Unpopular opinions

[QuentinQuonce]

I was thinking the other day that when you consider what the mascot Pokemon of upper versions typically receive, it's funny that Rayquaza got... nothing in its own game. No new form, no new move, no new ability. It wasn't even available at a different level than it was in Ruby and Sapphire.

Obviously times have moved on, but you couldn't imagine Game Freak doing a hypothetical Pokemon Z where Zygarde was... just catchable a bit earlier, with no other additions.

I was always a bit bummed that Zygarde missed out on its own game, but looking back the anime and the manga did it better than I think the games ever could. When you compare it to the other "third points" of each trio, it can definitely stand alongside them as an equal.

 

[Samtendo09]

I was thinking the other day that when you consider what the mascot Pokemon of upper versions typically receive, it's funny that Rayquaza got... nothing in its own game. No new form, no new move, no new ability. It wasn't even available at a different level than it was in Ruby and Sapphire.

Obviously times have moved on, but you couldn't imagine Game Freak doing a hypothetical Pokemon Z where Zygarde was... just catchable a bit earlier, with no other additions.

I was always a bit bummed that Zygarde missed out on its own game, but looking back the anime and the manga did it better than I think the games ever could. When you compare it to the other "third points" of each trio, it can definitely stand alongside them as an equal.

ORAS more or less fixed this bit by giving Rayquaza it’s own Mega Evolution. That worked too well considering that it don’t need any Mega Stone and instead Dragon’s Ascent, but it still makes sense.

I do think the bigger irony is that Groudon and Kyogre are the one who get the more unique forms, being Primal Reversion. Even if all three of those more-powerful forms were gutted in mainline games since SwSh, their impact aren’t to overlook.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I was thinking the other day that when you consider what the mascot Pokemon of upper versions typically receive, it's funny that Rayquaza got... nothing in its own game. No new form, no new move, no new ability. It wasn't even available at a different level than it was in Ruby and Sapphire.

Ah, but remember that Rayquaza was technically the first extra version mascot that started the trend of their being an additional member to the initial versions duo (until said tradition was broken by SwSh as it took the games down the new DLC route). Previously we had Pikachu for Yellow (and Blastoise for Japanese Blue), both treated as Starters though Blastoise was a Starter Final Evo while Yellow is a special version made to reflect the anime hence Pikachu getting special treatment. Gen II's Crystal had Suicune which was a Legendary but not on equal terms with the initial versions' mascots, infact it was the servant to one of them.

Rayquaza was the first extra version mascot to be a Legendary on "even" level with the initial versions' (yes, yes, I know, Rayquaza has 10 more BST than Groudon & Kougra; as if at their high of BST that makes much of a difference). And while it did not get any new boons from being said mascot, what it did get was an extended role in the story. Whereas originally it was just this random dragon hanging out on top of a tower, in Emerald it become plot important as it was the only one that could stop both Groudon & Kyogre from fighting. Compared to Japanese Blue (which was just an update to Red & Green), Yellow (once again a special case, and it didn't really add lore but just gave you (normal stated) Pikachu as a Starter which had some additional interactions) and Crystal (Suicune got to run around a bit longer than it's fellow members but that's really it); that's a pretty significant addition even if it didn't affect gameplay.

Though, as Samtendo09 said, ORAS would fix this by giving it possibly the most powerful Mega Evolution (one that can hold an item and all it had to do was just know a very powerful STAB Move (and in addition to the stat increases also gets an Ability which nullified its Flying weaknesses); so no downside whatsoever).

Obviously times have moved on, but you couldn't imagine Game Freak doing a hypothetical Pokemon Z where Zygarde was... just catchable a bit earlier, with no other additions.

I was always a bit bummed that Zygarde missed out on its own game, but looking back the anime and the manga did it better than I think the games ever could. When you compare it to the other "third points" of each trio, it can definitely stand alongside them as an equal.

You know, while I do think GF were thinking of doing a Z Version (or something along those lines, Black 2 & White 2 I think really changed their perspective on extra versions until SwSh essentially retired the idea), I would believe they didn't have any plans on what they would actually do with it. It would be like Platinum? Would they do a BW2? Maybe try to think of something else. Oh, wait, this year is the 20th Anniversary! Um, you know what, scrap Z version, put full development time into the next gen. Just put the new Zygarde form in them as a bonus and pretend that was the plan all along...

I do think the bigger irony is that Groudon and Kyogre are the one who get the more unique forms, being Primal Reversion.

They got the unique forms, but I think they made it work from a story perspective. In on way Primal Reversion is sort of a downgrade from Mega Evolution as both immediately transform whereas Mega you get to decide when your Pokemon transforms (though granted this is a rare case and it's not like Groudon & Kyogre wouldn't want to transform first round anyway).

 

[Samtendo09]

After checking some responses from my Google Form regarding Pokémon’s power creep, I noticed that En Passant showed me their biggest issue regarding power creep called “Special Snowflake Syndrome”, and they make an excellent point on why it nearly singlehandedly made power creep into an issue lately.

They pointed out that the power creep prior to Generation 7 is more subtle due to mostly concerning stats and that each generation have their own overpowered Legendary Pokémon anyways. I’d say Gen 6 and by extension Gen 7 were a notable exception due to Mega Evolution, but that’s an issue that’s already talked about.

