Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

I know this is more a question than a statement, but I've been meaning to bring this up for a while and I think this goes past the scale of the simple questions thread:

What exactly *is* the status of Trick Room in the current meta? There seem to be quite a lot of incredibly strong Trick Room Pokémon such as Stakataka, Glastrier, A-Marowak, Melmetal, Reuniclus, Dhelmise, Torkoal, and even Rhyperior. Dexit appears to have spared most of the important Trick Room setting Pokémon and even buffed a few with Teleport. There's also Future Sight which can help the Trick Room team force progress against defensive cores without too much prediction.

Yet despite this I haven't seen very many successful Trick Room teams in tournaments or the ladder. Has anyone tried Trick Room much in 8th gen?
I don't think people have really used it yet. Also worth noting that Magearna, Mega Mawile, and Mega Heracross (3 of the best TR pokemon last gen) are gone
 

Finchinator

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What exactly *is* the status of Trick Room in the current meta?
Fringe cheese offense style behind mainstream screens and set-up spam in terms of viability.
Yet despite this I haven't seen very many successful Trick Room teams in tournaments or the ladder. Has anyone tried Trick Room much in 8th gen?
Success on both ladder and in tournaments during early meta and DLC1 — I can attest to this firsthand. As of late, I have seen less and less of it though.

Probably more of an SQSA topic for next time, fwiw. Not that this is an issue now though, so don’t worry
 
Fringe cheese offense style behind mainstream screens and set-up spam in terms of viability.

Success on both ladder and in tournaments during early meta and DLC1 — I can attest to this firsthand. As of late, I have seen less and less of it though.

Probably more of an SQSA topic for next time, fwiw. Not that this is an issue now though, so don’t worry
Worth noting that this is also applicable for webs and sun lol :P

Literally, just replace trick room with webs or sun and it'll work
 
I've tried Salamence and it's great until you realize that is suffers from a severe 4MSS and most importantly that every DD set is completely outclassed by both Dragonite and Gyarados while every pivot/defog set is outclassed by other Flying types with defog which there are tons of. Special sets are, despite Mence's great special movepool, obviously outclassed by stuff like hydreigon and pretty much every serious special attacker. As for Kommo-o he doesn't fit into the tier that we'll as of right now so probably the best way to use it would be Sub-Salac belly drum set with either Sticky Web (which is pretty bad) or screens.
I am a guy who tried many different sets of mence. Honestly mix and scarf are the better ones. LO is good at breaking many cores. For example fire blast chunks corv really hard, baiting things like tran so u eq it. Hurricane can 2ko clef with hurricane, mean if torn can spam 70 accu moves means that mence can make it work. I think the main issue that people are afraid of dropping, even If mence dies fast, the Hole made is worth, Kyurem for example usually stays on mence expecting the usual sets. Nite cannot even aford mixed sets, because is so slow and relies on scale. It isnt as easy to use as draga that just click buttons, but the rewards are worth. Draco+eq kills pex and if u are crazy u can opt for iron tail. I think this mon needs more testing.
 
I’m going to bring up a niche mon that I think has improved viability in the current metagame.
:ss/incineroar:

What does Incineroar do?

Incineroar is a bulky pivot with Parting Shot/U-turn and other utility such as Toxic, Taunt, WoW and STAB Knock Off. It has a great ability in Intimidate and a pretty good physical movepool, most notably EQ, Thunder Punch, Drain Punch/CC and Iron Head. Parting Shot is an underrated pivot move that lets Incineroar weaken threats when switching. This can be particularly good for stopping setup sweepers that force it out, and can also enable weakened counters to switch in. However, it’s held back by a lack of recovery outside of Drain Punch, mediocre defensive typing and reliance on HDB.

So why are metagame trends favourable for Incineroar?

For starters, Pult is absolutely insane right now. One of the primary reasons I started playing around with Incineroar was that it can check the majority of Dragapult sets. It laughs in the face of WoW Hex, Intimidate lets it switch in comfortably on physical variants and it can soft check Specs if locked into Shadow Ball. In every case, it threatens Dragapult out with and can gain momentum by pivoting or force progress with Knock Off. Without recovery it can’t beat Pult in the long run, but it still provides solid defensive utility.

