Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion [ UPDATE POST #1293]

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obviously tera is very polarizing right now and it has been pretty difficult to reckon with it all as tier leader, so i went into my thoughts in longer-form
Even if I don't agree with all your takes on the subject, it's awesome to hear from your perspective considering well, at the end of the day you and your council have a lot of the call.

It's starting to seem at least personally like this may be the largest split opinion on a competitive Pokemon subjective I've seen, how this ends will be interesting to see
 
Even if I don't agree with all your takes on the subject, it's awesome to hear from your perspective considering well, at the end of the day you and your council have a lot of the call.

It's starting to seem at least personally like this may be the largest split opinion on a competitive Pokemon subjective I've seen, how this ends will be interesting to see
I agree, and that's why I think ranked-choice voting with 3+ options (likely full ban, no action, type preview, and one or two others) is the way to go. It seems likely we can't get the majority to favor one option, but it'd be good to come to a result most are at least okay with.
 
Maybe we can try a separate ladder, but maybe banning it is the way to go because while I do think tera is kinda broken and should probably go, it feels more managable than dmax, while being more unpredictable than the gimmicks that require items to work. So yeah I am thinking we should ban/suspect it, and try an experimental alternate meta with terastal and see if people would play on a SV ladder with terastal where it would not be banned.
 

obviously tera is very polarizing right now and it has been pretty difficult to reckon with it all as tier leader, so i went into my thoughts in longer-form
I'm gonna use my 1300 rating to appoint myself the representative of bad players, because it doesn't really make sense for Smogon to make rulesets that only appeal to the most hardcore players. Bad/casual players liking the mechanic, either because it makes them feel like they have more of a chance to pull off upsets, they enjoy the epic, high-leverage turns, or because they enjoy all the crazy trap sets people can run, or because they want competitive pokemon to more closely resemble singleplayer, or whatever, is a point in its favour! It's really important to remember that most people in this community aren't showing up on the top 500, aren't playing in the SCL, and to be quite honest usually don't end up having a vote in suspects. And while it's definitely fair to restrict voting like that, to make sure voters have an informed opinion, Pokemon Showdown cannot be successful without appealing to casual players. I think if Tera is as fun for casuals as it is uncompetitive (which seems roughly right given the sheer lack of consesnsus) , it should be kept in the main tier for 2 reasons.
1. Bringing casual fans in occurs predominantly in the current-gen meta, especially OU. Given that this is one of the most important things for the health and growth of the community, IMO the current-gen OU tier should always favour fun over being competitive when these things are opposed and fairly equal.
2. Hardcore players who have been playing for multiple gens have the option of playing older gens if current-gen mechanics are unsatisfactory. The whole point of having so many official tiers is so that everyone can find one that appeals to them, and IMO hardcore players will stick around in the community playing other gens if the current-gen meta is too uncompetitive.

Finally, IMO Monotype is a very different situation as far as Tera is concerned, because your options for dealing with types are obviously much more restricted in that meta, so it shouldn't be used as a precedent.
 
Maybe we can try a separate ladder, but maybe banning it is the way to go because while I do think tera is kinda broken and should probably go, it feels more managable than dmax, while being more unpredictable than the gimmicks that require items to work. So yeah I am thinking we should ban/suspect it, and try an experimental alternate meta with terastal and see if people would play on a SV ladder with terastal where it would not be banned.
I dont hate the separate ladder idea, but IMO if a separate ladder is used the main SV OU should be the Tera ladder and the separate ladder should be non-Tera OU.
 

Srn

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As discussed many times, this creates a revolving door effect which makes tiering tougher. You can't arbitrarily say that one pokemon is a better tera type user than the other simply because it is good at it, then ban it from using it. Because what happens is something takes its place, players complain, and then you start the process over again with a new pokemon.

The reason this worked for Mega's is due to the limiting nature of the mechanic. If the base form wasn't broken, but the Mega was, then ban the mega. This does not work with Tera because the mechanic does not actually boost any stats. A tera Dark scarf roaring moon is no faster than tera fairy scarf roaring moon or a scarfed non tera roaring moon, unless of course the ev/iv's are different.

