Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Lemingue said:
I wish there was an option to support a retest while also voting ban. I just like retests bro </3

I was surprised that torn-t wasn't mentioned in the survey. I'm not complaining or anything, I just expected it to be there with some of the discussion of it that happened before. Then again it got promptly shoved by the zama-c discussion (also surprised zama-h didn't show up, but there wasn't as much talk about it either so I guess its understandable it's off the tables right now).
Do you think Torn-T is broken? This might just be my dumb mid-ladder opinion, but I’ve never had any real problems with it. It’s one of the best pivots in the metagame, no doubt, but offensive sets seem pretty lacking in terms of coverage and power to me. Not to mention Hurricane misses all the damn time. Could someone explain if and why Torn-T is potentially broken enough to warrant a suspect?
To give this post a bit more substance, I’ll quickly share my opinions on the two mons in the survey.

:cinderace:
I’m not really sure about this one. Usually it was just about manageable, but the warping effect it had on teambuilding, forcing every defensive mon to run Rocky Helmet, wasn’t great and I prefer the metagame without it. I wouldn’t mind a retest, but I doubt it’ll be unbanned.

:zamazenta-crowned:
Zama-C is kind of ridiculous in my opinion, it’s insane base stats and defensive typing more than make up for it’s lack of recovery and reliable boosting move imo. Better players than me have already made compelling arguments as to why it’s too strong for OU, so I won’t go into it further. That said, at this point I think it should be tested just so that it will stop dominating the discussion. People will pushing for a test until there is one, so let’s just have one and put an end to it.
 
On the retests
:Cinderace: strong support for retest, and would very likely be voting unban
I feel that Cinderace's strength got severely warped by Urshifu SS and Magearna. Urshifu could break a lot of the mons that Cinderace had trouble busting through, while magearna, although broke on the special side, was a defensive monster, that meant that frailer threats were surpressed. With those 2 gone, the format has more options now to handle a Cinderace. Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T and Weavile, while not all able to swap in, can be brought in on a slow pivot/revenge and deal significant damage, if not outright KOing Cinderace, while outspeeding it, meaning that U turn, and in their case, sucker punch. Torn also has Regen allowing it to take hits, and recover the damage. It could get a cheesy knock off, and cripple cinderace's pivot game, while hurricane could net a cool KO if it has turned fighting for any reason. And then, on the defensive side, you have options like Hippowdon, Vincune, Mandibuzz, Tang (to an extent), Garchomp and Lando, to name a few, and each has options to handle a Cinderace, and even some of cinderace's partners in crime, like rillaboom and zeraora. Overall, I feel its a mistake not to give it its deserved retest, as that's why it was QB'd and not suspected.

:Zamazenta: opposed to suspect, and would vote keep it banned.
Way too good for OU. Brutal defensive stats, solid offensive stat, can boost said offensive stat, +1 defense to begin... With the caveat of no healing (not a problem when wish and healing wish exist)... Yeah,it has some defensive play, but those can be handled by teammates.
 
Do you think Torn-T is broken? This might just be my dumb mid-ladder opinion, but I’ve never had any real problems with it. It’s one of the best pivots in the metagame, no doubt, but offensive sets seem pretty lacking in terms of coverage and power to me. Not to mention Hurricane misses all the damn time. Could someone explain if and why Torn-T is potentially broken enough to warrant a suspect?
I agree, the pivot set is good because it can defog and check Rillaboom all game while not being a Magnezone victim but it lacks any real offensive presence because uninvested Torn-T doesn't hit that hard while I find the offensive sets to always be lacking a move not to mention how difficult setting up a nasty plot can be when Dragapult, Tapu Koko and Zeraora are everywhere. Torn-T is certainly a good pokemon in the metagame but compared to the monstrosities that have been rightfully banned like Magearna and Spectrier it is wholly manageable.