What they meant by Special Snowflake Syndrome is the fact that since Generation 7, Game Freak have a compulsion to give a powerful signature Move and / or Ability to the newer Pokémon in hope to make them stand out more. Although it could help them stand out for the casual crowd in theory, GF goes as far as intentionally making the newer Pokémon more powerful than they should be just so they are more inticing to use, making this attempt a lot more damaging in practice.

It’s not like there’s a lack of signature Moves and / or Abilities for older Pokémon, it is just that in most cases, those signatures alone doesn’t instantly make them a lot more viable or instantly broken. In fact, it fluctuates between “niche”, “good but not too much” and even “outright bad”, and serves more as flavor than anything else. It helps that the signatures are designed more sparsely, too, and the older generations already have a share of their own powerhouses in the first place.

It’s when that newer Pokémon’s signatures that are blatantly overpowered without restraint that the situation is becoming overboard, especially evident in the ninth Generation. That said, more optimized / minmaxed stat distribution also played a part, so it’s not like Garganacl would need a signature Move and a signature Ability that badly if it’s stat distribution is already impressive. Same goes for Spectrier not needing ”Special Moxie” (or Nasty Plot) since it’s stat distribution is already pretty powerful, but it does anyways and it, alongside Shadow Rider Calyrex, are ridiculously overpowered even by Legendary standards.

If the Gen 9’s Pokémon signatures aren’t so powerful, not many of the newcomers wouldn’t be OU for long, apart of Annihilape, Espathra and Palafin who would remained banned due to other factors, and Kingambit remaining in OU since Bisharp is already viable, and would Skeledirge and Meowscarada since the former is an offensive Pokémon with Unaware as an Ability which is a powerful role to have, and the latter still having optimized base stat distribution + Protean.

The reason why I felt it’s an unpopular opinion is due to the fact that not many people knows this problem, not until Gen 9 at least.

tl;dr Game Freak’s obsession for signatures (and minmaxing so constantly) is to blame for the power creep in later generations.

 

[Worldie]

Unfortunately, I see the above as a necessary evil to keep a given long-running series going.

Kinda like mobas release progressively more op characters, TCGs release progressively stronger and more busted archetypes (insert meme about yugioh card text lenght), new pokemon (expecially "special" ones like starters and legendaries) need progressively stronger tools to be interesting.

Ultimately, they make these games for money. If the newcomers aren't "strong", people are not likely to use them, which results in less merchandising sold, and potentially boring / stale metas.

 

[Samtendo09]

Unfortunately, I see the above as a necessary evil to keep a given long-running series going.

Kinda like mobas release progressively more op characters, TCGs release progressively stronger and more busted archetypes (insert meme about yugioh card text lenght), new pokemon (expecially "special" ones like starters and legendaries) need progressively stronger tools to be interesting.

Ultimately, they make these games for money. If the newcomers aren't "strong", people are not likely to use them, which results in less merchandising sold, and potentially boring / stale metas.

That’s more like an ugly lose-lose situation, the more think I about it.

Sure, not introducing strong newcomers can lead to a boring and stale meta, but introducing newcomers that are way too powerful can turn the game into one-sided fights or too fast paced, making it boring and stale, but for a different reason. Power creep will harm the metagame if not checked or balanced carefully, to the point even a rotational band-aid solution won’t help.

Plus, while MOBAs is primarily competitive, the TCG and Pokémon mainline games still have a far larger casual fanabse. And since power creep had gone real bad, even many longtime casual fans started to be very unhappy about it.

And once power creep reaches to the point where it’s all about hyper offense, even with GF’s admittedly good balancing effort for the most part, then the competitive scene might end up losing interest even more than if the metagame became stale due to a lack of viable newcomers.

What’s the harm of trying to make incomparable newcomers without making them overpowered? Oh wait, GF might not have enough time for that either, or to think being “incomparable” isn’t enough, and it shows.

And here to remind that Pokémon isn’t most known for it’s competitive values, but rather for it’s own cute critters, so of course a lot of people buy the merchandises and the games due to the titular cute critters, old and new. So if the competitive scene become less popular, no big deal in the end.

Even then, I feel like GF, or TPCi, or both, became obsessed with the competitive side to an unhealthy amount by making the newcomers “OP for competitive” and then nerf some of them if they really were overboard.

Is it really a necessary evil in the end? Your call, but I seriously doubt that it’s something that would really help a long-running franchise in the long run if they releases newcomers / packs / main games too frequently to the point where balancing is completely thrown out of the window.

One of the reasons why so-called capitalism is such a flawed concept to the point it’s depressing, I know.

 

[Worldie]

That’s more like an ugly lose-lose situation, the more think I about it.

Sure, not introducing strong newcomers can lead to a boring and stale meta, but introducing newcomers that are way too powerful can turn the game into one-sided fights or too fast paced, making it boring and stale, but for a different reason. Power creep will harm the metagame if not checked or balanced carefully, to the point even a rotational band-aid solution won’t help.

Plus, while MOBAs is primarily competitive, the TCG and Pokémon mainline games still have a far larger casual fanabse. And since power creep had gone real bad, even many longtime casual fans started to be very unhappy about it.

And once power creep reaches to the point where it’s all about hyper offense, even with GF’s admittedly good balancing effort for the most part, then the competitive scene might end up losing interest even more than if the metagame became stale due to a lack of viable newcomers.

