that tests. I’m fairly sure I haven’t hidden that in any capacity. Does it influence my decisions as a leader. No. I shot down an S nom even though the research provided was incredibly good.

Sorry my opinions have wounded your “integrity”, but when you get this defensive about a simple re evaluation and then start to cuss people out, you lose credibility. People have voiced opinions on this entire thing time and time again, but you get all defensive about it and then start to berate them.

I’ll go ahead and stop now as I’ve said my piece.
 
Going +6 doesn’t scream S. Also, yes I will say we have a friend group that tests. I’m fairly sure I haven’t hidden that in any capacity. Does it influence my decisions as a leader. No. I shot down an S nom even though the research provided was incredibly good.

Sorry my opinions have wounded your “integrity”, but when you get this defensive about a simple re evaluation and then start to cuss people out, you lose credibility. People have voiced opinions on this entire thing time and time again, but you get all defensive about it and then start to berate them.

I’ll go ahead and stop now as I’ve said my piece.
Bullshit. People have not voiced opinions on this time and again. Two people have made nominations and received explanations countering their nomination. The time when this was discussed time and again resulted in Ralts going to S.

Your "opinions" have never wounded my integrity, you falsely accusing me of falsifying test results have. I think you're a piece of shit but that doesn't stop me from fairly evaluating nominations by you.

You accuse me of getting defensive? Guilty as charged. And completely justified by you coming into this thread and supporting weak claims on false premises. I have no time for accusations of partiality and bias, and even less for accusations of hostility to new posters when I make a point to welcome them. You have a problem with me using cuss words? Grow up. Better yet, don't falsely accuse people of lying to satisfy your own ego.

Merritt is the leader of this thread, I have no authority over what Pokemon moves where, but you can bet your ass I'll stand up to defend the process that so many great contributors such as Punchshroom and Kurona have helped to build. You can have whatever weak ass standards you want in other threads. Not in this one.
 
why the fuck is your Kirlia level 21 for Flannery
per my edit:
EDIT: I forgot to change the level for Kirlia when running those calcs vs Torkoal. I called them novice calcs for a reason :psygrump: that part can be ignored. Otherwise what I said about Kirlia vs Gardevoir there stands.
Fwiw it really was not my intention to start some crusade against you. I may have my differences of opinion with you but I simply wished to respond to your argument. You claimed that the Ralts and Kirlia period wasn't that bad, I analyzed your evidence, and I disagreed with your assessment. I made it very clear I was not attempting to make an attack on you and if it came off that way, I apologize. However, my criticisms were certainly not made in bad faith. If anyone else chose to join the discussion that I was contributing to than that's their prerogative.

roxanne was never used as an argument for S, same with the phoebe matchup, only used as examples of things they can do
My issue is that what Ralts does vs Roxanne isn't really notable in the first place. Again, an 11hko. But you yourself said it was only decent, and while I personally wouldn't even give it that, I understand that this isn't a big factor of your argument.

the wattson matchup is 100% favored, self-destruct is not prioritized and you have more than enough time to dodge between paralysis and double teams
Again, an extraordinary amount of setup and luck in your favor to get even a moderately impressive sweep off. Is it really all that efficient? If Self-Destruct isn't even prioritized, then why bother setting up Double Team anyways? If only for the fact that you need around +4 to start ohkoing things and will probably get revenged by Magneton anyways unless it misses Sonicbooms. Again, I simply cannot in good faith accept this as a good matchup.

moreover my logs ONLY reflect that I set up to +6, NOT that it was necessary to do so
Even if you didn't need +6 (if you didn't, then why were you? And if you were going to, why not at least state in logs what the actual minimum amount of calm minds and double teams are) Ralts/Kirlia still need an unreasonable amount of set up turns to start sweeping at any level.