Aside from Pult, three mons are arguably defining wallbreaking in the tier right now: Rillaboom, Lele, and Kyurem.
As such, the use of Steels such as Corv, Ferro, Scizor, Aegi and Skarm has increased due to their ability to counter these threats. Incineroar provides a pivoting option that can beat these defensive mons, unlike Lando-T that is forced out by most of them. Incineroar can also switch into comfortably to any Rillaboom not carrying Superpower or Drain Punch, and can force out Specs Kyurem if it is locked into an ice move.

Weavile is another mon that has been skyrocketing in usage recently, and Incineroar resists its dual STAB and has Intimidate. Again, lack of recovery prevents Incineroar from being a long term counter, but being able to force out Weavile several times during a match can be very valuable in terms of the utility Incineroar can provide. Low Kick?

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Incineroar: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The ban of Cinderace has also left OU pretty much devoid of physical fire types, with Victini and Blaziken being rather matchup-fishy. Incineroar obviously appreciates the lack of competition. (Not to mention it can easily check Victini)

I am by no means suggesting that the ugly wrestling cat is particularly good. In most cases it is outclassed by Lando-T or Zeraora as a physical pivot, it’s slow, and it hates taking Knock Off. However, on certain teams it can be the best option due to the unique offensive and defensive utility it provides, and I genuinely believe that it can be very valuable in the current meta.
I have to disagree with you on this. Incineroar is not viable in this meta even with everything taken into consideration.

Knock Off is far too common in the meta and its not good for a slow mon with no recovery thats weak to rocks (A reason why Moltres is not good). It’s physical movepool is impressive, but your rarely gonna have room for most of these moves and univested base 115 Attack is mediocre.

Its not even good at checking its targets either.

Pult constantly U-Turns on it and Specs Draco 2HKOs. Rilla doesn’t need Superpower to break past Incin. It can just Knock its Boots off and then U-Turn on its face. Same story with Scizor and Weavile. Incin takes like 80% from Specs Lele and can’t check CM Lele. As for Kyurem. Two words, Earth Power. Corv/Skarm do a decent chunk to it with BP and Ferro has Knock. Consider the fact it takes 25% from rocks and that it has no reliable way of recovery, you get an unviable coarse meal. Other slow pivots like Scizor and Lando are good pivots cause they offer more in a game, aren’t weak to rocks, and the former has Roost. Other pivots that are weak to rocks like Torn and Zapdos have Regen and Roost. So yeah, Incin is bad.
 

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Hey there :afrostar:

I'd like to bring up yet another underrated threat being Crawdaunt. It's crazy good right now, Adaptability with some of the most spammable STABs in Knock Off and Crabhammer make it incredibly hard to switch into. Its access to Swords Dance makes it even harder to switch into. Dark resists arent enough to check this crustacean; Tapu Fini and Tangrowth can however get the job done but they're still hesitant to switch in since Tapu Fini doesnt like its Leftovers Knocked Off and Tangrowth cannot take a Swords Dance boosted Knock Off. However its rather slow speed tier can seem to hold it back seeing as it's only way to get around that is an Aqua Jet which although strong cannot break through revenge killers like Rillaboom, Dragapult and Urshifu-R. It also struggles a fair bit to finding good setup opportunities as it's quite frail. Although with that being said, why is this lovable goofy Crayfish good right now?

:ss/crawdaunt:
Crawdaunt @ Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer

- Aqua Jet

Or

Crawdaunt @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off / Crunch
- Crabhammer
- Aqua Jet

- Close Combat / Switcheroo

Strongest Knock Off, that's what makes Crawdaunt good, and not just that, Adaptability as well. That paired with its spammable STAB moves, its good attack stat and access to Swords Dance can make it incredibly hard to switch into. Secondly its amazing lack of defensive checks makes it all the more threatening to teams and can make it hard to handle.Its access to Aqua Jet makes it hard to revenge kill as well, making pokemon such as Zeraora unable to handle it after a Swords Dance. A Choice Banded set is also pretty good, having access to immediate power by sacrificing flexibility. This set also lets it run Close Combat which can make breaking through Hydreigon and Ferrothorn easier. There's also a Switcheroo variant of Choice Band Crawdaunt that I've been trying out and it's pretty neat but the lack of Knock Off really hurts its viability.