:cinderace:

I'm on the opinion that quickbanning Cinderace was a mistake. To me it was not Cinderace that forced teams to have defensive pokemon with rocky helmet but Cinderace's ability to pivot ad infinitum with the boots. Not to mention how its frequent partner in crime :magearna: was the single most oppressive offensive presence in the metagame and running Cinderace checks also meant running Magearna victims unless you were using a sand team. I would've liked to see a metagame with Cinderace but without Magearna and perhaps we would've seen that Cinderace on its own was perfectly fine. So I would welcome a re-test of the fire bunny as long as the mechanical bunny stays in the Uber realm.
 
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TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
I submitted my response to the questions, and here's my thoughts on the retests:

:cinderace: I'm not completely certain of Cinderace is broken, but would prefer it to stay banned as I think the new metagame is healthier with more Pokemon freed up in its absence. For instance, Slowking is no longer burdened with being a Water-type that doesn't check Cinderace, and Corviknight can be used more as a Defogger over other options. These Pokemon are great checks to premier threats of the post-Cinderace metagame like Lele and Heatran for the former and Garchomp and Rillaboom for the latter, and would be restricted if it were unbanned. Consequently, I would most likely vote ban in a retest.

:zamazenta_crowned: I strongly oppose any Zamazenta-C test. As I see it, it would not be so much a wall, but rather a combination of a fast Glastrier and a more offensive Tapu Fini: a fast (faster than Torn-T, Weavile and Cinderace) moderately strong attacker that doesn't really wall much but softchecks lots of Pokemon by preventing them from using their best moves, and can be an emergency switch in to a suprisingly wide variety of things, taking one hit and retaliating with its great coverage and speed, making it capable of forcing lots of trades and putting on lots of pressure. Lastly, while it's true Zamazenta-C doesn't have the best raw Attack stat due to its lack of item slot, it has two 100+ BP STAB moves without significant drawbacks, and decent coverage to compliment them. I predict the best Zamazenta set wouldn't involve Howl or RestTalk at all, you'd probably do this:

:ss/zamazenta_crowned:
Zamazenta-C @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang

The idea is to play it like Mega Swampert in rain: you outspeed and beat most of the metagame and what you can't 2HKO doesn't damage you enough to matter. There are some checks, but they're not as good as you might first think: Wild Charge 2HKOs Slowking, 252/4 Toxapex most of the time after Rocks, and has a chance to 2HKO Moltres if it becomes a thing again. Ice Fang 2HKOs Rocky Helmet Lando at -1 after Rocks and means you aren't helpless against Zapdos (especially if it loses Boots). You can even run Crunch for Aegislash. So yes, there are checks, and Slowbro is a counter, but it's not as simple as using any old Pokemon that resists its STAB moves, there would be significant shifts around it, and you have to be careful of switching into coverage. This might not seem too unhealthy, but what if I told you the list of attacks you can take? You've already likely seen the calcs about the STAB Earthquakes it survives, and it also does this:

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 84.3 - 99.6% - guaranteed 2HKO

That's a supereffective, Choice Band-boosted move that ignores the Defense boost and comes from the highest Attack stat in this generation. And if that weren't enough, Zamazenta outspeeds and OHKOes it back with even uninvested Close Combat. Please, Council, whatever you do as a result of this survey, do NOT retest Zamazenta-C, it's too fast and bulky for OU.
 
Do you think Torn-T is broken? This might just be my dumb mid-ladder opinion, but I’ve never had any real problems with it. It’s one of the best pivots in the metagame, no doubt, but offensive sets seem pretty lacking in terms of coverage and power to me. Not to mention Hurricane misses all the damn time. Could someone explain if and why Torn-T is potentially broken enough to warrant a suspect?
To give this post a bit more substance, I’ll quickly share my opinions on the two mons in the survey.
I don't think torn-t is broken (for now). I find it is a really good pivot and can deal with annoying pokemon (and even put a few holes on your team if you use it well), but like both said, its offensive capabilities have a limit.

I just though it'd be there since some people talked about it, and only having two pokemon to vote on felt a bit weird (we had a bunch before), but I assume that's just a reflection of the current metagame.

