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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
There's an interesting thing here when it comes to old formulas. I can obviously claim nostalgia for pokemon, but it's not been the only series I've been excited recently primarily for keeping a formula strong. The weird part? The other ones I can't really claim nostaliga for: I only played the old games that produced their formula within the last couple years. So, from my perspective, those games don't need a shakeup because I'm clearly still willing to seek out their older gameplay in today's time. It then undermines the idea that pokemon needs to reinvent itself. Metroid doesn't, Megaman doesn't, Advance Wars doesn't, I find Zelda's and Fire Emblem's most recent major changes to be a step down in enjoyement, why should I want pokemon to reinvent itself?
Part of it is that I consider SwSh to be trying to branch off: a more open world, a larger emphasis on interacting with the mons outside of battle, heavy focus on one specific PvP format. I don't like those changes, and I don't like what was given up to make them. I would rather spend time in Emerald's battle frontier, which is fairly obviously an older iteration of what a pokemon game is.
Yeah this is a truly unpopular take, I don't expect many to agree with me. As I said, the Red fight in HGSS offers closure. It resolves the question of who did it better. Without that fight, you would end the game with that question unresolved, with Red getting the edge due to being first and you simply following in his footsteps. Not to mention the version of Team Rocket in Johto being heavily watered down compared to Kanto.
Similarly, Team Plasma is a fractured organization in B2W2. In BW they are arguably the best villain team in the series. If I had to choose, I would say the BW protagonist's achievements are more impressive compared to B2W2's for the simple fact that the former took down Team Plasma at its apex. But we don't have that sense of closure like in HGSS to decide who is ultimately better. It's a missed opportunity in my view.
Your second point is a good one, in that this way both sets of Gen 5 games preserve their relevance. However, I believe both sets are lacking something as a result. BW lacks a solid post game battle facility like Battle Frontier or PWT + Black Tower/White Treehollow, and B2W2 lacks a great main campaign like BW's since you basically do the same thing of saving Unova from Team Plasma, only on a smaller and less impressive scale. Which is why I wish they combined the best elements of both sets of games to create one definitive version. As it stands, without such a version I cannot rank either game with more complete experiences like Platinum or Emerald.
Is that even a relevant question?
That's fair. I just never cared much for Red as an NPC or the fight against him. One other aspect of him I dislike is the fact that he is still silent even as an NPC. I think having a silent protagonist in the games is fine, but still keeping him silent when making him an NPC was a bad decision IMO. This just made him feel more underwhelming to me.
Team Plasma got fractured in B2/W2 (or split in two, one old and one new, each with different goals) and I agree that they were at their very best in B/W. But I'm not sure if I would say that the B/W protagonist had more impressive achievements than the B2/W2 protagonist. This is something I have never really thought that much about to be honest, I have never really compared the achievements of the different protagonists that much. But if I were to do so now, I don't think I would only look at what they did during the main story. There are other things too, notably post-game stuff like Battle Facilities and other tough post-game battles as well as completing the Pokédex, so I think it is quite even between the protagonists from B/W and B2/W2 in that regard. That's just my opinion though.
That's an understandable point of view. I partly agree, but I think the things the respective Gen 5 pairs are lacking are mostly minor. B/W doesn't have the PWT or a Battle Frontier, but there's still the Subway (as well as the Institute). Plus, there has never been a first pair with more than one or two battle facilities, they have always just had the standard facility as well as one extra since Gen 5 (not including the S/S DLC since it added more to the base games). I also think B/W are among the best when it comes to post-games for a first pair, tied with D/P. This is very subjective, but I liked the main story of B2/W2 as well. It wasn't quite as great as the one in B/W, but I still think it was good. The sequels also performed excellently in other areas during the main game, like having the largest regional dex for their time as well as letting you travel through the region in a partly different way. I understand how you wanted them to combine the two game pairs into one, but personally, I am glad they didn't. If they had done so, I would only need to play "Gray" nowadays, and have no reason to play B/W anymore. Similar to how I only need Platinum from Gen 4 nowadays, I no longer have any reason to play D/P. I also really liked how B/W and B2/W2 did many things very differently from each other, yet they still managed to be quite similar in the end. In comparison, "Gray" would probably have been way more similar to B/W than B2/W2 ended up being (like how Emerald/Platinum was more similar to D/P & R/S), which I would probably not have appreciated as much.