Terastilization as a mechanic affects every pokemon in the exact same way, no questions asked. Nothing gets a dramatic boost and every mon has access to the same tera types. Therefore, the blame can only be placed on the Pokemon for being good. I hate when people keep using Roaring Moon as an example because the fact is it's a base 590 stat pokemon that is amazing. With or without Tera, its a good pokemon.
I actually want to respond to this point because I disagree with this and haven't seen this challenged enough. Terastallization is NOT a mechanic that affects every pokemon in the same way. You are technically correct that every mon has access to the same types, but some mons benefit from tera much much more than others. And you try to distance megas from tera by saying "tera doesn't boost stats, thus it's impossible for the base form to be not broken but for base form+tera to be broken," but this simply isn't true imo. Don't believe me? Then just wait until pokemon home drops and if tera is still in the tier, we'll be fighting demons like these:

Regieleki @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Transistor
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Electro Ball
- Volt Switch
- Tera Blast
- Rapid Spin

This is a crystal clear example of a pokemon that is totally balanced and fine without tera and but bonkers when you give it tera. It's going to keep the transistor ability+stab so volt switch remains punishingly strong, it has tera blast ice to heavily pressure 95% of electric immunities (and tera grass is viable too if you think gastro/seismitoad are safe), and it's a spinner that gholdengo cannot really beat long term. It becomes an insanely strong offensive pivot, something mega beedrill could only dream to be. This presents something of a tiering nightmare: clearly the single element pushing regieleki over the edge here is tera, but are you going to ban regieleki from using tera?

In the past, you could cleanly ban soul dew because lati@s was broken with it and not broken without it. But can you also separate broken tera from regieleki? Or will you ban regieleki altogether, even though it's a C+ mon without tera? What if tera steel regidrago ends up being a menace too? We banned shadow tag, and not gothitelle, because shadow tag was the only factor making gothitelle broken, and several other pokemon could do similarly broken things only because of shadow tag. Wouldn't the same thing be true in the case of tera here? Tera would be the only thing making mons like regieleki/regidrago broken, but I have a feeling many players here wouldn't like following through on similar logic and banning regieleki/regidrago from using tera.

Obviously there's more examples that could develop in the future, and we may find out that certain pokemon that aren't great without tera are suddenly amazing thanks to a creative type change. I just wanted to push back on the idea that tera is a mechanic incapable of making a pokemon broken on its own, because I think it certainly is. (Also gonna respond to advaita's magnum opus when I have time)

EDIT: Finch says he won't ban tera on specific pokemon, so instead entertain the possibility of banning regieleki/regidrago/anything else broken only due to tera vs. banning tera
 
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1. Bringing casual fans in occurs predominantly in the current-gen meta, especially OU. Given that this is one of the most important things for the health and growth of the community, IMO the current-gen OU tier should always favour fun over being competitive when these things are opposed and fairly equal.
2. Hardcore players who have been playing for multiple gens have the option of playing older gens if current-gen mechanics are unsatisfactory. The whole point of having so many official tiers is so that everyone can find one that appeals to them, and IMO hardcore players will stick around in the community playing other gens if the current-gen meta is too uncompetitive.
No offense but this is really poor logic for keeping tera as it doesn't address whether it is balanced or healthy for the game.
 

obviously tera is very polarizing right now and it has been pretty difficult to reckon with it all as tier leader, so i went into my thoughts in longer-form
Once again, I thank you for your transparency. It sounds like you are at least leaning towards a compromise solution.

"Does anybody know?

Yes, actually. I think I might more or less know. A compromise solution is going to take a combination approach because there are so many different aspects to Tera. But we can probably break it down to 2 main ones:

Double STAB and the unpredictability that comes from the extreme amount of factors you have to account for.

The Tera team preview option takes care of the unpredictability well enough without being too restricting on it. It obviously doesn't solve everything, but I think it solves enough where it's a good compromise. As it currently stands, I don't think that you can work around Tera as a teambuilder or plan your game from the start because there are simply too many possibilities to account for. And you get punished too hard and too fast for getting it wrong. But it would be a lot more reasonable if you knew beforehand what Tera type they would turn into, if at all, instead of trying to guess from 2-3+ for each pokemon.

For double STAB, I think this is going to have to be nerfed somehow. The most cartridge friendly way would be to prevent it from being used with an item or at least combining the double STAB damage multiplier with item damage multipliers. There is just too much brute force here otherwise. So have a clause where items can't be combined with Double STAB or find whatever is the best way to achieve that.

So the most practical compromise solution is:

Tera team preview + a double STAB item clause.
 
I just want to respond to the people who responded to my question because I think it's important to the discussion to pin down what to do about double STAB. Not just the original double STAB only solution that was suggested, but the actual part of Tera that I personally feel is one of the most unbalanced things about it.

Therefore, when it comes to neo-Adaptability STAB Tera, you only need to worry about it when it is combined with boosting items and/or extra resistances/neutralities.
I would add stat boosting moves to this, but I basically came to a similar conclusion. The problem is the game isn't designed to combined the damage bonuses of double STAB with damage multipliers from both items and abilities. Eliminating the combination of boosting items + double STAB is would probably make double STAB much more tolerable.

