then that's fair, sorry if I was a bit aggro
It’s on the table, but nothing is formalized yet
Thanks for the clarification. A suspect test in December would be nice. I am not sure how popular a clause/complex ban would be, so we will see where public opinion lies by the time suspect test arrives.
Yeah, my verbiage was poor, on me, I was more eluding to why we were aiming to try to take action so swiftly, rather than pause a discussion board, my bad.
Right now everything is delicate and on the table. It’s important you guys know we are in this with you and not going to risk any ban or restriction without proper measures and confidence. I want the tier to be fun and competitive like you all, but making it competitive is the first priority of course!
i feel like this sounds funny and maybe even true at first glance but reminder that this is a +1 attack from a mon with DD, not some swords dance sweeper you can simply outspeed, with more normal checks and balances lol
A lot of the strength of Annihilape comes from the fact it can Terastalize to beat its checks. Whether it be Water, Steel, or even Poison, it can easily beat whatever it needs to with that Tera slot. If you ban Tera, Annihilape becomes manageable by several strong special attackers, like Dragapult, Iron Valiant, and Gholdengo if they can come in on a slow turn or after a sack. Personal verdict: Off the radar with Tera gone
Perhaps the most obvious abuser of offensive Tera. The most prominent example is Tera Flying Booster Energy Acrobatics, which absolutely rips apart most teams with the support of Crunch and Earthquake, along with other options like Outrage or Taunt to stop status or just blow the fuck up out of everything. If you ban Tera, the most broken set goes, but it is very possible that Roaring Moon could be very strong without Tera anyways. However, due to teams not having to worry about Acrobatics as much, they can focus more efforts into checking those other options. Personal verdict: Might be off the radar with Tera gone
This thing CAN abuse Tera very effectively...but its still good without it. Really, really good. Honestly, I'm unsure of this thing to be on the radar even with Tera, but it is and I have to include it because of that. I think it makes sense to say that it's still gonna be radar worthy after a Tera ban if it's on the radar without one. Personal verdict: Might be on the radar with Tera gone
Not a Tera abuser in the slightest. Personal verdict: On the radar with Tera gone
Not a Tera abuser in the slightest. Personal verdict: On the radar with Tera gone
Clicks Overheat and wins. Specs and Scarf just dish out absolutely absurd damage calcs with Tera Fire. Its Specs Overheat without Tera does about 90% to specially defensive Clodsire, and it just outright OHKOs with it. I'm not confident in saying that this would be broken without Tera. Without that free Adaptability on top of Beads of Ruin, it becomes a lot easier to handle defensively, letting balance have a way better time.
It just doesn't fucking die. IDef BPress is a concept I always wanted to see explored in gen 8, and now I realize just how horrifying it is in gen 9. Garganacl with Tera Fairy can wall pretty much everything, and Salt Cure wears down its checks horribly fast, while not being worn down itself thanks to Purifying Salt blocking Toxic. Without Tera Fairy, it would have to suffer through that debilitating Rock typing. I think it's safe to say that Garganacl wouldn't even be mentioned in this post without Tera Fairy.
An underrated Tera abuser from what I've seen, this can rip whole teams open by just having the right coverage move. That coverage becomes significantly more scary when it gets STAB and the ability to take one hit. It isn't BULKY, but it can live Dragonite's Tera Normal Extreme Speed, so having those resists can really be a lifesaver. I've mainly been using Tera Electric, but Tera Ghost is also horrifying for cleanly OHKOing Gholdengo with Shadow Ball. Without Tera, it'd still be great, but it would not have those "Delete the opposing thing that should probably be checking me right now" buttons available as easily. It'd have to invest a turn in using Calm Mind or lock itself into one move with Specs.
It clicks the Extreme Speed button, and fucking everything dies. I've been running Choice Band personally, which has dizzyingly high damage for a priority move once you go Tera Normal. However, Dragon Dance is the most common set, usually in conjunction with Shed Tail Cyclizar. Dragonite is a weird one to evaluate, because it's using two broken elements(Tera and Shed Tail). However, it is an extremely good abuser of Tera, so I think it's worth including here. Without Tera, it would not have those extremely speedy STAB Extreme Speeds, making it easier to handle for most physical walls.okay no seriously y'all in these posts stop bringing up roaring moonTera is EXTREMELY problematic for the metagame in my opinion. I won't bother writing a lengthy post about why this is, you've probably seen a million already, I'm not scrolling through this whole thread. What I will do is go through each mon on the radar and see if they're worth being on there without Tera. I want to emphasize, everything here is just what I think would happen. Feel free to argue for or against anything here.
