(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[Karxrida]

Not Pokemon specifically, but rather something about Bulbapedia when it comes to Moves on their Type pages:

I wish the Z-Moves and Max Moves were separated into their own section. I look through the Moves on the Type page every so often (usually for a post here or a personal idea) and it's annoying when trying to check the normal Moves having to scroll past those special Moves. Max are easy enough to skip, but the Z-Moves don't have a signifier. Also, since the "normal" Z-Moves and all Max Moves can be either Physical or Special they're listed twice! Oh, and not to mention THEY ARE ONLY USABLE IN GENS THAT INCLUDE THEIR SUPER MECHANIC!

I get including them, but list them underneath the normal Moves.

Related: I really wish Bulbapedia would reorganize some of their pages. Specifically the Pokémon ones.

Nine times out of ten a person is visiting a Pokémon page to go look at game data like stats and movepool. (You can look up movepools here but it doesn't tell you how the Pokémon gets the moves.) And all that shit outside of abilities is buried at the bottom of the page for some reason. Hell, the stats are listed after a bunch of other data in their section. Yeah, the Pokédex entries are cool and they should be written down somewhere, but I just want to double check Gyarados's Speed stat and see the level it gets Ice Fang without having to scroll for five years.

The site's priorities are wack.

Same deal as Spotlight, a move which was introduced in Gen 7 and then snapped in Gen 8.

I have never heard of this move before lol.

 

[pika pal]

Why is Damp still a 90% worthless ability in 2023?

Look after that thing saved me from a Shiny Skuntank blowing itself up I will never shit talk that ability in-game again

 

[RocketSurgery]

Speaking of odd Bulbapedia decisions, I mildly dislike their definition of a signature move, which counts any move as such if any other Pokemon that has learned the move is currently dexited or if the move has been removed from all but a single family's moveset. I don't care if Greninja was not in gen 8, water shuriken is not Accelgor's signature move!

(More seriously, Bulbapedia's definition is better than "move frequently associated with a Pokemon," since that would be rather subjective. My annoyance is that Bulbapedia doesn't put any asterisk or marker on moves in the table that they consider signature moves for dexit/gen specific learnset reasons, or a grey space to indicate that a mon is dexited in that gen. As it is now you can't necessarily tell without scoruing the entire table that, e.g., spectral thief is not counted as Marshadow's signature move because it is not in SV as opposed to the possibility that another mon can learn it now).

 

[Ironmage]

Speaking of odd Bulbapedia decisions, I mildly dislike their definition of a signature move, which counts any move as such if any other Pokemon that has learned the move is currently dexited or if the move has been removed from all but a single family's moveset. I don't care if Greninja was not in gen 8, water shuriken is not Accelgor's signature move!

(More seriously, Bulbapedia's definition is better than "move frequently associated with a Pokemon," since that would be rather subjective. My annoyance is that Bulbapedia doesn't put any asterisk or marker on moves in the table that they consider signature moves for dexit/gen specific learnset reasons, or a grey space to indicate that a mon is dexited in that gen. As it is now you can't necessarily tell without scoruing the entire table that, e.g., spectral thief is not counted as Marshadow's signature move because it is not in SV as opposed to the possibility that another mon can learn it now).

I've been caught out multiple times looking that mon X has picked up move Y recently but similar mon X2 hasn't and trying to think of a clever explanation, without noticing that X2 was dexited in the relevant game.

Of course, not having dexit in the first place would have avoided this problem entirely.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Speaking of odd Bulbapedia decisions, I mildly dislike their definition of a signature move, which counts any move as such if any other Pokemon that has learned the move is currently dexited or if the move has been removed from all but a single family's moveset. I don't care if Greninja was not in gen 8, water shuriken is not Accelgor's signature move!

(More seriously, Bulbapedia's definition is better than "move frequently associated with a Pokemon," since that would be rather subjective. My annoyance is that Bulbapedia doesn't put any asterisk or marker on moves in the table that they consider signature moves for dexit/gen specific learnset reasons, or a grey space to indicate that a mon is dexited in that gen. As it is now you can't necessarily tell without scoruing the entire table that, e.g., spectral thief is not counted as Marshadow's signature move because it is not in SV as opposed to the possibility that another mon can learn it now).

