-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Oh God, not another Wobbuffet discussion!
- Thread starter CardsOfTheHeart
- Start date
Contradictory statement since trace triggers on switch in.
if i've said anything thats already been discussed before excuse me...as I got lazy and skipped from page 3 to this last page :p
I've atleast used Wobbuffet a few times and what I've learned from the experiences is that after Wobbuffet loses it's hp it's useless, in the last discussion I was in that discussed Deoxys - S being OU one person mentioned Spiritomb as a counter, as suggested if Wobby becomes OU and is spammed by the masses then I can see that the increase of U-Turn/ Baton Pass to Spiritomb would increase. Taunt as said in previous posts absolutely ruins wobbuffet and I use a Kristy Floatzel so I get major benefits if a Wobbuffet decides to switch in on it, or I switch in Floatzel after one of my pokes died. + critical hits also sting too, that's where I call out Absol *raises eyebrow*
*Wobbuffet may have no counters but mentally the user of the pokemon has to predict and so Wobbuffet is counterable through good guessing* <- This one thing makes me come to saying how clauses were created to deter the amount of prediction and hax that happens in the game to have a game that determines a truly better player.
*Note*
You people who consider Wobbuffet UBER need to present a better argument that just isn't "it's UBER so leave it be" or "it's strong". A sentence is not a solid argument, think of this as a debate if you please. I've gotten so sick of people just giving their two cents that this poke is bad and leave it be without explaining "why?" in a detailed form. The people who argue that Wobbuffet in unstoppable in a sense must think this pokemon has infinite HP do ya?
Not sure if this was mentioned also <- Trace on a wobbuffet's shadow tag doesn't mean wobbuffet gets captured, wobbuffet can still switch out, they changed it in d/p so that Shadow tag couldn't trap other shadow taggers.
I've atleast used Wobbuffet a few times and what I've learned from the experiences is that after Wobbuffet loses it's hp it's useless, in the last discussion I was in that discussed Deoxys - S being OU one person mentioned Spiritomb as a counter, as suggested if Wobby becomes OU and is spammed by the masses then I can see that the increase of U-Turn/ Baton Pass to Spiritomb would increase. Taunt as said in previous posts absolutely ruins wobbuffet and I use a Kristy Floatzel so I get major benefits if a Wobbuffet decides to switch in on it, or I switch in Floatzel after one of my pokes died. + critical hits also sting too, that's where I call out Absol *raises eyebrow*
*Wobbuffet may have no counters but mentally the user of the pokemon has to predict and so Wobbuffet is counterable through good guessing* <- This one thing makes me come to saying how clauses were created to deter the amount of prediction and hax that happens in the game to have a game that determines a truly better player.
*Note*
You people who consider Wobbuffet UBER need to present a better argument that just isn't "it's UBER so leave it be" or "it's strong". A sentence is not a solid argument, think of this as a debate if you please. I've gotten so sick of people just giving their two cents that this poke is bad and leave it be without explaining "why?" in a detailed form. The people who argue that Wobbuffet in unstoppable in a sense must think this pokemon has infinite HP do ya?
Not sure if this was mentioned also <- Trace on a wobbuffet's shadow tag doesn't mean wobbuffet gets captured, wobbuffet can still switch out, they changed it in d/p so that Shadow tag couldn't trap other shadow taggers.
I don't know if someone's mentioned this, but if there's SR out, and you make your Charizard have an odd HP, then can't he just come in on something that's scared of him, Drum, and instantly activate Salac to be left at 1%? Granted, then sand kills him, hail kills him, &c., but it's still a quick setup.
Would it be better if I rephrased the statement to "I feel that Wobbuffet makes the game less competitive"?
When the best idea presented in this thread to kill Wobbuffet is a Toxic Dugtrio on a Revenge-Kill / U-Turn / Baton Pass... that probably should note Wobbuffet's power. This is somewhat ironic as CB Dugtrio is easily demolished by Wobbuffet if Wobbuffet switches in later.
Jumpman at least offered an old thread about the debate with some reasons, but some of his key points to allow testing of Wobbuffet no longer apply to the D/P metagame. Magnaton + Dugtrio as a trapper isn't really effective this generation due to the appearance of Cresselia who is competing with Skarm, and Encore lasts 4+ turns now making Wobbuffet significantly more powerful (Jump had an argument that said Encore wasn't effective against Cursers... 4+ Curses is certainly a bad thing).
Anyway, the same argument has always been used for Wobbuffet's Uber status. It is by definition, uncounterable. Nothing can switch in on a Wobbuffet. The few times that a counter does appear (a surprise Shed Shell...), Wobbuffet can always switch out with exception of Toxic Dugtrio. Even then... should Toxic Spikes be on the field, Toxic Dugtrio dies before Wobbuffet, and Toxic Dugtrio is needless to say much less effective than CB Dugtrio...
