Not over Hypnosis...over Energy Ball.
Maybe because its bottom of the barrel?
Swords Dance Aerial Ace is really half the reason you'd use a Scyther even in Advance before it got Technician let alone now.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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I have to mention here that through battling alot of deoxys, steelix makes probably the best counter around, not to mention is very helpful in OU
I am seeing much more steelix,azumarill,and hitmon (family) in matches on shoddy, and wifi latley.
Hypno should be BL.
#1 It has both good defense and SDefense, on top of that we have Nasty Plot... It can always heal with WISH and it has Hypnosis.
Hypnosis + Nasty Plot + Wish + Psychic is pretty hard to counter unless you have a Dark Type... There aren't many used dark types other than Absol, Cacturne, & Shiftry in UU. Plus, Psychic can even be replaced with another attack. That thing is overpowered in UU.
#1 It has both good defense and SDefense, on top of that we have Nasty Plot... It can always heal with WISH and it has Hypnosis.
Hypnosis + Nasty Plot + Wish + Psychic is pretty hard to counter unless you have a Dark Type... There aren't many used dark types other than Absol, Cacturne, & Shiftry in UU. Plus, Psychic can even be replaced with another attack. That thing is overpowered in UU.
I guess this point was made in reference to Steelix being considred for a move down ... I'm afraid it doesn't make that much difference.
A pokemons performance in a higher tier is largely irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion, it is how said pokemon would impact upon the UU metagame that is of primary concern.
Ok ...
No it should not. We only move things to BL that overcentralise the UU metagame. Hypno does not.
All in all which leaves it running one attack, which is not great in terms of coverage sweeping potenial.
Honestly its not.
With the Insomnia trait Banette can switch in on Hypnosis and hit Hypno hard with STAB Ghost attacks of a decent attack.
Fellow Insomniac Noctowl can switch in and Whirlwind Hypno away, taking very little damage off pychic due to its own great Special Defence.
Calm Mind Hypno stops it dead. (If Grumpig can get a sub up it can too)
Worst case scenario you sacrifice a pokemon to sleep ... whilst its setting up you then ...
1) Switch in anything with a strong SE (Ghost, Dark, Bug attack) and start hammering away ...
2) Encore it with a faster pokemon ...
3) Phaze it ...
Sharpedo and Skuntank both see moderate useage, Sharpedo certainly sees more use than both Cacturne and Shiftry. Heck even Sableye sees some use ...
Meaning you lose STAB and you still only have one attack, which can potentially be walled by a specific type.
Really ... ?
I want to make a contention, and I am sure this has been addressed before, but I feel that it is important to say! I know that the difference between borderline and underused pokemon is supposed to be based on power, but when a pokemon is nearly overused and not borderline, as is the case with at least Clefable, I think that should be remedied. If it is powerful enough that a lot of people are using it in overused, then it is closer to overused than underused!
I also believe that Moltres should be underused :)
I also believe that Moltres should be underused :)
Where do you draw the line as to what is considered OU though?
I have to admit that I do have certain reservations about using useages statistics given that, at present, there are quite a large number of UU pokemon that are seeing more usage in ladder matches than things like Slaking and Shaymin.
I think I might get shot for this, but second thoughts on Flygon being UU? It's not extremely powerful and lacking Swords Dance (or in a more serious Dragon-like sense, Dragon Dance) in it's movepool. It's resists help but I don't think are extremely game-breaking (Aggron still has Focus Punch, don't forget).
Altaria Stats: 75 / 70 / 90 / 70 / 105 / 80
Flygon Stats: 80 / 100 / 80 / 80 / 80 / 100
Speaking of Altaria, does anyone use Featherdance on it? >_>;
Anyways, Flygon's movepool isn't limited but isn't huge either. Obvious examples compared to other Dragons is no negative effects with Roost, U-Turn, Giga Drain, and Earth Power. He carries STAB Earthquake, but there are still a lot of Flying Pokemon and Levitate users, even for UU. I guess the two biggest fears is Draco Meteor (he does it a little bit better than Altaria) and STAB Earthquake, at least in my opinion.
Any thoughts?
Altaria Stats: 75 / 70 / 90 / 70 / 105 / 80
Flygon Stats: 80 / 100 / 80 / 80 / 80 / 100
Speaking of Altaria, does anyone use Featherdance on it? >_>;
Anyways, Flygon's movepool isn't limited but isn't huge either. Obvious examples compared to other Dragons is no negative effects with Roost, U-Turn, Giga Drain, and Earth Power. He carries STAB Earthquake, but there are still a lot of Flying Pokemon and Levitate users, even for UU. I guess the two biggest fears is Draco Meteor (he does it a little bit better than Altaria) and STAB Earthquake, at least in my opinion.