Bulbapedia's judgement of what constitutes a signature move is... inconsistent at best. The criteria seems to be "if only one thing learns it naturally, it's that thing's signature move". Like Octazooka for instance was pretty clearly meant to be Octillery's signature move in Gens II-VII, even though Horsea has always learned it via breeding. Right, makes sense, Pokemon get all kinds of funky moves from breeding so that's not exactly a "natural" method of learning it.

But this rule seems not to apply if a move is learned by TM or tutoring. So for instance in Gen I Skull Bash, Pay Day, Psywave, Mega Kick, Substitute, and Sky Attack are all TMs which multiple Pokemon can learn - nothing learns Psywave naturally, but Squirtle learns Skull Bash by level, Meowth and Persian learn Pay Day by level, Hitmonlee learns Mega Kick by level, Mr Mime learns Substitute by level, and Moltres learns Sky Attack by level. In Gen II these moves are no longer TMs and still only learned naturally by the aforementioned Pokemon, with Misdreavus becoming the only Pokemon to learn Psywave by level. But Bulbapedia only counts them as signature moves in Gen II, which I've never really thought made sense. TMs are much like breeding in that Pokemon can often get diverse or unusual moves from them; surely all of those moves are signature moves in Gen I too?

It's especially weird for Misdreavus, which has a much stronger case for a signature move in Gen II in Pain Split (which tbf Bulbapedia also does deem its signature in that gen - Koffing is the only other species to get it in Gen II, again by breeding). Like, if someone says "Psywave" I don't think anyone automatically goes "ah yes, Misdreavus's signature move!" - Psywave existed before Misdreavus did and plenty of things could learn it in Gen I. And if a move is only learnable by TM but then ceases to be a TM, something will have to learn it naturally next generation. (Nightmare actually has this issue in Gen III as it was another machine-learnable move in Gen II; nothing in RS gets it, and it was quietly added to the Gastly and Drowzee line's movepools in FRLG.)

They also have a thing for retroactively deeming something a signature move if movepools change between generations such that a single Pokemon learns a move. Steel Wing is considered Skarmory's signature... but only in Gen V because it's no longer a TM, even though Skarmory was the only Pokemon that learned it naturally in Gen II, III, and IV. Similarly, Hidden Power is not deemed Unown's signature move until Gen VIII despite numerous other Pokemon like Shellos and Medicham learning it naturally throughout the series. Softboiled is Chansey and Blissey's signature in every generation apart from I and III, where it's a TM and tutor move respectively. This is even despite the NPC who gives the TM in Gen I explicitly saying that "the only Pokemon that can learn it is Chansey!"

I guess my point is that what constitutes a signature move should have a lot more to do with flavour and lore than just availability. And sure there's an element of "why not both" there, but I think Bulbapedia's approach takes it far too literally. Sky Attack is described as "the strongest Flying-type move", which kind of suggests that it's a move most Flying-types should be able to learn (and it is); the same holds true for Hyper Beam or Fire Blast. Nothing inherently associates that with Moltres, unless we're accepting that Moltres is the strongest Flying-type species.

 

[Worldie]

Honestly I think the main struggle is that "Signature move" (and ability) is basically a fan made concept and not something GameFreaks aknowledges that much.

The fact moves and abilities previously unique to a Pokemon become available to others, or sometimes the reverse (like I think Machamp is the only natural learner of Strenght since the HM removal?) shows they don't really have a precise direction on if something should be unique to a mon or not.

I think it's possible that recently they have made their philosophy to try to have every new pokemon have "something unique", which while creates bloat, helps actually distinguish a mon amongst other mons of same or similar type, like for example Baxcalibur having both signature move and ability that give it a interesting "phisical sweeper immune to burns" identity rather than "just another dragon dancer godzilla".
However, they don't really have interest in keeping these moves and abilities as unique all the time going forward, probably "helped" by the fact Dexit exists, so they eventually redistribute the moves to a few more mons in the following gens if they think they aren't too linked to the mon in question. Kinda like for example Incineroar's Darkest Lariat was eventually given around to a few more mons, whereas Sparkling Aria was only actually given to Lapras (honestly I think Jinx and Jigglypuff could have had it too...) but Spirit Shackle remained unique to Decidueye as it's integral part of the "archer ghost" identity and wouldn't really fit on other pokemon. Well at least until they make another archer pokemon anyway.

