Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Alright I'm gonna throw it out there and say it. I think Veil/Brightpowder should be banned.

On paper/statistically is it overpowered? No it is not at all. However it has the power to completely turn the tide of a battle with RNG especially when combined with Substitute.

Even more so I'd go on to say it is completely uncompetitive. I know there's RNG related things in battles, chances to be paralyzed, crit and so on. However, evasion boosting moves are already banned. Moody is mostly banned because of the chance of getting am evasion boost with sub or protect and then snowballing there.

Hell there is already precedent of banning veil in previous gens and besides chomp (who's already got another great ability.) No mon will really ever miss Veil.

So yeah ban it, end the rng fest that's Veil/brightpowder and let's move on with the metagame.
Slight correction, Moody does no longer boost evasion in gen 8.

However this definitely is something that should be discussed, evasion boosting is inherently uncompetitive and can cause stupid snowball sweeps especially from the likes of Garchomp.
 
Alright I'm gonna throw it out there and say it. I think Veil/Brightpowder should be banned.

On paper/statistically is it overpowered? No it is not at all. However it has the power to completely turn the tide of a battle with RNG especially when combined with Substitute.

Even more so I'd go on to say it is completely uncompetitive. I know there's RNG related things in battles, chances to be paralyzed, crit and so on. However, evasion boosting moves are already banned. Moody is mostly banned because of the chance of getting am evasion boost with sub or protect and then snowballing there.

Hell there is already precedent of banning veil in previous gens and besides chomp (who's already got another great ability.) No mon will really ever miss Veil.

So yeah ban it, end the rng fest that's Veil/brightpowder and let's move on with the metagame.
I absolutely agree with this. Sand veil is just ridiculously good. Garchomp is already among the most dangerous mons in the tier. It dodging any hits under sand is just straight up bs. I've both won and lost games because of this ability. While veil chomp is a lot of fun, it just makes me hate this game
 
Sand Veil/Bright Powder is not broken. It is too inconsistent to be a truly troubling presence in the metagame.
However, I agree that you can make a strong case for it being uncompetitive, and I believe that it should’ve been gone way back when Evasion Clause was first established instead of living on in its current form. I support a ban of Sand Veil and Bright Powder on the basis of being uncompetitive and not adding anything to the metagame other than a troll strategy. I also get that this would come relatively low on a list of priorities for the ever-developing metagame, but I will gladly support its removal at any time.
 
Sand Veil/Bright Powder is not broken. It is too inconsistent to be a truly troubling presence in the metagame.
However, I agree that you can make a strong case for it being uncompetitive, and I believe that it should’ve been gone way back when Evasion Clause was first established instead of living on in its current form. I support a ban of Sand Veil and Bright Powder on the basis of being uncompetitive and not adding anything to the metagame other than a troll strategy. I also get that this would come relatively low on a list of priorities for the ever-developing metagame, but I will gladly support its removal at any time.
That's exactly what I mean.

On paper it is not broken at all and statistically it is not broken. However due to it turning games into RNG fests and sometimes allowing pokemon like Garchomp able to snowball entirely because you missed a 100% accurate move? Well that's just stupid.

I also advocate for the banning of snow veil. Not because it's broken but for consistency sake and the fact that it too is uncompetitive.
 
Sand Veil/Bright Powder is not broken. It is too inconsistent to be a truly troubling presence in the metagame.
However, I agree that you can make a strong case for it being uncompetitive, and I believe that it should’ve been gone way back when Evasion Clause was first established instead of living on in its current form. I support a ban of Sand Veil and Bright Powder on the basis of being uncompetitive and not adding anything to the metagame other than a troll strategy. I also get that this would come relatively low on a list of priorities for the ever-developing metagame, but I will gladly support its removal at any time.
I would say that bright powder is far less broken than sand veil, as (imo) the opportunity cost for it is noticeably more.
Both are definitely uncompetitive tho
 
Lol Pokemon is an RNG fest. Sand Veil / Bright Powder effect maybe 1% of games and of them decide maybe a fraction of that. Crits, Scald burns, Ice Beam freeze, team matchup, literally just fucking missing, and so on effect the game infinitely more than a 10% evasion boost at the cost of an item slot. If you don't like RNG play a different game.

But if we're talking about should-be-banned hot-takes imo Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Block, Infestation, Magma Storm, and so on are blatantly uncompetitive and should be included under Arena Trap + Shadow Tag clause. I can't for the life of me think of any positive effect these moves have on the meta.
 