Yup, you got it.

Personally, I think the problem is that just the series has overstayed their welcome. There's only so many elements you can make before you are just making copies of each other with a different skin (see, the 3 million bulky waters in that just all do the same job with different stats).

A roster of champions / pokemon / cards will only be able to grow so much until it starts to get in the power creep scenario where every new contestant has to take the place of a old one.
Which also unfortunately just exacerbates the fact that only the top 20-30 of a given entity will really be interesting competitively, and everything else gets kicked down. Smogon gives a great example of this with how nowadays even ZU is probably not enough to give some of the older, weaker mons any sort of viability, and I don't even think a entire new tier would suffice either.

Is it really a necessary evil in the end? Your call, but I seriously doubt that it’s something that would really help a long-running franchise in the long run if they releases newcomers / packs / main games too frequently to the point where balancing is completely thrown out of the window.

One of the reasons why so-called capitalism is such a flawed concept to the point it’s depressing, I know.

Would be much better if either they'd just let the series die, or actually hard-commit to dexit and REALLY reduce the amount of available mons in a given gen to a manageable number or straight up start allowing only current gen pokemon in a game, kinda like some card games do set rotations.
And even then, you will get the dexit conundrum of angering or not interesting the people who would rather have their favourites, because they never committed to it.

There's no correct solution to this problem, other than a full reboot every generation. Kinda like wha Digimon or SMT do, every entry is their own, not connected to the others.

 

[Samtendo09]

Yup, you got it.

Personally, I think the problem is that just the series has overstayed their welcome. There's only so many elements you can make before you are just making copies of each other with a different skin (see, the 3 million bulky waters in that just all do the same job with different stats).

A roster of champions / pokemon / cards will only be able to grow so much until it starts to get in the power creep scenario where every new contestant has to take the place of a old one.
Which also unfortunately just exacerbates the fact that only the top 20-30 of a given entity will really be interesting competitively, and everything else gets kicked down. Smogon gives a great example of this with how nowadays even ZU is probably not enough to give some of the older, weaker mons any sort of viability, and I don't even think a entire new tier would suffice either.

Would be much better if either they'd just let the series die, or actually hard-commit to dexit and REALLY reduce the amount of available mons in a given gen to a manageable number or straight up start allowing only current gen pokemon in a game, kinda like some card games do set rotations.
And even then, you will get the dexit conundrum of angering or not interesting the people who would rather have their favourites, because they never committed to it.

There's no correct solution to this problem, other than a full reboot every generation. Kinda like wha Digimon or SMT do, every entry is their own, not connected to the others.

More like no correct solution at all, I don’t trust the fanbase to agree that a full reboot will be a good thing. The fanbase is so diverse and divided that there’s too many of them complaining about even minor details, to the point that more and more people become alienated with the fandom as a whole.

Making the only Pokémon available on the Dex to appear in the games can also backfire if they don’t have at least some returning faces, as is the case Unova in BW since it means nearly completely abandon previous Pokémon without post-game or transferring, resulting Unova being too isolated for it’s own good.

Frankly, I more or less decided to not be really part of the larger fandom and focus on the smaller Pokémon communities.

 

[CPU]

I am not a fan of the amount of signature moves/abilities added in recent generations, but some of these in Gen 9 really bother me. Mostly new signature moves that are just better versions of old ones (Torch Song > Fiery Dance and Lumina Crash > Luster Purge come to mind). At least as far as Lumina Crash goes, it's not even what makes Espathra good, but I think it's crazy that it just completely beats out a legendary's signature move in literally every aspect (power, PP, effect chance, and efficacy). In this specific case I think both Lumina Crash is overpowered (in a vacuum) and Luster Purge ought to be buffed.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

This influx of signature moves in recent generations discussion has been brought up quite a few times, but right now I feel I've actually come to a different conclusion on what the actual issue is.

Yes, signature moves are being handed to new mons a lot nowadays, but the issue nowadays in my opinion isn't the continual addition of new Pokemon strictly, and while that contributes to it, that's a smaller portion of the issue than the bigger part of it.

It's the continuous need to keep adding new moves in general with each new generation ad infinitum. Yes, the addition of new moves in the first place.

Because frankly, new Pokemon can be good and many of them don't necessarily need exclusive moves and abilities to stand out, but they likely need to keep adding new moves and abilities each generation because that was established as an appeal of new generation games each time from the very beginning.

And yet, the main issue I feel, and why so many signature moves are being introduced, is that they have now stretched the pool completely thin in terms of what kinds of "generic" moves and abilities they can add with each new game.

They've been adding new generic moves each generation from Gen 1 to Gen 6, but by the point of the latter we basically already had a completely established pool of "generic" moves for every type, for every category (physical, special, and status), and that group of moves is more or less established as the pool of moves that are "generic" and to be distributed to a general group of Pokemon.

The same goes for abilities. Gens 3 to 6 already created a very strong pool of "generic" abilities that are established and there's not much else they can add there.

Now, there are clearly fewer and fewer "generic" moves and abilities they can think of to add each generation, but I also imagine that they have a strict minimum quota as to how many moves and abilities at all they are required to add with each new generation.

So how should they fill that quota? By adding more and more moves that are "specific" to individual new Pokemon.