 

[AztecCroc]

The fact moves and abilities previously unique to a Pokemon become available to others, or sometimes the reverse (like I think Machamp is the only natural learner of Strenght since the HM removal?) shows they don't really have a precise direction on if something should be unique to a mon or not.

Machamp was the only Pokémon to learn Strength in Gen 7, in Gen 8+ they gave it to a bunch of other stuff via level up (Machop/Machoke, Pinsir, Mudbray/Mudsdale, Stufful/Bewear, Cuffant/Copperajah) also the Grooky line via egg.

 

[Worldie]

Machamp was the only Pokémon to learn Strength in Gen 7, in Gen 8+ they gave it to a bunch of other stuff via level up (Machop/Machoke, Pinsir, Mudbray/Mudsdale, Stufful/Bewear, Cuffant/Copperajah) also the Grooky line via egg.

Case in point on how finnicky (is this a word?) and inconsistent they themselves are with signature moves.

I don't really think they have a actual definition for them at all and it's really just another of those "fan made rules" which we expect them to respect except it never existed in first place.

 

[R_N]

Signature Moves being a ~fan made concept~* is irrelevant. The page (& other assorted blurbs) talk about it because its factually true: some Pokemon (or line) X is the only Pokemon that has some move Y. Ergo, it is a signature move. There's a ton of these still signature to this day, it's interesting trivia, and you can make a fun chart out of it. GameFreak making them not signature as generations go on doesn't matter, because the page tracks it anyway, and that isn't the thing being groused about.

The "problem" (such as it is, no one is actually mad about this) being described isn't on GameFreak it's Bulbapedia. Their criteria for what counts is inconsistent in some regards and weirdly strict on others. Like at one point it listed Psycho Boost as a Lugia signature move in gen 8 because you could get that from XD and transfer it up to SWSH at one point. That's super goofy if you're not going to acknowledge breeding moves. If anything it should either be more granular or less.

 

[Worldie]

And my point was that probably Bulbapedia also doesn't know how to define "signature moves" and their own definition probably changes every other year because they're trying to cover a trait that functionally doesn't actually exist :P
Since articles aren't exactly written at same time, one could be from a time when they defined a signature move as "only this pokemon can learn it", one can be from "only this pokemon can learn this via level up", and so on.

They could probably use some cleanup, but they also have at this point an insane amount of pages they'd need to go through...

 

[R_N]

And my point was that probably Bulbapedia also doesn't know how to define "signature moves" and their own definition probably changes every other year because they're trying to cover a trait that functionally doesn't actually exist :P
Since articles aren't exactly written at same time, one could be from a time when they defined a signature move as "only this pokemon can learn it", one can be from "only this pokemon can learn this via level up", and so on.

They could probably use some cleanup, but they also have at this point an insane amount of pages they'd need to go through...

It likely isn't differing like that; they consistently update every page to match each other anyway.
Which is to say that me personally, if I was using a fan made term on the fan run fan site that continually updates every related page every time a change happens, I'd define it in a way that makes sense

 

[Coronis]

I mean, if ya’ll have such a problem with anything on Bulbapedia, why not go on there and start changing it?

a interesting "phisical sweeper immune to burns" identity rather than "just another dragon dancer godzilla".

I mean, its literally just Ttar and Baxcalibur, and both are different enough in other ways that I don’t think the unique ability/move matter that much.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I mean, if ya’ll have such a problem with anything on Bulbapedia, why not go on there and start changing it?

I wouldn't necessarily say anyone in this conversation has a problem. More that we're accepting the premise and quibbling the semantics.

And I'm a big fan of Bulbapedia in general: it's an absolute font of detail and trivia, to a literally subatomic level. Which I can't fault at all, I love my trivia too (in fact I think if I got involved with editing it I'd literally never stop). I'm absolutely in favour of more detail over less, even when it doesn't always serve a practical purpose.