I agree, keeping Red silent was a poor design choice. I guess they were both paying homage to his silent protagonist origins as well going for the badass "strong, silent type" vibe, but in practice it makes no sense. Makes you wonder how he orders his Pokémon in battle. Or if they're just so in sync that he telepathically communicates with them. Pretty stupid.
Though I chalk this up more to execution of the fight rather than concept. Another miss regarding execution was bloating his levels beyond reason, instead of giving him quality Pokémon. Like for example Mewtwo, which he canonically caught and would have been a terrific final boss.
Yeah, Red having Mewtwo would've been sick! The Pokemon Stadium 2 game literally has you fight Red using the Legendary Beasts and the Rival having Ho-Oh, Lugia, and Mewtwo, and we literally get N using Zekrom/Reshiram against you depending on the game, so it's a very reasonable choice. Pokemon Adventures Red also has Mewtwo IIRC and other alternate versions of him capture the big guy too. It would even kinda explain why you can't find him any more in Cerulean City. Not that I'm gonna complain too much about the fight, I love it (nightmare as it is for Nuzlockers).
And as much as I hate to say it, I'm okay with Red being...kinda stratospheric in might and levels. He's the ultimate trainer, it makes sense he's basically OP haha (far more so than Lance or even Blue).
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They didn't beat my boy Gold though :hm
Speaking of Red, I've seen this video discussing about some characters getting worse. It's on Spanish so I'm explaining it here+my thoughts.
For Red, it remarks the importance and meaning of the fight in the johto games: you fighting your own representation of the past and overcoming it, fitting since GSC happens 3 years after the events of RBY, the shadow of Kanto always looming in Johto. Which loses meaning once Red became a recurring character in plenty of games as the superboss mostly because he's popular, kinda like the Iron Giant in current Warner movies. BW2 specially being a massively wasted opportunity by being the only sequel alongside GSC, and we could've had a Hilbert/Hilda fight like the Drayano hacks do.
Now Wally...this has been an interesting take Karimero had for a while. He appeciates the tiny detail of his family not knowing about Wally's whereabouts in the original RSE, which remarks Wally's independence despite being a frail boy, also him ultimately failing despite his best efforts as a harsh but great lesson; but in ORAS this loses meaning because his family openly support him. Ok, both Wallys suffer from getting short of screentime, and if anything, the added scene in ORAS is pretty wholesome (the teleport to Mauville SUCKS, however), it gives a few thoughts of parenthood from Norman and Wally's father, the battle in Victory Road is overall more poignant and after this Wally surpasses his limits and becomes the superboss of ORAS, so the self superation lesson isn't lost. So yeah, disagree with this take.
He also mentions Norman being irrelevant in the Delta episode, Zinzolin being disappointly evil in BW2 and the USUM Aether family having a less important role, but I think those takes are more popular.
PD. We're approaching page 400 bois
For Red, it remarks the importance and meaning of the fight in the johto games: you fighting your own representation of the past and overcoming it, fitting since GSC happens 3 years after the events of RBY, the shadow of Kanto always looming in Johto. Which loses meaning once Red became a recurring character in plenty of games as the superboss mostly because he's popular, kinda like the Iron Giant in current Warner movies. BW2 specially being a massively wasted opportunity by being the only sequel alongside GSC, and we could've had a Hilbert/Hilda fight like the Drayano hacks do.
Now Wally...this has been an interesting take Karimero had for a while. He appeciates the tiny detail of his family not knowing about Wally's whereabouts in the original RSE, which remarks Wally's independence despite being a frail boy, also him ultimately failing despite his best efforts as a harsh but great lesson; but in ORAS this loses meaning because his family openly support him. Ok, both Wallys suffer from getting short of screentime, and if anything, the added scene in ORAS is pretty wholesome (the teleport to Mauville SUCKS, however), it gives a few thoughts of parenthood from Norman and Wally's father, the battle in Victory Road is overall more poignant and after this Wally surpasses his limits and becomes the superboss of ORAS, so the self superation lesson isn't lost. So yeah, disagree with this take.