In my eyes, the signature moves and abilities aren't strictly to make the new Pokemon viable, but to make the new moves stand out by having them align with a new Pokemon in terms of flavor and style. Because they need to add new moves and new abilities each generation, but they aren't able to come up with as many new moves and abilities that they can conceive as explicitly generic and able to be distributed to a wide variety of Pokemon.

Gen 9 for instance, actually has a select few number of generic moves and abilities. The generic set of moves are Aqua Cutter (Water-type Slash), Trailblaze, Pounce, Chilling Water, Ice Spinner, and Tera Blast (the latter explicitly made to work with Terastal). The only "generic" ability they have added is Sharpness.

But they clearly needed to fill the minimum quota beyond that, because that's an awfully small pool of "generic" moves and abilities. So signature moves and abilities galore, so that they can make new abilities and moves that fit new Pokemon flavor wise to make new abilities and moves that stand out more: because these new abilities and moves wouldn't stand out if they were designed as generic.

With that said, even when a new move or ability is introduced as a signature move/ability, that doesn't mean it has to stay as such forever. Some signature moves will always be signature moves, namely those of the Galar and Paldea starters, the cover legendaries, and other particularly marketable Pokemon.

But in later generations, what was once a signature move can become a more widespread move for use after it had served its purpose in its original game. Mystical Fire for instance started out as Delphox's signature move, and while the move flavor wise is dominantly associated with Delphox, it is now learnable in later generations by a variety of Fairy-type Pokemon and is used as coverage against Steel-types. Throat Chop went from being exclusive to Incineroar to becoming a tutor/TR move that many Dark-types can use, and others can use as Dark coverage. First Impression was once exclusive to Golisopod, but is now used as Bug-type strong priority by other Pokemon, such as Sirfetch'd and Lokix. You get the drill.

So while new generation moves can in many cases start out as exclusive signature moves, they can be repurposed in the future to become more generic. That in itself is still something in spite of all this.

But yeah just wanted to throw in my two cents on the matter.

 

[Ironmage]

While the full list of moves feels pretty complete (though I would argue the current-gen list does not without replacements for Pursuit and a universal Damage-over-time like Toxic used to be), I feel that there's still a noticeable hole when it comes to Abilities: explicit terrain synergy. While the terrain setting abilities have been distributed around, Surge Surfer and Grass Pelt are still exclusive to single lines. Misty and Psychic terrains don't get anything at all.

 

[Worldie]

While the full list of moves feels pretty complete (though I would argue the current-gen list does not without replacements for Pursuit and a universal Damage-over-time like Toxic used to be), I feel that there's still a noticeable hole when it comes to Abilities: explicit terrain synergy. While the terrain setting abilities have been distributed around, Surge Surfer and Grass Pelt are still exclusive to single lines. Misty and Psychic terrains don't get anything at all.

Quark Drive is looking sad in the corner there, as well as Mimicry (I know everybody forgot G-Stunfisk exists, but it does exist).

That said, I do agree, more terrain synergy would be pretty interesting.

 

[pika pal]

The idea of a quota to fill makes me wonder if it's why they keep avoiding certain "gap" moves people keep asking for (like a big Electric Phys move or 90 BP Flying attacks), something to use for a new-move requirement if they can't come up with anything else special ("signature" or generic)

 

[Worldie]

The idea of a quota to fill makes me wonder if it's why they keep avoiding certain "gap" moves people keep asking for (like a big Electric Phys move or 90 BP Flying attacks), something to use for a new-move requirement if they can't come up with anything else special ("signature" or generic)

They are still trying to maintain some sort of "specificity" to types.
If they were to really fill all the voids, at that point it really becomes just a matter of stats and type chart with no flavour of any kind.

Homogeneization is ok, complete homogeneization isnt.

 

[Pikachu315111]

tl;dr Game Freak’s obsession for signatures (and minmaxing so constantly) is to blame for the power creep in later generations.

Not to mention that, as we go on, the Signature Move and Abilities are becoming more and more specific. It used to be that the Signature Moves/Abilities, while certainly fitting of the Pokemon they're initially assigned to, also had a vagueness to them that allowed for some wiggle room to be given to other Pokemon; even if they were Legendary. Now there's plenty of Signature Move & Abilities where, if they decide they want to give them to another Pokemon, they may have to specifically design a Pokemon just for that purpose (be it a new species or Regional Form).

Unfortunately, I see the above as a necessary evil to keep a given long-running series going.

(...)

Ultimately, they make these games for money. If the newcomers aren't "strong", people are not likely to use them, which results in less merchandising sold, and potentially boring / stale metas.

Though it would be nice if they also weren't so adverse to change that they could go back to older Pokemon and give them a sprucing up. Past gens they gave a handful of Pokemon some more BST though it was only a handful and I don't think they did it for any Pokemon this generation. However for some Pokemon they should just do a revamp on its stats or a very least actually specialize them, which includes maybe giving them some Signature Moves/Abilities (be it new ones or taking some of the newer ones). Also introduce an Ability Tutor and let Pokemon learn more than the max 3 Abilities (and/or maybe let Pokemon have the capability of having 3 normal Abilities and 2 Hidden Abilities).

If they're not going to stop making OP Pokemon, at least go back and apply the same principle to some of the older Pokemon who you have no reason to keep down.