I expect a similarly high standard of argument against it for anyone wanting to move it down, not bad faith nitpicks with inaccurate premises or weak unspecific arguments.
Like I said previously I am not actively trying to take a side here, I see both arguments for and against Ralts's current placement. I simply decided to analyze the evidence you gave to back up your position. Since you tend to be the guy who champions Ralts to S, I felt it was a worthy exercise. It was in no way a personal attack on you and if you choose to ignore that cuz of whatever beef you might have with others in this thread, that's between you and them. All I want is to have good discussion.

"wattson matchup might not be that good" - this is a valid argument
For what it's worth, I appreciate that you see at least one of my criticisms as valid.

I'm sorry if I caused any sort of incident, my only goal was to contribute to the ongoing discussion. I hope to start my own run at some point but until then I cannot take any stance on whether Ralts is an S-tier or A-tier. Maybe the Ralts/Kirlia period isn't that bad, I don't personally think it's very good, but I haven't analyzed every mu with the sort of scrutiny I'd need to take a stance. In any case, Texas's evidence didn't convince me, and I felt it was worth analyzing for the benefit of anyone reading the thread.
 
Ya I didn't have a problem with you making your post, I had a problem with drawing the conclusion that you did based on a limited sample (Roxanne, Wattson, Flannery) using faulty data (Flannery), as your conclusion is based on a matchup not used for the nomination (Roxanne), excludes the most favorable matchup (Brawly), and flips the result of a good matchup to bad (Flannery). I do have a problem with the people bandwagoning on to try and force some kind of change that isn't warranted.

I thoroughly welcome additional test runs and expect any testers to come to similar conclusions as I did, if used in similar ways (e.g. not completely neglecting Reflect or Double Team as one tester did in the past). Gardevoir is one of the absolute best Pokemon I've ever had the pleasure of using and I have every confidence that anyone else who properly tests it will at the very least come to the conclusion that it has a favorable comparison to Alakazam.

Since you tend to be the guy who champions Ralts to S
in fairness i just post a lot, others (punchshroom comes to mind) have also championed it at varying points
 
All I was doing was just stating my opinion in regard to what an S tier should be in my eyes. I’m sorry if I offended anyone.

Also, re-evaluations can lead to change with proper assessment. In the Pokémon Black and White In-Game Tier List, it was initially believed Archen was S because of crazy offenses and Speed lend well to in-game runs. However, as we tested the mon, we found out Archeops in actuality suffers at the Elite Four when it starts missing OHKOs, and it was dropped to A as a result.

Good luck with this list. My response wasn’t meant to be an attack on anyone, just some observations.
 
Ya I didn't have a problem with you making your post, I had a problem with drawing the conclusion that you did based on a limited sample (Roxanne, Wattson, Flannery) using faulty data (Flannery), as your conclusion is based on a matchup not used for the nomination (Roxanne), excludes the most favorable matchup (Brawly), and flips the result of a good matchup to bad (Flannery). I do have a problem with the people bandwagoning on to try and force some kind of change that isn't warranted.

I thoroughly welcome additional test runs and expect any testers to come to similar conclusions as I did, if used in similar ways (e.g. not completely neglecting Reflect or Double Team as one tester did in the past). Gardevoir is one of the absolute best Pokemon I've ever had the pleasure of using and I have every confidence that anyone else who properly tests it will at the very least come to the conclusion that it has a favorable comparison to Alakazam.
Unfortunately the samples I had to work with were kinda small, your log on Brawly was only one sentence long and you didn't include logs for the May battle before Wattson. The fact that you have about five battles max before Gardevoir is certainly something to consider when deciding how negatively the Ralts/Kirlia period weighs into to Ralts's overall ranking, it's only missing the earlygame, give or take.

I absolutely share your passion for Gardevoir, it's one of my favorite pokemon and I almost always use it when I have a chance (I'm even using it in a Platinum test rn). I'm a little preoccupied with other things at the moment but if I eventually did my own Emerald run I'd definitely take Reflect though, idk if it was obvious from my other posts but I really don't like having to rely on shaky rng like Double Team to win fights.
 
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