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Pokemon Scarlet & Violet - 18th Nov 2022! **OFFICIAL INFO ONLY**
- Thread starter DHR-107
- Start date
Welp, it looks like Game Freak is continuing with the trend of absolutely refusing to make a decent video game, which has been their MO for over a decade now. I'm not even disappointed and I'm certainly not surprised, moreso amused. For starters, just look at the visuals - I understand that graphics are not the end all be all of a game's quality, but the fact that there are Wii and even Gamecube (Pikmin 2, Metroid Prime, etc) games which visually blow SV out of the water can only be described as laughable and sad. This is the highest grossing media franchise in the world, they have absolutely no excuses, and the fans' overall lack of standards is truly mystifying. You should expect MUCH better. Don't even get me started on how they removed a significant amount of Pokemon (you know, the game's core content) from the game entirely and people just... don't seem to care anymore. Or how they have not evolved the game's core gameplay loop of picking a super effective Pokemon and mashing A since the 1990s. Part of me wants to encourage you all to "vote with your wallet" so to speak and not buy these games due to their appalling lack of quality and evidently rushed development, but I know that such a call to action would be entirely pointless. Pokemon fans have the worst case of "consumer brain" of perhaps any franchise on this earth. If other companies, whether it's gaming, film, music, etc, continued to pump out these sorry excuses for underdeveloped cash grabs every year, they would not only get lampooned, but I believe many people would stop buying them. For some reason, this doesn't apply to Pokemon, and as a result Game Freak has learned that they don't need to put in any amount of effort or quality into their games, because people will simply buy them anyways - just look at Sword and Shield. I guess capitalism does funny things to people's brains.
On a more positive note, I've regardless very much enjoyed reading through this thread and hearing everyone's thoughts. In an age where the quick dopamine hits of social media such as Reddit and Twitter rule peoples' brains, it's such a refreshing change of pace to browse an old school forum where people can have an actual discussion, and I'm grateful to everyone who contributed to this thread with thoughtful posts and made for a good reading experience. However, I wanted to give special shoutouts to this post:
On a more positive note, I've regardless very much enjoyed reading through this thread and hearing everyone's thoughts. In an age where the quick dopamine hits of social media such as Reddit and Twitter rule peoples' brains, it's such a refreshing change of pace to browse an old school forum where people can have an actual discussion, and I'm grateful to everyone who contributed to this thread with thoughtful posts and made for a good reading experience. However, I wanted to give special shoutouts to this post:
for being one of the most bafflingly silly, common sense breaking, basic logic defying statements I've ever had the displeasure of reading in my 15+ years in this franchise. Really? The reason ice types are late game is because freeze, the status with ZERO (yes count them, zero) ways to reliably be inflicted is the reason? Is that why in almost every game, grass types that can learn sleep moves at an early level are available near the beginning? Surely it has nothing to do with ice's near universally strong offensive matchups vs common in game types such as birds, standard rock/grounds, and grasses, or the design of the ice type Pokemon themselves. Thanks for the good laugh mate.
Well its clear that Terastal isn't natural just like Dynamax. Obviously can't say in what way it's not natural lorewise just yet, but the Tera Types don't indicate that something about the Pokemon's genetics means it was meant to be a certain Type, otherwise a Pokemon would only be able to Terastallize into Types its final evo could be.
Believe me, I'm one of the people to cry out when something doesn't fit in lorewise *points to my complaints about the Hisuian Starters when they were first revealed*. As of right now, with the limited info we have, I don't see anything wrong with Eevee and Terastal.
That said, Eevee and Hidden Power though might have had a long hidden lore problem...
Okay, maybe Koraidon might be 90/100, though Miraidon has a jet engine which brings to mind the Eon Duo who both have a Speed of 110.
Um, we complain and joke about the graphics all the time. But the issue is GF don't seem to think its a top priority and GF are very selective hearers, if they listen to the playerbase at all. They're not only the highest grossing media franchise but also their offices are now right across from Nintendo's HQ, there is no reason they can't hire more or just walk across the street to borrow some developers from Nintendo who are between projects/in early development of a project.
That subject has been talked to death. GF set their foot down, Limited Dex is staying (until they decide not to). The best we can hope for from Limited Dex is a better focus on the Pokemon which are present in the game. Improved Movepool, stat readjustments, slight chance of improving the animations (though they seem interested in only doing that for outside of battle *sigh* ).