He also mentions Norman being irrelevant in the Delta episode, Zinzolin being disappointly evil in BW2 and the USUM Aether family having a less important role, but I think those takes are more popular.
PD. We're approaching page 400 bois
I actually like the USUM version of the Lusamine family, they get a happyish ending and are less dysfunctional (Lusamine herself ofc). Lusamine is far less intimidating and memorable as an opponent, on the other hand...but that's fine as you get to fight Ultra Necrozma instead.
I partly agree on Red, I think they kinda did ruin him. He's too ''memetic'' as the strongest trainer alive IMO out-of-universe but in-universe doesn't really seem convincing as the strongest outside level, and lacks character on top of that. I'd have loved if Red had actual personality other than just being someone that fights you - all the other Champions have personality and roles outside direct combat.
Cynthia was nice and polite, Lance humble if incredibly driven to beat up guys that abuse Pokemon and helped Silver redeem himself, Diantha was as bland as bread but at least comes across as a living being, Steven likes stones and is generally suave but has funny moments concerning his dad, Alder was a wise dude that has an actual backstory and inspired character development in others like Cheren, N is N, Wallace is a flamboyant and artsy kind, Leon is responsible yet funny with his inability to follow directions, Iris is a literal child with a playful and upbeat personality, Kukui is the Masked Royal and a very fun-loving dude, and Hau is a really mellow and happy-go-lucky kid that grows up and starts taking being a trainer more seriously. Even Blue, of course, is a cocky kid that doesn't care much for his Pokemon or for other people and routinely taunts you or others.
But Red? Dude's a literal blank slate. This was actually completely fine in GSC, less so in HGSS or beyond though. I'd have preferred if Red perhaps was a a more straight up nice if quiet character kinda like Erika, contrasting him with the more gregarious and still slightly annoying Blue. They could've also given him better teams including the likes of Mewtwo, the Johto starters, and Sylveon - that way his status as the best is actually believable. Imagine a team involving Light Ball Pikachu, one of the Kanto Mega Starters (varies every match), Mewtwo, Normalium Z Snorlax, Multiscale Dragonite (obtained from Dragon's Den in Johto, because he went there too), and one of the Alola starters that counters the Kanto one's weaknesses. For instance, if Red uses Mega Charizard X or Y, the Alola starter is Decidueye, and if he uses Mega Venusaur, Primarina, and so on.
That'd be a much more fitting team for the strongest trainer of them all, and all of these are either event or mandatory Pokemon like the ones he had before, and make sense given the regions associated with Red other than Kanto (he literally appears in the Johto games as the final story boss and is literally in Alola right now, so him having a Johto Pokemon and an Alolan Pokemon makes sense). If Dragonite is too strange, Tyranitar can replace him just fine, especially given Larvitar can be found in Mt. Silver and be obtained from the Game Corner in Crystal...
Norman being irrelevant in the Delta Episode is fine IMO, Zinzolin turning evil again is strange though.
I partly agree on Red, I think they kinda did ruin him. He's too ''memetic'' as the strongest trainer alive IMO out-of-universe but in-universe doesn't really seem convincing as the strongest outside level, and lacks character on top of that. I'd have loved if Red had actual personality other than just being someone that fights you - all the other Champions have personality and roles outside direct combat.
Cynthia was nice and polite, Lance humble if incredibly driven to beat up guys that abuse Pokemon and helped Silver redeem himself, Diantha was as bland as bread but at least comes across as a living being, Steven likes stones and is generally suave but has funny moments concerning his dad, Alder was a wise dude that has an actual backstory and inspired character development in others like Cheren, N is N, Wallace is a flamboyant and artsy kind, Leon is responsible yet funny with his inability to follow directions, Iris is a literal child with a playful and upbeat personality, Kukui is the Masked Royal and a very fun-loving dude, and Hau is a really mellow and happy-go-lucky kid that grows up and starts taking being a trainer more seriously. Even Blue, of course, is a cocky kid that doesn't care much for his Pokemon or for other people and routinely taunts you or others.