Lol Pokemon is an RNG fest. Sand Veil / Bright Powder effect maybe 1% of games and of them decide maybe a fraction of that. Crits, Scald burns, Ice Beam freeze, team matchup, literally just fucking missing, and so on effect the game infinitely more than a 10% evasion boost at the cost of an item slot. If you don't like RNG play a different game.

But if we're talking about should-be-banned hot-takes imo Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Block, Infestation, Magma Storm, and so on are blatantly uncompetitive and should be included under Arena Trap + Shadow Tag clause. I can't for the life of me think of any positive effect these moves have on the meta.
Fwiw, (based on last month's usage stats, it's probably more popular now w/ mag and ace gone), Sand Veil Garchomp alone has about 1.3% usage in the 1695 stats and just under 1% usage in the 1825 stats. Add to this whatever usage bright powder gets/other sand veil mons/etc etc
Also worth noting that (at least in principle) usage does not determine whether something is banned or not, what matters is whether it is broken and I feel like bright powder and sand veil are.
 
Things I've always thought were simultaneously true: That it just is plumb weird Evasion Clause isn't simply "You may not boost your Evasion." - and that Brightpowder/Sand Veil aren't relevant enough to warrant much of a discussion but being that other folks have started the conversation again I'd figure I'd add my voice to the ring.

My perspective on rulings isn't much relevant either with limited playing and watching this generation but a slippery slope argument is often used against complex bans and yet the inherent wording of allowing -some- evasion effects feels a slippery slope in of itself.

Is it Evasion Boosting that functions in some undesirable way? I'd reckon most folks would say that the very concept of Evasion itself is the problem.
Yet we have access to Brightpowder and Sand Veil on the ladder. So it's legal to increase Some amount of Evasion, Somehow. Which begs the question...
Why not have it limited to just one use of an Evasion Boosting move?
Does it break the game at 10% evasion? 30% evasion? 50%? 90%?

This partial ban on Evasion opens up the question on whether and when Evasion truly gets unbalanced and I don't think that's a conversation worth having.
That's not what Evasion is banned for, I don't personally believe.
Pokemon is a game of RNG and risk management but Evasion is a removable element that introduces unreliability. Unlike crits which are a constant unpredictable part of the game, Evasion is completely optional under a gentleman's agreement - like Smogon's ruleset and has a much more pronounced effect on whether or not a given game would have gone given a rematch than most other moves preventing effects in my opinion through being a self targeted move that negates the opponent's directly offensive options.

If the attempt is do the best we can to offer the better player consistently more success so we can call ourselves truly a best effort competitive version of an uncompetitively random game, do we not owe it to ourselves and our tournament matches to remove access to this unreliable element that can be removed without much cost in the way of limiting other strategies?
 

ausma

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Hey everyone! I hope you all have been doing well lately.

I just completed my first YouTube video going over what I believe to be the top 10 best Pokemon in the tier currently. For the sake of discussion, I'd like to list those Pokemon off here in a more consumable medium, and reinforce my beliefs by contextualizing what makes these Pokemon, as a whole, so powerful.

For the sake of my point below, I'm going to label each of my top 10 with one of four different markers. I'll explain below.