Would be much better if either they'd just let the series die, or actually hard-commit to dexit and REALLY reduce the amount of available mons in a given gen to a manageable number or straight up start allowing only current gen pokemon in a game, kinda like some card games do set rotations.
And even then, you will get the dexit conundrum of angering or not interesting the people who would rather have their favourites, because they never committed to it.

Dexit was poorly received because it was poorly handled. GF did just about EVERYTHING wrong with what could have been a golden opportunity to do a semi-reboot. The biggest of course being the very announcement of Dexit.

This announcement needed it's own Direct. We needed the top members of GameFreak, the Pokemon Company, and Nintendo to appear and tell us why it was decided it was the time to do this, what the plan is, and promising that the roster of returning Pokemon will change so your favorite won't be forgotten and of course there's plenty of side games and merchandise for them to appear in. THEN, they should have made a special section on the SwSh site where they showcased some of the older Pokemon that are returning and even mentioning some which aren't and explain the reasoning why; SHOW that plenty of thought is being put into these decisions. And, on their end, now that they don't have to worry about every single Pokemon, give a look over to returning Pokemon and maybe adjust their stats, Abilities, and movepools to give them an up-to-date treatment.

But what did they actually do? Instead of treating it as the big change that it was, they tried to downplay it. They had Masuda, who while a top staffer already was gaining some unfavorable attention due to some things he had decided and said, try to sneak it in an E3 Treehouse demonstration before hurriedly moving along to the next topic. And then, when everyone predictably freaked out about it, took a few weeks to respond to the outrage (likely hoping if they stay low it'll blow over) and then only gave a meager few paragraph addressing of the issue. And, despite promising this was done for quality reason, well the games than came out, notably animations were really not that much approved from Gen VII and of course the older Pokemon didn't get much improvement. It felt like a decision made from a rushed development and GF's programming incompetency (notably not compressing files).

Oh, and as a bonus, that hypothetical Direct would have also mentioned the decision to not bring back Megas or Z-Moves and for now on old super mechanics will be brought back on a case-by-case basis. But how they actually handled it was a quick mention of it in a Japanese magazine interview with Masuda. This just further made it seem like, instead of treating this like a new opportunity to focus the games, GF felt ashamed of doing this which doesn't project much confidence in the fans.

More like no correct solution at all, I don’t trust the fanbase to agree that a full reboot will be a good thing.

I don't even know what a "reboot" of Pokemon would even look like.

Going back to the original 151? Doing 150/200/250 but only with the "popular" Pokemon (which would by going GF's definition and not the fanbases, so would be a lot of odd pulls)?

Would they keep the original designs or make new ones? Combine certain similar Pokemon or evo stages together?

And of course there's the Region and human characters. Do Kanto once again or make it a new Region (or a new Region named Kanto which has some similarities with the old one)? Keep the setup or the Pokemon League (Gym Leaders, Elite Four, Champion) or do something different? Do you make new human characters or reuse old ones (and if its a new setup give them different roles)?

And of course there's the anime, TCG, all the spinoff games, merchandise, and I'm sure dozen other things I'm not thinking about which would have to adapt to a radical thing as a reboot.

The idea of a quota to fill makes me wonder if it's why they keep avoiding certain "gap" moves people keep asking for (like a big Electric Phys move or 90 BP Flying attacks), something to use for a new-move requirement if they can't come up with anything else special ("signature" or generic)

In addition to what Worldie said, there's also appeal factor. Just like how it took us till Gen 6 to get a T-Rex and Gen 9 to get a Dolphin, while it's not on the same level as getting a new Pokemon based on a well known animal/mythical creature/object/etc., a new (generic) Move which fills in a missing gap for many competitive players is itself a draw toward the new gen (and away from the older, more familiar).

 

[Worldie]

This just further made it seem like, instead of treating this like a new opportunity to focus the games, GF felt ashamed of doing this which doesn't project much confidence in the fans.

Sadly, I do think that you are actually spot on with this.

I can see that for them, admitting "yes, we cannot keep porting stuff forward" was basically admitting defeat. They're probably attached in some way to their "creations", and took proud of the whole catch-em-all innuendo, and having to publically admit "that is the past" stung way more than they'd have wanted to admit, from the leadership to the actual developers.

And yes, I think the way Dexit was announced/handled was basically on same level of the infamous "don't you guys have phones".

I am just glad they haven't "moved back" from it and stuck to the limited dex going forward. Would have been a step backward in so many ways if they did force themselves to get all of them back.

 

[Ransei]

Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are the most unfairly judged games in the series by Pokemon fans.

They are further apart from Sun and Moon in their differences than

Ruby and Sapphire are to Emerald
Diamond and Pearl are to Platinum - Platinum was necessary and it "fixed issues" but the issues DP had in gameplay made them some of the most unplayable games in the series...
Gold and Silver are to Crystal
Red and Blue are to Yellow.

Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are also more noticeably different from each other than most other paired releases. When excluding the differences in postgame content, Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon probably a similar amount of differences with each other in the plot than the rest of the games on the above list have with their upper versions due to the Ultra Recon Squad, the differences of Mina's trial, and the sheer amount of content accessible in the main game. However, in the case of Sun and Moon, there is also an extraordinary gap in content between Sun and Moon and Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon for a Pokemon game, ranging from USUM having a lot more sidequests, features such as Mantine Surfing, Alola Photo Club, Ultra Warp Riding with the exploration of UB worlds, Battle Agency (solid but only usable until online shuts down), highly interactable Pokemon in the overworld, the Team Rainbow Rocket postgame, and Rotom Dex bonuses to help with quality of life, such as making catching easier, giving pokemon an omniboost, having eggs hatch quicker, giving your pokemon an omniboost, fsr giving your pokemon a second z-move, giving you more prize money, giving you recovery items, etc. They also added nearly 200 more catchable Pokemon, 100 being within the Alola dex, the rest coming off of either island scans or ultra wormholes. (significantly bigger gap than any other finalized version had). These were also the first games in which you can press X to save but this was a really small change. In terms of fixing flaws, they made S.O.S chaining much less annoying by requiring the use of Adrenaline Orb for wild Pokemon to summon more than 1 assistant. Aside from that, they cut down the long tutorial at the beginning a bit and made it a little more interesting but that was generally it I think. Many other differences are listed here, but the differences are not as minimal as people tend to say. I don't think Gamefreak saw the cutscenes as a big issue players were having and I believe from the way they were executed in the games they were so heavily rooted into the gameplay that having a skip option would've made it jarring. Instead of this being like a regular game where you enter a stage, view a cutscene, then enter into the next part of the game, view/skip cutscene, and so forth, the game itself is treated as one big adventure combined into an endless stage. Aside from the tutorial, the Alola games in general hardly had any other big flaws imo. Even then the cutscene issue gets mostly resolved down to BW levels after the 1st island in each of these games. It generally boils down to whether or not players tolerate the cutscenes and it depends on how they play the game.

B2W2 are sequels but aside from the general storyline (one that hardly adds anything much of value from BW's story or lore and is honestly over-exaggerated off being "a sequel". It's a sequel that despite having some good plot elements, does not do its job well imo as it fails to flesh out the story much more than just Team Plasma being terrorists and fails to get very far in expanding on the Unova dragon. It's like the Gen 2 of Unova, but without as proper of a closing. We also ended up having Zygarde be more complete without a game than any of the Tao dragons were with 4.) Aside from this, it's mostly just extra content and then "fixing a few problems". The main one they fixed, Unova dex restriction, I'd argue had no reason to have ever existed in the first place for any Pokemon game. In addition, there were plenty of issues I had with BW that B2W2 did not fix. It wasn't like they made the gameplay differences like night and day. They are also no less scummy than Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were.

Quote I copied off a previous post made several months ago

While B2W2 stands strong on its own it has some deep flaws people nowadays ignore. For one, these are the only Pokemon games where you fully miss out on a significant quality of life aspect by choosing one version over the other. It was a very poor idea to make difficulty settings version exclusive, with Challenge Mode being exclusive to completed Black 2 saves and Easy Mode being exclusive to completed White 2 saves. It was also not great make the best method of grinding in the series (prior to ORAS) exclusive to White 2's White Treehallow. The White Treehallow had trainers with Blissey you could use to grind EXP. These trainers were not in Black Tower. People thought USUM were cash grabby when B2W2 falls under these tactics??

Additionally, all of my favorite things about Black 2 White 2 rely on me not resetting the game. For one, you were able to get the best of version exclusive quality of life gameplay if you connected a Black 2 and White 2 save together, but once you reset the game, it's all gone. If you didn't have both versions, you needed to connect with a friend with the opposite version each time you reset if you wanted the difficulty/white treehallow/blacktower keys. The Pokemon World Tournament was also something fun about the games but the process to reach Champions tournament was quite annoying. You had to defeat all of the gym leader tours once and then the world leaders tour 10 whole times. Each time I reset the game this again feels like an absolute slog. This was all just to be able to face very limited, repetitive teams all over again, when facilities like the Battle Tree were a lot more free and diverse. Progress on medals, Join Avenue, and Pokestar Studios were also parts of the gameplay I invested in; most notably, I completed the Pokestar Studios twice. Resetting the game meant losing my progress in everything for a run I was not going to find memorable.

I'm not saying B2W2 are bad but c'mon these games straight up made basic quality of life features version exclusive and ate out a ton of use for them unless you either got both versions or someone with the opposite version. Not to mention how much you had to rely on previous games to get the most in it (BW for memory link, Gen 4 for the many missing valuable Pokemon, like the weather trio, Dream Radar for Landous, Thundurus, Tornadus, and their Reveal Glass). You needed to buy so many other Pokemon games to fully explore B2W2 to the fullest extent.

I'm not saying any of the above games are bad, but at this point USUM are hated so much for things all these other games do with the differences boiling down to "we grew up not having to buy those games but did have to buy USUM". I've seen arguments try to go against what makes "USUM" worse in this aspect but found they never truly held up after playing through all 4 Alola games back to back to back to back and seeing people's reviews on older Pokemon titles either from official critics or by players on metacritic. People are just disappointed about these using the same upper version system as opposed to a sequel again, despite their efforts to make these upper versions more distinct. Emerald is the 2nd lowest rated mainline game in the series by official critics for reasons very similar to why USUM are judged negatively, except being put to further emphasis, and people have said B2W2 should have been a sequel because its story was that lacking.