Any thoughts?
The difference between base 70 and base 80 special attack when it comes to Choice Specs Draco Meteor makes a huge difference. Then his greatly superior speed means you can't scare him out with an Ice Beam most of the time.
I wouldn't be against testing him when you compare him to Altaria (who is a pretty hard UU right now), but I feel like his superior typing will give him a lot of opportunities to switch in and start firing off effectively unresisted Draco Meteors. Only Probopass can really take them and then he has STAB Specs Earth Power.
I wouldn't be against testing him when you compare him to Altaria (who is a pretty hard UU right now), but I feel like his superior typing will give him a lot of opportunities to switch in and start firing off effectively unresisted Draco Meteors. Only Probopass can really take them and then he has STAB Specs Earth Power.
Flygon isn't extremely powerful in the OU sense but this is UU were the pokemon aren't at the level as say Garchomp. One of the biggest problems of countering Flygon is the fact it can run Draco Meteor and EQ(Life Orb); U-turn out afterwards and come in using it's resistances to roost off damage.
If Flygon was UU, who wouldn't use it? The common pokemon who resist Draco Meteor can be taken out with EQ or Fire Blast. He looks like he could be over centralizing if allowed.
I actually have to support you there. I find Flygon certainly isn't near as dangerous currently as it was back in Advance. I'm sure I got alot of flak for this before but I really do feel Flygon isn't as big a threat as most make it out to be. Its hard to explain however why I think this...
I just run a DD Dragon Rush Altaria with a slight twist on the final move. Though I'd like to keep that to myself since its the first time I ever made the stupid thing threatening.
I've found an Altaria set with Dragon Dance/Dragon Rush/Earthquake/Sing@ Wide Lens has really worked out well for me.
Flygon really shouldn't be UU, everything in UU is pretty much 2HKO'd by CB EQ/Dragon Claw, not to mention Draco Meteor issues. Its medocire speed doesn;t seem so bad in UU anymore, and its defenses aren;t bad either.
Flygon really shouldn't be UU, everything in UU is pretty much 2HKO'd by CB EQ/Dragon Claw, not to mention Draco Meteor issues. Its medocire speed doesn;t seem so bad in UU anymore, and its defenses aren;t bad either.
I run a defensive set with Draco Meteor/Toxic/Feather Dance/Roost. Works wonders.
Purely in terms of usage (using the weighted statistics for Jan)...
Flygon was ranked at #77
IMHO the bulk of UU pokemon start coming in around #130, so I don't know, for me its a little high ...
However saying that the whole list from #63-129 is rather mixed, in terms of pokemon that are currently deemed UU & BL, with things that are currently deemed UU (Froslass, Shuckle, Cradily and Clefable) seeing, much more use than things like Rampardos, Honchkrow, Marowak and Regirock ...
Flygon was ranked at #77
IMHO the bulk of UU pokemon start coming in around #130, so I don't know, for me its a little high ...
However saying that the whole list from #63-129 is rather mixed, in terms of pokemon that are currently deemed UU & BL, with things that are currently deemed UU (Froslass, Shuckle, Cradily and Clefable) seeing, much more use than things like Rampardos, Honchkrow, Marowak and Regirock ...
Yeah that's true. Shuckle and Froslass are seeing nearly as much use as beasts like Raikou, Rhyperior and Slowbro (who I've seen a lot of).
I'm thinking that it's because Shuckle and Froslass aren't completely outclassed in what they do, and aren't super-frail either. They're also not exactly hard to use.
But then you have Rampardos who can't take hits unless there's sandstorm, Honchkrow who requires telepathy, Marowak who is ass-slow, and Regirock who has a million billion weaknesses, and really only works well in sandstorm.
Heh, #63-#129 are the UU/BL pokemon that have the most usable niches in OU. I'll admit, there are some after that number that are good in OU, but they're quite challenging to use, heh and a lot of people these days don't like challenges. -.-
About Flygon, I'm really not sure about him. 80/80/80 defenses honestly aren't that bad in UU, and when you take into account that he has 3 great resistances (poison IS used with things like Muk - 0.5x Rock, 0.5x Poison, 0.5x Fire) and 2 immunities (0x Ground, 0x Electric), there's plenty of opprtunities for him to switch in and crush bones with the shooting star of Draco Meteor. Plus, he has Fire Blast for all the Steel types, and Earth Power for Rock/Steels. Really, very little can take the specs set.
Then there's a bulkier set that he can run, such as Dragon Claw or Draco Meteor/Earthquake/Roost/U-Turn, and with those resists and immunities, he's quite hard to take down.
Then there's ScreechGon which can tear through everything quite handily. That can actually be the bulky set, but just Screech over U-Turn and Dragon Claw/Earthquake, which is resisted by few.