On another note: I voted indifferent on Zama-C because I personally don't think zama-c will be bad enough to drop to ou when tested, but maybe I should have voted differently, because now I just feel like "please just test it so we can move on". Whatever happens, happens.

If the metagame gets worse though I'm hittin yall with a stick :mad:
 
:cinderace:
Banning this thing was a godsend and helped to improve the tier in many ways. Opposed to a retest but even if it does get tested there's no way it's coming back. Exacerbates all the current issues with the HDB pivot spam meta to 11 and pushes us in the wrong direction for having a healthy and enjoyable tier. Every team would just regress to four fat + two pivots in ace, pult, or zeraora. The power level is also far above anything else in this tier.

:zamazenta:
I voted indifferent for similar reasons to above posters, I'd like to see it retested so people will stop complaining about it not being tested but I do think it will be too much for the tier. Would be cool if it was able to stay but I doubt it tbh.

Other stuff I'd like to see possibly addressed in the future is Pex, bc :toxapex: bad and I am of the opinion that it'll never be healthy in a tier without nukes like Z moves (I don't think it's broken, just unhealthy and negatively impacts the metagame.) Torn-T seems to be thought broken by a lot of skilled players; I've never been fond of using it bc it doesn't fit my usual team styles but I can see where they're coming from.

I don't know if there's anything that can be done about how unpunished pivoting is in the current metagame, but if there is something that the council thinks could be done I would love to see them propose it as I find the tier boring (but balanced) whenever I try to get into it more. Maybe the style of SS OU just isn't my thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and if so that's totally a me issue.
 

IPF

sundown
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Gonna keep this brief but figured I would chime in on the survey questions.
:cinderace:
Keep this mon banned. Frankly speaking the meta is much much healthier with this thing gone as it no longer forces 1-2 Rocky Helmet users per team, and defensive cores are no longer forced into clunkier structures (in addition to its fantastic matchup vs. hyper offense). In an already momentum based metagame, adding this thing would completely throw off the balance of everything and is a pointless exercise. We've seen what it can do, and it doesn't need to be tested again.

:zamazenta_crowned:
I'm not completely clued in on this one, however I do think that if there is decent support for it being tested it's worth a try. Unlike Cinderace we've never seen a metagame with it, so it would be something fresh, and would also do away with the absurd amount of theorymonning this thread holds. Meta is currently stable, I figure it's worth a shot, even if in all likelihood it will not be unbanned. Seeing the OU council be more proactive is a breath of fresh air as compared to what we were subjected to last generation, and tests like these do no harm in the long haul.

TL;DR: Don't retest Cinderace, give Zamazenta-C a chance
 
Guess I’ll chime in.

:ss/cinderace:
I may be a bit biased here, but I would prefer to keep this away from OU. This thing pretty much forced every team to run Rocky Helmet/Slowbro in order to not make it Ace bait, and even with that in mind, it could still put in loads of work. This thing was the absolute bane of slower teams without priority or a scarfer, in no part due to HDB and its great speed tier. Sure, it dissuades Rilla from mindlessly clicking Glide and brings some kind of speed control to the table, but is it worth bringing a mon that’s already been proven to be putting a stranglehold on the tier just for those two pros? Won’t delve into this as everything else has been said, but in short, please keep this rotting in Ubers.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Like some others here, I voted indifferent on this because while I’ve expressed my ideas on a retest here (tldr: I was against it), I guess it wouldn’t hurt to test it. Do I think that it’s still probably broken? Yes. Does that mean that I’m against the notion of retesting it? No, not really. I won’t regurgitate all the pro-ban arguments, cause you can just go back a few pages and see plenty for yourself, but sure, let’s give it a chance, it still has a few notable flaws such as no reliable recovery and a forced item slot, so maybe that’ll be enough? :psysly:
 
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i dont play OU much, but i have been lurking, and i suppose i should give my thoughts on these two.