 

[MegaFlareon]

My criticisms for Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were not because its story is too similar to Sun and Moon, it's that because its story is way inferior than that of its predecessor. Sun and Moon had a fantastic story imo and set the bar really high for future releases. USUM just failed to live up the hype it had thanks to the foundation Sun and Moon built. The final act in particular was underwhelming in contrast to what Sun and Moon delivered.

USUM had a lot of improvements that I definitely appreciated, such as a miles better distribution of wild Pokémon, a fun Ultra Wormhole mini-game to capture legendaries, more tutor moves, a better postgame, and QOL improvements such as a faster battle engine pace. Definitely worth the purchase for me since I enjoyed building different teams for the Battle Tree. If we're talking about the main storyline though, Sun and Moon are much, much better.

There's also the fact that USUM was released on the end of the 3DS era, by this time people were ready to move on to Nintendo Switch.

 

[Coronis]

Nah USUM story was better.

 

[SwampySwampert]

My criticisms for Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon were not because its story is too similar to Sun and Moon, it's that because its story is way inferior than that of its predecessor. Sun and Moon had a fantastic story imo and set the bar really high for future releases. USUM just failed to live up the hype it had thanks to the foundation Sun and Moon built. The final act in particular was underwhelming in contrast to what Sun and Moon delivered.

USUM had a lot of improvements that I definitely appreciated, such as a miles better distribution of wild Pokémon, a fun Ultra Wormhole mini-game to capture legendaries, more tutor moves, a better postgame, and QOL improvements such as a faster battle engine pace. Definitely worth the purchase for me since I enjoyed building different teams for the Battle Tree. If we're talking about the main storyline though, Sun and Moon are much, much better.

There's also the fact that USUM was released on the end of the 3DS era, by this time people were ready to move on to Nintendo Switch.

If there's a similarity between USUM and BW2, I think it's definitely in the "while the gameplay is better, the story isn't". I like BW2's story, I think Hugh is a really unique rival in his ambitions and temperament, but nothing they did was ever going to live up to N and the significance of the "family" theme from BW isn't replicated by anything in the sequel, and I do wish we got to see what happened to the BW player character.

Same kind of thing for USUM. I think Episode RR was a great way to tap into the nostalgia in a way that feels fresh, but I think Guzma's redemption arc and the effect Ultra Space had on him was better in the original, as well as OG Sun and Moon's commentary on grief and child abuse through Lusamine as opposed to her being more of just a narcissist in USUM.

Funny how generations V, VII and IX, despite being criticized at launch for gameplay reasons (admittedly due to glitchiness for the last one), seem to generally be the consensus best original stories.

 

[Pikachu315111]

USUM: (Contet) Quantity Over (Story) Quality:
I had no problem with the content that USUM added in, if content is what you want USUM would be the better pick over SM. However the story was, in my opinion, botched. If you want story, well, I would have said play SM but the frustrating thing about that is that I think with USUM that game's story is now non-canon. Lillie going off with a sick Lusamine to seek out a cure after fusing with Nihilego, meanwhile Gladion takes over the Aether Foundation? No more! The Ultra Beast storyline hinting at the dangers of the Ultra Beasts as they appear all over Alola, having to work with Looker and the Aether Foundation to capture them, as well as the side story concerning Looker trying to protect Anabel as well as learning about Nanu's past with being a Interpol agent? Poof, gone (and while Looker and Anabel are still in Alola for some reason, you don't form any connection with them and who knows if in the USUM dimension if they kept Nanu being once an interpol agent)!

And the frustrating thing about it is that it didn't need to be. If they allowed all the extra story to have increased the playtime they could have worked everything in or adjusted things where they would need to. But no, they didn't want to have the playtime increases so instead jammed in the new story elements thus making parts of the story that are still built-up go feeling unfulfilled when thy reach their conclusion (Lillie confronting her mother about her abusive behavior? Major moment in SM... taken care off screen in USUM). And this also means new story elements added also go feeling unfulfilled like the Ultra Recon Squad, Ultramegalopolis, and the various Ultra Wild worlds.

I could go point-by-point through what Ransei said and give praise & complaints for each new feature & mechanic they mentioned, but a lot would be nitpicking and overall subtract from my main point.

BW2: A Sequel Of A Wrapped-Up Story:
While I would agree that BW's story is better than BW2's story, that's because BW pretty much "finished" what it set out to do. Yeah, there was a few loose plot threads, but nothing that previous Pokemon stories didn't have. BW2 is a paradox of having its work cut out for it... BUT then having to figure out what new thing to DO with the cut outs. I participated in a Flying Press article where I compared BW2 with Gen II to give my opinion which was the better sequel and my conclusion that it was BW2... but with a caveat: BW2 is a good sequel, but it's NOT a good standalone game. BW2's crutch is that it's really built upon what happened in BW. Now, if you play the games together you pretty much get the best Gen V experience, if BW was a bowl of ice cream than BW2 is the hot fudge, crushes nuts, and cherry on top. But separate, well, BW is still a bowl of ice cream, BW2 is a melted candy bar. (once agian, can go over point-by-point with Ransie's post but would make this post longer and away from main point).

