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Little things you like about Pokémon
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Another thing to note is that Absol showed up in Route 213 in Sinnoh and Route 13 in Unova. My favorite Absol fact is that while Absol showing up near Giant Chasm references the Kyurem landing there, it's also foreshadowing B2W2 with Team Plasma capturing Kyurem and the plot climax occurring there.
Yeah, it has existed since as long as I can remember. I joined the online fandom in the late Gen 3 days so I can't say from experience how it was before Gen 4, but as R_N and ZettaiRyouiki confirmed, it happened back during Gen 3 as well. It seems like it has always been a common criticism when it comes to new Pokémon. I think it is funny when you look at it because it feels to me that saying Pokémon "look like Digimon" implies that Pokémon is something good, while Digimon is bad. I don't know a lot about Digimon but it would be hilarious if it was the other way around in that fandom, new Digimon are revealed and fans complain by saying that "they look just like Pokémon!".
I thought of another thing. Let's take something negative and turn it into something positive! I dislike the changes to the battle system in L:A, but playing through that game also made me realize how much I like the traditional battle system in the regular main series games. I can definitely appreciate it a lot more after playing L:A. I have always liked the traditional battle system in Pokémon so let's give some praise to it.
I really like how both you and your opponent get to make your decision for the turn at the same time, then the Pokémon with the highest speed stat gets to move first. Raising your Speed stat allows you to move before those with a lower speed stat if you get above their speed stat. Damage calculations are great as it feels like most things actually matter (Nature, types, base power, stats, stat boosts, levels, etc.) which means there are a lot of things you need to take into account, especially if you are playing on a competitive or semi-competitive level. Defensive Pokémon have actual value as they can tank hits, while offensive Pokémon are great too as they can deal heavy damage to opponents.
The above might just be stating the obvious, but I recently realized how much I like the traditional battle system in Pokémon. Like with dexit, sometimes you don't realize how great something is until it is gone... but at least the traditional battle system will make a grand return in S/V! Or so I hope, otherwise I will be very disappointed.
Well, in Blaziken's case I think people were calling it a Digimon because there are a lot of humanoid Digimon and Blaziken is more humanoid than Charizard and Typhlosion.
Yes, the "too humanoid" sentiment existed back then too. The more things change.
Yes, the "too humanoid" sentiment existed back then too. The more things change.
Tangent: funny you should mention that, because I think Digimon started looking like Pokémon fairly quickly. Compare Agumon (sharp claws, large head with detailed eyes, bulging veins in some artwork) to Lopmon and Terriermon, which are basically long-eared Pikaclones. Agu was there from the beginning in 1997, while Lop and Terrier are from circa 2000.
Also, my spiciest take is that a lot of Gen 2 Pokémon look like Tamagotchis, which I guess is the polar opposite of looking like Digimon.
On-topic, a good thing about Pokémon designs is that they're fairly unique. People love to point-and-laugh at the "just animals/objects" designs from Gen 1, but that was before the brand had much of an identity. I realised the other day that Avalugg is probably my favourite "object Pokémon" design because people don't think of it as an object. Icebergs exist in nature, and its aircraft carrier elements are subtle. (Also, Bergmite looks exactly like a Mini Freezard in Train Zelda.)
My "it looks like a digimon" moment was with Black and White Kyurem's reveal. Until we get waifumons comparable to Angewomon or Mervamon that make Salazzle look prudish, I don't think we've crossed the threshold just yet.
Don't give them ideas, Gardevoir and Lopunny already created very questionable art as is...
There's acknowledging horniness, and then there's actively encouraging it (semi NSFW links, both official btw).
Scraggy and Scrafty could be argued to have jorts, however.
Incidentally it's potentially why people dislike edgier designs of 3-5; 2 is extremely cutesy and contemporary even to Gen 1. People only associate the two cuz watercolor and cross evos, but similar to how Gen 4 crossevos were radically different in design scheme, Gen 2s also were compared to 1
I never thought Blaziken looked like a Digimon but I will say it's the Pokémon responsible for my first "that doesn't look like a Pokémon" moment, which might annoy some.
I distinctly remember as a prepubescent 12 year old playing Ruby not even having an issue with Combusken. But when it evolved into Blaziken I almost had the feeling of wanting a refund. The hair was the most jarring part of it at the time. Still one of my least favorite final starter designs as the way the legs look like bell bottom pants is almost equally as jarring as Blaziken's hair.