:ss/cinderace:
As far as I’ve seen from the community, the tier has been FAR better without this thing forcing shitty Rocky helmet slowbros on every team. Just keep it out, nobody needs the damn thing. A suspect would just waste time for a mon that everyone knows is broken, and one that we’ve already given several chances.
This is like being in an unhealthy relationship with your ex and just when you’re gonna break up, they say “I’LL CHANGE, PLEASE!” even when you know they’ll stay the exact same level of scum.
Good riddance.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Now this thing on the other hand.
You can say all your, “Ooh! RestTalk scawy! Ooh! Future Sight bad! Ooh, too bulky!” Or whatever the circlejerky garbage excuse you people have for not giving this thing a test. We’ve never tested it out before, aside from shitty roomtours in which half the people don’t use the unbanned shit in the first fucking place, so why not? At worst, it’s just gonna be there for two weeks. And then we never have to think about it for the rest of the gen. That’s it! Is that such a bad thing to the point where anti-testers foam out of the mouth at the idea of their balanced meta being put on hold for all of two weeks? Almost sad, really.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
So yes, I agree that Cinderace is very good and difficult to deal with, but I don't necessarily feel like the meta is better off without it. FlamingVictini is easily one of the best SS players right now and he recently said on ima's stream that he didn't think that Cinderace should have been banned. He said that it required you to play and build differently (particularly using more Rocky Helmet to punish U-turn) but that he didn't consider Cinderace to be broken.
I just want to post one more thing for posterity, since I mentioned it before, but here is ima and FlamingVictini talking about Cinderace and the current meta. They actually had that conversation after I made my post, so I was initially referring to a different time that they were talking about Cinderace, but I feel like this segment of that video encapsulates their viewpoints well. They talk about the current meta for about 10 minutes and they both agree that retesting/unbanning Cinderace could improve the meta. I feel like even if you don't agree with their opinions, it's valuable to listen to two of the best SS players share their thoughts on relevant issues. FV makes a point about how Cinderace being an excellent Pokemon and having a somewhat centralizing effect on the tier wasn't really a bad thing because Cinderace was an important offensive check to many Pokemon, and I think that is an interesting argument. ima also mentions that Ben Gay has said that he never considered Cinderace banworthy, and while Ben Gay isn't as active in SS (although his team dumps have been very influential), I still feel like he's clearly one of the best minds Pokemon has ever seen and I hold his opinion in high regard. So overall, I just wanted to post that video because I think that everyone could benefit from hearing more top players' opinions on the meta and the potential of reintroducing Cinderace. ima also has an excellent stream so I recommend people hanging out there as well if they enjoyed that video.
 

AM

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LCPL Champion
Goodbye and Thanks I would haha your post but you seem like a good dude and that perspective is one of others not your own. Would rather not bring back Cinderace Volt-turns which were pretty cancerous to play and watch. I posted my thoughts in the survey and I'll probably leave it at that. I dont enjoy the meta either but I'm fine with accepting that and just waiting for dpp remakes since some people do like SS and fun is subjective.
 
Idk if this was talked beforehand, and I'm sorry if it was, but if a cinderace retest is considered, should it be before or after a Zama-c test?

I was thinking doing it after shield dog. If we do it before, cinderace doesn't drop, and then zama drops, people may feel like they could test it again to see how it'd work in a zama metagame.
Though some may think that we should see if cinderace works in a metagame before we introduce an ubers mon to it, and should have more priority.

It didn't feel like a sqsa question, apologies if it is
 
I’m wholeheartedly in favor of retesting Ace and personally believe it to be a healthy presence for the meta. In the previous survey that led to Ace and Gear’s quickbans, there was a statistically significant difference in the level of support for banning Ace vs. how much support there was for banning Gear. Because of this, I was quite unhappy to see that it didn’t receive a suspect test in the first place.

I was happy to see Magearna quickbanned, as the moves it gained in SS just proved to give it far too many options. But Cinderace occupied an important role as a breaker that also gained momentum for your team, while still being held in check or countered by a large number of extremely common threats. Even now, the majority of teams carry mons that check Cinderace - Garchomp, Lando, Slowbro, Hippo, and T Wave Dragapult are some examples. Not to mention the array of scarfers and naturally faster mons like Torn, Weavile and Zeraora that can revenge kill it or threaten it out with Knock Off and prevent it from getting out of control.