Okay, question: What do you want them to do?
The core gameplay loop at this point is just the base where all other mechanics they added over the years are built atop of. Since Gen I they've added new Pokemon, new Types, new Moves, Held Items, Abilities, new battling styles like Double Battles, done the Physical/Special Split, & started adding in super mechanics. And that's just the most obvious stuff, in the background they've worked on making training and breeding easier (if not just less tedious) by providing additional ways to get Egg Moves, Hidden Abilities, adjust EVs and IVs, and essentially change its Nature.
If you're just thinking about the main game, well, the main game is meant to be beaten by 6 year olds. What can I tell ya? The main story isn't supposed to be difficult. Now, try taking your super effective button mashing tactic to the competitive scene or the post game Battle Facility area and see how far that gets you. ;) (why don't we have a winking smiley?)
You don't sound like you like Pokemon that much, why are you on these forums?
And of all Pokemon forums, it's SMOGON you come to complain about fans having "consumer brain". Smogon, the Pokemon community other communities say are uptight and take the games too serious. Smogon, where we've become so dissatisfied with the in-game battling shenanigans that we made Showdown to have easily customizable battle simulations. Smogon, where we not have only have forums dedicated to figuring the best way to building teams but also have a webazine (The Flying Press, though there's also the old issues of The Smog) full of articles of competitive analysis, teambuilding, custom battling, and general articles of interest; all which are just as critical of Pokemon as it is praising it.
Saying this in the Serebii or Bulbagarden forums I could maybe see (though still a rude thing to do), but Smogon? Talk about not reading the room.
You're joking right? You say this when The EA Sports games, all the cash grab gatcha games like Diablo Immortal, Michael Bay Transformer movies (and those are just the most notable I can think off the top of my head, Hollywood pushes out a lot of shlock films), and numerous music artists who push out an album have made hundreds of millions of dollars. This is far from a Pokemon problem.
First off, WOW, 15 years with the franchise and someone just stating they think freeze is the worst status ailment & its why they think Ice-types are reserved late game is the worst thing you've ever read concerning Pokemon? Hyperbole much?
Second, in addition to cooling off with the extravagant hyperboles, cool it with the attitude. One second you're complimenting us for having thoughtful discussions, and then the next you target someone and ridicule them. Please show respect on these forums.
Third, yes, Freeze is that much of a debilitating status ailment. Sure there's no way to guarantee a Freeze, but if you get a Pokemon Frozen then they're a sitting duck hoping to hit that 20% chance of unthawing. Heck, why do you think Freeze doesn't have a guaranteed way of inflicting it? Sure Sleep is more common and has Spore, but a sleeping Pokemon has a 50% chance of waking up each turn, much easier to handle. Freeze honestly for a long time needed some reworking to not be so overpowered that GF is afraid to make Ice early to access (or at least battle against). Now I don't see Frostbite being the answer to it, but it does show outside of the normal Pokemon formula that Freeze has problems.
And sure, Ice is strong against Flying, Grass & Ground, but Ice is weak to Fire, Fighting, & Rock (and resisted by Water). Ice is "balanced" in that regard, an early Ice-type isn't going to take the early game by storm.
Yes, but also no. The Blizzard weather is locked behind a bunch of badges, and the Ice Stone is late-game unless you get very lucky with the Dig Brothers(trust me, I've grinded for it, not fun). That sharply limits what ice-types are available. Plus most ice-types evolve in their 30s. Snorunt into Froslass or maybe Swinub are the only ones I'd say is reasonable to pick up before beating Kabu. Vanillite and Snover are available sooner than that, but have a miserable time for about 20 levels before evolving. And that's only if you are actually searching areas with Snow, if you don't have that, there's no ice-types at all*. Almost any other type has a lot more options that early.Yknow, when people say that you can't get early ice types, I feel they forgot you can get several ice types in SwSh as soon as you reach the wild area without even needing the DLCs
*Maybe in max raids there are, but 1: that's inconsistent, and 2: I'm not digging through 10 bulbapedia pages trying to figure out which ice type raids show up when.