I think if the mechanic existed as you could only tera into your STAB, it would honestly would be unbalanced. Double STAB as a standalone mechanic only serves too boost mons that are already offensive. Z Moves make a good comparison. If you wanted the pure damage value of z moves, you would never slap them on a tank, you would want too on something that is fast or hits hard. While the option to double STAB is strong for already offensive mons, the idea that defensive mons can wall them out with their own new type helps keep them in line. Furthermore, because being able to turn into any type is on the table, mons that have OU niches but are better in lower tiers can actually capitalize on the double STAB for the much needed boost in power, even if it isn't that much.
I also came to this conclusion that Double STAB only would do more harm than good. It seems to me that most people on here seem to feel that way, whether or not they go as far as I do in thinking that aspect needs to be nerfed somehow. You mentioned that you think defensive Tera can hold same type Tera in check, right? I wouldn't personally go that far. But I would agree that it would be better than limiting the defensive Tera more than the offensive Tera, which is what that policy would do.
 

Finchinator

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Pokemon Showdown cannot be successful without appealing to casual players.
I never said it could and I have openly advocated for a survey which would allow for casual players to have some say, which would happen before any suspect that may not include them as regularly. We also based a lot of the early decisions off of posts in the metagame discussion that I even hyperlinked in the radar thread, empowering the voice of ordinary posters. I have spent pages and pages, taking up hours of my time engaging with you guys here, too. We have not seen this from past leaders or councils, but we are trying here and I do not know what more can possibly be expected.

With this said, I do not work for Pokemon Showdown -- I am a Smogon OU tier leader. Hell, I do not "work" for anyone. I am just a volunteer giving my opinions on a topic that is highly debated. As a volunteer tier leader, it is my job to enforce our tiering policy and make my metagame playable for my playerbase, not micro-manage the success of a website that generates far more waves than just my tier and its revenue.
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
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the current-gen OU tier should always favour fun over being competitive when these things are opposed and fairly equal.
This argument is very flawed, by the way. You cannot quantify what is "fun" -- it is in the eye of the beholder. Competitive, balanced, and so on are defined terms that have constant meetings, but fun varies from one player to another pretty substantially.

I personally do not have fun having games come down to guesswork, but I have fun using other aspects of Tera that are less restrictive to consistent gameplay. Am I not entitled to that opinion because it does not align with your version of "fun"? Do I now have to base the tiering system around something that is not consistent?

We base a lot of our decisions around surveys and public input, so obviously the favor of the players factor in plenty -- I am not sure what more you can expect for us to account than that.
 
The biggest problem with this argument is two big reasons.
1) You are not privy too your opponents Moveset, item list, ev/iv spread, or abilities. You can make educated guesses based on past experience and if you are experienced with a match up you can often predict what is coming because it is considered a "common set". As of right now, we have no such "common sets" or even proper tiers for pokemon yet. So claiming " I have no info so I can't counter it" shouldn't even be an argument when what is "meta" hasn't even been properly defined. There are many sets running around of common pokemon with a variety of ev spreads and item choices, even without the use of Terastilization.

2) Even if you don't have an idea of what someones tera type is, the fact that they haven't revealed it yet should be equally as telling. If you can identify something as a major potential threat, then you should respect it, regardless of what tera type it is. The fact that you can see what the opponents mons are in the preview already speaks volumes. Because just like your sizing up their team, they are equally trying to figure out which of their pokemon can deal with your priority attackers and potential sweepers. Did you ever stop to consider what happens if they terastilize into a scarfer that they don't know is scarfed? They can just as easily burn their tera without gaining any momentum.
1) educated guesses on past experience arent enough... you still have no idea what it can be. A mon may run like 3-4 tera types and it is impossible to guess... i wish anyone luck in doing this... its like guessing "which set is genesect running in gen 5 ou" or "is zygarde CB, coil glare, DD z, sub dd" etc not gonna work.

2) Ok and what if they send in for ex. roaring moon as a common example.... they are not gonna tera if they dont need to or if it wont get value of it.... and you dont know what their definition of "value" means... . They arent gonna tera if they may just die doing it.... like it will either save their ass 100% or the tera is just a waste. Any good player is not gonna burn tera like that. I havent seen a tera go to waste in a while esp at 1700
 
For double STAB, I think this is going to have to be nerfed somehow. The most cartridge friendly way would be to prevent it from being used with an item or at least combining the double STAB damage multiplier with item damage multipliers. There is just too much brute force here otherwise. So have a clause where items can't be combined with Double STAB or find whatever is the best way to achieve that.