It's quite easy. We unban Wobbuffet now, and we could see if it's used or not, or if it is too strong. We won't find new sets for Wobbuffet, but other pokemons can find a good set to counter him. Test him in February, and if we see that it isn't in the top 20, we could let it be in OU, the same as Deoxys-E, it's 44 in usage, although in half month, but with less usage nowadays.
Unban in this month, and we will have a real proof about him.
Unban in this month, and we will have a real proof about him.
Wouldn't any damaging status mark the end of Wobbles? Toxic Dugtrio, sure, but if it switches in on anything with WoW, Toxic, or anything that inflicts burn/poison, he's going to be taking damage. Sandstorm would counteract leftovers, and Ttar is painfully common. I realize that the reason Dugtrio is the best counter is because of arena trap, but if you can force it to switch out because of negative status (either damage or inability to counter/encore via Sleep/Freeze) then you're back to facing a normal counter for your pokemon. This now severely limits what Wobbles can safely switch in on without being forced to bring out something with Heal Bell/Aromatherapy.
I'd hardly call that over-centralization, since most teams have at least 1 statuser on them, and many have 2 or more. Now, instead of having one dedicated statuser, you split the job up.
A team I made for a laugh, called "Team Status," works awesomely against Wobbles. Spore Breloom, Guts'd/U-turning Swellow, Guts'd-Heracross, Toxic Spikes Tentacruel, Yawning Jolteon, and T-wave Clefable. Now, if any of these guys, except Clefable, come up against Wobbles, they can status him and send him running back to Blissey/Celebi.
I'd hardly call that over-centralization, since most teams have at least 1 statuser on them, and many have 2 or more. Now, instead of having one dedicated statuser, you split the job up.
A team I made for a laugh, called "Team Status," works awesomely against Wobbles. Spore Breloom, Guts'd/U-turning Swellow, Guts'd-Heracross, Toxic Spikes Tentacruel, Yawning Jolteon, and T-wave Clefable. Now, if any of these guys, except Clefable, come up against Wobbles, they can status him and send him running back to Blissey/Celebi.
You're missing the point. Unlike SkarmBliss, the CressBliss user can simply switch to Blissey to wall Magneton. Cresselia isn't trapped by Magnezone, so who cares if Magnezone can wall everything Cress does?"Bologo said:
Wouldn't you be a LITTLE concerned about the status move being Encored and Heracross coming in? Especially with a team like that, where your entire team is 1-2HKO'd by CB, Guts Heracross Close Combat (Tentacruel stands the best chance). Or you could simply send in Smeargle, Belly Drum on the switch and reaching Salac range from Poison + Sandstream (since you mentioned is so common), then Spore the Phazer or Baton Pass to Gallade, GG?
You do realize that Blissey's nowhere near safe against Magnezone right? Metal Sound messes up Blissey really badly, and Magnezone can still just explode.
Really, Magnezone can actually take both of them. I'd say that the Aerodactyl/Weavile + Dugtrio combo is better for taking on CressBliss or Blisselia or whatever the hell it's called.
If you switch to blissey, he switches to dugtrio and Blissey dies.
If it Explodes, you don't need a DugZone or whatever it's called, because there's no point to Dugtrio now.
Metal Sound can wear down Blissey, but it'll just Thunder Wave you, then Seismic Toss while you Metal Sound until it reaches -6 SpD. At which point you are one Seismic Toss away from death and slower. After one Metal Sound, Thunderbolt will do 38.52% - 45.20% to Bold, 148 HP/0 SpD from a Modest, 252 SpA Magnezone holding Leftovers, at which point you both 3HKO, but Blissey outspeeds you. If you hold Life Orb, it will do 50.00% - 58.87%, while making you very vulnerable to Seismic Toss. After to Metal Sounds, Thunderbolt does 57.56% - 67.59%, but you've already got hit by Thunder Wave and one Seismic Toss, meaning Blissey wins.
So Metal Sound Megnezone can POSSIBLY beat Blissey, under the right conditions.
If you can predict a Thunder Wave that's coming for Magnezone, you switch to Dugtrio, then Blissey has no chance unless it has Ice Beam. Just like if you know Ice Beam's coming for Dugtrio, you can switch to Magnezone and get behind a sub to start Metal Sounding. Sub can also prevent Thunder Wave from working anyway. I do agree that the combo has been shot a little bit because of Cresselia replacing Skarmory as a physical wall in some instances, but Skarmory is still used more than Cresselia in Ladder play anyway though, so Magtrio still works for them.