You can also get Johtonian Sneasel fairly early in Legends, right after you unlock Distortions, you'll just have to backtrack to Obsidian Fieldlands and hope you get a distortion soon
I'm not sure why they tend to keep Ice mons for very late game but I'm glad a few of them are breaking the mold now (And with SVbeing open world either way you can just go to the ice area right away)
I'm not sure why they tend to keep Ice mons for very late game but I'm glad a few of them are breaking the mold now (And with SVbeing open world either way you can just go to the ice area right away)
lmfao i dont get how you think this take is one of the most absurd takes over the countless sea of shills and turds wanting to defend gamefreaks every misstep with the franchise be it with the dex cut, move cut, removal of options such as the forced exp share and 20 minute battle timer, worse animations than the stadium games from 20 years ago, inability to skip dialogue when every jrpg these days lets you, and many more, of which you discuss in your own post. you acknowledge how the pokemon playerbase dont seem to remotely hold any high standards for one of the most profitable ips ever and will settle for mediocrity by eating up any game on release day regardless of how much effort was actually put into those games by the big guys knowing their consumer base well, but hey, i suppose a take not even discussing any of those issues is worth wanting to attack.
have you ever wondered why game freak never made a status that solely inflicts freeze? in fact, why do you think all the moves that can cause freeze have only a 10% chance of doing so, and the one time they had a move that had more than a 10% chance to freeze, being jp rgby blizzard, they lowered it to 10% instantly for all international versions. its because freeze is fundamentally broken lmfao. yes sleep powder is often distributed fairly early on in grass types and i agree sleep is pretty busted too, and so does gamefreak which is why sleep and freeze clause were made, but theres still a noticeable difference between freeze and sleep. with sleep you are guaranteed to wake up after a few turns if you didnt wake up during the earlier turns, with freeze you are stuck there for an undefined period until the game decides to put the 20% roll is in your favor, or you happen to have a move that can thaw you which is limited to some fire moves and scald. so if some early game trainer has a spheal with powder snow and manages to get the freeze on little timmys mudkip, what is little timmy supposed to do since he probably didnt have ice heals at that point in the game? thats why when legends arceus replaced freeze with frostbite (and also sleep with drowsy), people immediately wanted to see that mechanic in, of course because of how itll remove one of the most bullshit mechanics in battles, but also because it gives more credence to gamefreak to make ice types more available earlier on.
and youre bringing up early game type matchups as a reason? my guy i dont think gamefreak really gives a shit about early game type matchups if they gave trainers the option of a fire fighting starter for three generations in a row, you know, the type combination that blazes through all the early game bugs, normals, grasses, rocks, and darks. and gamefreak has no problem distributing ground types in the early game either be it with geodude, drilbur, or the various water/grounds of the games, which have a greater amount of better type matchups than ice, all of which are still very useful to hit. as for designs, what do you mean? this is more an issue that stems from how game freak designs their regions, which is what i was concerned about in my first post. you make an ice cave or decently cold area accessible earlier on in the game and that means you get ice types earlier on, wow who could have guessed. honestly im quite baffled myself i had to lay witness to this post but nonetheless you provided a good laugh.
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Theoretically speaking, if you got an Eevee and managed to return enough parcels, you should have enough to get an Ice Stone from the trader at the beginning of the game as well.
Where do see defenders of that stuff?
Dex Cut: No one likes the Dex Cut (or Limited Dex as I call it). The only things I can think that might have made you think that was around that time people were giving GF a lot of heat so some players began a counter campaign to thank GF for their work. There was also many who said the reason for the Limited Dex was because GF were being forced to make a game every year thus had to cut corners. None of these were in support of the Limited Dex, rather one was from the result of the anger at GF and the other more trying to explain why GF was doing it, though both groups would agree it stinks they did it.
Move Cut: I wouldn't be surprised that people outside of these forums noticed GF removed Moves unless they transferred a Pokemon over with one of those Moves. No one is defending this mostly because not many care as there's enough Moves to make the game perfectly playable (though there are certainly some Moves I would have kept to fill in some gaps).
Forced EXP Share: Like, the only "defenders" I've seen of this are those who says it's not bad as long as you just keep switching around your party. Once again, this is mostly unliked as it makes the main game REALLY easy.
