Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Oh yea, definitely Ice Beam could've been very useful against Vigoroth (the Slaking was beat just fine with ProTox). I should say though that when I bought it after I did the Abandoned Ship I barely had any money left, so I would've had to sell a bunch of items to get it before Norman. Doable in RS because of broken Zigzagoon, but I dunno if that's realistic in Emerald (Psychic on the other hand shouldn't cause much problem). And I fought every single trainer.

Also I apologize if by doing Tate & Liza before defeating all the water routes I made my mons' performances worse—this is especially true for Pelipper and Swampert, both of which might've outsped if it weren't for their bad Speed IVs. That's they way I generally do it but I can see how being underleveled could've mattered.

Resuming my run:

Everything is level 40 except for Swampert which is 38.

Tried all 15 combinations.

with Medicham: Without Shadow Ball, HJK + Crunch doesn't quite OHKO either rock. Mawile can be focus fired on and 2HKOed by Flamethrower + Psychic. With Shadow Ball, they get destroyed and fsr they like to waste turns setting up. Funnily enough, SB can counteract Lunatone's CMs with the SpDef drops. Obviously they can still two-team Mawile but Medicham is so strong that it can beat both alone after one Bulk Up.

with Zangoose: Similarly to with Medicham, Zangoose's Shadow Ball is really strong although a bit weaker, meaning that Solrock is a roll to get two-shot and Lunatone can live the following Crunch after a CM. Zangoose can also be KO'd by +1 Psychic. The most reliable way is probably trying to set up an SD and then OHKOing both.

with Pelipper: For some reason Pelipper is outsped, which is very annoying since Solrock likes to Sunny Day. Surf goes from a 2HKO to a 4HKO which procs Hyper Potion(s). It also gets two-shot by Psychic, not very nice (note that Ice Beam outdamages Surf in sun after the spread penalty, being a targeted 3HKO). At the very least Mawile can lowers their SpDef with Fake Tears and lives +1 Psychic, it's weird how it ends up carrying Pelipper here. Bad matchup for the pelican.

with Shiftry: Tried it with Growth + Faint Attack first. At +1 its a favorable roll to OHKO Solrock and can beat Lunatone after a Crunch, while you live Flamethrower even in sun (Lunatone can only Hypnosis, so Early Bird helps here).
Then I tried SunnyBeam (although I think it's better to let Solrock set your sun). It OHKOs Solrock no problem, Lunatone can get annoying with Calm Mind so Fake Tears is good support. From this I gather your best bet is to run Growth + Faint Attack + SolarBeam and depending on if they set sun or not you decide how to beat them.
Also it should be noted Mawile actually learns SolarBeam. I tried it for the lolz, it does upwards of 60% to Solrock which is pretty cool. Unfortunately, Lunatone likes to spam CM and Light Screen so it's better to use Fake Tears.

with Swampert: Similarly to Pelipper, Swampert gets screwed over by being slower and getting Sunny Day'd on. But in its case it's worse, because SolarBeam from Solrock is an OHKO. It even has the courage to SolarBeam without using Sunny Day, which is annoying because I can't take even advantage of it with Mawile.

with Medicham: Shadow Ball + HJK KOs both and you outspeed. Really the worst they can do is put you to sleep, which is solved by focus firing Lunatone first. Just watch out for misses.

with Pelipper: If Solrock doesn't set up sun, Surf does just enough damage to ensure the KOs from Shadow Ball (so you SB, then Surf after they move, then SB the next turn). If it does, Ice Beam comes very close to ensuring the KO but it's not enough, not even with Pelipper's high Special Attack. I'd still say your best bet is to set up an SD and sweep with Goose. You're fine as long as they don't focus fire and you kill Lunatone (since the other's moves are weaker).

with Shiftry: This just destroys. SD with Zangoose and Growth with Shiftry and they just drop, especially if Solrock gives you sun. Or you can just attack directly, they won't know what hit them. Fake Out is good to ensure Lunatone doesn't start setting up and ensures Goose doesn't get two-teamed. Depending on what Solrock does you can even win unharmed, possibly the best pairing.