Cinderace was also very frequently paired with Specs / Scarf Magearna, which blew away most of Ace’s answers. They formed a phenomenal core. Other posters have been saying that we’ve already seen what Ace does in a meta, but we’ve never seen it without what may its best partner.

In addition, item displacement is pretty much omnipresent in OU. Cinderace is very strong with HDB, but it’s very likely to lose those boots over the course of a game, nuking its longevity.

For Ace not to be given a suspect test now after its quickban would be very disappointing, as I believe it would bring positive change to this stale, polarized meta. What harm could 2 weeks of it being allowed on the ladder do? At worst, it stays banned. But it could also prove to be a healthy addition to the tier, as it is now.
 
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People keep talking about the "positive changes" Cinderace brings to the tier, but what are those, exactly? We have plenty of wallbreakers that break what Cinderace could break, plenty of pivots that can enable what Cinderace enabled, plenty of fast mons that can control what Cinderace controlled. Hell, we aren't even that short on Grassy Glide resists. What positive changes does Cinderace bring to the tier?
 
Cinderace? You mean the mon with only 5 counters in the whole game with two of them being easy to wear down and one of them dies to FS? Yeah no, I don’t want this demon anywhere in OU especially due to how balanced the meta is rn.

As for Zamazenta. I think we should just retest it. Not that there is a specific reason, its just so that we don’t have to deal with 100 posts on why shield doge is healthy for the metagame. If Zama turns out to be healthy, great. A knock absorber with high speed that can check Weavile/Rilla is a worthy addition to the tier. If it turns out to be too much, just keep it in Ubers and lets never discuss this again
 
So here are my thoughts:

:cinderace: at first I wasn't 100% on board with the cinderace ban, but now that we're about a month removed from the ban, i think the meta is better off without it. Team building is a lot more open and there are a lot more things that are viable now that wouldn't be because of cinderace. We've seen enough of the cinderace meta, no need to retest.

:zamazenta-crowned: Now this one, on the other hand is a bit more tricky. I wish there was an option for supporting a test but leaning towards ban because that's how i feel. I personally think Zama is too powerful for OU, but I feel like testing it would be more productive than the tiresome speculation and endless calcs. There's no harm in testing it, so we might as well do it to get a definitive answer and put an end to all this circlejerky discussion.

Speaking of retests, I have a more controversial hot take, but I think i'll save that for another post.
 
People keep talking about the "positive changes" Cinderace brings to the tier, but what are those, exactly? We have plenty of wallbreakers that break what Cinderace could break, plenty of pivots that can enable what Cinderace enabled, plenty of fast mons that can control what Cinderace controlled. Hell, we aren't even that short on Grassy Glide resists. What positive changes does Cinderace bring to the tier?
It’s not the most ridiculously powerful wallbreaker or the fastest offensive pivot, but Cinderace offers a great combination of these traits that’s not seen on any other pokemon in SS OU. It’s a powerful breaker that’s also a pretty fast pivot. This gives it a unique role in a momentum-centric metagame where players frequently find it difficult to make progress.

Cinderace is also an offensive check to a number of high tier threats - significantly, Rillaboom and Kartana (+ Zone), both of which have surged in usage with Ace and Gear banned.

I believe that Cinderace’s impact on teambuilding would create positive changes throughout the meta. While a variety of playstyles are viable, each different style is very formulaic in its own way. Since the quickbans, certain defensive cores have risen to the top, able to check the vast majority of the metagame. One of the most prominent is Lando or Garchomp / Corviknight / Slowking - electric type check, Corv for grasses / SD Garchomp and Slowking for special attackers.

With Cinderace unbanned, we’ll see less of these mons and more Slowbro / Mandibuzz, for example. Slowbro and Mandibuzz then both can’t manage to deal with things like Heatran and Kyurem, and so on and so forth. Cinderace being unbanned would lessen teams’ ability to handle the metagame with a few 2-3 mon backbones. In turn, this opens up for more offensive builds not to have to run the same specific mons that can break these cores.