Good Teammates
Rillaboom makes for an exceptional teammate for Crawdaunt as it wholly abuses Crawdaunts ability to force out or KO pokemon like Corviknight and Skarmory. Rillaboom can also pressure out Crawdaunts best defensive check being Tapu Fini {side note even Tapu Fini gets 2HKO'd by +2 Crabhammer, (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 201-238 (58.4 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) I still mention it as a check as it's the only mon that can switch in and then threaten a KO}. Mandibuzz makes a good partner as well since it can check pokemon like Rillaboom, and Dragapult which Crawdaunt struggles to deal with as its strong priority falls useless against them which makes it easier for them to revenge kill it. Teleport users like Slowking also make good partners in crime especially with the Choice Banded set, as it can offer a free switch in for it, Slowkings Future Sight support can also turn it into a dangerous breaker.

Crawdaunt is amazing in the tier currently and is definitely worth using, that being said what do you guys think about it in the current metagame?
Well, that's all I have to say, Bye! :blobwizard:
 
Yet despite this I haven't seen very many successful Trick Room teams in tournaments or the ladder. Has anyone tried Trick Room much in 8th gen?
Trick Room is my favorite play style to experiment with, and in my experience, while fun, it is simply inconsistent at mid-high ladder. In general, TR fairs excellently against offense, but struggles against Balance and Stall, particularly ones with Regenerator cores, which with some skilled play can dance around your offense and stall out your precious TR turns.

The lack of hazard control is often lethal too, as stopping your offense to use Rapid Spin/Defog often tanks your offensive momentum. Hatterene still exists, yes, but it is often dead weight with Heatrans dominating the tier.

TR setters like Cresselia and Teleport Porygon 2 and Slowbois are extremely fat and consistent at setting TR and good at getting breakers in, but also very passive. Other fun options for setters include Red Card Mimikyu which offers a one time guaranteed TR set, in addition to yeeting away a set up sweeper/or one behind a Sub, and Meowstick M which can provide Prankster Dual Screens, for an even tankier TR build that also has priority pseudo-hazing with Yawn.

What else?... breakers. Crawdaunt, as everyone knows, packs a wallop, but it gets chased out by Rillaboom, which is everywhere. Heavy Boots Glastier and Flame Orb Conkledurr are fun breakers but oooof, those dang Slowbros are absolutely momentum stoppers. Swords Dance Marowak-A resists Grassy Glade and can break EVERYTHING but hazards seriously limit its switch in opportunities. Give it Lunar Dance/Teleport support because Knock Off will render it a non-issue.

I will add that my favorite offensive setter is HDB Victini w/ V Create, Bolt Strike, Power Up Punch and Trick Room. It can blast its way through overconfident water types with good prediction, V Create hits like a truck obviously, resists Rillaboom’s priority (which forces out many breakers like Crawdaunt), can set its own Trick Room, and, unlike Marowak-A, it can afford to run boots as to not be murdered by hazards.
 
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STALL SLAYING CUCUMBER

Actually, Knock Off isn't as bad of an issue as I thought. I figured out if you pp drain your own recover, you can activate your leppa. Thus, it is safe inside the cucumber's belly and can't be Knocked Off. Then you're free to spam block indiscriminately, even if it's Magic Bounced back onto you, you can heal until Recover reaches zero again and, as long as you're slower, you can use Leppa and eat in the same turn. Rinse and repeat and this Pyuku can destroy all of stall except maybe Zapdos and Tangrowth, but if it isn't critted it can survive Tangrowth a large portion of the time:

0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 246 HP / 50 SpD Pyukumuku through Light Screen: 67-81 (21.4 - 25.9%) -- 1.9% chance to 4HKO

Here is a replay of the set

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-1294803747-rz9rjr94u0u5whtvq1vp3f2r6v7rvn7pw

---

Update!

I've reached top 100 with two different accounts using the pyuku set as my usual win condition. It is a very solid answer to opposing stall.
Congrats! Could you paste the team?
 
I wish there was an option to support a retest while also voting ban. I just like retests bro </3

I was surprised that torn-t wasn't mentioned in the survey. I'm not complaining or anything, I just expected it to be there with some of the discussion of it that happened before. Then again it got promptly shoved by the zama-c discussion (also surprised zama-h didn't show up, but there wasn't as much talk about it either so I guess its understandable it's off the tables right now).
 
Lemingue said:
I wish there was an option to support a retest while also voting ban. I just like retests bro </3

I was surprised that torn-t wasn't mentioned in the survey. I'm not complaining or anything, I just expected it to be there with some of the discussion of it that happened before. Then again it got promptly shoved by the zama-c discussion (also surprised zama-h didn't show up, but there wasn't as much talk about it either so I guess its understandable it's off the tables right now).
Do you think Torn-T is broken? This might just be my dumb mid-ladder opinion, but I’ve never had any real problems with it. It’s one of the best pivots in the metagame, no doubt, but offensive sets seem pretty lacking in terms of coverage and power to me. Not to mention Hurricane misses all the damn time. Could someone explain if and why Torn-T is potentially broken enough to warrant a suspect?
To give this post a bit more substance, I’ll quickly share my opinions on the two mons in the survey.

:cinderace:
I’m not really sure about this one. Usually it was just about manageable, but the warping effect it had on teambuilding, forcing every defensive mon to run Rocky Helmet, wasn’t great and I prefer the metagame without it. I wouldn’t mind a retest, but I doubt it’ll be unbanned.

:zamazenta-crowned:
Zama-C is kind of ridiculous in my opinion, it’s insane base stats and defensive typing more than make up for it’s lack of recovery and reliable boosting move imo. Better players than me have already made compelling arguments as to why it’s too strong for OU, so I won’t go into it further. That said, at this point I think it should be tested just so that it will stop dominating the discussion. People will pushing for a test until there is one, so let’s just have one and put an end to it.
 
On the retests
:Cinderace: strong support for retest, and would very likely be voting unban
I feel that Cinderace's strength got severely warped by Urshifu SS and Magearna. Urshifu could break a lot of the mons that Cinderace had trouble busting through, while magearna, although broke on the special side, was a defensive monster, that meant that frailer threats were surpressed. With those 2 gone, the format has more options now to handle a Cinderace. Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T and Weavile, while not all able to swap in, can be brought in on a slow pivot/revenge and deal significant damage, if not outright KOing Cinderace, while outspeeding it, meaning that U turn, and in their case, sucker punch. Torn also has Regen allowing it to take hits, and recover the damage. It could get a cheesy knock off, and cripple cinderace's pivot game, while hurricane could net a cool KO if it has turned fighting for any reason. And then, on the defensive side, you have options like Hippowdon, Vincune, Mandibuzz, Tang (to an extent), Garchomp and Lando, to name a few, and each has options to handle a Cinderace, and even some of cinderace's partners in crime, like rillaboom and zeraora. Overall, I feel its a mistake not to give it its deserved retest, as that's why it was QB'd and not suspected.

:Zamazenta: opposed to suspect, and would vote keep it banned.
Way too good for OU. Brutal defensive stats, solid offensive stat, can boost said offensive stat, +1 defense to begin... With the caveat of no healing (not a problem when wish and healing wish exist)... Yeah,it has some defensive play, but those can be handled by teammates.
 
Do you think Torn-T is broken? This might just be my dumb mid-ladder opinion, but I’ve never had any real problems with it. It’s one of the best pivots in the metagame, no doubt, but offensive sets seem pretty lacking in terms of coverage and power to me. Not to mention Hurricane misses all the damn time. Could someone explain if and why Torn-T is potentially broken enough to warrant a suspect?
I agree, the pivot set is good because it can defog and check Rillaboom all game while not being a Magnezone victim but it lacks any real offensive presence because uninvested Torn-T doesn't hit that hard while I find the offensive sets to always be lacking a move not to mention how difficult setting up a nasty plot can be when Dragapult, Tapu Koko and Zeraora are everywhere. Torn-T is certainly a good pokemon in the metagame but compared to the monstrosities that have been rightfully banned like Magearna and Spectrier it is wholly manageable.

:cinderace:

I'm on the opinion that quickbanning Cinderace was a mistake. To me it was not Cinderace that forced teams to have defensive pokemon with rocky helmet but Cinderace's ability to pivot ad infinitum with the boots. Not to mention how its frequent partner in crime :magearna: was the single most oppressive offensive presence in the metagame and running Cinderace checks also meant running Magearna victims unless you were using a sand team. I would've liked to see a metagame with Cinderace but without Magearna and perhaps we would've seen that Cinderace on its own was perfectly fine. So I would welcome a re-test of the fire bunny as long as the mechanical bunny stays in the Uber realm.
 