But Red? Dude's a literal blank slate. This was actually completely fine in GSC, less so in HGSS or beyond though. I'd have preferred if Red perhaps was a a more straight up nice if quiet character kinda like Erika, contrasting him with the more gregarious and still slightly annoying Blue. They could've also given him better teams including the likes of Mewtwo, the Johto starters, and Sylveon - that way his status as the best is actually believable. Imagine a team involving Light Ball Pikachu, one of the Kanto Mega Starters (varies every match), Mewtwo, Normalium Z Snorlax, Multiscale Dragonite (obtained from Dragon's Den in Johto, because he went there too), and one of the Alola starters that counters the Kanto one's weaknesses. For instance, if Red uses Mega Charizard X or Y, the Alola starter is Decidueye, and if he uses Mega Venusaur, Primarina, and so on.
That'd be a much more fitting team for the strongest trainer of them all, and all of these are either event or mandatory Pokemon like the ones he had before, and make sense given the regions associated with Red other than Kanto (he literally appears in the Johto games as the final story boss and is literally in Alola right now, so him having a Johto Pokemon and an Alolan Pokemon makes sense). If Dragonite is too strange, Tyranitar can replace him just fine, especially given Larvitar can be found in Mt. Silver and be obtained from the Game Corner in Crystal...
Norman being irrelevant in the Delta Episode is fine IMO, Zinzolin turning evil again is strange though.
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Completely agree. The concept of the Red fight in HGSS is overcoming the shadow of someone who did it before you, arguably better, until you prove otherwise. Which is why I pointed out earlier in this thread, not having such a fight at the end of B2W2 leaves something to be desired. But I think your wording of essentially overcoming a shadow that looms over you really puts this point into perspective. Well said.
What about them replacing the Red fights with the characters you play as in previous games? While It would seem too much like it's copying the original, it would still be fun to see these characters you may or may not have played as being recognized in more than just their games.
Sadly scrapped in BW2
Would've probably stopped the Red Spam, but no
Fighting Red multiple times is one thing (just make him more interesting as a character and fighter).
I would've loved to fight Gold, Brendan, May, Kris, Lyra, Silver, and the rest of them though.
I would've loved to fight Gold, Brendan, May, Kris, Lyra, Silver, and the rest of them though.
Problem with that is you have to make a canon team for all of them and I doubt people could agree enough to do that. Going by the same logic as Red, Gold's canon team would be [starter], Togetic, Sudowoodo, Dragonite, one of the Hitmons, and one of the Eeveelutions which is kind of underwhelming. Brendan/May's is even worse: [starter], Castform, Kecleon, Wobbuffet, one of the fossils, and Metagross.
The gimmick worked for Red but I think repeating it for every generation would fall flat.
I always thought it'd be cool for a Red-style match with the Gen 3 protags to be a double battle where they team up with Norman considering that's the gen that introduced doubles
I think the source on Red's team was less Yellow's Giftmons and more the anime. Pikachu, 3 starters, Snorlax, and Lapras were all mons used by Ash. It's also 3 starters and 3 with a lot of publicity. Based on a combo of that and the rival fights, here's an option for the canon teams. Lots of them are only 5 mons, but I figured listing 5 was better than picking a 6th at random the way Espeon seemed to be chosen.
Gold: Meganium, Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Heracross, Noctowl, Donphan. I'd run Togetic over Noctowl, but basically any Johto mon for the final 2 slots seems fine.
Silver: Sneasel, Crobat, Magneton, Gengar, Alakazam, and one other. TTar seems obvious, but again, plenty of options work.
Ruby: Blaziken, Swampert, Sceptile, Swellow, Glalie, any other. The starters+Ash's Hoenn mons, with type overlaps eliminated.
Sapphire: Delcatty, Beautifly, Wailord, Breloom, Camerupt, any other. This is a combo of May's anime team and your rival's team from RS. Side note, May catches jack-all for Hoenn mons, and your rival has nothing available except FWG. The options here were very limited.
Wally: Altaria, Delcatty, Roselia, Magneton, Gardevoir, one other. This was easy, it's literally his final team.