I'm thinking that it's because Shuckle and Froslass aren't completely outclassed in what they do, and aren't super-frail either. They're also not exactly hard to use.
But then you have Rampardos who can't take hits unless there's sandstorm, Honchkrow who requires telepathy, Marowak who is ass-slow, and Regirock who has a million billion weaknesses, and really only works well in sandstorm.
Heh, #63-#129 are the UU/BL pokemon that have the most usable niches in OU. I'll admit, there are some after that number that are good in OU, but they're quite challenging to use, heh and a lot of people these days don't like challenges. -.-
About Flygon, I'm really not sure about him. 80/80/80 defenses honestly aren't that bad in UU, and when you take into account that he has 3 great resistances (poison IS used with things like Muk - 0.5x Rock, 0.5x Poison, 0.5x Fire) and 2 immunities (0x Ground, 0x Electric), there's plenty of opprtunities for him to switch in and crush bones with the shooting star of Draco Meteor. Plus, he has Fire Blast for all the Steel types, and Earth Power for Rock/Steels. Really, very little can take the specs set.
Then there's a bulkier set that he can run, such as Dragon Claw or Draco Meteor/Earthquake/Roost/U-Turn, and with those resists and immunities, he's quite hard to take down.
Then there's ScreechGon which can tear through everything quite handily. That can actually be the bulky set, but just Screech over U-Turn and Dragon Claw/Earthquake, which is resisted by few.
80/80/80 doesn't seem bad but in all honesty. If you want to make use of that 100/100 atk/speed than nothing its going into those stats really. Same thing the other way round.
Look on the other side, Flygon is neutral to fighting/grass/water/flying/normal and the obvious 4x ice weakness, two of those are the most destructive attack types in UU. Water because of RD and good choice and fighting because of Hitmon's and co. Flying and Normal aren't exactly slouches in power either. Also Ice is nice to have around anyway.
In all honesty Draco Meteor seems frightening but think about what makes it frightening to begin with besides its lack of resistances on the main users.
-Garchomp, Swords Dance, 103 speed and 130 attack. Its only there for wall breaking.
-Kingdra, all round fast, bulky and strong.
-Salamance, 100 speed, 110 s.atk and multitude of 120 base pwr coverage attacks.
Back onto the power issue, Specs Flygon isn't near as all crippling coming off 80 base even with STAB. CBFlygon is the real threat but then theres the question of how far will with a 100 base at best.
Of course its sorta both ways, I don't think its the devastation most deem it to be...its not specialized in any real area. But neither is it weak...
But if as CaptKirby suggested we start looking at the more borderline UU pokemon, shouldn't we be contemplating saying goodbye to Shuckle, Cradily, Clefable and Hitmontop and reconsidering the likes of Articuno, Slowking and Zangoose?
I guess the point I'm really trying to make is how important IS a pokemon's usage going to be in determining its tier status?
Ok ... perhaps you could offer us something a bit more constructive such as particular changes you dislike/disagree with?
Popping in to say a huge no for Flygon from me. He was OU last gen, and actually improved in the transition. Sure, he cannot use any boosting moves, but he can use boosting items. A CB Flygon with 448 Atk and 328 speed is going to have no problem switching in on those reasonable defences and great resistances. Then you're looking at the unresisted combination of Earthquake and Dragon Claw ripping shreds out of everything. Even the Specs set is pretty dangerous, dealing up to 60% to a max/max Grumpig, but also adding the element of unpredictability, just like Salamence.
Not worth discussing at this point, I'm afraid.
Not worth discussing at this point, I'm afraid.
Flygon has always suffered in comparison to the "traditional" dragons. He and Kingdra's strengths are the same as their weaknesses - high base stat total, no overwhelmingly high individual stats.
However, he's BL at the very least. Plenty of resistances, Roost without losing Ground immunity, base 100 attack and speed (which isn't as good as Garchomp, but then, what is?) and a variety of options available to him mean you should never underestimate Flygon. His only real weakness is the fact that he excels at nothing. He probably wouldn't tear through UU like, say, Weavile would, but he holds his own and then some in BL.
However, he's BL at the very least. Plenty of resistances, Roost without losing Ground immunity, base 100 attack and speed (which isn't as good as Garchomp, but then, what is?) and a variety of options available to him mean you should never underestimate Flygon. His only real weakness is the fact that he excels at nothing. He probably wouldn't tear through UU like, say, Weavile would, but he holds his own and then some in BL.
Besides the point that you're still acting like a crybaby for stuff that's went to OU because people actually use them (to which I'll answer: of course!), this is a BL/UU thread, not a general thread about tiers. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't post.
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