OU would benefit from an increased ability to make progress and I believe that Cinderace allows for that, with its presence affecting teambuilding in ways such that other breakers also benefit, not just get outclassed by the bunny
 
:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Now this thing on the other hand.
You can say all your, “Ooh! RestTalk scawy! Ooh! Future Sight bad! Ooh, too bulky!” Or whatever the circlejerky garbage excuse you people have for not giving this thing a test. We’ve never tested it out before, aside from shitty roomtours in which half the people don’t use the unbanned shit in the first fucking place, so why not? At worst, it’s just gonna be there for two weeks. And then we never have to think about it for the rest of the gen. That’s it! Is that such a bad thing to the point where anti-testers foam out of the mouth at the idea of their balanced meta being put on hold for all of two weeks? Almost sad, really.
It's like you've never even read this thread before. Most of those adamantly opposed to Zama-C in OU have actually advocated for a test at some point just to put the topic to rest. Also, Rest Talk? Who on earth would ever suggest such a horrible set? This would cut into its coverage far too much and ultimately defeat the purpose of ever using Zama-C in the first place. The room tours are a mixed bag. There is little reward to optimizing a team around Zama-C that can't be used in any meaningful games or tours. I'm all for testing it personally even though I feel it's too much. You incorrectly characterized just about every aspect of the discussion though. It's almost impressive.
 
Idk if this was talked beforehand, and I'm sorry if it was, but if a cinderace retest is considered, should it be before or after a Zama-c test?

I was thinking doing it after shield dog. If we do it before, cinderace doesn't drop, and then zama drops, people may feel like they could test it again to see how it'd work in a zama metagame.
Though some may think that we should see if cinderace works in a metagame before we introduce an ubers mon to it, and should have more priority.

It didn't feel like a sqsa question, apologies if it is
Entirely valid and good question IMO - I think that testing it after Zamazenta might be best, but it's hard to say for sure and probably can be argued either way. Both at the same time is a no-go since they'll probably skew each other's viability/usage/(non)brokenness.
 
Also, Rest Talk? Who on earth would ever suggest such a horrible set? This would cut into its coverage far too much and ultimately defeat the purpose of ever using Zama-C in the first place.
I’m sorry, I must’ve missed the part where I ACTUALLY said it was good, and wasn’t just mocking the schmucks who show calcs of a pokemon with piss poor power that sits around doing nothing compared to the offensive sets, which actually gets things done vs teams. It’s almost like i wasn’t serious and was just ridiculing them. Surprising, I know.

I’ve seen certain people hype up physically defensive or specially defensive Zama sets as if they were actually GOOD or something, as if having access to only 8 PP on both your STABs is a good thing or something. Yeah, have fun with anything with a resistance to your STABs! Or any pokemon with a semblance of bulk and access to recovery (see Hippowdon and Corviknight)
 
With Cinderace unbanned, we’ll see less of these mons and more Slowbro / Mandibuzz, for example. Slowbro and Mandibuzz then both can’t manage to deal with things like Heatran and Kyurem, and so on and so forth. Cinderace being unbanned would lessen teams’ ability to handle the metagame with a few 2-3 mon backbones. In turn, this opens up for more offensive builds not to have to run the same specific mons that can break these cores.
So your idea of a better metagame is to force people to use suboptimal options that render them unable to properly check enough metagame threats to be consistent? (I am not claiming that Cinderace does this, because it doesn't; it'd just force different 3-mon cores. We know this because we saw it in the metagame after Spectrier's ban. You can be all "oh but Magearna" but, let's be real, people use the same things to check Magearna as Tapu Lele and Latios, and honestly, even Kyurem. Its didn't really change building much outside of eliminating Magearna as an option for your own team, which is, to be fair, a very large change, but that's irrelevant to this post) That... doesn't really make sense. Why would you want to remove consistency? Because consistency is boring? Do you really want to reintroduce an uncounterable Pokemon to the metagame just because you think the current one's boring? And don't act like Cinderace would encourage more offensive diversity; since its ban, we've seen new faces like Scizor, Victini, Slowking, Magnezone, and more, that Cinderace invalidated one way or another. Cinderace being such a good speed control option invalidates a lot more offensive options than the restructured cores would.
Also, I like how the core you give as an example of the current metagame's staleness literally would not have to change outside of maybe swapping Tangrowth for Slowbro in order to handle Cinderace while still being solid against the rest of the metagame. A real shake-up, that one.
 

ViZar

your toast is burned
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Let's about the bunny and the dog in the room.

:ss/Cinderace:
My opinion on Cinderace hasn't changed at all. I still think it's too much for OU atm. It's really strong and really fast with STAB on every move and some nice flexibility in Bulk Up and coverage, like Zen Headbutt, Electro Ball and Gunk Shot. It does have some kind of 4MSS, but even if it doesn't have the one move against Check A, it can at least 1v1 Check B. Also this Pokémon is easy to pair with Pokémon that can beat its checks.

Tapu Koko helps out against Waters like Toxapex, Slowbro and Tapu Fini with the added bonus of having a Voltturn core, while Urshifu-R removes the need for HJK while overwhelming Slowbro and Toxapex, espescially since Cinderace doesn't need HJK necessarily and can run Electro Ball or Zen Headbutt instead.

I don't think it has a place atm, but we could potantially get there.


:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
When Cinderace is too much atm, then Zama-C is too much for eternity. This thing may have flaws that make it look balanced, but its good traits make up for them. Reasons you've heard before, but 130 Atk is really fucking good even without a boosting item. Do you know how much damage Cinderace does with a STAB 70 BP move and 116 Atk? Now imagine that but with 130 Atk and CC. Admittingly, this isn't a fair comparison, but it should give you an idea of how strong this is. Also just because Toxapex can check it, doesn't mean it's manageable. Many Pokémon are checked by Toxapex, but that doesn't make them bad and you can play around it.

It's also very bulky. I don't care if it doesn't have recovery. Garchomp, Landorus-T, Dragapult and many others don't have it either, but they are still reliable hit takers and damage dealers. Also, there is stuff like WishPort, Healing Wish and a tiny little ability that is really common, which is called Grassy Surge. You know, the ability that is effectively Leftovers and a removal to an Earthquake weakness. Sure, those strategies aren't flawless and you can play aroung them and prevent them from happening, but even if you don't pull a WishPort off, Zama-C is still bulkier than Pex (and we all now how frustrating it can be in a 1v1) with a 4x Stealth Rocks weakness.

Last but not least, it's really fast. Like, faster than Tornadus-Therian, which is already considered fast and it is only outsped by Tapu Koko, Dragapult, Zeraora and Regieleki. Which means that it can threaten out fast offensive Pokémon that happend to be slower than it.


Now, I have to be fair and speak about the drawbacks those two have.
:cinderace: Cinderace, as mentioned, has a bit of a 4MSS, which can really bite it when it gets walled by a Pokémon, that you have to chance to kill. It's frailty also plays a huge part and it is sometimes frustrating to get it in safetly.
:zamazenta-crowned: Like I said, I don't think its lack of recovery is enough reason to unban it, but it really sucks that it can't even run Leftovers. Also, I might have overreacted on calling 130 Atk a good attack stat, and yeah I still think that, but it misses out on a few KOes which is frustrating. Also it's movepool isn't so hot either. I think the best sets would have something like STABs, Wild Charge and Ice Fang. The two latter moves are garbage. Wild Charge makes it bulk worse and Ice Fang doesn't work well with its attacking prowess.


Last thing I want to mention, is the Metagame. Last time I talked about Zama-C (in my dumb rushed 50 words or so post), I talked about how it would ruin the balance of the metagame it has and the fact that I completely forgot about is that a balanced metagame is more of a reason to test something.