As an example of what I mean by that, they even have a page on version-exclusive moves, which... well yeah sure, it's interesting, and has some utility, but a lot of what it covers isn't practically that useful. Even if the only Pokemon that learns a certain move is found in another version (like Meowth not being in Gold or Lugia not being found in Omega Ruby)... Sketch exists. Metronome exists. So they're not strictly version-exclusive in the way an actual species might be.

So that page is an example of where there's almost too much detail. Is it a bad thing? Nah, not at all.

Honestly I think the main struggle is that "Signature move" (and ability) is basically a fan made concept and not something GameFreaks aknowledges that much.

I'm surprised that the "this is a fan-made concept" banner you see on certain pages isn't on the signature move page, actually.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I mean, if ya’ll have such a problem with anything on Bulbapedia, why not go on there and start changing it?

Changing stuff like that will lead to your edits being immediately reverted, and probably cause a huge thread in the talk page that will span years and never actually accomplish anything.

EDIT: it's worse than I thought

 

[Sonikku A]

Technically Cardass cards were based on signature moves for Gen 1 mons
...but then that pretty much became outdated when more moves/mons came. Some choices were weird too

 

[Castersvarog]

What I’d do is separate the signature move page in two parts instead of the massive list we have now.
One half being true signature moves, stuff like Decidueye and Spirit Shackle or Pikachu line and Volt Tackle. Moves like Water Shuriken would have that asterisk tied to it where it’s Greninjas signature move in Gen 7 but not later on when Accelgor got it to.
Meanwhile the other half would be signature moves by technicality. Stuff like Cut being Kartanas signature move because it’s not an HM anymore, Accelgor and Water Shuriken or half the Gen 8/9 examples where the other Mons that can learn the move just aren’t available in the game.

And from there you could reasonably divi things further with sections showing off Signature moves available via breedings or Events like with Horsea and Sabeleye learning Octozooka via different means.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Same deal as Spotlight, a move which was introduced in Gen 7 and then snapped in Gen 8.

Except Spotlight is a normal move not connected to any super mechanic. At any time they can re-introduce Spotlight if they so please.

I really wish Bulbapedia would reorganize some of their pages. Specifically the Pokémon ones.

Nine times out of ten a person is visiting a Pokémon page to go look at game data like stats and movepool. (You can look up movepools here but it doesn't tell you how the Pokémon gets the moves.) And all that shit outside of abilities is buried at the bottom of the page for some reason.

Yeah, while I understand having the Biology section remain the first section as it's a brief summary of the Pokemon, after that is when they should have it's Stats and Movepool; I don't really need to know its anime appearances that badly.

Page Re-Order

Biology
Game Data
* Evolution Line
* Stats
* Type Chart
* Game Locations
* Held Items
* Movepool
* Dex Entries
* Main Series Sprites/Models
* Side Game Stuff
Anime
Manga
TCG
Trivia & Origins

EDIT: it's worse than I thought

At least the arguments there have some merit behind them being made... Leaf & Green.

Technically Cardass cards were based on signature moves for Gen 1 mons
...but then that pretty much became outdated when more moves/mons came. Some choices were weird too

Eh, some, but not most. If anything they were just trying to be cute by having each Pokemon perform a different Move. If they had a Signature Move, great, that's what one member of the family showcased... but if they didn't they just went with a normal Move and tried not to repeat (though sometimes it was unavoidable).

 

[Scorpio]

Eh, some, but not most. If anything they were just trying to be cute by having each Pokemon perform a different Move. If they had a Signature Move, great, that's what one member of the family showcased... but if they didn't they just went with a normal Move and tried not to repeat (though sometimes it was unavoidable).

obligatory Helix Chamber link incoming

Actually, several moves in Gen 1 were possibly designed around various singular Pokémon (including some cut ones) and then later doled out to other Pokémon; the Cardass set actually correlates with this theoretical listing, though whether this is by design or just coincidence only GF knows.