You could give Ruby Torkoal+Corphish and Sapphire Blaziken, but I prefered the Red/Blue dichotomy of one side getting the starters, the other getting the non-starters, rather than Anime loyalty.
Silver: Sneasel, Crobat, Magneton, Gengar, Alakazam, and one other. TTar seems obvious, but again, plenty of options work.
Ruby: Blaziken, Swampert, Sceptile, Swellow, Glalie, any other. The starters+Ash's Hoenn mons, with type overlaps eliminated.
Sapphire: Delcatty, Beautifly, Wailord, Breloom, Camerupt, any other. This is a combo of May's anime team and your rival's team from RS. Side note, May catches jack-all for Hoenn mons, and your rival has nothing available except FWG. The options here were very limited.
Wally: Altaria, Delcatty, Roselia, Magneton, Gardevoir, one other. This was easy, it's literally his final team.
You could give Ruby Torkoal+Corphish and Sapphire Blaziken, but I prefered the Red/Blue dichotomy of one side getting the starters, the other getting the non-starters, rather than Anime loyalty.
Eh, if they're just doing one "player character" team, it would probably have all three starters. Means you would probably still be stuck with one deadweight, but that's just equivalent Red's pikachu.
Yellow itself is based on the anime so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Regardless, Red's team very clearly isn't directly based on the anime - if it were, his Venusaur and Blastoise shouldn't be evolved, and he should be using a Pidgeot or Primeape or Muk in place of Snorlax because Ash doesn't use that until the Orange Islands. There's no need to overthink it, it literally is just Pikachu+all three starters+the forced encounter mons. Espeon isn't a random choice, it's the Eevee you get from Celadon Mansion. Espeon was probably chosen because it fills a type gap, and because the RBY games don't have a nighttime (thus Gen I players are always in the day). HGSS probably switched it to Lapras because it makes more sense for Red to have 6 Kanto mons, and because it benefits from the hail.
If you're going to make the argument that it's based on the anime then it's just as plausibly based on the manga because Red uses an Espeon there.
These are nice and everything, but you're literally demonstrating the point I was making - people aren't going to be able to agree enough to make canon teams. You can pluck literally any six Pokemon out of the ether and say "there, that's their canon team" but someone else will be able to argue their chosen picks. Another poster could come along any minute and give their chosen six, and so could someone else, and then we'd all be arguing and we wouldn't get anywhere because no-one's opinion has any more weight or validity than anyone else's*. If I cared to, I could vehemently argue that Delcatty shouldn't be part of Wally's canon team because he doesn't use it in rematches in ORAS, or that because official artwork tends to show Lucas with Turtwig, Barry with Chimchar, and Dawn with Piplup then that makes them their canon starters.
What I was said was "following the logic of Red's team" ie starters+giftmons, but the giftmons in later games aren't as good as the RBY ones hence why I said their teams would be underwhelming.
Anime teams don't really bear any relation to the games because the Pokemon the main cast in the anime use are just those which are considered most marketable and/or recognisable. Hence Iris having a slightly odd set of Pokemon like Emolga and Gible (even though Ash has one too) and Dawn's Piplup never evolving. They literally stated that this was because Piplup was more marketable than Prinplup or Empoleon. There's no reason to think of them as having any relation to the games.
*plus I'm pretty sure that's wishlisting and thus against the rules of the thread
I thought it referenced Red's Eevee, Vee, evolving into Espeon in the Gold/Silver chapter of Adventures. The dates might not match up though. On a related note, I like Red having an Espeon because it can be contrasted by an Umbreon, and who's non-game counterpart gets an Umbreon?
No, as long as it doesn't get out of hand like EVERYONE suggesting teams, a little speculation is fine (thus, I won't be suggesting teams).