Ah well.
Ah well.
I think you ought to consider sets and items in this case. Technically any pokemon can deal with wobbuffet, just throw on toxic. But I would expect a huge shift in the game away from choice items and toward shed shells. I would definitely consider that centralisation that might not be evident from your method here.
I dont mean to be a dick, but who? I mean Obi also thinks Kyogre might not be broken.. That is just his philosophy toward tiers. I dont know for certain this is who you mean but it would be a little unfair to present his views as evidence of exaggeration of Wobbuffets ability.
Have a nice day.
Not being in the top 20 could just mean people think it's gay and are not using it out of courtesy. I know I'm not going to use Wobbuffet, just on principle.
You totally missed the point. Wobb encoring gets you both a free switch and a free turn to stat-up. Simply switching Charizard into EQ gets me a free switch, but then my Charizard is sitting there vulnerable. Same goes for Smeargle.
You're also missing the fact that a BellyZard or a SubDrum Smeargle are both carrying Salac Berry, so outspeeding them isn't as simple as you'd think.
To be perfectly honest, I think it is absolutely retarded to go ahead with this test in the originally proposed way after so many people have expressed concern it could temporarily stuff up the ladder play. I can understand not wanting to organize a tournament like you did for Deoxys-E, but to place Wobbuffet straight onto the ladder reeks of "I created this simulator and I'll do whatever the hell I want, fuck everyone else". It would make far more sense to either create an experimental tier or just add Wobb to non-ladder OU, because neither of those options impact on Shoddy's most competitive mode, but it still gets Wobbuffet tested.
I've been playing with wobbufect a lot today, and it is pretty good, the best part is encoring them, and then switching into a stat upper, who is basically guaranteed a stat up, I use Lucario and Dragonite who resist or are immune to all, but 3 types, its awesome. But as for killing stuff, wobbufect has trouble with that, and he values all his HP. So I stay OU, and top tier.
Wobby is broken because you trap and encore. What you do next is up to you:
Either Counter or Mirror Coat back and kill what is attacking you
Switch something in and set up.
Either way you look at it, Wobby gets stuff done and easily. Basically everything it does is for free. SHADOW TAG IS BROKEN. So is Wobby. Just because he can't kill you directly doesn't mean he won't help something else 6-0 you.
Either Counter or Mirror Coat back and kill what is attacking you
Switch something in and set up.
Either way you look at it, Wobby gets stuff done and easily. Basically everything it does is for free. SHADOW TAG IS BROKEN. So is Wobby. Just because he can't kill you directly doesn't mean he won't help something else 6-0 you.
My claim isn't that too many people think Wobbuffet should be unbanned, just that some well-known/good players have supported testing him. Maybe it wasn't clear but the bold part was meant to emphasise this (especially the word "might"). Numerous people have said they are fine with testing Wobbuffet in the Shoddy Battle chat or elsewhere. I don't want to list names, because I might misrepresent the particulars of somebody's opinion, but my claim is just that there is broad support for testing him--not that there is support for him being permanently unbanned.
Hipmonlee said:
This is just a hunch but I find it quite unlikely that centralisation could be created in move sets and items but not in pokemon used--no doubt move sets and items could be centralised as well, but it seems unlikely that it would happen in isolation.
However, I agree that move sets and items could play into an empirical centralisation detection method. Enough data is already stored to do an analysis of move used on the ladder for all of the months it has existed, but I never got around to aggregating the statistics. There isn't enough stored to check items unfortunately. We could start monitoring items for this month, however.
Really, Wobbuffet can only really switch in once or twice in the match, because it really does take a lot of damage from attacks, especially when there's stuff like Spikes/Stealth Rock up. If Spikes and Stealth Rock are both up, Wobbuffet's going to be taking 37.5% each time he switches in, which severely neuters his ability to take hits and actually do that Encoring.
What does Wobbuffet do if he accidentally gets a sub in his face because he tried to Counter or Mirror Coat?
What does Wobbuffet do if he accidentally gets a sub in his face because he tried to Counter or Mirror Coat?
I've been playing a few matches with it, and Wobbuffet has to be one of the best Smeargle or Breloom set up pokemon out there. I've also gotten quite a few fun comments, like the following.
That was not the first, nor the last comment I've recieved tonight. The unbanning is causing quite a commotion it seems.
That was not the first, nor the last comment I've recieved tonight. The unbanning is causing quite a commotion it seems.
Yeah, don't mind people that just want to whine and call you (BAN ME PLEASE) and such. They're most likely not the best of players anyway. Just whinos. -.-