One little thing I do like about Blaziken though are its hands. Doubling as chicken appendages as well as wrapped hands ala professional fighters is a pretty clever touch. So that's something I guess.
Yeah even when I don't really like a Pokemon's design, there's almost always at least one element that makes me go 'oh that's clever' or 'that's so silly that I can't help but enjoy it'
Transitioning to a different topic, DPPt makes an interesting, subtle (though most likely completely inadvertent) commentary about depression. Probably best fleshed out in Platinum, I've recently come to appreciate the two sides of the same coin dynamic between Volkner and Cyrus, particularly as I've aged into adulthood.
Two characters, both coincidentally from Sunnyshore City, gifted scientists/engineers, suffering from some form of depression. Yet one (Volkner) uses this feeling to drive towards producing beneficial tools for humanity, such as his inspired Gym design which eventually precipitated the solar panel powered roads Sunnyshore runs on. The guy is pretty clearly an asset to society overall.
On the other hand Cyrus, also with an interest in alternative energy as well as genetics, amongst other scientific interests, uses his gifted mind to produce tools which only serve to benefit him and him alone (not even Team Galactic, leave alone society at large). His tools are meant to break humanity down, not lift it up on his own two shoulders. A true narcissist if there ever was one and a true parasite to society.
I guess the little thing I like about this yin yang dichotomy is shedding light on intellectually gifted individuals who suffer from depression (whether the two are correlated or not is not something I will address here) and how the individual can either choose to channel this mixed bag of energy towards positivity or negativity, and what a fine line it is that separates the two. I could very well be projecting as someone who suffers from depression on occasion myself, but it's something I like reading into and interpreting as such within the confines of the game.
Two characters, both coincidentally from Sunnyshore City, gifted scientists/engineers, suffering from some form of depression. Yet one (Volkner) uses this feeling to drive towards producing beneficial tools for humanity, such as his inspired Gym design which eventually precipitated the solar panel powered roads Sunnyshore runs on. The guy is pretty clearly an asset to society overall.
On the other hand Cyrus, also with an interest in alternative energy as well as genetics, amongst other scientific interests, uses his gifted mind to produce tools which only serve to benefit him and him alone (not even Team Galactic, leave alone society at large). His tools are meant to break humanity down, not lift it up on his own two shoulders. A true narcissist if there ever was one and a true parasite to society.
I guess the little thing I like about this yin yang dichotomy is shedding light on intellectually gifted individuals who suffer from depression (whether the two are correlated or not is not something I will address here) and how the individual can either choose to channel this mixed bag of energy towards positivity or negativity, and what a fine line it is that separates the two. I could very well be projecting as someone who suffers from depression on occasion myself, but it's something I like reading into and interpreting as such within the confines of the game.
No, I think this is spot-on. Volkner's approach to his listlessness is to decide to leave town and tackle a new challenge - he's finished with his project of renovating the city, so he figures there's nothing for him in Sunyshore anymore. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call it a full-blown depression but it's definitely a crisis of purpose, which can be a major factor.
It can be very easy to sink into your despair and let your issues consume you. Volkner is an example of someone refusing to do so (which is pretty much the ethos Pokemon promotes at every opportunity, to be fair) - rather than staying stuck, he instead decides to change his circumstances.
Cyrus instead chooses to wallow in his misery and inflict it on others. Cynthia even calls him out on it in Platinum: "Why do you seek to change the world? If you hate our world you should just go off somewhere alone. Find somewhere where you can live without seeing others." To which Cyrus basically responds that there's no reason that he should have to do anything; he'd rather inflict his vision on the world so that everyone has to live the way he wants to. The very embodiment of misery loving company.
It's for that reason that I don't find him a very compelling character, in comparison to, say, Archie or Maxie. He isn't doing what he's doing for some noble cause he truly believes in, it's because he's choosing to make his issues everyone else's problem.
Wow. Those were extreme. I'm glad Pokémon doesn't have any designs like that, not for any actual Pokémon nor for any of the human characters in the series. But it's not like they need to do make any official desings like that as the fandom have created more than enough of them.
There was another thing from earlier I was going to reply to buy forgot about.
Personally, I liked Azelf's "quiz" the best. I thought it was idiotic at first but then I realized what it had actually been doing and I loved it. I think Uxie's was great too though. I also beat it on the first try, though I had to read the instructions twice in order to figure out what I was supposed to do.