 

[Sonikku A]

Not so much something that annoys me, but it gets me how imbalanced things can be for legendary trios to each other. Note, in context of debut gen

Bird Trio;
Zapdos is faster than both Articuno and Moltres. While Gen 1 Blizzard is super good, it will only 2HKO. So Zapdos outlasts and uses Thunder/Tbolt (which at min does 53%)
Moltres meanwhile...it's strongest move is Sky Attack, which is based on Atk stat nor SE, and Fire Blast, which only harms Articuno. Articuno also can do SE damage to fire Gen 1, so it evens out. Zapdos being faster helps it more, but it's a close match for all 3 otherwise

Comp wise: Zapdos is the best for usage

Legendary Beasts;
Raikou offensively is the best with good SpAtk and Speed, though Suicune is bulky enough to take it. Suicune however can't really bite back. Entei meanwhile suffers from Flareon syndrome in being a physical Fire type pre Gen 4

Comp wise: Both Raikou and Suicune are set, former slightly easier to use

Weather Trio;
I said it before, but yeesh. Rayqua's 4x weakness to ice means Kyogre can dominate it no sweat. Groudon being slower means rock None stab wouldn't really matter, since Ray can 2KO it. And then being a Ground Type to Kyogre having Water Spout kinda sucks. Kyogre definitely wins this Gen

Comp wise: Rayquaza's speed tier helps it a lot, same for coverage. Kyogre is still very powerful though, a good close second

Sprite trio;
Ehhh, their coverage sucks. Azelf pretty much just has Fling for SE damage, but that's a one and done thing, and nowhere enough to kill either Uxie and Mespirit. It'll be a long brawl boring to watch honestly, with Azelf maybe winning

Comp wise: Azelf barely is in OU

Creation Trio;
Dialga is the only one neutral to Palkia's Spatial Rend, and can lash back with Draco meteor OHKOing Palkia easily most sets. Giratina meanwhile, while it has Aura Sphere, it's still not enough to OHKO, so the base 90 speed coin flip will determine who'll win, unless Dialga low rolls. Ironically, Origin Form does worse against Dialga due to worse Sp Def, so a Draco Meteor kills it there. Palkia vs Giratina still has it lose :V

Comp wise: Palkia is far more used due to its Type combo being great defensively and offensively. Then Gen 5 happened

Will finish later...

 

[QuentinQuonce]

EDIT: it's worse than I thought

God so I finally just had the time to wade in and read this and good grief, my brain hurts

Not so much something that annoys me, but it gets me how imbalanced things can be for legendary trios to each other. Note, in context of debut gen

Bird Trio;
Zapdos is faster than both Articuno and Moltres. While Gen 1 Blizzard is super good, it will only 2HKO. So Zapdos outlasts and uses Thunder/Tbolt (which at min does 53%)
Moltres meanwhile...it's strongest move is Sky Attack, which is based on Atk stat nor SE, and Fire Blast, which only harms Articuno. Articuno also can do SE damage to fire Gen 1, so it evens out. Zapdos being faster helps it more, but it's a close match for all 3 otherwise

Comp wise: Zapdos is the best for usage

Legendary Beasts;
Raikou offensively is the best with good SpAtk and Speed, though Suicune is bulky enough to take it. Suicune however can't really bite back. Entei meanwhile suffers from Flareon syndrome in being a physical Fire type pre Gen 4

Comp wise: Both Raikou and Suicune are set, former slightly easier to use

Weather Trio;
I said it before, but yeesh. Rayqua's 4x weakness to ice means Kyogre can dominate it no sweat. Groudon being slower means rock None stab wouldn't really matter, since Ray can 2KO it. And then being a Ground Type to Kyogre having Water Spout kinda sucks. Kyogre definitely wins this Gen

Comp wise: Rayquaza's speed tier helps it a lot, same for coverage. Kyogre is still very powerful though, a good close second

Sprite trio;
Ehhh, their coverage sucks. Azelf pretty much just has Fling for SE damage, but that's a one and done thing, and nowhere enough to kill either Uxie and Mespirit. It'll be a long brawl boring to watch honestly, with Azelf maybe winning

Comp wise: Azelf barely is in OU

Creation Trio;
Dialga is the only one neutral to Palkia's Spatial Rend, and can lash back with Draco meteor OHKOing Palkia easily most sets. Giratina meanwhile, while it has Aura Sphere, it's still not enough to OHKO, so the base 90 speed coin flip will determine who'll win, unless Dialga low rolls. Ironically, Origin Form does worse against Dialga due to worse Sp Def, so a Draco Meteor kills it there. Palkia vs Giratina still has it lose :V

Comp wise: Palkia is far more used due to its Type combo being great defensively and offensively. Then Gen 5 happened

Will finish later...