20 Minute Timer: Boy, up till this point I was mostly talking in a casual sense. Casual fans are generally more easy-going but they got in an uproar about Limited Dex and many don't like the Forced EXP Share. So, if casual fans don't like something, imagine how angry dedicated fans like the competitive players get? While not on the forefront, I've heard quite a few angry rants from competitive players about the 20 Minute Timer.
Worse Animations: As I said above, it's talked and joked about. I'll give you many casual fans probably just ignore it but, at least on these forums, every time a new trailer drops there's plenty of comments about the low quality graphics.
Look, I get you're defensive that Rokete targeted for essentially an odd reason, but you guys don't have to drag all the other Pokemon fans into this fight, especially with statements which aren't really true unless you're talking about a specific group (which certainly or at least in very little numbers hang out on Smogon).
Woah woah woah sir.
I kindly ask you to remove this direct attack on OUR Democracy!
But yeah, sucks how we likely won’t have Pokemon games on par with other RPGs because of there being no insentive to do so. BDSP are the best selling Pokemon remakes, so why bother making a Sevii Islands, adding Battle Frontier, or adding Delta Episodes? Just port DS games with slight modificantions, not even having the full game on cart alone, and ship it off for $60. GameFreak or TPCi doesn’t even really need to keep the people who buy it anyways. They have BlackRock and Vanguard that’ll gladly invest enough money to keep them afloat.
BDSP selling so well, and the lack of information on SV besides the new mechanic, makes me very skeptical of the game’s quality, even though I had been praising the Tera Type mechanic.
Ice-types traditionally being late-game really boils down to the fact that Ice-types are, by nature, designed to best thrive in colder, snowy/icy conditions, and more often than not the icy/cold areas are accessible later in the game in almost every iteration of your standard Pokemon game.
Pokemon doing so really just follows textbook JRPG world design, as icy/snowy areas are almost always a late-game part of your traditional textbook RPG. A typical "RPG" adventure has you starting out in a more hospitable, human-friendly environment and exploring those kinds of environments first, with basic, down-to-earth and mundane enemies, and then less hospitable, harsher climates become areas that you explore later in the game, often these areas have stronger enemies and more "exotic", out-there, supernatural designs and powers.
An example would be that you hypothetically start out in a typical human-civilized village, and then your early areas you explore of the RPG's world are stuff like grasslands, forests, generic dark caves, and lakes and whatnot, and then as you head later into the game you start walking into deserts, treacherous mountains, snowy climates, and volcanic areas or dragon residences or something like that. Pokemon has traditionally largely conformed to this sort of world design, especially in past games where the overall intended progression was linear, and so as a result Ice-types tend to be found later and oftentimes have higher evolution levels as well, because the sort of environment they are designed to live in is something that is often only accessible in the later portions of the game. SV being open world raises the possibility that you can go to the icy areas of Paldea earlier than in past games, but whether you can use actually viable Ice-types in-game remains to be seen.
Pokemon doing so really just follows textbook JRPG world design, as icy/snowy areas are almost always a late-game part of your traditional textbook RPG. A typical "RPG" adventure has you starting out in a more hospitable, human-friendly environment and exploring those kinds of environments first, with basic, down-to-earth and mundane enemies, and then less hospitable, harsher climates become areas that you explore later in the game, often these areas have stronger enemies and more "exotic", out-there, supernatural designs and powers.
An example would be that you hypothetically start out in a typical human-civilized village, and then your early areas you explore of the RPG's world are stuff like grasslands, forests, generic dark caves, and lakes and whatnot, and then as you head later into the game you start walking into deserts, treacherous mountains, snowy climates, and volcanic areas or dragon residences or something like that. Pokemon has traditionally largely conformed to this sort of world design, especially in past games where the overall intended progression was linear, and so as a result Ice-types tend to be found later and oftentimes have higher evolution levels as well, because the sort of environment they are designed to live in is something that is often only accessible in the later portions of the game. SV being open world raises the possibility that you can go to the icy areas of Paldea earlier than in past games, but whether you can use actually viable Ice-types in-game remains to be seen.
I don't really want to get in the middle of this argument as it seems to be going nowhere quick. But this statement is pretty patently false: there are plenty of people who support Dexit in all it's forms. You only need to read the official Dexit thread to find people supporting it - and recently so. Most of the arguments there (both for and sometimes against) are exhausting to read, as that argument is running to a conclusion at the speed of plate tectonics. However, there are definitely many people who do in fact support Dexit.