Regarding Volkner, he is my favorite Sinnoh Gym Leader because I can relate to his burnout on Pokémon. It has happened to me as well, the notable thing being that the first time it happened was during the Gen 4 days. I first had a mini-burnout as I was playing through the main game of Diamond, then I got fully burnt out towards the end of 2008.
On to another thing. In the wild areas in S/S, it is possible to zoom the camera (in our out, at set distances) if you press the right control stick. I noticed this for the first time today, it only took me over 200 hours of gameplay time to find out that this was possible.
It would be cool if in some video game there was a challenge that seems like that kind of patience test but actually is only solved when you give up. Would be a nice subversion of expectations.
Only point I disagree with is this one. It's for the reasons I've stated that are exactly why I find Cyrus a compelling character - because he is a true, unadulterated villain. He is a bad guy, make no mistake about it and unfortunately bad people do exist in the real world. Everyone has there sympathetic qualities sure, but some people are truly those society would be better off without. They leech off of society like parasites without giving anything in return.
This is why villains like Darth Vader and the Joker work. Sure they have their traumatic backstories. But they ultimately, to your point, choose to inflict their pain and misery upon other people. That's just flat out bad, but great from a storytelling perspective. All of these villains epitomize the phrase "hurt people hurt people". Cyrus is one of the better fictional examples of that phrase that I can think of, which is why he vaults to the top of my list of Pokémon antagonists.
I agree.
I think modern games (Pokemon included) try a bit too hard to make "bad guys that arent really bad just misunderstood or mistaken but with good intentions".
However... some of the historically most loved "bad guys" like Sephiroth from FF7, some of the "bad guys" from Persona 4/5 or Jack-The-Nice from Borderlands are good because they're... just insane and evil. There's no redemption, no high and mightly aim, no attempt to make the world better. Just "fuck everyone I'm better than you".
I don't think a "enemy character" needs to be dismissed just because his reasonings are "cause he's evil". In fact, if they're written properly, they're actually solid villains.
Villains need to
-make you feel something
-have good prescence, even if not doing dirty work directly (this especially)*
-not be pathetic, even if bumbling
They can be simple or complex, the main thing is those 3 concepts
This kinda why I find Gen 2, 6, and 8 kinda poor for villainry. TR was a mess in Johto despite the Slowpoke business, Lysandre was so bland despite attempting to nuke the planet to where the anime made him better
And then 8's sad
*Kinda don't want to have your villain not be known to the protags until literally the last minute. Anastasia's Rasputin despite great acting and character suffered that
*Also don't accidentally make the pawns more interesting than the main villain. Even 80s Skeletor and AoStH had higher scene prescence than their lackeys
As such, Cyrus despite rocky start in DP has something really good. Same with OG Archie and Maxie, despite technical incompetence, both achieved their goal and were 1 step ahead most cases
-make you feel something
-have good prescence, even if not doing dirty work directly (this especially)*
-not be pathetic, even if bumbling
They can be simple or complex, the main thing is those 3 concepts
This kinda why I find Gen 2, 6, and 8 kinda poor for villainry. TR was a mess in Johto despite the Slowpoke business, Lysandre was so bland despite attempting to nuke the planet to where the anime made him better
And then 8's sad
*Kinda don't want to have your villain not be known to the protags until literally the last minute. Anastasia's Rasputin despite great acting and character suffered that
*Also don't accidentally make the pawns more interesting than the main villain. Even 80s Skeletor and AoStH had higher scene prescence than their lackeys
As such, Cyrus despite rocky start in DP has something really good. Same with OG Archie and Maxie, despite technical incompetence, both achieved their goal and were 1 step ahead most cases
The thing with villains in mainline Pokémon is that they get in your way. They are not part of your character's story arc. You have a goal, and they interrupt it.
Which is why BW1's story glues so well. Team Plasma is part of the story because you are in a race against N to see who gets to be the Champion. The villain plot actually has to do with the main story unlike every other game where it is "let's hold off the story; kick some bad buys' butts for a while".
Which is why BW1's story glues so well. Team Plasma is part of the story because you are in a race against N to see who gets to be the Champion. The villain plot actually has to do with the main story unlike every other game where it is "let's hold off the story; kick some bad buys' butts for a while".
Technically in Gen 1 they are part of your story arc since Giovanni is the last Gym Leader. Though it does feel a bit forced since Team Rocket kinda disbands without any fanfare, unlike in gen 2 where their ultimate plan just fails.