That said, I wouldn't say the teams are as "locked" as you think they are. Case and point, Let's Go. In those games they did something I really liked: Red, Blue, and Green each had one of the Starters. This meant each of them couldn't have the teams they normally would, plus they didn't want to have Type overlap so some additional changes need to be made. For reference here are their Let's Go teams (bolding notable changes or, in Green's case, inclusions):
- Red: Venusaur, Pikachu, Snorlax, Lapras, Arcanine, Machamp
- Blue: Charizard, Alakazam, Gyarados, Exeggutor, Aerodactyl, Tauros
- Green: Blastoise, Clefable, Gengar, Victreebel, Ninetales, Kangaskhan
Now, for the most part, Red & Blue's team remain the same except for two. In Red's case, since he doesn't have Charizard but Blue does, they gave him Arcanine which Blue normally has. However, since Red has a Lapras, he doesn't need the Gyarados (it stayed with Blue since he still needed a Water-type). So, following another pattern they set up with the Gen I protags which I'll get to, they gave him Machamp which is sometimes used by Blue when he's either not using his Rhydon/Rhyperior and/or when they don't feel like overlapping Types so replaces his Alakazam with it (since Exeggutor is part Psychic and he still needs a Grass-type).
Trace's second "ace" and eventual Mega Pokemon is Pidgeot which is normally a Pokemon that Blue has. However, beginning B2W2 they started to replace it with Aerodactyl. So Aerodactyl's placement here isn't too odd but could be an ongoing trend that, outside of Battle Facilities, the day of Blue's team containing a Pidgeot may be gone. However, with Aerodactyl being Rock-type, that meant they couldn't give Blue his usual Rhydon (it was left as Giovanni's ace). So, following another pattern, they gave him a new Normal-type in Tauros. At first seems like a random pick, but minus Aerodactyl his team is the same as one of the dummied out Professor Oak's teams in Gen I, specifically the one if you picked Squirtle as your Starter (as that would leave Charmander behind which Oak would have raised into a Charizard).
Only notable thing about Green's team is she has Blastoise thus Red doesn't. Otherwise, might as well then go into the new pattern they used to make the Gen I protags teams. In addition to each having a Starter, all of them also have a Fire/Grass/Normal-types, Pokemon that evolves by Trading, Pokemon that evolves by an Evo Stone, and each has at least one Type unique to them (this pattern is also true if you add in Trace's team: Jolteon/Raichu, Pidgeot, Vileplume, Rapidash, Slowbro, Marowak).
Now, part of this is likely because they were limited to the original 150 and wanted to include Green; but still it shows they're not afraid to shake-up the formula if it means making more interesting teams for the main protags. Now, to do a similar idea in the other games, the only gens they could have problems with is Gen V, & VI. Gen V technically has two sets of trios, and while B2W2 is good to go there's the issue of the original; though if they keep Cheren a Normal-type specialist and give Bianca the other Starter than there's no problem. Gen VI problem isn't that there isn't a trio to get the Starter, is that there's extra baggage; while Calem, Serena, and Shauna will get get the Starters, will since they have Shauna would be a bit awkward to leave Trevor and Tierno out (though those two they can do whatever they want with as they have their own quirks/gimmick).
But, yeah, I so no reason why the other Protags can't be included and given interesting teams either following their own unique patterns or just going "screw it" and giving them a nice well rounded team made of Pokemon from their generation, only needing some to have some connection with the character.
I agree with this, and it is yet another reason as for why I liked how you didn't get to battle the B/W protagonist in B2/W2. Because if you had been able to battle them, what would their team have been? I can't really think of anything good that "everyone" would agree with. To tell the truth, I don't fully agree with the choices for Red's team in the Johto games either. That said, I guess they could have utilized Memory Link for it in B2/W2, but even then, I think there would have been issues. Plus, I really dislike the idea of turning the B/W protagonist into a lifeless, hollow, silent NPC like Red ended up being outside of the Kanto games. My unpopular opinion still stands, I liked how you didn't get to battle the B/W protagonist in B2/W2. I also like how you don't get to battle the protagonist(s) from other games in any other generations either. Except Red, as well as Green in LGP/E. Now that I look back at it, I sort of dislike how they have forced Red into so many games, making him an NPC in the first place was a bad decision IMO. Perhaps that's an unpopular opinion?