I'll also go over some mons that I believe to be particularly problematic Tera abusers, although these aren't on the radar.
I think the core reason why the conversation has shifted away from discussing the possible impacts of the proposed restrictions to the implications of ban or no ban is that the metagame(s) with or without the proposed restrictions is entirely novel and hypothetical. Due to their novel nature, a lot of the covered debate on restrictions concerns their legitimacy and whether they retain the intended impacts of the gimmick. On the other hand we have experienced metagames without tera and have some experience of a metagame including tera (although I will say that the metagame has been incredibly unstable during that time) so it is easier to propose stronger more substantiated arguments for or against tera ban . To effectively restart/expand the discussion on restrictions; I think a suspect ladder including the most popular restriction(s) is required so the proposed implications/hyptheticals of the restriction(s) can be explored.
Cope is when people bring up the fact that a relatively frail setup sweeper becomes problematic when it gets a free turn to set up by invalidating its checks. /s
I think terra is way stronger in defense than in offense and way more pokemon abuse of it that way. I don’t think what i said was the ultimate solution if someone can add something without breaking too much the mechanic I would be interested in it. As long as it’s not a ban (because that would make the meta really boring, i don’t want 8 g OU again), I’m fine with most solutions. (But i agree offensive pokemon are way stronger with terra but I mean, offense can be countered whereas defense just counter you with something that’s completely unpredictable from my pov at least and reactions from other players)
i know you’re not talking to me directly, but i wanted to make a case for the one pokemon per team preview rule that i mentioned earlier
The issue that I foresee with this is that it will severely limit one of the cooler applications of the mechanic: reactive use. If you have to choose during team preview, I'd imagine that you'd oftentimes be choosing your best offensive mon as your candidate. I don't think this helps solve one of the largest complaints of the mechanic, which is Pokemon that gain a significant advantage offensively from doing so. Dragonite, and the offensive Ruin legends are two examples that would still perform exactly the same as before, but your opponent would now be limited in their ability to react to them with their own tera if they choose to do so.
I don't think I agree that having more versatility in mons is necessarily a bad thing, and I'm honestly not sure if we will have such versatility of mind boggling proportions. As we're seeing as the days go by, we are getting more and more defined users of the mechanic, and each user has their most commonly used tera, and maybe one or two niche uses (which come at the expense of being optimal). This wouldn't change when home comes out. Sure, we'll get more mons that are good with the mechanic, there's no doubt about it, but over time we'll start to understand what different Pokemon tend to run. You might get caught by a bait set here and there, but what's the difference between that and a Chople Berry Tyranitar? Both use a resource (tera for one, item slot for other) to gain a temporary advantage, but lose out on being the best possible Pokemon that they can be due to being more situational.
thanks for the response! i think reactive terastalizing is a cool application of the mechanic as well but i also think it’s too volatile in conjunction with how many different variables there are. i also don’t think that this solution removes or necessarily favors defensive tera as well; i don’t play defensive teams often but i’d imagine you’d pick out a few guys that you’d be willing to defensively tera, and then choose at preview which one based on what threats are being presented. if you’re talking about defensively tera as a reaction then i’d argue that it’s no different than being able to hit the go button or teching for a specific threat.
I must be missing something, because this argument sounds perfectly reasonable. They’re frail for a reason, right?
Might just be misinterpreting this but I wasn't actually saying bringing up Roaring Moon in that context was coping, I was pointing out that it's silly to say bringing up Roaring Moon in response to tera was coping by citing the fact that it's pretty balanced (if still very strong) when its typing can't be changed up on the fly to one of the many good options it has. Sorry if my sarcasm didn't read great, going to edit it to add a /s just in case lol
How do
This limitation already exists. You can Terastalize only one Pokémon per team
What this is saying is that you have to select WHO you will Teraistalize at game start and your opponent knows which it is. Not the same.
That would be flat-out stupid.
Proving once again that you’re never allowed to change your pfp lmao
I appreciate your transparency during this process. Thank you for that.
what's weird to me about these arguments is that it makes it seem like only side can tera? If both players can "tera to avoid a bad outcome", then how is it unbalanced? It's just like with Dmax, you often have to Dmax reactively to counter your opponent's Dmax, which ends up leveling the playing field. This isn't to attack your argument specifically, but it's more of a reaction to what I've been reading in this thread. Imo, if both sides have access to the broken mechanic, that means it's basically a level playing field, and it comes down to who utilizes it better.