Each to their own. I personally don't find Cyrus interesting as a person. I like the Sinnoh games and Team Galactic as a whole, he's just not my favourite villain - I find the others a whole lot more compelling.
And his backstory is pretty cool, but I wish we'd seen a bit more of it.
Only in recent gens, though. Team Rocket are very much out-and-out bad guys with very little in the way of redeeming features. Though FRLGHGSS did try that for a few of them, so your point stands.
Something does occur to me about Team Rocket, though, and that's that they're the only villainous team where they all know what they're doing. Their goal is to make money and steal valuable Pokemon, and that's about it. Later gens, again probably in an effort to make the bad guys more complex, have the majority of underlings and grunts unaware of their bosses' grand plans.
- The Aqua/Magma grunts all - on the surface at least - share Archie and Maxie's vision of more water/more land. But there's a sense that many of them aren't aware of the bigger picture or of the implications of what awakening Kyogre/Groudon will do. Most of them seem to just be aware of the goals of their specific mission - "we have to steal a thing" - and likely don't know how it'll play into their wider goals.
- It's stated outright that a lot of Team Galactic have no idea what Cyrus plans - Saturn being the most prominent among them. In the Adventures manga, the Grunts are literally mind-controlled.
- This is a major plot point with Team Plasma. Ghetsis's rhetoric about releasing Pokemon is just part of a plan to have him rule Unova, and many of the grunts and underlings in TP are genuinely well-intentioned (we even meet one in Alola who later became part of the Aether Foundation).
- I'm less familiar with XY so I won't talk too much about Team Flare; if I'm wrong someone will probably correct me. I don't think all of them are aware?
- The majority of Aether Foundation workers aren't aware of Lusamine's true goal and mainly focus on conservation work. Team Skull aren't the "true" evil team of SMUSUM so don't count.
I honestly can't remember whether Lysandre's plan includes all of his underlings; I know he states his goal is to wipe out anyone not in Team Flare, so it probably does. I've a general disengagement with the Kalos saga in general, and he's a pretty dull villain to me too. But I'm going to be replaying X fairly soon, so I'm going to keep an eye out for that.
Yeah that was mostly what I was pointing at...
I don't say that either direction is "wrong", there's both "bad because yes" and "bad because misguided" villains that have epic backgrounds and are memorable, just the last 5 years or so too many franchises try far too hard to make the "redeemable bad guy" trope that it really got both boring and is often done poorly.
Even as gen 8 apologist, and liking the idea behind how gen 8 story was structured, they could have done much more with Rose.
I actually really enjoyed the fact that whole SwSh you're told "it's ok kid go have fun with your friend and pokemon let the adults handle the fuck is going on". It's down-to-earth, why would they trust a random 11 year old with the task of dealing with nature disasters after all? It's logic to have the Champion, tecnically strongest trainer on the planet, as well as basically politicians in Rose & co deal with them.
The entire idea behind Rose's troubles, the energy conservation shenenigans, is also a interesting hint to modern world issues but like... they really flopped in dulling it down to a very small narrative moment out of nowhere during the finals.
Expecially as it doesn't even make sense, if you've waited for X years to finish awakening Eternatus, why do it exactly during the finals dragging everyone's attention, instead of waiting 1 day and doing it with everyone helping? You still achieve exactly the same, and 1 day doesn't change much if the supposed crysis is supposed to happen in thousands of years anyway.
But they went too hard in making Rose "desperate to help" to the point he went from interesting to bland and not-believable.
Meanwhile you have direct opposite in Arceus where the main story "villain" is just crazed pokemon + a leader that (rightfully) doesn't trust some kid coming from spacetime rifts, and the postgame story just having a flat insane guy with obsession for power.
And guess what that plot works MUCH better because they didn't try to make them look "nice" or "righteous". Their reasonings are simple, clear, and there's no fuckery with ideals or "making the world a better place" or bullshit like that.
That was a bit too long, TLDR: If you want to make a villain that's morally driven, it needs a good believable story to go with it, just slapping a fancy motivation on it doesn't work and just makes them non believable and fall flat. Otherwise it's much better to just have "because yes" villains and just make them despicable.
To be fair, Archie and Maxie themselves have no idea of the bigger picture, especially in the originals.
The entire team, leader included, is in the same boat. A boat of ignorance.