I think it is the other way around. I get the impression that the games were released long before the manga revealed that Red's Eevee had evolved into Espeon. Checking the G/S/C chapter of the manga now, it debuts as an Espeon in chapter 115, which is at the end of volume 9. It feels to me that this chapter of the manga was originally published quite long after the games were released. So I think it was the other way around, the manga gave Red an Espeon in order to reference Red having an Espeon in the games.
It's fun to theorize about other protagonists' canon teams but I would not be a fan of implementing such fights in games as super bosses, ala Red. It would dilute the significance of that Red fight. The concept of the Red fight isn't just a good concept, it's practically a necessity for me to consider HGSS good games personally.
Johto and Kanto have a unique dynamic amongst regions whereby Johto is almost like a little brother to Kanto. They're right next to each other and Kanto casts a shadow over Johto both literally and figuratively. Literally, Kanto is a fair amount larger than Johto in both size and population based on the Japanese regions they're inspired by. Figuratively, Kanto is much more modern and cutting edge while Johto appears behind the times in comparison.
Pokémon wise, Johto is pretty clearly framed as inferior. Many Johto Pokémon have Kanto ties in the form of their evolutions, and the number of Johto Pokémon count 33% less than Kanto. Battling wise, Johto Pokémon also fall short. Half the Johto gym leaders using Kanto aces speaks to even the Johto natives believing their native Pokémon aren't up to the task of living up to Kanto.
Additionally, Johto is the only region which does not have its own Elite Four. Some may claim Johto and Kanto share an Elite Four but I think it really belongs to Kanto. You're literally in Kanto from a map perspective once you're at Indigo Plateau. Yet another example of Kanto overshadowing Johto.
Which is why I think the underlying theme of GSC and HGSS is that it's up to YOU as the protagonist to carry the torch for Johto and prove that it can compete with the vaunted Kanto region. It's like an underdog story in a way. Which is why I try to use only Johto Pokémon on my GSC and HGSS playthroughs, despite how difficult that is to do in these games, since it's thematically significant to me.
And it's also why, again, I believe the Red fight at the end of these games is a necessity to close the narrative and prove that Johto has finally arrived, by beating the greatest Kanto trainer. No other pair of regions has this kind of dynamic which is why I don't see the point of implementing such fights with other protagonists in other games. It would only serve to dilute the significance of the one time where it makes sense.
The only other time of course being B2W2 in my opinion, but I already expounded on that earlier in this thread. It's a somewhat similar concept, though not so much regional based as much as surpassing someone who did what you did (defeating Team Plasma) except did it better since he faced them in their prime, and did it before you.
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No, what dilutes the Red fight is them using him over and over because he's the ONLY former protagonist you can battle as an NPC. Now, this probably wouldn't stop the reuses of Red, the only instance it possibly would may be for Sun & Moon (and even then possibly wouldn't prevent it cause 20th anniversary).
To be fair, context is important, you can't just toss in a previous game protag without there being a reason. To be fair the only immediate "logical" other protag fight would be the BW protag in B2W2 that was planned & scrapped. All the others they would have to come up with a workaround reason (if anything at all). Also, the timeline is important here as we can't have Ethan/Kris & Lucas/Dawn appearing in the Kanto or Hoenn games, and from then on in remakes we can't have protags from future games show up (the only exception being B2W2 as they supposedly took place at the same time as XY, but then you'd have to come up with a reason why Calem/Serena took a trip to Unova. Of course, I say all this while Sun & Moon has Cynthia and Wally for no particular reason show up in the Battle Tree. Say, how about instead of those two, we included the previous protagonists. Heck, considering in Sun & Moon the player becomes Alola's first champion, Red (& Blue) run the Battle Tree, and its an anniversary game why not have had at least one protag from every region appear in the Battle Tree. Wouldn't even need to explain who they are aside from a Champion from another region. They wouldn't even need to make official teams for them, just give them a batch of good mons from their generation to pick randomly (maybe making sure they pick at least one of the Starters) and there ya go!
Also, if having other protags being battle-able in other games somehow takes away your enjoyment of Red being battle-able in HGSS, I gotta ask: Are you SURE you like the Red battle in HGSS (or Johto games in general)? Because it sounds like you actually don't, you only accept it because its the only former protag that can be battled, which isn't a good way to look at it.