(P) = Pivot
(H) = Hazard Setter
(K) = Knock Off
(W) = Wallbreaker

10: Slowking (P / W? [Futureport])
The best specially defensive pivot in the tier; superior to Slowbro since it does a considerably better job at checking rising threat Tapu Lele and pre-existing special wallbreakers such as Nidoking. Similar to Slowbro, packs Future SIght + Teleport + Regenerator, and reinforces bulky offense/balance cores incredibly well with its defensive typing, bulk, and one-of-a-kind utility.
9: Rillaboom (P / K / W)
An incredibly fierce wallbreaker and unrivaled revenge killer with switch-ins that can be easily exploited with Knock Off or U-turn. Incredibly powerful wincon and wallbreaker that also provides a unique form of utility in the form of Grassy Terrain alongside its access to U-turn, Knock Off, and Grassy Glide, making it a premier offensive staple.
8: Tapu Koko (P)
A top offensive pivot primed with an amazing defensive and offensive typing that lets it check Tornadus-T and Zapdos incredibly well, while pressuring Mandibuzz/Corviknight to a great effect. Secondary STAB in Dazzling Gleam puts down a lot of pressure against the tier's Thunderbolt switch-ins, such as Garchomp and Landorus-T, and has U-turn to take advantage of those switch-ins. Has access to longevity to reliably exploit its defensive typing.
7: Ferrothorn (H / K)
The best Spikes setter in the tier, backed with a phenomenal defensive typing and the ability to pressure common forms of hazard removal with Leech Seed and Knock Off, making it a premier wall and a hazard stacking staple.
6: Corviknight (P)
The best Defog user in the tier equipped with an amazing defensive typing that lets it beat a majority of the tier's Stealth Rock setters, alongside access to Pressure, great coverage options, and U-turn to make it a versatile pivot and hazard removing option. Has access to a dope Bulk Up set too.
5: Heatran (H / W)
Incredibly polarizing option in Magma Storm to trap key walls like Blissey and Toxapex, alongside neat techs to exploit Magma Storm's uncontested niche. Magma Storm is a very fun move (also is a great stealth rock setter i guess)
4: Garchomp (H / W)
One of the best wallbreakers and wincons in the tier, aided alongside a great offensive and defensive typing. Great Stealth Rock setter too since it does such a great job pressuring a majority of the tier's forms of removal.
3: Landorus-T (P / H / K / W)
Hi, Phil Swift here with Flex Tape! The super-strong waterproof tape! That can instantly patch, bond, seal, and repair! Flex tape is no ordinary tape; its triple thick adhesive virtually welds itself to the surface, instantly stopping the toughest leaks. Leaky pipes can cause major damage, but Flex Tape grips on tight and bonds instantly! Plus, Flex Tape’s powerful adhesive is so strong, it even works underwater! Now you can repair leaks in pools and spas in water without draining them! Flex Tape is perfect for marine, campers and RVs! Flex Tape is super strong, and once it's on, it holds on tight! And for emergency auto repair, Flex Tape keeps its grip, even in the toughest conditions! Big storms can cause big damage, but Flex Tape comes super wide, so you can easily patch large holes. To show the power of Flex Tape, I sawed this boat in half! And repaired it with only Flex Tape! Not only does Flex Tape’s powerful adhesive hold the boat together, but it creates a super strong water tight seal, so the inside is completly dry! Yee-doggy! Just cut, peel, stick and seal! Imagine everything you can do with the power of Flex Tape!
2: Dragapult (P / W)
The best offensive pivot in the tier, primed with an amazing offensive typing, borderline uncontested speed tier, and amazing utility that lets it perform incredibly well as speed control, an offensive pivot, and as a top tier enabler.
1: Tornadus-T (P / K / W)
Always able to force progress and be a polarizing dingbat while it's at it thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Regenerator, Nasty Plot-boosted Hurricanes, and Knock Off.

In any case, while this list is mostly my own opinion, I'd like to emphasize how a lot of these Pokemon are, generally, less inherently defensively inclined and more based in enabling. I made an observation in a previous post about how offensively inclined this metagame was, and yet still had a gigantic wealth of teambuilder versatility regarding what could be run and in what ways. Pretty much all my top 10 Pokemon provide those opportunities; they can be pivots, hazard setters, or even wallbreakers in of themselves, which you can see from the markers above (amazingly, 7 of these 10 are pivots).

They are able to provide a wealth of great utility for offensive teams in such a way that encourages and rewards a player's ability to position themselves and their wincons well. I find that to be incredible, and yet another sign of how great of a state the metagame currently is in.

What do you think of these observations? Do you think this metagame is more offensively inclined, and if so, in what ways? I'd love to hear what you all have to say.
 
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Hey everyone! I hope you all have been doing well lately.

I just completed my first YouTube video going over what I believe to be the top 10 best Pokemon in the tier currently. For the sake of discussion, I'd like to list those Pokemon off here in a more consumable medium, and reinforce my beliefs by contextualizing what makes these Pokemon, as a whole, so powerful.

For the sake of my point below, I'm going to label each of my top 10 with one of four different markers. I'll explain below.