with Swampert: A bit worse than Pelipper again due to worse Special Attack and dying to SolarBeam. Zangoose can sweep as long as it's not targeted while it sets up.
At this point I think it's clear that how good a performance is depends on if you outspeed or not, especially for the Water-types. I think it's likely my mons' poor Speed IVs hurt them here since otherwise they might've been able to move first. Getting Sunny Day'd on makes it that much harder when your best move is a spread one (which is why Sharpedo is the best here, it can just Crunch them before they move).

with Medicham: Since it can survive two Psychics, Medicham can sweep after one boost as long as it doesn't put to sleep and stays there too long. Pelipper is basically a supporter but it can chip them with Surf and make them waste turns setting up. More reliable than Zangoose here, and heck, it doesn't even need Shadow Ball!

with Shiftry: Faking Out the Solrock guarantees no sun, which Pelipper appreciates. However, Lunatone can get a CM and do a lot of damage with Psychic (and at +1 it seems to survive Surf + Faint Attack). You're gonna come out on top but hurt. If you Fake Out the Lunatone you risk having sun up, but if it doesn't use it you'll win even more easily—and if it does you can always SolarBeam. Choose what you wish, just note that Surf on sun + Faint Attack doesn't KO Lunatone.

with Swampert: Depending on if Solrock Sunny Day's or not, it can be a clean matchup or an ugly one. Two Surf KOs both but Lunatone likes to set up CM/Light Screen which will make it more difficult. Hypnosis can also screw you over. Luckily Pert bait Solrock into beaming without sun so that should help.

with Medicham: Like with Zangoose, just hit them twice and they're ded. You don't even need to waste TMs, HJK + Faint Attack does the job even if you can miss. +1 HJK doesn't KO either so Shadow Ball is better there and obviously OHKOing Solrock with its own sun always feels nice.

with Swampert: Similar to Pelipper, Faking Out the Solrock guarantees no sun but allows Lunatone to CM/Light Screen whereas Faking Out Lunatone might allow sun (although Solrock also likes to SolarBeam Pert directly, meaning you can KO it later). Good chances of coming off unharmed overall, so slightly better than with Pelipper—even though once T&L used 4!! Hyper Potions on Lunatone because it kept living at +1.Medicham + Swampert: After one Bulk Up, Shadow Ball KOs both and HJK KOs them after a Surf, so as long as you get rid of Solrock before it SolarBeams Pert you're gonna be OK. As stated before, Cham can survive a +1 Psychic so it's all Gucci. Just be careful of Hypnosis—and missing if you're using HJK.

So to sum up, Shiftry is the best to pair up with since it provides Fake Out AND it destroys with SolarBeam. It, Medicham, and Zangoose are the best at just hitting hard, while the rest depends more on what the opponents do.

Everyone is at level 43.

Shiftry: At first I tried Growth + Giga Drain. At +1 you leave Mightyena in red, which means it can heal. It also annoys you with Scary Face and Swagger. If you're weakened, Crobat will come in and finish you off. If you're healthy tho, you can live two hits and 2HKO back with +1 Faint Attack. Unfortunately, Camerupt outspeeds after a Scary Face. Then I tried SunnyBeam. It OHKOs Mightyena which is pretty cool, so if you're Chlorophyll you can actually outspeed Crobat if you weren't Scary Faced and 3HKO with Faint Attack (although Wing Attack might two-shot if you took a Take Down/hit yourself). If you're not, you should prolly avoid Crobat altogether. SolarBeam does like 65% to Camerupt and it likes to Amnesia, so it can be hard. If it Takes Down, though, you can 2HKO it (even if sun runs out, you can charge as Maxie uses Super Potion). Not super clean fight but can get up to two kills.

Zangoose: -1 Return is a 2HKO on Mightyena, good to know. If it doesn't Swagger you can actually get two SDs on it. +3 Quick Attack comes really close to OHKOing Crobat, so if you sac something to Intimidate it's a KO. Anyway, if you're not confused you can take a hit just fine and get another boost, Then +5 Quick Attack KOs Bat and Camerupt. Very solid as long as you don't get confused/use a Persim Berry.