I’d say most people are Dexit tolerators at best. The only argument that I have seen for Dexit support that isn’t just “I tolerate Dexit because X reason” is that it balances the game to remove some broken Pokemon and “I just don’t like X Pokemon”, and the former could be seen as just tolerating it since Pokemon could just rebalance Pokemon.
Thing is that having all Pokemon in the game is going to be better than not having all the Pokemon in the game if nothing else changes. It can’t really get much worse if you add Pokemon in.
It would be kind of like saying “You know what would make Super Mario World just absolute dog shit? If it had all the Power-Ups from Super Mario Bros. 3 and let you played updated levels from that game.”
Most people are fine without all the SMB3 Power-ups in SMW or all the SMB3 levels because people tolerate it. The game makes ups up for it with Yoshi and Cape, along with other features so there is good reason to tolerate it.
Dexit didn’t do that for SWSH or BDSP, or even when GameFreak removed other features like the Battle Frontier. Pokemon fans just tolerate all these removed features with no compensation and a higher price tag.
Not only are you just tolerating removed Pokemon, but also tolerating removed connectivity (Gen 8 being the only gen where none of the games connect to each other directly) and tolerating extremely exploitive business practices.
dexit is a completely fine concept if they used it for what they said they would. If they decided to update the animations, dexit is indeed the only way to do it in a way that doesnt either kill your animators or makes them bring in the guilloutine. I even think 400 guys is a lot depending on how many animations you want to update + how much of that is guys that also need to be modeled from scratch.
Main issue really is that they didnt do it, really. If dexit was an old tradition like most monster collectors, people would have been fine, its more about how they seem to still be able to bring these guys but opted not to, ig
Main issue really is that they didnt do it, really. If dexit was an old tradition like most monster collectors, people would have been fine, its more about how they seem to still be able to bring these guys but opted not to, ig
I'm sure many others have said this already as I am late to the party but I don't see a scenario in which Terastallization isn't extremely broken. Dynamax iirc was the first thing to go in standard SS play, and Terastallization seems to be permanent whereas Dynamax is only 3 turns, and there is also a higher unpredictability factor, because with Dynamaxing, you had to worry about which mon was gonna Dynamax, but with Terastallization you not only have to worry about which mon will Terastallize but also what its Tera Type will be. Though I think the majority of its viability will come from Terastallizing into your own type, which is weird given how Tera Types that match Pokemon types will be a commonplace in SV whereas only in Tera Dens will you get the super cool alternative Tera Types that probably won't see as much competitive use. We're talking about free Adaptability on every Pokemon without using up an ability, item, or move. I think if it does end up being broken, banning Terastallizing into your own type while allowing terastallizing into other types could be worth looking into, but it'd still probably be broken.
Also shoutouts to Tera Flying Venomicon-Epilogue in particular for being one of the scariest Pokemon concepts I've ever heard.
Also shoutouts to Tera Flying Venomicon-Epilogue in particular for being one of the scariest Pokemon concepts I've ever heard.
indeed
no shifting to a resist either, tinted lens do be like that
terastalize is so getting banned
Honestly I feel the opposite, the more I think about Tera the more it sounds actually kind of balanced and in huge part that's thanks to turning you monotype. "Free adaptability on any mon" may sound scary but you also have to commit to being a monotyped offensive mon while doing that, so you essentially trade losing one STAB for your other STAB being stronger. And while not every offensiev mon can use both of its STABs, not all of them would want to lose a secondary type either. Something like Lando only gets Ground STABs either way but would not really want to lose Flying. Say you tera your Gardevoir into being mono Fairy, suddenly some Poisons can take it on a little better thanks to Psychic no longer being STAB.
In this front I think its pretty interesting thatbeing monotyped tends to turn out better for defensive mons than for offensive ones. Sure there's a lot of really good defensive dual types, but stuff like Grass, Poison, Water, Fairy, Steel, Flying, Normal or Ground all work perfectly fine defensively as monotypes.