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TailGlowVM

Now 100% more demonic
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I submitted my response to the questions, and here's my thoughts on the retests:

:cinderace: I'm not completely certain of Cinderace is broken, but would prefer it to stay banned as I think the new metagame is healthier with more Pokemon freed up in its absence. For instance, Slowking is no longer burdened with being a Water-type that doesn't check Cinderace, and Corviknight can be used more as a Defogger over other options. These Pokemon are great checks to premier threats of the post-Cinderace metagame like Lele and Heatran for the former and Garchomp and Rillaboom for the latter, and would be restricted if it were unbanned. Consequently, I would most likely vote ban in a retest.

:zamazenta_crowned: I strongly oppose any Zamazenta-C test. As I see it, it would not be so much a wall, but rather a combination of a fast Glastrier and a more offensive Tapu Fini: a fast (faster than Torn-T, Weavile and Cinderace) moderately strong attacker that doesn't really wall much but softchecks lots of Pokemon by preventing them from using their best moves, and can be an emergency switch in to a suprisingly wide variety of things, taking one hit and retaliating with its great coverage and speed, making it capable of forcing lots of trades and putting on lots of pressure. Lastly, while it's true Zamazenta-C doesn't have the best raw Attack stat due to its lack of item slot, it has two 100+ BP STAB moves without significant drawbacks, and decent coverage to compliment them. I predict the best Zamazenta set wouldn't involve Howl or RestTalk at all, you'd probably do this:

:ss/zamazenta_crowned:
Zamazenta-C @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Behemoth Bash
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang

The idea is to play it like Mega Swampert in rain: you outspeed and beat most of the metagame and what you can't 2HKO doesn't damage you enough to matter. There are some checks, but they're not as good as you might first think: Wild Charge 2HKOs Slowking, 252/4 Toxapex most of the time after Rocks, and has a chance to 2HKO Moltres if it becomes a thing again. Ice Fang 2HKOs Rocky Helmet Lando at -1 after Rocks and means you aren't helpless against Zapdos (especially if it loses Boots). You can even run Crunch for Aegislash. So yes, there are checks, and Slowbro is a counter, but it's not as simple as using any old Pokemon that resists its STAB moves, there would be significant shifts around it, and you have to be careful of switching into coverage. This might not seem too unhealthy, but what if I told you the list of attacks you can take? You've already likely seen the calcs about the STAB Earthquakes it survives, and it also does this:

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Sacred Sword vs +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 84.3 - 99.6% - guaranteed 2HKO

That's a supereffective, Choice Band-boosted move that ignores the Defense boost and comes from the highest Attack stat in this generation. And if that weren't enough, Zamazenta outspeeds and OHKOes it back with even uninvested Close Combat. Please, Council, whatever you do as a result of this survey, do NOT retest Zamazenta-C, it's too fast and bulky for OU.
 
Do you think Torn-T is broken? This might just be my dumb mid-ladder opinion, but I’ve never had any real problems with it. It’s one of the best pivots in the metagame, no doubt, but offensive sets seem pretty lacking in terms of coverage and power to me. Not to mention Hurricane misses all the damn time. Could someone explain if and why Torn-T is potentially broken enough to warrant a suspect?
To give this post a bit more substance, I’ll quickly share my opinions on the two mons in the survey.
I don't think torn-t is broken (for now). I find it is a really good pivot and can deal with annoying pokemon (and even put a few holes on your team if you use it well), but like both said, its offensive capabilities have a limit.

I just though it'd be there since some people talked about it, and only having two pokemon to vote on felt a bit weird (we had a bunch before), but I assume that's just a reflection of the current metagame.

On another note: I voted indifferent on Zama-C because I personally don't think zama-c will be bad enough to drop to ou when tested, but maybe I should have voted differently, because now I just feel like "please just test it so we can move on". Whatever happens, happens.

If the metagame gets worse though I'm hittin yall with a stick :mad:
 
:cinderace:
Banning this thing was a godsend and helped to improve the tier in many ways. Opposed to a retest but even if it does get tested there's no way it's coming back. Exacerbates all the current issues with the HDB pivot spam meta to 11 and pushes us in the wrong direction for having a healthy and enjoyable tier. Every team would just regress to four fat + two pivots in ace, pult, or zeraora. The power level is also far above anything else in this tier.