(P) = Pivot
(H) = Hazard Setter
(K) = Knock Off
(W) = Wallbreaker

10: Slowking (P / W? [Futureport])
The best specially defensive pivot in the tier; superior to Slowbro since it does a considerably better job at checking rising threat Tapu Lele and pre-existing special wallbreakers such as Nidoking. Similar to Slowbro, packs Future SIght + Teleport + Regenerator, and reinforces bulky offense/balance cores incredibly well with its defensive typing, bulk, and one-of-a-kind utility.
9: Rillaboom (P / K / W)
An incredibly fierce wallbreaker and unrivaled revenge killer with switch-ins that can be easily exploited with Knock Off or U-turn. Incredibly powerful wincon and wallbreaker that also provides a unique form of utility in the form of Grassy Terrain alongside its access to U-turn, Knock Off, and Grassy Glide, making it a premier offensive staple.
8: Tapu Koko (P)
A top offensive pivot primed with an amazing defensive and offensive typing that lets it check Tornadus-T and Zapdos incredibly well, while pressuring Mandibuzz/Corviknight to a great effect. Secondary STAB in Dazzling Gleam puts down a lot of pressure against the tier's Thunderbolt switch-ins, such as Garchomp and Landorus-T, and has U-turn to take advantage of those switch-ins. Has access to longevity to reliably exploit its defensive typing.
7: Ferrothorn (H / K)
The best Spikes setter in the tier, backed with a phenomenal defensive typing and the ability to pressure common forms of hazard removal with Leech Seed and Knock Off, making it a premier wall and a hazard stacking staple.
6: Corviknight (P)
The best Defog user in the tier equipped with an amazing defensive typing that lets it beat a majority of the tier's Stealth Rock setters, alongside access to Pressure, great coverage options, and U-turn to make it a versatile pivot and hazard removing option. Has access to a dope Bulk Up set too.
5: Heatran (H / W)
Incredibly polarizing option in Magma Storm to trap key walls like Blissey and Toxapex, alongside neat techs to exploit Magma Storm's uncontested niche. Magma Storm is a very fun move (also is a great stealth rock setter i guess)
4: Garchomp (H / W)
One of the best wallbreakers and wincons in the tier, aided alongside a great offensive and defensive typing. Great Stealth Rock setter too since it does such a great job pressuring a majority of the tier's forms of removal.
3: Landorus-T (P / H / K / W)
Hi, Phil Swift here with Flex Tape! The super-strong waterproof tape! That can instantly patch, bond, seal, and repair! Flex tape is no ordinary tape; its triple thick adhesive virtually welds itself to the surface, instantly stopping the toughest leaks. Leaky pipes can cause major damage, but Flex Tape grips on tight and bonds instantly! Plus, Flex Tape’s powerful adhesive is so strong, it even works underwater! Now you can repair leaks in pools and spas in water without draining them! Flex Tape is perfect for marine, campers and RVs! Flex Tape is super strong, and once it's on, it holds on tight! And for emergency auto repair, Flex Tape keeps its grip, even in the toughest conditions! Big storms can cause big damage, but Flex Tape comes super wide, so you can easily patch large holes. To show the power of Flex Tape, I sawed this boat in half! And repaired it with only Flex Tape! Not only does Flex Tape’s powerful adhesive hold the boat together, but it creates a super strong water tight seal, so the inside is completly dry! Yee-doggy! Just cut, peel, stick and seal! Imagine everything you can do with the power of Flex Tape!
2: Dragapult (P / W)
The best offensive pivot in the tier, primed with an amazing offensive typing, borderline uncontested speed tier, and amazing utility that lets it perform incredibly well as speed control, an offensive pivot, and as a top tier enabler.
1: Tornadus-T (P / K / W)
Always able to force progress and be a polarizing dingbat while it's at it thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Regenerator, Nasty Plot-boosted Hurricanes, and Knock Off.

In any case, while this list is mostly my own opinion, I'd like to emphasize how a lot of these Pokemon are, generally, less defensively inclined and more based in enabling. I made an observation in a previous post about how offensively inclined this metagame was, and yet still had a gigantic wealth of versatility in what could be run and in what ways. A lot of my top 10 Pokemon provide exactly that; they can be pivots, hazard setters, or even wallbreakers in of themselves, which you can see from the markers above (amazingly, 7 of these 10 are pivots).

They are able to provide a wealth of great utility for offensive teams in such a way that encourages and rewards a player's ability to position themselves and their wincons well. I find that to be incredible, and yet another sign of how great of a state the metagame currently is in.