Plus while technically "any mon can turn into any type", there will definitely be prefered types for some mons, namely movepool. No reason to turn your Arcanine into a Rock type if it gets no Rock STAB, for instance. I'd assume most cases where one mon turns into atera type that doesn't match its original type, it'd be hugely dependant on what that mon's movepool is and what matchups its trying to break past. So I think that while technically any mon could turn to any type, after the meta settles you'd have an idea of what type each mon is popularly running and just build around that.
Its obviously too early to be sure but this all kinda feels like a more balanced version of Z-Moves to me, and the fact there's actual defensive aplications to this already makes it more balanced at least than Dynamax and Z-Moves imo
In this front I think its pretty interesting thatbeing monotyped tends to turn out better for defensive mons than for offensive ones. Sure there's a lot of really good defensive dual types, but stuff like Grass, Poison, Water, Fairy, Steel, Flying, Normal or Ground all work perfectly fine defensively as monotypes.
Plus while technically "any mon can turn into any type", there will definitely be prefered types for some mons, namely movepool. No reason to turn your Arcanine into a Rock type if it gets no Rock STAB, for instance. I'd assume most cases where one mon turns into atera type that doesn't match its original type, it'd be hugely dependant on what that mon's movepool is and what matchups its trying to break past. So I think that while technically any mon could turn to any type, after the meta settles you'd have an idea of what type each mon is popularly running and just build around that.
Its obviously too early to be sure but this all kinda feels like a more balanced version of Z-Moves to me, and the fact there's actual defensive aplications to this already makes it more balanced at least than Dynamax and Z-Moves imo
This, on top of the fact that everyone usually assumes that you can decide "on the whim" what to Tera into, while in fact it works similarly to Hidden Power where it's predetermined and you can't on match by match basic decide if you want your Gardevoir to be Psychic or Fairy (or something else) Tera.
On top of "adaptability 2.0" moves being basically comparable to Dynamaxed attacks, but without the extra effects, which were the real deal making them unbalanced.
i suppose it all may depend on the abusers in the end. for example venomicon with flying double-stab and tinted lens literally dont give a shit about anything. and other mons can easily take advantage of terastalize to break through its checks (will that pult remain a ghost/dragon? or will it turn into a fire-type and blast through my ferrothorn? maybe electric to burst past pex and fini?).
although, i do now see it more as a balanced version ofn z-moves. i suppose i was initially tilted by venomicon-e who has tinted lens and so frankly don't care about anything anymore if it gets double stab.
Getting back to the previous subject at hand (because I would prefer if this thread didn't devolve into another pity-party-over-the-absence-of-artificial-pixels-on-the-other-side-of-a-video-game-screen thread): I think the thing I'm most curious to find out with Terastallization is how many total different Tera types a certain Pokemon could potentially have (or at least how many it would make sense to have). Salamence for instance has somewhere around 7 different Tera types it could use effectively, whereas something like Regieleki (assuming it's in the game, of course; I'm avoiding lEaKs like the plague so I don't get either lied to or spoiled before I can play it) would have no reason to have any other Tera types besides Electric.
EDIT: Oh, so we are in fact back to talking about Terastallizing now. Would it be too much to ask that we not continue delving into shit that doesn't need to be talked about in this thread?
EDIT: Oh, so we are in fact back to talking about Terastallizing now. Would it be too much to ask that we not continue delving into shit that doesn't need to be talked about in this thread?
It's a good thing that venomicon-e doesn't exist in the real game heh
For what matters, as of now not even leakers know (or if they do, they haven't said) how many types a given poke can Tera into.
We only know that every pokemon in the region can Teralyze in their native type (with no information of how this works for dual types btw) and we were shown a handful of possibilities by the trailers. Other than that, there's no actual information on if it's "every pokemon can eventually get every type" or if it's decided by the almighty hand of the devs which Poke gets which Type
Oh and Charizard gets all 18 so they can make 18 separate plushies of it
Well that can't possibly be right Eterantus was like 95 base spe--what do you mean it was 130
Mainly because "speed" doesn't translate directly to actual speed stat in Pokemon.
See Escavalier being apparently able to reach sonic speed, or Garchomp able to fly at mach something, etc.
Basically just cause they're flying bike, doesn't mean they will actually be fast.
Called it from way back. I'll add that Shift Gear is a legit possibility for both legendaries since the only box art legendaries that both lean heavily towards min-max attacks are the Swsh duo.
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