I think you're seeing things a bit too literally. The problem with the way they have presented Johto is that it didn't exist when they were making the first games. In-lore, the Gen I Pokemon in Johto are just as native as the new Gen II Pokemon (heck, they also have Gen II Pokemon appearing in Kanto including some exclusives (though that was probably a bad idea in the long run)). They're on the same landmass, they share the same shoreline, Pokemon from one are going to cross over to the other. It's not strange for half the Gym Leaders to be using Gen I mons because to them they are using native Pokemon, it's just out of meta the player saw that Pokemon a few years ago in the original Gen I games.
Johto isn't behind the times, its meant to be a counterpart to the more technologcial Kanto by focusing on traditions and history. Now, it could be because we're not native Japanese we miss a lot of these cultural reference, but to say they're "behind the times" is shortsighted to what they're trying to do with Johto. If Johto was just as technological as Kanto it would feel even more like just an expansion pack.
But yeah, a lot of Johto mons fall short. I mean, who uses Azumarill, Wobbuffet, Heracross, Sneasel, Skarmory, Donphan, Smeargle, Miltank, and Tyranitar? LOSERS, that's who. These Pokemon can't stack up to the likes of Butterfree, Beedrill, Raticate, Arbok, Wigglytuff, Vileplume, Venomoth, Dugtrio, Persian, Golduck, Victreebel, Golem, Rapidash, Farfetch'd, Dewgong, Hypno, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Tangela, & Seaking; all works of art and masters of battle. And how dare Johto defile Gen I Pokemon by giving them inferior evolutions like Crobat, Steelix, Scizor, Kingdra, & Blissey; without Johto they wouldn't exist and all their superior prevos would be better off for it!... This is sarcasm BTW. Sure, all Gen II Pokemon aren't winners, but neither are Gen I. Also should the number of Pokemon really be held against Johto? Okay, it has less Pokemon... so what? You wanted 150 new Pokemon and only them in the Johto? While I give crap to GF for sometimes not thinking ahead, I'll give early GF credit for thinking ahead about not only restraining the amount of new Pokemon but also using older Pokemon to fill out regional dexes cause there's nothing wrong with the older Pokemon so are vital tools.
But you're right about the Elite Four belonging to Kanto which is why it's located deep within Kanto, they don't accept the Johto Badges and they kept the Elite Four exactly the same as the Gen I games. Oh, wait, it's inbetween both Regions, they do accept the Johto Badges, and the only returning Elite Four members are Bruno and sorta Lance though he's now Champion; Lance who btw is from Blackthorn City which is located in Johto so the current Champion of the Indigo League is a Johtian (and the new "top" of the Elite Four uses the new Dark-type that was introduced in Gen II).
Also, could it also be a reason you feel Kanto is superior is because it was made the post game area thus every trainer there was given a higher level in order to keep up with the player? It's personally why I would like to see a game which starts out in Kanto but then lets the player go into Johto, to see how the Johto region adjusts to being the post game area that has to have the higher level trainers.
I just want to note that you have an interesting perspective of this and I can see where you're coming from. It is certainly Johto showing they're as good as a region Kanto is... but I also feel that's done more through exploring the region and seeing what it has to offer than a hero of Johto coming to kick the butt of the previous protag. Because, he's a problem with that: we're no longer playing Red. Now he's just another NPC, controlled by the computer and, while made tough, was also made to lose just from the fact his Pokemon are locked. While if you lose to him you can go back and train, Red will never change his team, raise their levels, or change their Move. It's only a matter of time before you defeat Red. And, as I noted, the Champion is already a Johtian, if anything Johto has proven itself capable and its more Kanto is sort of stagnating. Though, once again, is it actually stagnating OR is it just that way to the player because we played the Kanto games so we know all about Kanto thus only the new stuff and what's going on with the characters has any novelty.
You're right, no other regions shares the dichotomy of Kanto & Johto, but that shouldn't mean characters from different regions can't interact with one another. Also when one of the core concepts of Pokemon is "being THE master" which seems to indicate being the strongest trainer, well, why wouldn't the other player characters go out looking for the other/future player characters?