What do you think of these observations? Do you think this metagame is more offensively inclined, and if so, in what ways? I'd love to hear what you all have to say.
The first thing I'll say is that I think you need to increase the volume. Even with both youtube and my laptop volume already maxed it's hard for me to hear what you're saying
 
If we’re discussing banning evasion mechanics, can I ask why Acupressure is still legal? It’s a move that raises a random stat by two stages and can raise evasion and accuracy. Obviously, it’s a total meme and no serious player would use it, since it’s incredibly unreliable, but I did recently lose a game on ladder to an Acupressure Malamar because it lucked out and got two evasion boosts with its first two Acupressures, making it near impossible to hit. Like Veil+Bright Powder, it’s inconsistent and probably not statistically broken, but the way it works is inherently uncompetitive. I agree that Veil should be banned, and maybe Bright Powder too, but for consistency let’s just remove any and all ways of increasing evasion. It won’t have a massive effect on the tier, but it’s incredibly frustrating to lose to something that you can‘t control or account for risk wise.
 
Shout out to the time my Contrary Shuckle won a game because it got an evasion boost from being Defoged.

Can we also throw in King's Rock (and I think there's another item to flinches too?) to the "I know it's kinda shitty but it should still be banned" pile? No one would mourn the loss of Accupressure or Bright powder either.

Sand veil (and I guess Snow Cloak) are a bit different because they're situational, but every pokemon who has one of these abilities can run something else. Although it would be amusing that 2 of Dugtrio's 3 abilities were banned.
 
Ight you guys are getting way too ban happy fucking hell. Chill the hell out. Kings rock is only useful on mons who have skill link (more importantly, Cloyster) who isnt even meta nor is breaking it. If it has kings rock it has to give up Sash or Power herb which is infinitely more useful than Kings rock
>Mfw I said power herb
Meant the other herb
 
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Bright Powder Sand Veil Garchomp<Leftovers Sand Veil Garchomp.
Which is better, forcing your opponent to hit with an 80% accurate move at least 5 times to break all your Subs, or a 72% accurate move 4 times (3 times if you've taken any chip, such as hazards)? Also Leftovers is way more useful outside Sandstorm.
You're welcome.

For those who are really interested in this, there was already a PR thread on this topic:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...on-weather-abilities-in-generation-8.3675483/
Seems to have been left open and unresolved, but basically IMHO:
Bright Powder is not an issue. The fact Hydro Pump is twice as likely to miss naturally than any Bright Powder-affected move should speak volumes. As should the fact that the odds of getting two Bright Powder misses in a row are literally 1%. It's just a bad item.
Sand Veil is not an issue in of itself. You don't see Sand Veil Dugtrio or Gabite in OU, unlike with previous Ability bans, where It was demonstrated that literally NFEs could abuse them almost as well as FEs. It should be noted that every past gen that has banned Sand Veil had perma-sand, which makes Sand Veil an altogether different prospect. The only thing that makes Sand Veil potentially problematic is the unique combination of traits Garchomp has: Scale Shot, Swords Dance, high ATK and good speed, passable bulk, so if anything is on the chopping block here, it should be Chomp itself.

Turning all moves into Hydro Pump is an issue, but keep in mind this is outdone by simply clicking Minimise once (and so is Bright Powder+Sand Veil). Evasion Clause is in place because of the effect evasion-boosters have when used to boost multiple stages, which literally turns the battle into iterative coin tossing, and the only way out is phazing. Sand Veil being capable of being stalled out IMO is important, and what makes it banworthy in past gens is the lack of this.
 
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No one is arguing that these items are better. Quite the opposite. They're trash.

But they are of the nature that a) they do nothing in the vast majority of games and then b) they occasionally pluck wins out of nowhere

In the same vein as OHKO moves, Double Team and all the other things we ban for being uncompetitive. These may be the less effective options but we wouldn't allow a less accurate OHKO move would we?
 
No one is arguing that these items are better. Quite the opposite. They're trash.

But they are of the nature that a) they do nothing in the vast majority of games and then b) they occasionally pluck wins out of nowhere

In the same vein as OHKO moves, Double Team and all the other things we ban for being uncompetitive. These may be the less effective options but we wouldn't allow a less accurate OHKO move would we?
Yeah, but Double Team is actually an effective strat. Same with OHKO moves. Both have several competitive applications and see usage in AG depending on the state of the metagame.
Double Team lets you boost evasion multiple stages. Enough to where it gets to the point that moves are more likely to miss than hit. This is what makes FullPass viable in AG.
OHKO moves are extremely ridiculous stallbreakers and check-bypassers in general. If you have multiple opportunities to fire off an OHKO move you're getting at least one KO.
The problem is both that these strats are so luck-based and coin-tossy AND that their counterplay is way too hard to feasibly fit into viable teams consistently (Study, phazing, sure-hits etc).
Bright Powder, on the other hand, is just garbage. No matter how you look at it.
 