A bit devil's advocate here I know, but do these Pokemon have to be balanced? In-battle stats are largely completely distinct from the lore: it's a gameplay/story segregation thing.

Type advantages don't seem to be a massive consideration when it comes to lore either. Like I remember having at least one spirited debate with friends about "which legendary bird is strongest"; well, on type alone that's indisputably Zapdos. But objectively it's none of them because we're meant to see them as a balanced and equal set. Zygarde's Aura Break clearly points to it supposed to be it being a supposed nerf to Xerneas and Yveltal but practically this will never stop either outplaying it thanks to Yveltal's immunity to Ground and Xerneas' immunity to Dragon. BW highlights the disparity between the beasts in the Zoroark event, because Zoroark turns into the beast that's advantaged against the one you bring: if you bring Suicune, you get Raikou, if you bring Entei, you get Suicune, and if you bring Raikou, you get... er, Entei.

But these Pokemon have different stats and coverage because it'd be dull if each member of a trio had the same stats (though sometimes they do; Xerneas and Yveltal have identical stat spreads, as do Tornadus and Thundurus in their Incarnate forms).

Even though you can employ various tactics in battle to work around stat differences and type disadvantages, that's not something that comes up when we see legendary Pokemon interact. Like how in Emerald Groudon and Kyogre are fighting and shown to be equally balanced, with the weather shifting back and forth because neither can take the upper hand, this despite Groudon's weakness to water and the fact that it's literally fighting Kyogre in an environment advantageous to Kyogre. It's evidentthat they aren't having a straightforward battle like we the players do. Otherwise Groudon could just use Solarbeam on Kyogre when the weather turns sunny, or when Rayquaza arrives to break things up Kyogre could just blast it with an Ice Beam and tell it to sod off.

The one on the right looks much more reasonable. (Side note: it's so dumb how in Emerald you can literally surf right up to the two of them as they're fighting - put some rocks or lava or whirlpools around them or something.)

Or like how Azelf, Uxie, and Mesprit are said to be equal to either Dialga or Palkia (though that's actually one of the better examples: I actually think in a straight 1v3 battle there's a reasonable chance of either side emerging victorious). But they have no difficulty suppressing Dialga/Palkia's power in DP and it's said that they'd be able to do so in Platinum too if the other was not present. I think in a lot of these instances equal shades of Cutscene Power To The Max and Cutscene Incompetence apply.

On a slight tangent I do think that Mega Rayquaza's ability does what Air Lock should have done from the start (removing Flying weaknesses). I guess by Gen III standards that would have been very broken though.

 

[R_N]

I think being "equal" to Dialga/Palkia is meant to be how it's shown int the cutscene. Together they can stop the rampage from going out of control. Palkia could probably do something similar were it, too, not also rampaging out of control and also interested in actually stopping it (in fact that's kind of the gist in Legends Arceus, except the other one goes so out of control it goes a step above).

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Kinda goes to show how these forums are still at their core competitive focused when while it's understandable, the thing with legendary trios is that I don't really think Game Freak cares about "balance" with them in terms of battling capabilities or about Smogon competitive (it's well established that Game Freak cares more about VGC and Battle Stadium (aka 3v3 Singles) than they do about Smogon metas).

In the case of legendary trios, however, they simply decide to do "theming" with them for the fun of it, without regard as to how they perform against each other or how well they do in PvP relative to each other.

Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres simply embody the common JRPG trope of "Fire, Ice, and Lightning" elemental trio as the original minor legendary trio, and they are nothing more than a trio of birds who are exceptionally powerful and each specialize in a different "magic" element within the fire, ice, and lightning trio, as they learn the three elemental super-beams (Blizzard, Thunder, and Fire Blast), the original trinity of 120 BP Special moves. Keep in mind here that Gen 1, aka RGBY, was originally designed as a self-contained monster collecting JRPG and that the original 151 Pokemon from a gameplay standpoint are designed as RPG monsters and thus are all deeply rooted in JRPG tropes.

Stat wise they share the same Special stat value (125) and a value of 100 in a different area. Articuno has 100 physical Defense, Zapdos has 100 Speed, and Moltres has 100 Attack. It's a similar vein to how the starter trio originally had their highest stat at 100 each in a different area (Venusaur had 100 Special, Charizard had 100 Speed, and Blastoise had 100 Defense).

Raikou, Entei, and Suicune were pretty similar as well, except Suicune is a Water-type capable of learning Ice moves as opposed to actually being an Ice-type. Their stat builds were simply poised in such a way that each had two "highest stats" in different areas at a value of 115. Raikou has its highest stats as Special Attack and Speed, making it a fast and specially oriented attacker, Entei has its highest stats as HP and Attack, making it more comparatively bulky but still an attacker, albeit physically oriented, and Suicune has its highest stats as Defense and Special Defense, making it defensive.

The three beasts altogether "specialized" in two stats as their main stats, and between the three of them they represented the six permanent stats of Pokemon (HP, Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed).

In general minor legendary groups (and legendary groups in general) are simply meant to be relatively similar in power to each other and thematically their stats are built in similar, albeit different ways. The Regis for instance have differing antithetical stat values (Regirock has extremely high physical Defense and good physical Attack, while its special stats are comparatively lower, Regice is the opposite being specially oriented, Regieleki is offensively oriented with high Speed and modest HP while Regidrago is the opposite with high HP and modest Speed, and Registeel is an in-between of Regirock and Regice), the Lake Guardians have the "defensively oriented" Uxie, the "all rounder" Mesprit, and the "offensively oriented" Azelf. And so on and so forth.

Cover legendaries relative to each other tend to simply be two sides of the same coin. Groudon and Kyogre, Reshiram and Zekrom, Solgaleo and Lunala, and Koraidon and Miraidon are all simple physical/special mirrors of each other. Dialga and Palkia have the same stats for the most part, with the same offensive stats but have opposing values in their defensive stats and HP/Speed, Xerneas and Yveltal have the same stats, and so on. Zacian and Zamazenta were the most divergent from each other but had the offensively oriented/defensively oriented dichotomy.

An overall ramble but you get the point. When it comes to legendary groups and designing them Game Freak ultimately is more concerned about thematic cohesion and making all the trios fit with each other thematically and creating a general "throughline" with how their stats are designed, and sometimes their types are simply meant to be thematic. They are not concerned at all about how well they perform against each other or how they perform relative to each other in the competitive sphere, especially since most of the major legendaries aren't even allowed in VGC for the most part while most minor legendaries, particularly earlier ones, weren't designed with the intent that they would do well in PvP.

 

[Imperial Magala]

InEven though you can employ various tactics in battle to work around stat differences and type disadvantages, that's not something that comes up when we see legendary Pokemon interact. Like how in Emerald Groudon and Kyogre are fighting and shown to be equally balanced, with the weather shifting back and forth because neither can take the upper hand, this despite Groudon's weakness to water and the fact that it's literally fighting Kyogre in an environment advantageous to Kyogre. It's evidentthat they aren't having a straightforward battle like we the players do. Otherwise Groudon could just use Solarbeam on Kyogre when the weather turns sunny, or when Rayquaza arrives to break things up Kyogre could just blast it with an Ice Beam and tell it to sod off.

View attachment 515246View attachment 515239

The one on the right looks much more reasonable. (Side note: it's so dumb how in Emerald you can literally surf right up to the two of them as they're fighting - put some rocks or lava or whirlpools around them or something.)

View attachment 515238​

Interesting point, but the way I see it, Kyogre's surrounded. What's beneath the ocean?

That's right, more earth!