So the most practical compromise solution is:

Tera team preview + a double STAB item clause.
I believe there are better ways to fix double STAB rather than an item clause. In my opinion, an item clause for mons using double STAB Tera can just feel...weird? Like, imagine you're a new player. You pick up SV OU for the first time, and you try to use your cool new Tera Ghost LO Ceruledge, but you can't because it can't hold an item. That would feel very strange, right? If we want to limit Tera double STAB, then I think we need a more simple and intuitive solution. The obvious one, to me, is just banning double STAB outright. I am not a fan of this because I think Tera should be banned and not certain aspects of it, but this would be the simplest way for JohnPikachu89 to understand restrictions on double STAB imo.
 
I believe there are better ways to fix double STAB rather than an item clause. In my opinion, an item clause for mons using double STAB Tera can just feel...weird? Like, imagine you're a new player. You pick up SV OU for the first time, and you try to use your cool new Tera Ghost LO Ceruledge, but you can't because it can't hold an item. That would feel very strange, right? If we want to limit Tera double STAB, then I think we need a more simple and intuitive solution. The obvious one, to me, is just banning double STAB outright. I am not a fan of this because I think Tera should be banned and not certain aspects of it, but this would be the simplest way for JohnPikachu89 to understand restrictions on double STAB imo.
So you would prefer to just ban that double STAB aspect? I'm not actually against this. If you take away the double bonus multiplier, there is very little incentive to Tera into the same type anyway. Maybe a bit for defensive purposes with dual type pokemon, but that's very limited. Most would get more mileage with defensive Tera type they didn't already have.

Thank you for the feedback on this.
 
I'm looking at the predicament Terestalling has made, and do feel for the tier leaders for having to figure out how to deal with it. Very split, and I'd imagine that it will take a long time until a full agreement would ever be made.

Having said that, my opinion is Tera is busted mainly because it stacks with hold items. If Gamefreak made a hold item requirement for this mechanic - Just like with Mega and Z-crystals - We really wouldn't have this much discussion in the first place.

In fact, who remembers tiering in Gen 6? You know, Mega Rayquaza? That mega was so busted compared to the Primals, and to a point that it needed its own tier beyond ubers. And it was primarily because you didn't need a hold item to evolve it, so its power stacked with a hold item as well.

Now, imagine this: ALL Megas, stacked with held items. Z-crystals stacked with held items. Think of all the bans that would ensue in a gen. 7 meta with those restictions removed. I'd be unbearably scared of who would be the user of a Z-move particularly, as every mon gets the right to have that one chance of cheesing through their supposed counter, all while also holding an additional boosting item. The taking up of the hold item keeps those mechanics truly balanced compared to terestals.

What would Terestals be with a held item restriction? No doubt, very much like how Megas work, and probably as a good thing: Every character gets a form change with a new typing along with its STAB bonus, or a an Adaptability Boost to one of their existing types. But the cost of a hold item restriction keeps them from abusing their powers too much. And because terestalling is a one time use, a player would have to teambuild carefully with only 1-2 users holding such an item - Making it easier to predict who will use it.

But alas, fixing Teras like that would be quite the gentlemen's agreement - And I don't think there is a hold item with Z-crystal-like properties of preventing knock offs/tricking in this game. So unfortunately it probably won't be a doable solution, and I predict any other solution won't really 'fix' the real busted part of the mechanic other than a full ban... Truly sad.
 

alephgalactus

Banned deucer.
But alas, fixing Teras like that would be quite the gentlemen's agreement - And I don't think there is a hold item with Z-crystal-like properties of preventing knock offs/tricking in this game. So unfortunately it probably won't be a doable solution, and I predict any other solution won't really 'fix' the real busted part of the mechanic other than a full ban... Truly sad.
Yeah, it is sad. It’s a near-perfect way of solving the problem, but it creates a fundamental disconnect between cartridge gameplay and simulator gameplay. (Although so does the Cancel Mod…)
 
I want to revisit something that people have stopped talking about: Terra Blast.

A number of earlier messages are dismissing banning Terra Blast as a solution to the broken parts of Terra, and I do agree. The most powerful Terra users, such as Dragonite, Annihilape, and STAB Terra users don't even run it.

But.