Pelipper: MW Surf OHKOs Mightyena, which is something I didn't expect. Ice Beam falls short of KOing Crobat, but the worst it can do is Confuse Ray. Camerupt is cleaned, obviously. Amazing matchup.

Medicham: HJK OHKOs Mightyena even after Intimidate. However, you'll need a couple boosts to two-shot Crobat with Return/Shadow Ball (and avoid being 2HKOed back) so you'll have to risk confusion. If you gave it Soothe Bell, Return can 2HKO after one boost. HJK doesn't OHKO Camerupt at neutral, but since you can tank two Wing Attacks at +1 you can possibly get a second Bulk Up as Maxie heals and guarantee the KO. Doable, although not reliable.

Mawile: Even with Hyper Cutter you don't 2HKO Mightyena with Silk Scarf Return, which I believe is your stronger move against it. You're also slower and prone to getting Swaggered. You should still generally beat it, though. Avoid Camerupt because even at +2 you don't OHKO it and EQ kills you from full. Crobat can be annoying with Confuse Ray but you'll still win more often than not, especially if you're using Fake Tears + Ice Beam which is an OHKO. Return 3HKOs. Eh matchup, it beats the things it's supposed to by virtue of its typing but gets more screwed over by confusion than the rest.

Swampert was a bit annoying to try since I was using it for HMs, lol. -1 EQ is a 2HKO but he likes to spam Super Potions. Strength is really weak against Crobat, but if you get Swaggered and get around confusion you can two-shot. Then EQ kills Camerupt. With Surf, it comes very close to KOing Mightyena but it's not enough, which makes me believe Pelipper's nature mattered. Crobat is 2HKOed by Surf/IB but activates Super Potion so it'll need three Surfs. Provided you didn't get too hurt you can live Camerupt's Earthquake so can win even after a Scary Face. Good matchup, not as good as Pelipper tho.

At this point in time I had to actually give Pert a lot of experience from trainers (it usually just fought wild mons) because they leveled up waaay too fast. That's the biggest difference between Erratic and Slow imo, something like Gardevoir would've prevented me from risking overleveling here. Also helps that Mawile is Fast.

Pelipper and Mawile are level 44, the rest is at 43. Shiftry, Medicham, and Zangoose level up after beating Luvdisc and Pert after Whiscash.

Shiftry: At first I tried Growth + Giga Drain. Since I was female I could set up more reliably at KO Luvdisc at +2 with Faint Attack, otherwise you need Fake Out to beat it at +1. +1 Giga OHKOs Sealeo and 2HKOs Milotic, taking a ton from Ice Beam but outspeeding. Seaking survives the hit tho, so to not run out of Giga Drain PP I advise you to either Growth first or 2HKO with Faint Attack. Whiscash is OHKO'd, obviously.
With SunnyBeam, everything is OHKOed except for Milotic which lives with around 20%. It may proc Hyper Potion which will bring it back to full just as sun runs out, which is kinda annoying. I think the cleanest sweep would be to Growth before setting up sun, but you're risking confusion (plus falling in love if you're not female). Anyway you're still gonna have to reset the sun, it's just safer to do it against Whiscash since Seaking can cancel it with Rain Dance. Good matchup otherwise, destroying Milotic is always nice.

Medicham: It's better to just OHKO Luvdisc since it can get annoying, also Whiscash is free setup because it likes to Amnesia. HJK destroys everything at +1 except for Milotic (edit: Whiscash appears to be a roll, but then again it's another setup opportunity), which lives in red sadly. Still, it's Ice Beam does around a third so you can set up another one pretty reliably—or just 2HKO by using a coverage move first. Excellent matchup, I'd say, as long as you don't miss.
Tried Brick Break, +1 leaves Whiscash in red so you definitely need +2. However, it's pretty much risk-free outside of it setting up rain and giving Seaking the chance to confuse you with Water Pulse. It's still doing little and you OHKO Milo reliably, clearly the best matchup. I'm not sure if Heracross can do as well, it might miss some KOs due to the (pure) power difference.

Pelipper: Luvdisc outspeeds, which is ugh. Shock Wave leaves it in red whereas Surf is a 2HKO. Whiscash is a tough matchup because it uses Amnesia, it lives the second Surf at literally one HP and my Pelipper has very high Special Attack. It also avoids the 3HKO after healing, which is disgusting. I wouldn't call this a winnable matchup, have someone else take care of it. Sealeo is 2HKOed by Shock Wave. Milo is also a bad one, Shock Wave appears to only 4HKO and its Ice Beam does a lot (over 40%, and you'll prolly be weakened). Again, best to have someone else defeat it. Seaking avoids the 2HKO from Shock Wave but Surf three-shots it thanks to rain, while it does little back. Not a great fight but you can beat 3/5.

Mawile: As ugly as you can imagine. Luvdisc is 2HKOed, but likes to both Attract and confuse you. Avoid Whiscash. Sealeo lives two hits even with poison, but at least you can outspeed it. It'll prolly leave you very weakened. You'll have to heal to continue. If you're healthy, Seaking is 3HKOed but unlike Sealeo poison can turn it into a 2HKO. If it lives, Water Pulse in rain does like 45%, so watch out. Milotic is lol.

Zangoose: It KOs Luvdisc without boosts and everything else at +2 (yes, that's right). Earthquake from Whiscash does around 50/129 HP, so less than 40%. Like with Medicham, the worst it can do is set up rain for Seaking to confuse you but it'll generally Amnesia, meaning you'll more likely than not end up at full. Zangoose rules, Milotic drools.

Swampert OHKOs Luvdisc with Earthquake, but it's faster so it can confuse you (or Attract you, since you'll generally be male). Whiscash is outsped and two-shot, its EQ does less than 30%. Sealeo lives in red, but its Aurora Beam can lower your Attack which is unfortunate. Seaking also lives by a hair, being able to set up rain for Milotic. That means it can actually finish you off after all the damage you've taken (since Water Pulse in rain does around 35%). I managed to live with 4 HP and 2HKO back thanks to wasting a rain turn with Dive. I'd say this is a very good matchup because Earthquake does a ton, making up for its slowness. However, you are pretty dependent on it which means something like Hera won't be able to use it.

I don't have much to add to my previous post, Zangoose keeps being amazing and Shiftry does very well against the last gym leaders as expected. Mawile falls hard (still might be worthy of D for the Norman matchup) and Pelipper struggles against Wallace but is otherwise the same. Also, now that Pert got EQ shit got real.
Regarding Medicham, it does stupendously against Tate & Liza (not even needing Shadow Ball) and Wallace, with Maxie's Crobat being the only annoying mon it's faced. It has very decent bulk for a mon that hits so hard and is quite fast. I don't know how realistic it is to have it evolved before Winona, especially since her ace is level 33, but other than that its performance seems to be at least on par with Heracross. I don't think the time invested to evolve should mean a difference of one tier simply because it catches up quite fast if you left some route trainers (give it Secret Power before it gets HJK), but I also think it's fine in B. We'll see how well it does in the E4, especially against Phoebe.
I did another Whismur run, this time with Mild Nature (+ SpA, - Def), and yeesh. The 1st five Gyms ran about the same (easy to level up, great at route clearing, middling to poor in major battles). The 6th Gym it still performed as well as ever (solo'd the whole thing as Lv 35 Loudred). However past there, it was missing its 1-2 shots vs many route trainers, which left it too vulnerable considering its poor bulk. Its Shadow Ball also dealt noticeably less damage vs Tate & Liza and Phoebe, often requiring one extra turn to nab a KO on their mons, which is 1 turn too many considering Exploud's frailty. I'm inclined to put Whismur in D tier. It's easy to level up and is a solid mixed attacker, but for how squishy it is it doesn't pack enough of a punch, even if only just barely.

Oh, also now I'm a believer of Sunny Day Solar Beam Oddish.
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