No one is arguing that these items are better. Quite the opposite. They're trash.

But they are of the nature that a) they do nothing in the vast majority of games and then b) they occasionally pluck wins out of nowhere

In the same vein as OHKO moves, Double Team and all the other things we ban for being uncompetitive. These may be the less effective options but we wouldn't allow a less accurate OHKO move would we?
I'm not sure this logic works. As a dumb example, I sometimes run Dazzling Gleam on my Starmie. I rarely ever click it, so in most games it does nothing. But a bulky Hydreigon switches in expecting to tank a Surf/Psyshock gets obliterated, plucking the win out of nowhere.

That's not to say I think shit like Brightpowder is good, its generally not (i feel if any accuracy modifiers are gonna deserve a ban then its Sand Veil/Snowcloak but I'd argue that's unfair too), but I don't think this is the route to go down.

Like, Hydro Pump is a useful move over Surf for securing OHKOs/2HKOs. However, that's a way less accurate option, similar to the reduction in accuracy from bright powder. At what point do we accept that some of this is part of the game and that we can't streamline it?
 
Can we also throw in King's Rock (and I think there's another item to flinches too?) to the "I know it's kinda shitty but it should still be banned" pile? No one would mourn the loss of Accupressure or Bright powder either.
Highly disagree with this, flinching is entirely different than boosting your evasiveness stat.
First of all, as said by OneSmogonCopyer , the only inherent abusers of King's rock in the metagame at the moment are Cloyster and possibly Cincinno, which amount to a flinching chance of 41%. The huge difference here is that there is sufficient counterplay to flinching strategies.
Simply outspeeding the opponent/using a priority move eliminates this chance effect, which isn't the case for evasiveness.

Starting to ban flinching effects also leads to a dangerous slippery slope, which could target things like Jirachi and Togekiss, which are deemed to have uncompetitive strategies, but have sufficient counterplay and are manageable in the metagame.

TLDR: Flinching should not be compared to Evasiveness, since it has actual counterplay.
 
Bright Powder has an extremely steep opportunity cost. I honestly don't think it matters either way whether it's banned or not because nothing will ever viably run it. Y'all are suddenly trying to build a metagame where certain very unlikely random elements are totally forbidden, but others are completely fine (Chandelure's Inferno is 5x more likely to activate and could probably clutch a game or two). It's arbitrary and mostly pointless because, again, Bright Powder is very bad.
 
You guys remember when this thread wasn’t talking about evasion? Was a good time tbh, let’s get back to that. Thanks
but then we were talking about... Zamazenta right? we'll just find another thing to get trapped in endless loops about

anyway

let's talk about Urshifu-RS.

I think this pokemon is a huge benefactor of the current metachanges, as it can take advantage of Slowking and Toxapex being the main bulky waters w/ future sight support. I really think this pokemon is a huge meta threat rn.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
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NU Leader
I mean it's a legitimate inquiry Finch.

It's also better than discussing the same 5 points about Zam-C for another 12 pages while waiting for it to be unbanned.
It is a legitimate inquiry, but it is not a legitimate inquiry that most posters in this thread are capable of coherently arguing about and this was reflected within the posts. I would be happy to discuss this in a PR thread or via PMs where it is contained and quality controlled a little, but I have discretion as a moderator to moderate this thread when it is derailing, posts are getting out of hand, and etc. and I used it here.

The fact that metagame discussion this generation is so open to suspect and ban talk as is largely is because I believe in transparency and read every single post made about these matters, which has never been the case previously. I am happy this is the case, but this is still largely a privilege and it comes alongside checks and rules much like posting in any other thread. I’d like to think this is in line with just about any other moderator asking posters to change topics in any other thread, so there is not much of an issue as far as I’m concerned.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
NU Leader
There are dozens of viable pokemon to discuss. If you don’t want to talk about Zama, there are so many other topics to post about and I can even provide some myself if you guys would prefer. I don’t view the conversation previously focusing on that as an issue or a limiting factor, for what it’s worth.
 
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