Terra Blast enables a LOT of the uncompetitive side of Terrastal, primarily for offense. It is a move that is good on every potential offensive Terra mon that doesn't suffer from 4MSS, as it allows it to completely destroy potential counterplay. Consider something like Chi-Yu - an extremely potent special breaker that kind of runs the tier right now. What beats Chi Yu? Tyranitar! SpDef TTar walls Chi Yu quite well, a rare accomplishment. Tyranitar can then be used in the teambuilder as something to help against Chi Yu. Except - if Chi Yu Terrastalizes into Fighting and uses Terra Blast. Suddenly it kills Tyranitar in one hit, and the pokemon specifically made in the Teambuilder to counter a threat no longer counters that threat, and in fact now loses incredibly hard to it. Tera Grass Chi Yu is able to use TB similarly, with completely different checks and counterplay. A very similar story can be seen with something like Espratha versus Kingambit, who by all means should be able to stop the bird in its tracks, but can't because the risk of Terra Blast Fighting is immense until the opponent uses their Terrastalization. When Palafin was still around, it was suboptimal to use TB, but I distinctly remember people using TB Grass to shit on defensive Waters. Iron Bundle with Terra Blast Fire beat actually everything. Dragapult with STAB Terra Blast has a great physical Ghost move and makes it dangerously good. The list goes on - any good offensive Pokemon can bring Terra Blast in an unpredictable way and beat a given counter/check. The argument that it will become predictable doesn't even really hold up too much, because if one check is found to a certain mon+Terra type, Terra Blast can be easily customized into beating said check in a way that wouldn't be possible without universal powerful STAB. This is an endless team-building arms race that will become very old very quick. It's very different from something like Hidden Power, which was substantially weaker both in base power and in practice.

I urge everyone to rethink their opinions on Terra Blast. I get why it seems fine - again, the most dramatic Terrastal threats rarely use it, and if you bring it and don't Terrastalize, it's an extremely dead slot. But I do genuinely think it's part of the Terra problem, and the pinnacle of the unpredictability that is the best argument for banning Terrastalize. Banning Terra Blast should not be the ONLY step taken, but if a non-ban approach is taken (which I hope) or tried, banning Terra Blast should definitely be something that is considered in conjunction with it. 80 base power unpredictable coverage available to all Pokemon, with STAB, and guaranteed to be useful with your higher attack stat, encapsulates the uncompetitive, unpredictable elements of Terrastalization.

TLDR: Regardless of whether or not Terrastalization is deemed competitive or not, Terra Blast as a random 80BP STAB coverage option under the simple circumstance of "Terrastalize the right thing at the right time" has very little predictability or counterplay, and banning Terra Blast should be taken as a genuine option, especially if it's alongside a bigger change.

Edit: This is different from a problem with Terrastalization as a whole. Using an example from above, Chi Yu has no fighting, grass, or water moves. It would not be able to every the pressure it does with Tera Blast without it, even if it did decide to become Fighting or Grass type.
 
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I want to revisit something that people have stopped talking about: Terra Blast.

A number of earlier messages are dismissing banning Terra Blast as a solution to the broken parts of Terra, and I do agree. The most powerful Terra users, such as Dragonite, Annihilape, and STAB Terra users don't even run it.

But.

Terra Blast enables a LOT of the uncompetitive side of Terrastal, primarily for offense. It is a move that is good on every potential offensive Terra mon that doesn't suffer from 4MSS, as it allows it to completely destroy potential counterplay. Consider something like Chi-Yu - an extremely potent special breaker that kind of runs the tier right now. What beats Chi Yu? Tyranitar! SpDef TTar walls Chi Yu quite well, a rare accomplishment. Tyranitar can then be used in the teambuilder as something to help against Chi Yu. Except - if Chi Yu Terrastalizes into Fighting and uses Terra Blast. Suddenly it kills Tyranitar in one hit, and the pokemon specifically made in the Teambuilder to counter a threat no longer counters that threat, and in fact now loses incredibly hard to it. Tera Grass Chi Yu is able to use TB similarly, with completely different checks and counterplay. A very similar story can be seen with something like Espratha versus Kingambit, who by all means should be able to stop the bird in its tracks, but can't because the risk of Terra Blast Fighting is immense until the opponent uses their Terrastalization. When Palafin was still around, it was suboptimal to use TB, but I distinctly remember people using TB Grass to shit on defensive Waters. Iron Bundle with Terra Blast Fire beat actually everything. Dragapult with STAB Terra Blast has a great physical Ghost move and makes it dangerously good. The list goes on - any good offensive Pokemon can bring Terra Blast in an unpredictable way and beat a given counter/check. The argument that it will become predictable doesn't even really hold up too much, because if one check is found to a certain mon+Terra type, Terra Blast can be easily customized into beating said check in a way that wouldn't be possible without universal powerful STAB. This is an endless team-building arms race that will become very old very quick. It's very different from something like Hidden Power, which was substantially weaker both in base power and in practice.