 

[Worldie]

An overall ramble but you get the point. When it comes to legendary groups and designing them Game Freak ultimately is more concerned about thematic cohesion and making all the trios fit with each other thematically and creating a general "throughline" with how their stats are designed, and sometimes their types are simply meant to be thematic. They are not concerned at all about how well they perform against each other or how they perform relative to each other in the competitive sphere, especially since most of the major legendaries aren't even allowed in VGC for the most part while most minor legendaries, particularly earlier ones, weren't designed with the intent that they would do well in PvP.

Fully agree with what you said, though i'd add a "small" niptick.

I think recently they've started to care a bit more about how the plot relevant legendaries (mainly cover, but not only these) do in competitive.
(disclaimer: I am excluding UBs and Paradoxes from the legendary group, though some of these definitely still apply to this concept)

Ultimately, they do need to sell their games, and one of the way to get people to buy the game is making them look forward to use their fancy new legendary tool against other people. All of gen 7 8 and 9 legendaries were made with this in mind, combined with thematic. Ofc not all of them turned out perfectly, but outside of Zamazenta (which I swear would probably have actually seen play if it had Body Press last gen, idk why they didn't give it to him) and DawnWings (which sadly was just a worse Lunala after all) all of these legendaries saw play at highest level in VGC.
Obviously some saw more play than others, but bar certain outliers (cough cough Incineroar) there was a pretty healthy variation of archetypes and restricted representation last year, and even right now despite the omnipresence of Palance and Flutter Mane you do see quite varied strategies being used, with a decent chunk of off-meta picks to counter whatever is meta now. Except Wo Chien sadge.

To add to that, pretty much every legendary has been basically minmaxed on some front in last three generations. Zamazenta's minmaxing was a pretty sad case of "pointless", but all the others had their niche, from the 4 tapus which all had strategies centered around them (with Tapu Bulu being the less valuable but still had some use), so did all gen 8 ones, and right now 3 out of 4 ruin legendaries are seeing widespread usage since who would have guessed, minmaxed stat spreads backed by numbers are good.
Heck Zacian managed to be the 2nd ever pokemon banned to AG (twice tecnically lol), and while not available just yet, I'm quite confident some people are considering Miraidon and Koraidon very close to prenerf Zacian-tier of power, ironically kept in check by the very same threats they enable since their own field conditions can be used against them.

They've also shown that they are willing to balance them out, sadly (or maybe luckily) their only balance attempts happen between games, the only type of mid-generation balance is done through additional movesets / items or new pokemon that support them added via 2nd version / DLCs, but the changes to Zacian / Zamazenta for example are a good indicator of how their design philosophy swapped from "all we care is thematic" to "we have a thematic, how do we make it work competitively" over the last few generations. Most likely cause they are *really* trying to push the games to e-sports status.

VGCs is also to some degree a example of very centralizing metagame that however still manages to be varied enough to be fun to play (most of the time, we do not talk about CHALK), since it basically cycles "op" and "counter what's op" and "counter what counters what's op", which in itself keeps the metagame a bit fresher.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I think being "equal" to Dialga/Palkia is meant to be how it's shown int the cutscene. Together they can stop the rampage from going out of control. Palkia could probably do something similar were it, too, not also rampaging out of control and also interested in actually stopping it (in fact that's kind of the gist in Legends Arceus, except the other one goes so out of control it goes a step above).

That's what I meant although I might have worded it badly. Gameplay-wise, I'd say Dialga/Palkia and the lake trio ARE even, but what I was getting at is it's pretty much the only example where that's actually the case lore-wise as well as competitively.

An overall ramble but you get the point.

Eh you pretty much summed it up better than I did.

Interesting point, but the way I see it, Kyogre's surrounded. What's beneath the ocean?
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That's right , more earth!

True enough, I just meant it's literally perched on a rock in the ocean while Kyogre... is in the ocean. Groudon raising the crust or the athenosphere to strike Kyogre from below would have been cool but probably a little hard to portray in-game. The cutscene we get in Emerald doesn't even really show them fighting. I do like how in OR Groudon cleaves a path through the ocean with its lava though.