:zamazenta:
I voted indifferent for similar reasons to above posters, I'd like to see it retested so people will stop complaining about it not being tested but I do think it will be too much for the tier. Would be cool if it was able to stay but I doubt it tbh.

Other stuff I'd like to see possibly addressed in the future is Pex, bc :toxapex: bad and I am of the opinion that it'll never be healthy in a tier without nukes like Z moves (I don't think it's broken, just unhealthy and negatively impacts the metagame.) Torn-T seems to be thought broken by a lot of skilled players; I've never been fond of using it bc it doesn't fit my usual team styles but I can see where they're coming from.

I don't know if there's anything that can be done about how unpunished pivoting is in the current metagame, but if there is something that the council thinks could be done I would love to see them propose it as I find the tier boring (but balanced) whenever I try to get into it more. Maybe the style of SS OU just isn't my thing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and if so that's totally a me issue.
 

IPF

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is a Tiering Contributor
Gonna keep this brief but figured I would chime in on the survey questions.
:cinderace:
Keep this mon banned. Frankly speaking the meta is much much healthier with this thing gone as it no longer forces 1-2 Rocky Helmet users per team, and defensive cores are no longer forced into clunkier structures (in addition to its fantastic matchup vs. hyper offense). In an already momentum based metagame, adding this thing would completely throw off the balance of everything and is a pointless exercise. We've seen what it can do, and it doesn't need to be tested again.

:zamazenta_crowned:
I'm not completely clued in on this one, however I do think that if there is decent support for it being tested it's worth a try. Unlike Cinderace we've never seen a metagame with it, so it would be something fresh, and would also do away with the absurd amount of theorymonning this thread holds. Meta is currently stable, I figure it's worth a shot, even if in all likelihood it will not be unbanned. Seeing the OU council be more proactive is a breath of fresh air as compared to what we were subjected to last generation, and tests like these do no harm in the long haul.

TL;DR: Don't retest Cinderace, give Zamazenta-C a chance
 
Guess I’ll chime in.

:ss/cinderace:
I may be a bit biased here, but I would prefer to keep this away from OU. This thing pretty much forced every team to run Rocky Helmet/Slowbro in order to not make it Ace bait, and even with that in mind, it could still put in loads of work. This thing was the absolute bane of slower teams without priority or a scarfer, in no part due to HDB and its great speed tier. Sure, it dissuades Rilla from mindlessly clicking Glide and brings some kind of speed control to the table, but is it worth bringing a mon that’s already been proven to be putting a stranglehold on the tier just for those two pros? Won’t delve into this as everything else has been said, but in short, please keep this rotting in Ubers.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Like some others here, I voted indifferent on this because while I’ve expressed my ideas on a retest here (tldr: I was against it), I guess it wouldn’t hurt to test it. Do I think that it’s still probably broken? Yes. Does that mean that I’m against the notion of retesting it? No, not really. I won’t regurgitate all the pro-ban arguments, cause you can just go back a few pages and see plenty for yourself, but sure, let’s give it a chance, it still has a few notable flaws such as no reliable recovery and a forced item slot, so maybe that’ll be enough? :psysly:
 
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i dont play OU much, but i have been lurking, and i suppose i should give my thoughts on these two.

:ss/cinderace:
As far as I’ve seen from the community, the tier has been FAR better without this thing forcing shitty Rocky helmet slowbros on every team. Just keep it out, nobody needs the damn thing. A suspect would just waste time for a mon that everyone knows is broken, and one that we’ve already given several chances.
This is like being in an unhealthy relationship with your ex and just when you’re gonna break up, they say “I’LL CHANGE, PLEASE!” even when you know they’ll stay the exact same level of scum.
Good riddance.