TL;DR
Cinderace is too much for OU atm, giving its power, speed and versatiliy, while Zama-C is just ridiculous. Those two have their drawbacks, but I think the good traits outshine the flaws.

Eventhough, I don't like either test suspects, I wouldn't mind having a suspect, giving the state of the meta we are currently in. Also getting reqs for once and voting on stuff, could be nice.
I'm not very fond of that idea, but a part of me wants to see OU burn, so let's do a test. I might be wrong and that would teach me a leason on not being so pessimistic on topics like this.

Let's go for it :wynaut:
 
Real zama meme.jpg

While I do not have strong opinions regarding the suspect of Zamazenta-C, I must state why a Cinderace suspect is a waste of time and an unban would make the metagame less fun. I must preface this by stating I am by no means a great player, staying on mid to high ladder; however, the vast majority of the OU player base is not at a 1800+ rating or dominating in tournaments so we must consider how suspects/unbans will impact gameplay for filthy casuals.

Let's start with comparing my previous survey and current survey answers. I rated the Cinderace + Magearna metagame as a six of out ten and put competitiveness at about a four (if I remember correctly) and put the current metagame at about a 9 (though it is more of a high 8) and put competitiveness at an 8. The post Cinderace meta is certainly more fun in both gameplay and, my personal favorite, teambuilding. Gameplay as I recall revolved around Cinderace coming in and bonking shit and choosing its own counters along with other things mentioned by other users in the thread. This was of course exacerbated by HDB, but that is a discussion for another day (one we will need to have if Megas can absorb Knock Offs again). I am not going to go into too much detail here as I need just enough to post a shitty meme I made in Google Slides. Teambuilding is far less restrictive now than it was back then since now you don't need 7-8 Rocky Helmet users (and a fuckton of Magearna answers which was honestly worse than ace). One example cited was the rise of Slowking in the current meta when Slowbro was so powerful just because it was the best counter to Cinderace, only losing to Electro Ball. Of course teambuilding is still somewhat restricting due to Torn-T, but I think it is manageable.

I also answered that I would support a Zamazenta-C suspect for the reasons presented above.

tl:dr, Keep Cinderace banned until at least Gliscor comes back
 
I made some pretty long posts defending zamazenta-c tests before so I think I'll drop my 2c

At the very start of Crown Tundra I think Zamazenta-C would have been a fine unban, its impact on the tier would have been less than something like Genesect and Zygarde which were also unbanned. However in the current OU, I'm not as certain. While defensive counterplay still exists (Slowbro, Toxapex, Zapdos), people aren't already running redundant checks to fighting-types on their teams anyways. Mons like Moltres and Buzzwole have dropped off a lot since the Pheromosa and Urshifu bans, and they would also have been among the best checks to Zamazenta-C if it was allowed at the time as well. Unbanning Zamazenta-C would see a recentralization, to some extent, of the meta towards those Fighting-type checks. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, it will definitely have a more pronounced impact on the tier, thus making it a riskier unban. Offensive counterplay to Zamazenta-C is more dire than before, too. The best answers would be wearing it down with Volt Switch from fast pivots like Tapu Koko and Zeraora before taking it out, or maybe Specs Pult can take it out if weakened. Rising offensive threats like Weavile and established threats like Rillaboom would be absolutely stuffed. Compared to a few months ago, where Pheromosa and Spectrier formed the basis of OU's offense, both of which being much more capable at revenging Zamazenta-C, especially CB Pheromosa.

Basically, the point is, the time to test Zamazenta-C while having the least impact has already come and gone. If it were unbanned now it would have far more impact on the tier, and if anyone is advocating for a Zamazenta-C test based on arguments formulated months ago I suggest you rethink your position to some extent. I'm not even saying it shouldn't be tested necessarily (it still is fairly easy to wall and has much of the same flaws) but it would be much more unsafe as it would have been at the start of Crown Tundra, while OU was at a higher power level. I'm not going to come out for or against testing it though, mainly because my engagement with OU has been less and less, but we should all be aware that the meta has shifted since the last time this was seriously discussed.
 

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