I urge everyone to rethink their opinions on Terra Blast. I get why it seems fine - again, the most dramatic Terrastal threats rarely use it, and if you bring it and don't Terrastalize, it's an extremely dead slot. But I do genuinely think it's part of the Terra problem, and the pinnacle of the unpredictability that is the best argument for banning Terrastalize. Banning Terra Blast should not be the ONLY step taken, but if a non-ban approach is taken (which I hope) or tried, banning Terra Blast should definitely be something that is considered in conjunction with it. 80 base power unpredictable coverage available to all Pokemon, with STAB, and guaranteed to be useful with your higher attack stat, encapsulates the uncompetitive, unpredictable elements of Terrastalization.

TLDR: Regardless of whether or not Terrastalization is deemed competitive or not, Terra Blast as a random 80BP STAB coverage option under the simple circumstance of "Terrastalize the right thing at the right time" has very little predictability or counterplay, and banning Terra Blast should be taken as a genuine option, especially if it's alongside a bigger change.

Edit: This is different from a problem with Terrastalization as a whole. Using an example from above, Chi Yu has no fighting, grass, or water moves. It would not be able to every the pressure it does with Tera Blast without it, even if it did decide to become Fighting or Grass type.
I agree, even the Regieleki example brought up earlier is solved by banning Tera Blast.

As I said , and as another poster said pages ago , it's definitely not something to let slip under the radar entirely. Even if right now there are bigger fish to fry.
 

BlackKnight_Gawain

PUPL Champion
I want to revisit something that people have stopped talking about: Terra Blast.

A number of earlier messages are dismissing banning Terra Blast as a solution to the broken parts of Terra, and I do agree. The most powerful Terra users, such as Dragonite, Annihilape, and STAB Terra users don't even run it.

But.

Terra Blast enables a LOT of the uncompetitive side of Terrastal, primarily for offense. It is a move that is good on every potential offensive Terra mon that doesn't suffer from 4MSS, as it allows it to completely destroy potential counterplay. Consider something like Chi-Yu - an extremely potent special breaker that kind of runs the tier right now. What beats Chi Yu? Tyranitar! SpDef TTar walls Chi Yu quite well, a rare accomplishment. Tyranitar can then be used in the teambuilder as something to help against Chi Yu. Except - if Chi Yu Terrastalizes into Fighting and uses Terra Blast. Suddenly it kills Tyranitar in one hit, and the pokemon specifically made in the Teambuilder to counter a threat no longer counters that threat, and in fact now loses incredibly hard to it. Tera Grass Chi Yu is able to use TB similarly, with completely different checks and counterplay. A very similar story can be seen with something like Espratha versus Kingambit, who by all means should be able to stop the bird in its tracks, but can't because the risk of Terra Blast Fighting is immense until the opponent uses their Terrastalization. When Palafin was still around, it was suboptimal to use TB, but I distinctly remember people using TB Grass to shit on defensive Waters. Iron Bundle with Terra Blast Fire beat actually everything. Dragapult with STAB Terra Blast has a great physical Ghost move and makes it dangerously good. The list goes on - any good offensive Pokemon can bring Terra Blast in an unpredictable way and beat a given counter/check. The argument that it will become predictable doesn't even really hold up too much, because if one check is found to a certain mon+Terra type, Terra Blast can be easily customized into beating said check in a way that wouldn't be possible without universal powerful STAB. This is an endless team-building arms race that will become very old very quick. It's very different from something like Hidden Power, which was substantially weaker both in base power and in practice.

I urge everyone to rethink their opinions on Terra Blast. I get why it seems fine - again, the most dramatic Terrastal threats rarely use it, and if you bring it and don't Terrastalize, it's an extremely dead slot. But I do genuinely think it's part of the Terra problem, and the pinnacle of the unpredictability that is the best argument for banning Terrastalize. Banning Terra Blast should not be the ONLY step taken, but if a non-ban approach is taken (which I hope) or tried, banning Terra Blast should definitely be something that is considered in conjunction with it. 80 base power unpredictable coverage available to all Pokemon, with STAB, and guaranteed to be useful with your higher attack stat, encapsulates the uncompetitive, unpredictable elements of Terrastalization.

TLDR: Regardless of whether or not Terrastalization is deemed competitive or not, Terra Blast as a random 80BP STAB coverage option under the simple circumstance of "Terrastalize the right thing at the right time" has very little predictability or counterplay, and banning Terra Blast should be taken as a genuine option, especially if it's alongside a bigger change.

Edit: This is different from a problem with Terrastalization as a whole. Using an example from above, Chi Yu has no fighting, grass, or water moves. It would not be able to every the pressure it does with Tera Blast without it, even if it did decide to become Fighting or Grass type.

Actually this is why I dismiss Tera Blast as a coverage option: you aren't going to likely to use it if you're aiming to keep tera options widely available (and you should!)

The most potent abusers of tera tend to have coverage moves that turn into STAB options when given the option to tera, reducing the need for Tera Blast, which has been said to death now. The problem in my eyes is this is one of those cases where tera has an opportunity cost: will you always run the option of tera'ing the mon with Tera Blast? If you don't, you sacrifice a pretty big moveslot which could be used better (see: Volcarona Tera-Ground for example) and you're forced to play more carefully with tera'ing that specific mon in mind. I'd say that makes things harder on a player re: when to tera, no? Frankly if we're going to see it as a predicament, it's going to be as a whole mon rather than the move itself.
 

Storm Zone

World Defender
Ok so ive had some time to experience the tier, laddered alot, it was very fun, built alot of teams as well but also these last 2 weeks ive done alot of reflecting, building and observing and ive come to some justifications on why tera should stay in the tier, as usual i have gathered some supporting points to not only back up my argument, but also justify why tera should be unrestricted:

1. The tradeoffs, keep in mind, if u terastallize a pokemon, even with terablast, you also change typing, which means you lose your initial typing, which means the resist that you had for the initial typing is now gone, unĺess u tera the same type which only gives u a 1.33x boost, and after gaining the new typing, u also gain new weaknesses and resistances, which can displace the balance of your team altogether, say you had kingambit for a ghost resist, and u tera into a flying type to counter fighting types like great tusk, you also gain a new weakness to rock and ice types, so stuff like banded chien pao can ice shard, and sd or ice spin on sucker if necessary.

2. One use per game, the guessing game argument becomes invalid here because a team consists of 6 pokemon, not 1, so once a mon is tera'd, u can position accordingly, knowing they cant tera again u can capitalize on the newly gained weakness, so essentially calling it a guessing game is like saying with tera, 1 mon can win the game off the bat, which is untrue, if chi yu uses tera fighting to kill ttar, something like iron valiant can revenge and ohko with moonblast, this is a teambuilder flaw because teams need a defensive backbone, if dragonite uses tera normal, u would use the counter measure you put in place for normal types, And not dragon types.

3. My third point was that it neutralises the matchup concept, how many times have people lost a game and blamed it on mu? Or counter team?, tera factors this out and gives all well built teams a chance to win the game, despite the mu, so its now entirely luck and skill based and not mu based, tera introduces a new unpredictable fun dynamic which allows for exciting games and turnarounds for what seemed to be impossible or boring, it gives that momentum shift, so if say your team got leaked and your opponent cteamed u and he now has the mu, you can position your tera at x point in the game to allow for y core to have a chance to beat it, by full awareness of the sequences your opponent is making. So the matchup factor is neutralised, no one can call impossible matchup or blame it on that excuse.

4. It twists and bends the proportions of teambuilding giving it a new layer which allows for your cognitive abilities to enhance even more, so now this layer is to balance the typings and weaknesses of your team post tera of all pokemon in the tier, lets take dragonite for example, we can take logic here lets use x vs y, x side has dragonite, you know its possible weaknesses, they gonna tera to neutralise it, fairy, ice, and dragon, which means possible teras are fire,steel normal, and water, you are y side now, you know what his dragonite can tera into, you can build against its possible tera forms, so you have iron hands+ corv, iron hands successfully takes on dragonite's normal , water, fire and steel tera, and corv helps vs steel and normal, so we're moving back to x side now, dragonite teras into fire, now we can have a water resist like rotom wash to pair with it, since fire is the new weakness, so you can adjust your cores to benefit your team post tera, it gives u the idea/dynamic that u can build a team that can switch its offenses/defenses to other positions, this gives more teambuilder variety and ultimately never-ending cores, so the tier would never get boring it would be forever changing, so examples, tera fairy dondozo, u have a team with almost no dragon resists, tera dondozo, and now u have the ultimate dragon resist, and u can build around it as if u had a fairy like clef, example 2: tera dark chien pao, dual typings can be consistently used without compression, u can have an ice type since chien pao changes to dark, and ice can be your ice resist like cetitan, and chien pao can be used as your ghost resist, example no. 3: chi yu, tera fire chi yu makes u lose the fighting weaknesses so u can have chi yu + chien pao with only 1 fight resist, since chi yu drops its resist post tera.
Concluding this point by saying u can have double layer teams manipulating tera movesets to shift playstyles from balance to BO mid game, which allows for shorter or longer more exciting games that no one would know the direction till its over, breaking the boundaries and altering the proportions of the building concept altogether to something far deeper i can say with tera, the teambuilder can be limitless.

Conclusion: terastallizing is healthy to keep a competitive and consistent tier alive, since only 1-2 mons are seemingly broken with tera. And with tera, teambuilding is truely more than meets the eye.
 
Ok so ive had some time to experience the tier, laddered alot, it was very fun, built alot of teams as well but also these last 2 weeks ive done alot of reflecting, building and observing and ive come to some justifications on why tera should stay in the tier, as usual i have gathered some supporting points to not only back up my argument, but also justify why tera should be unrestricted:

1. The tradeoffs, keep in mind, if u terastallize a pokemon, even with terablast, you also change typing, which means you lose your initial typing, which means the resist that you had for the initial typing is now gone, unĺess u tera the same type which only gives u a 1.33x boost, and after gaining the new typing, u also gain new weaknesses and resistances, which can displace the balance of your team altogether, say you had kingambit for a ghost resist, and u tera into a flying type to counter fighting types like great tusk, you also gain a new weakness to rock and ice types, so stuff like banded chien pao can ice shard, and sd or ice spin on sucker if necessary.

2. One use per game, the guessing game argument becomes invalid here because a team consists of 6 pokemon, not 1, so once a mon is tera'd, u can position accordingly, knowing they cant tera again u can capitalize on the newly gained weakness, so essentially calling it a guessing game is like saying with tera, 1 mon can win the game off the bat, which is untrue, if chi yu uses tera fighting to kill ttar, something like iron valiant can revenge and ohko with moonblast, this is a teambuilder flaw because teams need a defensive backbone, if dragonite uses tera normal, u would use the counter measure you put in place for normal types, And not dragon types.

3. My third point was that it neutralises the matchup concept, how many times have people lost a game and blamed it on mu? Or counter team?, tera factors this out and gives all well built teams a chance to win the game, despite the mu, so its now entirely luck and skill based and not mu based, tera introduces a new unpredictable fun dynamic which allows for exciting games and turnarounds for what seemed to be impossible or boring, it gives that momentum shift, so if say your team got leaked and your opponent cteamed u and he now has the mu, you can position your tera at x point in the game to allow for y core to have a chance to beat it, by full awareness of the sequences your opponent is making. So the matchup factor is neutralised, no one can call impossible matchup or blame it on that excuse.

4. It twists and bends the proportions of teambuilding giving it a new layer which allows for your cognitive abilities to enhance even more, so now this layer is to balance the typings and weaknesses of your team post tera of all pokemon in the tier, lets take dragonite for example, we can take logic here lets use x vs y, x side has dragonite, you know its possible weaknesses, they gonna tera to neutralise it, fairy, ice, and dragon, which means possible teras are fire,steel normal, and water, you are y side now, you know what his dragonite can tera into, you can build against its possible tera forms, so you have iron hands+ corv, iron hands successfully takes on dragonite's normal , water, fire and steel tera, and corv helps vs steel and normal, so we're moving back to x side now, dragonite teras into fire, now we can have a water resist like rotom wash to pair with it, since fire is the new weakness, so you can adjust your cores to benefit your team post tera, it gives u the idea/dynamic that u can build a team that can switch its offenses/defenses to other positions, this gives more teambuilder variety and ultimately never-ending cores, so the tier would never get boring it would be forever changing, so examples, tera fairy dondozo, u have a team with almost no dragon resists, tera dondozo, and now u have the ultimate dragon resist, and u can build around it as if u had a fairy like clef, example 2: tera dark chien pao, dual typings can be consistently used without compression, u can have an ice type since chien pao changes to dark, and ice can be your ice resist like cetitan, and chien pao can be used as your ghost resist, example no. 3: chi yu, tera fire chi yu makes u lose the fighting weaknesses so u can have chi yu + chien pao with only 1 fight resist, since chi yu drops its resist post tera.
Concluding this point by saying u can have double layer teams manipulating tera movesets to shift playstyles from balance to BO mid game, which allows for shorter or longer more exciting games that no one would know the direction till its over, breaking the boundaries and altering the proportions of the building concept altogether to something far deeper i can say with tera, the teambuilder can be limitless.

Conclusion: terastallizing is healthy to keep a competitive and consistent tier alive, since only 1-2 mons are seemingly broken with tera. And with tera, teambuilding is truely more than meets the eye.
every tournament banned player is the goat ngl
 
I do not see the unpredicability concern as a major offender against Terra. Otherwise we would use Item Clause from Gamefreak aswell. I always wondered why we can spam the best holding Items anyways but I am aware that item clause is something else, just wondered why that argument somehow matters.

I also enjoy that Terra reduces the Problem of losing on Team Preview, something that was clearly missing in past metagames.
 
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