:ss/zamazenta-crowned:
Now this thing on the other hand.
You can say all your, “Ooh! RestTalk scawy! Ooh! Future Sight bad! Ooh, too bulky!” Or whatever the circlejerky garbage excuse you people have for not giving this thing a test. We’ve never tested it out before, aside from shitty roomtours in which half the people don’t use the unbanned shit in the first fucking place, so why not? At worst, it’s just gonna be there for two weeks. And then we never have to think about it for the rest of the gen. That’s it! Is that such a bad thing to the point where anti-testers foam out of the mouth at the idea of their balanced meta being put on hold for all of two weeks? Almost sad, really.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
So yes, I agree that Cinderace is very good and difficult to deal with, but I don't necessarily feel like the meta is better off without it. FlamingVictini is easily one of the best SS players right now and he recently said on ima's stream that he didn't think that Cinderace should have been banned. He said that it required you to play and build differently (particularly using more Rocky Helmet to punish U-turn) but that he didn't consider Cinderace to be broken.
I just want to post one more thing for posterity, since I mentioned it before, but here is ima and FlamingVictini talking about Cinderace and the current meta. They actually had that conversation after I made my post, so I was initially referring to a different time that they were talking about Cinderace, but I feel like this segment of that video encapsulates their viewpoints well. They talk about the current meta for about 10 minutes and they both agree that retesting/unbanning Cinderace could improve the meta. I feel like even if you don't agree with their opinions, it's valuable to listen to two of the best SS players share their thoughts on relevant issues. FV makes a point about how Cinderace being an excellent Pokemon and having a somewhat centralizing effect on the tier wasn't really a bad thing because Cinderace was an important offensive check to many Pokemon, and I think that is an interesting argument. ima also mentions that Ben Gay has said that he never considered Cinderace banworthy, and while Ben Gay isn't as active in SS (although his team dumps have been very influential), I still feel like he's clearly one of the best minds Pokemon has ever seen and I hold his opinion in high regard. So overall, I just wanted to post that video because I think that everyone could benefit from hearing more top players' opinions on the meta and the potential of reintroducing Cinderace. ima also has an excellent stream so I recommend people hanging out there as well if they enjoyed that video.
 
Goodbye and Thanks I would haha your post but you seem like a good dude and that perspective is one of others not your own. Would rather not bring back Cinderace Volt-turns which were pretty cancerous to play and watch. I posted my thoughts in the survey and I'll probably leave it at that. I dont enjoy the meta either but I'm fine with accepting that and just waiting for dpp remakes since some people do like SS and fun is subjective.
 
Idk if this was talked beforehand, and I'm sorry if it was, but if a cinderace retest is considered, should it be before or after a Zama-c test?

I was thinking doing it after shield dog. If we do it before, cinderace doesn't drop, and then zama drops, people may feel like they could test it again to see how it'd work in a zama metagame.
Though some may think that we should see if cinderace works in a metagame before we introduce an ubers mon to it, and should have more priority.

It didn't feel like a sqsa question, apologies if it is
 
I’m wholeheartedly in favor of retesting Ace and personally believe it to be a healthy presence for the meta. In the previous survey that led to Ace and Gear’s quickbans, there was a statistically significant difference in the level of support for banning Ace vs. how much support there was for banning Gear. Because of this, I was quite unhappy to see that it didn’t receive a suspect test in the first place.

I was happy to see Magearna quickbanned, as the moves it gained in SS just proved to give it far too many options. But Cinderace occupied an important role as a breaker that also gained momentum for your team, while still being held in check or countered by a large number of extremely common threats. Even now, the majority of teams carry mons that check Cinderace - Garchomp, Lando, Slowbro, Hippo, and T Wave Dragapult are some examples. Not to mention the array of scarfers and naturally faster mons like Torn, Weavile and Zeraora that can revenge kill it or threaten it out with Knock Off and prevent it from getting out of control.

Cinderace was also very frequently paired with Specs / Scarf Magearna, which blew away most of Ace’s answers. They formed a phenomenal core. Other posters have been saying that we’ve already seen what Ace does in a meta, but we’ve never seen it without what may its best partner.

In addition, item displacement is pretty much omnipresent in OU. Cinderace is very strong with HDB, but it’s very likely to lose those boots over the course of a game, nuking its longevity.

For Ace not to be given a suspect test now after its quickban would be very disappointing, as I believe it would bring positive change to this stale, polarized meta. What harm could 2 weeks of it being allowed on the ladder do? At worst, it stays banned. But it could also prove to be a healthy addition to the tier, as it is now.
 
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People keep talking about the "positive changes" Cinderace brings to the tier, but what are those, exactly? We have plenty of wallbreakers that break what Cinderace could break, plenty of pivots that can enable what Cinderace enabled, plenty of fast mons that can control what Cinderace controlled. Hell, we aren't even that short on Grassy Glide resists. What positive changes does Cinderace bring to the tier?
 

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