But, once again, if you're looking for content than BW2 is the game you want over BW. I won't argue there's plenty of stupid decisions, especially with how they handled the difficulty settings (I seriously would want to know the logic behind all the decisions they made for it and what substance they were on to think it was a good idea). EDIT: Actually, expand that into decisions for White Treehollow/Black Tower too. I was surprised to hear Black Tower didn't have the Blissey trainers so I checked out the differences between the trainers that appear in both. So, wanna know why Black Tower doesn't have Blissey trainers? For some baffling reason, the Pokemon the trainers use are based off the Effort Values they give and they decided to split them between the versions: White Treehollow has Pokemon with EVs for HP (hence the Blissey), Attack, & Defense; and Black Tower's is Special Attack, Special Defense, & Speed .

Funny how generations V, VII and IX, despite being criticized at launch for gameplay reasons (admittedly due to glitchiness for the last one), seem to generally be the consensus best original stories.

And notably all those generations were a second gen on a console that already had one (if you count Gen I being on the original GB and Gen II being for the GBC); and that might play a part in why they have both "intricate" stories and odd gameplay decisions. Because they're the second gen on a console that already had a Pokemon gen, the engine they used was mostly already done so they probably didn't feel they needed to work on it as much (hence performance issues when those games demanded some more power the engine wasn't quite up to speed handling) and they could focus on developing the story more (which in turn would help it stand out from the console's debut gen).

 

[pika pal]

USUM perplexes me on not wanting to "add" rather than "replace" content compared to previous 3rd-version games: Giratina and the Distortion World didn't do away with Cyrus or Team Galactic in their base or at Spear Pillar, for example. All you would need to do is insert the Ultra Recon Squad throughout Alola akin to Looker's appearances in Platinum (have them investigating Z-Crystals since they have similar energy to Necrozma/the Wormholes), and then perhaps follow-up one of the Lusamine battles with Nebby being taken by Necrozma (drawn to the battle by its evolution power and Lusamine tearing open Wormholes) to lead into the Ultra Necrozma battle.

If you insist on tying things together, Lusamine's reformation could go from a simple purging of Nihilego's toxins to a "dear god I caused this" reaction to Necrozma becoming (to her) a monstrosity (Dusk/Dawn) in tandem with her reaction to her kids having stood up to her lunacy. Not to say this would be better than how her SM self was written but at least it'd keep a flow between the new events instead of just kind of pivoting into new stuff and relegating the old climaxes to "oh and this happened" or haphazard decisions (Lusamine's insanity becomes "okay I had a plan" that still involves freezing a bunch of Pokemon?).

Hell, some of the USUM stuff makes less sense for USUM than Vanilla SM: Rainbow Rocket has to kidnap and brainwash Lusamine to work for them instead of hiring the equally-knowledgeable Faba who sold her out to begin with (which would beg the question why they didn't do the same with N from Unova instead of bringing the obvious-traitor-later Ghetsis onboard). Seeking out SM Lusamine would track because she was a Megalomaniac and much more capable battler for most of the story, and the concern could be down to her potentially joining up with them if she relapsed or simply being in danger to her health since she hadn't recovered from Nihilego yet.

This is why I consider USUM the weakest "third version" games, for a criticism I (to a significantly lesser extent) share with ORAS as remakes over Gen 3 and Emerald; for everything they add, they took away significant parts of the original such that even if they're superior to you, they have major gaps and reasons that prevent them from being OBJECTIVELY better or more up to date game experiences compared to their predecessor at respective release. USUM has a lot of cool battling and catching content, but the story, arguably the strongest suit of SM was definitively a worse one. It stings especially because it makes Gen 7 two halves of a really good Pokemon game rather than one strong whole. One could argue Gen 5 had a similar issue, but B2W2 was always presenting itself as a sequel, not a replacement/definitive edition, so it has less of a "need" to be the previous game but better on story.

And let's be real, if USUM was a thing nowadays it would have just been an expansion pack like Gen 8 and 9 have. The "3rd version" trend was always contentious with Pokemon, but USUM combined the biggest "not a strict improvement" feeling with being on the 3DS, a console that should be capable of DLC if the team was more forward thinking (to ensure the game had Assets able to be accessed and arranged for new maps and such rather than literally copy-pasting a copy into every map as was infamously rumored about Lillie's Model for example). Even if USUM are themselves fine games, in the context of Gen 7 and the Pokemon franchise they reflect some of the worst practices/incompetence by developer and publisher, and I'm willing to bet they contributed to the intensity (not necessarily validity/invalidity) of Gen 8 after them.

 

[Slowpoke Fan]

Saw a lot of comments on the previous page about what direction the franchise should take for sustainability, and I think the solution is pretty simple - reboot every generation from 1-9 before moving on with generation 10. Besides it being a nice 'gesture' before releasing the tenth generation as well as potentially 'fixing' older favourites, it would buy decades of time for the franchise - the typical 3 year cycle for each generation would mean that remaking every generation that exists nowadays would take 27 years (and potentially much longer if Gamefreak/Nintendo stop rushing out games). But alas, production of the generation 10 games are well under way .

 

[R_N]

Hell, some of the USUM stuff makes less sense for USUM than Vanilla SM: Rainbow Rocket has to kidnap and brainwash Lusamine to work for them instead of hiring the equally-knowledgeable Faba who sold her out to begin with (which would beg the question why they didn't do the same with N from Unova instead of bringing the obvious-traitor-later Ghetsis onboard). