I don't think regional variants are able to be in different egg groups from the base mon. So Wugtrio needs to be on its own to be in Water 3 and Toedscruel needs to be on its own to be in Grass.
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"Worst Pokémon Ever"
- Thread starter SapphSabre777
- Start date
Fundamentally the concepts of "convergent species" are different from "regional forms", who in a more paralleling term would be "divergent species". Convergent species are conceptually two entirely separate and unrelated species that over time evolved to become more similar to each other despite still not being related. Regional forms are "divergent species" in that they are in a sense the same species that over time due to differences in environment evolved different physiologies, ie they diverged.
If I may give Wugtrio and Toedscruel the benefit of the doubt, these two being the first two and so far only two convergent species thus far may be them playing the concept safe for now to see how well the concept works before eventually expanding upon the convergent species concept in future games and then getting crazier and more out there/creative with it. Wugtrio and Toedscruel are fundamentally different species in basis from their convergent counterparts, as Wugtrio is a garden eel that lives around the ocean as opposed to Dugtrio being a mole that lives in caves, while Toedscruel is a mushroom as opposed to Tentacruel being a jellyfish. And yet both happen to have a lot of similar traits both in aesthetic design and in stat build, hence why they are "convergent", even though they have different typings and abilities from the Pokemon they are strikingly similar to.
After all, with regional forms back then in their debut in SM they were played very safe for the most part, until SwSh and PLA got crazier with them and took the concept further. Alolan Forms were pretty simple and played close to the original forms aside from different typings for many of them, but then you have Hisuian and Galarian forms (and Paldean with Tauros and Wooper) that are much more out there with what they did for them, some going as far as to evolve further from the original final form (Obstagoon and Mr. Rime) and some regional forms evolving into totally different offshoot Pokemon from what their original forms evolved into (Persian/Perrserker, Cofagrigus/Runerigus, Weavile/Sneasler, and Quagsire/Clodsire).
It is entirely possible that they could expand on the convergent species concept with more mons in later games and get more wacky and out there with how to design them like they did with regional forms over time, Wugtrio and Toedscruel merely being the first and being super safe from a design standpoint as a "beginning of trying the concept out" and testing the waters with a design concept they want to start doing.
If I may give Wugtrio and Toedscruel the benefit of the doubt, these two being the first two and so far only two convergent species thus far may be them playing the concept safe for now to see how well the concept works before eventually expanding upon the convergent species concept in future games and then getting crazier and more out there/creative with it. Wugtrio and Toedscruel are fundamentally different species in basis from their convergent counterparts, as Wugtrio is a garden eel that lives around the ocean as opposed to Dugtrio being a mole that lives in caves, while Toedscruel is a mushroom as opposed to Tentacruel being a jellyfish. And yet both happen to have a lot of similar traits both in aesthetic design and in stat build, hence why they are "convergent", even though they have different typings and abilities from the Pokemon they are strikingly similar to.
After all, with regional forms back then in their debut in SM they were played very safe for the most part, until SwSh and PLA got crazier with them and took the concept further. Alolan Forms were pretty simple and played close to the original forms aside from different typings for many of them, but then you have Hisuian and Galarian forms (and Paldean with Tauros and Wooper) that are much more out there with what they did for them, some going as far as to evolve further from the original final form (Obstagoon and Mr. Rime) and some regional forms evolving into totally different offshoot Pokemon from what their original forms evolved into (Persian/Perrserker, Cofagrigus/Runerigus, Weavile/Sneasler, and Quagsire/Clodsire).
It is entirely possible that they could expand on the convergent species concept with more mons in later games and get more wacky and out there with how to design them like they did with regional forms over time, Wugtrio and Toedscruel merely being the first and being super safe from a design standpoint as a "beginning of trying the concept out" and testing the waters with a design concept they want to start doing.
Found a few artists who makes it less Godzilla-looking:
Though you imagine it to look more like these:
I hope this is the case. I like the idea, but my issue is that both evolution stages 1:1 match their convergent species basis. Won't go into what Wugtrio or Toedscruel should have been as that boat has sailed, but future Convergent Pokemon I would like to have only one of their stages be the one that's convergent (aka the one advertised) while either their prevo or evolution looks different. Now I will say Toedscruel does it better than Wugtrio, Toadscruel does become another species of fungus to Toedscool so has something unique about it, but everything about Wugtrio is lazy (according to Bulbapedia the color change may be referencing Giant Tube Worms, which WOULD have been a cool idea if they actually made them look like Giant Tube Worms).
I think you've misinterpreted that Wikipedia definition. The defining feature of a MacGuffin is not that it's "useless" but that it's interchangeable. In a treasure hunt story where the heroes want to find the big diamond before the bad guys do so they can sell it for big money, the diamond is a MacGuffin because its value to the characters and the plot is not a function of any specific property it has. You could swap it for a gold statuette or an ancient priceless manuscript with no change to the story. However, if the diamond were the only object on Earth with the specific refractive properties needed to complete the villain's space laser, it would no longer be a MacGuffin.
Cosmog is not a MacGuffin: its specific wormhole powers are what make it a target for the Aether Foundation and its affinity with the Tapus serves as a (slightly clumsy) justification for why Lillie travels the islands with you. A hypothetical replacement for Cosmog would need all these traits, to the point that it would basically be Cosmog by a different name. Being weak until it evolves does not make it a MacGuffin.
The Zygarde Cells and Cores are a collectible, which automatically disqualifies them from MacGuffin status because the whole point of MacGuffins is that they drive the plot forward.
...anyway, worst Pokemon, right? I'm seeing the word 'laziness' pop up here and I think the best candidates for lazy Pokemon designs from a gameplay standpoint are Panpour, Pansage, and Pansear.
I dislike them less for what they are and more for what they represent. In the first hour of BW, players are essentially railroaded into getting one of them as a gift in order to beat a Gym Leader who's arbitrarily given a type advantage over your starter. Sure, it's very possible to beat Cilan/Cress/Chili without the gift monkey, but every game design decision up to that point is intended to make that as difficult as possible for a casual player.
Your choices for other party members are tightly restricted to Patrat, Lillipup, and Purrloin, so if a first-time player doesn't particularly like any of the four options presented to them besides their starter then they're in trouble when it's time to tackle the Striaton Gym. The new scaled experience system makes grinding way more of a slog, only made more frustrating by the fact that your rivals' starters are programmed to give a pittance in experience purely to stop the player from gaining a level before the first Cheren fight.
Creatively, this has always felt super lazy to me. The monkeys serve as a boring solution to the problem of designing a challenging boss fight. Then, they're used as a boring solution to the new problem of having a boss fight that might be unwinnable for the unlucky kid with a 6x0IV Oshawott who doesn't like Normal-types. Now the poor monkeys are forever tainted for me and I will never ever use them.
I feel judging a pokemon not by its own characteristics but because which pokemon are aroud it in a particular game is cheating
might as well hate Ponyta because of gen 4
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Whilst I think the implementation of the elemental monkeys to give you a perfect counter to the first gym was a bit heavy-handed, especially since the two rivals using the other starters taught you about type match-ups, I like the idea behind it. Gifting the player a Pokemon early on that compliments your starter was a cool idea that could've been explored more, although I think their biggest hinderance was the lack of options as was stated above. Should've had more early game Pokemon available - Pidove, Bliztle, the bugs, etc. so that you weren't pigeon-holed into using the monkey to beat the gym. The monkeys were great for their role though - they weren't game-breakingly strong or hilariously mediocre, you could control when you evolve them thanks to accessing their evolution stone before the third gym, and you could catch either another or a different species not too far past when you got the gift one.
I'm curious if the Monkeys would have been better received if they weren't all monkeys, or at least all looked like the same monkey just with different Type aesthetics. Like, keeping them all monkeys (since that was how they were concepted), what if Pansage was a Tamarin, Pansear was a Mandrill, and Pansage was a Macaque? Also make their stats slightly different, maybe even so that their final stage compliments the player's Starter: Simisage would be a Speedy Special Attacker (compared to Emboar being a Tank), Simisear would be a Speedy Physical Attacker (compared to Samurott being Slow Special-leaning Attacker), and Simipour being a Slow Mixed Attacker (compared to Serperior being a Fast Mixed Wall).
Of course they wouldn't solve the other main issue with them:
I actually don't think including some more Pokemon early on would have helped all that much, at least without making the point of the Gym moot. You're supposed to go there with a disadvantage, period. That's the "puzzle" that needs solving. Now, the "solution" GF came up: Gift Pokemon in a new area, feels forced even if it wasn't one of the other Elemental Monkeys. If we're to break down the lesson of the Striaton Gym, is that you can't always rely on your Starter, you may need help from another Pokemon. However, who says that other Pokemon needs to be your own?
I'm now wondering if the Striaton Gym shouldn't have been a Tag Battle with you partnering with the Triplet that Monkey is weak to yours. You'll then be up against the Triplets whose Monkeys are Stronger and the Same Type as yours. Also, while the two you're versing will have their Lillipups, the Triplet you're partnered with will only have their Monkey. So, the stage has been set: Your first two opponents are the Lillipup who are programmed to attack the opponent facing them. On paper the battle is no problem, you and your partner are both faster than the Lillipup and should be able to 2HKO them, but that's where the puzzle starts. If you focus just on the Lillipup in front of you, your partner will get hit. After taking down the Lillipups, the Monkeys are next. BTW, the partner Triplet is programmed to take out the Lillipup before battling the Monkeys.
- Scenario 1 (Worst Outcome): If you focused on just the Lillipup in front of you, next should be both Monkeys, and unlike the Lillipup they'll like be faster than you or at least will be faster than the partner Triplet. The partner Triplet will focus on the Monkey they're strong against, but so will the Triplet who has the Monkey strong against there's. While the Monkeys could take one hit from their weakness (from the other Monkey), that's where that damage from the Lillipup comes into play. Before your partner is able to attack it'll get knocked out, now leaving you with both Gym Leader's Monkeys to deal with (and thus likely lose).
- Scenario 2 (Best Outcome): However, if you instead both focused on the Lillipup facing the partner Triplet, you should be able to knock it out before it's able to attack. You'll get hit no matter what, but now the partner Triplet's Monkey is entering the 2nd phase with full HP. Now able to take one hit, working together you should be able to knock out the Triplet who has the Monkey strongest against yours. From there, while your parter Triplet will get knocked out next turn, you'll only have the Triplet with the Monkey with the same Type as your Starter who should be much easier to handle.
There, issue solved and didn't need a Gift Pokemon. This will also make the Nacrene Gym also being a Tutorial Gym make more sense as it'll teach you that, while the first Gym gave you a partner with the Type Advantage, Nacrene Gym you're going to have to catch yourself a Fighting-type Pokemon (and maybe then have a gift Roggenrola or maybe a Dwebble so that you have a defensive option you normally wouldn't have access to this early on).
Nah, think Brock in Yellow. You cannot win with your starter. But there's Ratatta, Pidgey, Spearow, and crucially Butterfree, Nidoran M/F, and Mankey all available before him. That's not a LOT of options, especially by modern standards*. But there's 4 out of 7 catches who can fairly easily handle his rocks if you train them up, OR just catch everything and spam status moves. It wouldn't take that much for Striaton Gym to be similar. Toss the 3 monkeys as easy catches instead of gifts, give the player access to a bird/rock/electric, and make sure the early game derps pick up a decent move if you grind them an extra level or two. The puzzle of "use something else" still exists, but it's no longer a solution that's literally handed to you.
*the last traditional games, XY, gave Pidgey, Butterfree, Beedrill, Zigzagoon, Fletchling, Bunnelby, Vivillon, Pikachu, Pansage/sear/pour, Azurill, Dunsparce, Bidoof, Burmy, Farfetch'd, Psyduck, Riolu, and Litleo, just so that you'd have something other than your starter for the Bug gym.
I don't think anyone's brought up this Pokemon yet:
First of all, it's been talked to death about how ugly the design is. Its proportions are way too close to human, which makes it look really creepy. The other genies at least have the gumdrop-shaped head which makes them more appropriately monster-like. I feel like I'd hate it at least 20% less if they gave it the same head, arms, and tail shape as the other genies, and I really can't help but feel like it isn't like the others because of sexist reasons.
Second of all, it fits very poorly into the Forces of Nature, and there was no good reason to change the genie storyline. "Love" is pretty clearly not a natural force in the same way that "wind", "lightning", and "earth" are. Maybe it could have worked if they made it "life" instead, but with the pink hearts everywhere that clearly isn't where they were going. The only good thing it really does is complete the "cardinal beasts" set, but that implies some sort of symmetry, which Enamorus does not have due to the fact that its theming and appearance do not fit with the others. They also didn't bother to change the fact that Landorus has a higher BST than the others (due to its position as the "master" of the trio in the original story). Yes, I realize this comes across as just "change is bad". I don't think the original genies story is particularly masterful writing or that none of the old lore should ever be touched. However, the writing they've done with Enamorus is worse than before, and it seems like the only reason it's connected to the genie trio is for nostalgia baiting. (Side note: I dislike Regieleki and Regidrago for much of the same reasons.)
Enamorus is emblematic of so many of the design trends I dislike, from the designers' weird hangups about gender to the legendary churn to the blatant nostaglia baiting with no regard for thematic coherency. I think that makes it easily one of the worst in both design and thematics.
First of all, it's been talked to death about how ugly the design is. Its proportions are way too close to human, which makes it look really creepy. The other genies at least have the gumdrop-shaped head which makes them more appropriately monster-like. I feel like I'd hate it at least 20% less if they gave it the same head, arms, and tail shape as the other genies, and I really can't help but feel like it isn't like the others because of sexist reasons.
Second of all, it fits very poorly into the Forces of Nature, and there was no good reason to change the genie storyline. "Love" is pretty clearly not a natural force in the same way that "wind", "lightning", and "earth" are. Maybe it could have worked if they made it "life" instead, but with the pink hearts everywhere that clearly isn't where they were going. The only good thing it really does is complete the "cardinal beasts" set, but that implies some sort of symmetry, which Enamorus does not have due to the fact that its theming and appearance do not fit with the others. They also didn't bother to change the fact that Landorus has a higher BST than the others (due to its position as the "master" of the trio in the original story). Yes, I realize this comes across as just "change is bad". I don't think the original genies story is particularly masterful writing or that none of the old lore should ever be touched. However, the writing they've done with Enamorus is worse than before, and it seems like the only reason it's connected to the genie trio is for nostalgia baiting. (Side note: I dislike Regieleki and Regidrago for much of the same reasons.)
Enamorus is emblematic of so many of the design trends I dislike, from the designers' weird hangups about gender to the legendary churn to the blatant nostaglia baiting with no regard for thematic coherency. I think that makes it easily one of the worst in both design and thematics.
I mean you don't have to have a Fire-type, but then you need to deal with all the Levitate Bronzor and Bronzong in Sinnoh some other way. Either you run a Fire-type or you suffer.
I think Lando is technically life because it's a harvest god. So that's already taken.
They could have gone with fertility but that's out of the question for obvious reasons.
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Which is probably what it's supposed to represent, but because of the obvious reasons it's just listed as love. Makes sense as well considering it is said to bring life with the Spring as well some people have made connections with its partial snake motif and a kami of fertility with the body of a snake.
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This part is what bothers me more than anything, especially because in the PLA myth, Landorus and Enamorus seem to be presented as parallels to each other in bringing life/bounty to Hisui, yet Landorus remains stronger than the new mon that they had full reign over and set up next to it. Its other abilities don't fit in line with the remaining FoN members (Prankster and Defiant for the misbehaving-kids role of Torn/Thundurus, Sand/Sheer Force and Intimidate for the "Don't make me come over there!" disciplinary role of Landorus), seeming almost arbitrary with Contrary and Cute Charm (I won't assume implications myself but can see where issue comes in) and then... Overcoat for Therian (even as a Turtle design you have several better fitting abilities for flavor). Its stats don't resemble the other members in any way that suggests cohesion with the Duo or Landorus as the master (several numbers don't appear in the others' BST, rather than just being arranged differently), and the typing doesn't tie into a physical concept (Fairy honestly makes me think of it as a fellow trouble-maker ala the Fair Folk, rather than something tentatively put alongside the controller).I don't think anyone's brought up this Pokemon yet:
First of all, it's been talked to death about how ugly the design is. Its proportions are way too close to human, which makes it look really creepy. The other genies at least have the gumdrop-shaped head which makes them more appropriately monster-like. I feel like I'd hate it at least 20% less if they gave it the same head, arms, and tail shape as the other genies, and I really can't help but feel like it isn't like the others because of sexist reasons.
Second of all, it fits very poorly into the Forces of Nature, and there was no good reason to change the genie storyline. "Love" is pretty clearly not a natural force in the same way that "wind", "lightning", and "earth" are. Maybe it could have worked if they made it "life" instead, but with the pink hearts everywhere that clearly isn't where they were going. The only good thing it really does is complete the "cardinal beasts" set, but that implies some sort of symmetry, which Enamorus does not have due to the fact that its theming and appearance do not fit with the others. They also didn't bother to change the fact that Landorus has a higher BST than the others (due to its position as the "master" of the trio in the original story).
Besides that I don't even get what this thing's role is supposed to be. Before the Genies had something similar to the Weather Trio, two members fighting with cataclysmic weather consequences and a Trio master designed to put them in their place. What does Enamorus do to add to or rewrite this dynamic? It doesn't enforce anything, nothing about its design gives it a role in that set-up, and its behavior makes its absence confusing from previous depictions. It's supposed to be vengeful towards things that disrupt the sanctity of life, yet Landorus is the only being we ever hear about putting Torn/Thund in their place in that same way? If it was something like Calyrex's steed where both work in the legend but there's ambiguity to which it was (in the Rider's case only to have exclusivity to catches), then I'd swallow the late introduction, but as is it's just there and follows Landorus whenever it wanders off to another region.
You bring up the new Regis as other examples of tacking on Legendaries, and while I wouldn't call them graceful they at least don't feel like they contradict the concept behind the previous members, also being large artificial creatures created by Regigigas and sealed away out of fear like it was. Heck, their creation and destructive potential could be argued as a factor in Gigas going from a revered deity to a feared Titan by ancient people.
It reads as if it would work better with Grass than Fairy (keeps the bounty-giving theme, drops the prankster aspect, allows for Sun synergy to work with Landorus' Sand and the pair's Rain). I guess then the problem is that Tornadus already took the green colour scheme.
Maybe we're all thinking too inside the box. The original trio was called the "Forces of Nature" (yes, also in Japan) as they represented natural phenomenon:
Enamorus representing love does feel like the breaking of theme... if you don't consider animals (which would include us humans, and in the Pokemon world the Pokemon) part of nature. The "natural force" Enamorus represents isn't a physical one, but rather an mental one: instincts. It bringing forth life when it arrives in Spring isn't (just) plant life, but rather a representation that Spring time is when many animals get the instinct to start mating and reproducing. Spring is also when plants bloom and start releasing pollen and spores to also propagate. Heck, while plantlife does benefit from Landorus making the ground fertile, Landorus still only represents the land itself. It's Enamorus who is the one who's power signals plants and animals to start using the natural resources that have been storing up since Winter.
And in return for giving fauna the urge to increase their numbers, it expects them to take care of the land to insure the future of animals, plants, and fertility of the land (which the wind and storms help maintain too). Thus when a creature, human or animal/Pokemon, acts destructively toward nature, endangering the balance, being its the deity that brought forth this life it is its job to punish it. The intense cruelty of the punishment could be simply be because its acting out of instinct: it gave you love, you broke its trust, so now it's lashing out in intense anger.
As other inspirations towards the design, Lockstin did a pretty good overall coverage of the Forces of Nature. Now he doesn't make the "fauna (& flora) reproduction" argument I made above, though one thing he suggests as a stretch is that the turtle's connection to "love" is that it represents longevity. Doesn't quite fit with what he discusses, BUT if we connect it to my "reproduction" argument I say it makes better sense as the reason life reproduces is so that the species can keep living on as the older members pass away. Enamorus is trying to preserve the longevity of life.
- Tornadus represented the wind.
- Thundurus represented storms, particularly lightning storms.
- Landorus represented the land, particularly fertile land which grew plant life.
Enamorus representing love does feel like the breaking of theme... if you don't consider animals (which would include us humans, and in the Pokemon world the Pokemon) part of nature. The "natural force" Enamorus represents isn't a physical one, but rather an mental one: instincts. It bringing forth life when it arrives in Spring isn't (just) plant life, but rather a representation that Spring time is when many animals get the instinct to start mating and reproducing. Spring is also when plants bloom and start releasing pollen and spores to also propagate. Heck, while plantlife does benefit from Landorus making the ground fertile, Landorus still only represents the land itself. It's Enamorus who is the one who's power signals plants and animals to start using the natural resources that have been storing up since Winter.
And in return for giving fauna the urge to increase their numbers, it expects them to take care of the land to insure the future of animals, plants, and fertility of the land (which the wind and storms help maintain too). Thus when a creature, human or animal/Pokemon, acts destructively toward nature, endangering the balance, being its the deity that brought forth this life it is its job to punish it. The intense cruelty of the punishment could be simply be because its acting out of instinct: it gave you love, you broke its trust, so now it's lashing out in intense anger.
As other inspirations towards the design, Lockstin did a pretty good overall coverage of the Forces of Nature. Now he doesn't make the "fauna (& flora) reproduction" argument I made above, though one thing he suggests as a stretch is that the turtle's connection to "love" is that it represents longevity. Doesn't quite fit with what he discusses, BUT if we connect it to my "reproduction" argument I say it makes better sense as the reason life reproduces is so that the species can keep living on as the older members pass away. Enamorus is trying to preserve the longevity of life.
Apparently
- Tornadus and Thundurus were initially designed as red and blue demons, but were changed as they clashed with Sawk and Throh, who were also later redesigned to distance them further. In addition, Landorus was added later when a change was made during development, suggesting that the Forces of Nature was meant to be a duo as opposed to initially a trio.
Incarnate Dex: “According to legend, this Pokémon's love gives rise to the budding of fresh life across Hisui.”
I mean this is about as direct a reference to a fertility god/goddess as Pokemon would be allowed to do.
Therian Dex: “From the clouds, it descends upon those who treat any form of life with disrespect and metes out wrathful, ruthless punishment.”
Seems like a reference to protective mothers to me.
I wouldn't really call Lenora a "tutorial" in the vein that Cilan, Chili, and Cress are. If anything Lenora is more like your actual typical "First Gym Leader" that you would typically meet like Brock, Falkner, Roark, Cheren, Viola, Katy, etc., in the sense that she's BW1's actual "first boss fight" like Brock/Roxanne/Roark, Falkner, or Viola/Katy are. She uses a common "early-game" type, Normal, which is in my eyes one of the four common "early-game" types: Normal, Bug, Rock, and Flying. In that sense she's actually closer to your traditional first Gym Leader after Striaton is basically a "mandatory tutorial".
Especially when you consider the general way the game is structured around the point you reach her. After Striaton, the pool of available options you have at your disposal widens up to be as wide as the pool of options you would usually get before the first Gym in your typical Pokemon game. And like how your options are usually a mix of advantaged and disadvantaged against the likes of Rock, Bug, and Flying, and a new player would have to figure out the best advantages (Rock, Bug, and Flying have intuitive match-ups against early game mons usually), in this case it's a matter of whether your options are strong enough in a vacuum to win.
Normal is basically the "baseline" type which is why it's a common early game type and effective as a "first boss": it's not really weak to anything but it also does not resist anything either. In that sense it's largely neutral. In return, it's also largely unresisted but doesn't hit anything super effectively. And while it's a bit different from Bug and Rock in that in those cases, one/two starters are advantaged while one is disadvantaged from a type matchup standpoint, in this case none of the starters have any type advantage or disadvantage against Lenora...in a vacuum that is.
That said, with the Unova starters they also actively went out of their way to give one of the starters an advantage against Lenora, in this case Tepig, who by the point you reach Lenora should have already evolved once into Pignite, who is part Fighting type and learns Arm Thrust upon evolving. This means players who chose Tepig basically have a free advantage with their own starter being a Fighting-type and thus being able to hit Lenora's Pokemon super effectively, basically making it the "starter who has the advantage" like Grass/Water starters against Brock, Roxanne, Roark and Fire starters against Viola, Katy, and Milo. That said, Servine and Dewott, who also should've evolved once by this point, are by no means ineffective against Lenora, and from a raw stat and power standpoint your starter should be the strongest Pokemon you have in your arsenal at this point, and despite not being able to hit Lenora's Herdier and Watchog super effectively in a vacuum, Servine and Dewott are still by all means strong enough to hold their own against Lenora.
With Lenora, the pool of options you'd have at this point are your evolved starter, Lillipup/Herdier, Patrat, Purrloin, monkey, Munna, Pidove, Blitzle, Roggenrola, Woobat, Drilbur, Audino, Timburr, Tympole, Throh, and Sawk. Note that as I said, this is a similar magnitude of available options you would usually have by the first Gym in most traditional Pokemon games in other regions (and BW2). And while Throh and Sawk are the absolute strongest options you have against Lenora and basically guarantee a win against her, you are not railroaded into using them nor are you necessarily obligated to use them to get the win. Many of your options are shaky because of a power gap between them and Herdier+Watchog, but your starter can still reasonably do well (you are basically set to win if you have Pignite), you can go for Timburr or Sawk/Throh to get the offensive advantage, or alternatively you can go for the defensive route with Roggenrola, who can use its high physical Defense and Normal resistance to endure hits from Watchog and Herdier defensively (and you can teach it Rock Smash to hit them super effectively too!). An NPC also give you a TM for Rock Smash nearby to teach to your other Pokemon as an alternative.
Lenora's Watchog is really more of an actual "first boss" Pokemon like Brock's Onix, Roark's Cranidos, Viola's Vivillon, etc. A Pokemon who's particularly strong for that point and can easily take down/wall the mons you will have at your disposal at that point but has a few loopholes that can be taken advantage of and it's on you, the player, to figure out how to beat it. And naturally, there will be some options that are more powerful/effective against Watchog, but it's not so unstoppable as to force you to use a specific option to win. You have multiple ways to win: brute force with your evolved starter, wall with Roggenrola, hit super effectively with Timburr/Sawk/Throh, or a combination of all of them. But ultimately it's on you to figure out a winning strategy: Lenora presents to you an actually tough fight, but the player has to figure out how to win on their own.
I ranted quite a bit here, but this ties into the recent discussion about the monkeys and Striaton Gym and how that whole thing is designed with respect to your available options.
Striaton is pretty much not really designed to be a boss fight nor intended to be actually difficult: it is straight up an explicit tutorial which is why the game railroads you into using the monkey for it. You have your starter (disadvantage), Patrat/Lillipup (neutral), and the monkey (advantage), and a new player in a vacuum hypothetically speaking will have all three: Patrat or Lillipup being their first catch that the game basically encouraged them to capture on Route 1. It's an explicit tutorial on how types can interact, and the railroading is designed in such a way that from a new player's perspective, it explicitly communicates two concepts: the concept of type advantage and disadvantage, and the message that you will need teammates of a variety of types to cover for each others' weaknesses to succeed.
Nacrene Gym and Lenora on the other hand function more as the actual "first boss" that most of the first Gyms do: Lenora is a genuine threat and a formidable/challenging opponent and at this point all of your usual early game options are available and obtainable, but only a select few will give you the advantage to secure an easier win: that said, it's not totally undoable to use alternative strategies to achieve victory. And your starter, no matter who you choose, can be your strongest weapon against them, even if one of them is strictly more advantaged than the other two (Pignite).
BW1's adventure and game is structured in an unusual way, so this is worth highlighting in regards to this discussion. That said, BW2's adventure is more like a traditional Pokemon adventure in other mainline games and plays a Normal-type Gym Leader as the "first boss" more straight with Cheren being the first Gym Leader and being a Normal specialist while not having such an explicit tutorial like Striaton in BW1.
Coalossal was commonly used with Weavile+Surf to give itself the speed boost.
I don’t get it.So if Tornadus and Thundurus are Fujin and Raijin, then that would make Landorus...
It's a Final Fantasy 8 reference. Character pictured there is Seifer, the main rival and recurring antagonist, who at the start of the game attends the same military academy as you and your other early party members do. During the early game taking place in the academy, Seifer pretty much takes the role of the bully and has two lackies who are named Fujin and Raijin. I haven't played or really seen a playthrough of FF8 so not sure what happens to them after the academy and Seifer joins the main villain, though I do know in the Kingdom Hearts games all three show up in KH2 as teens in the early part of the game once again taking the role of bullies for the player character and their friends (though after that they're shoved to the side as they don't have a role in the main story).
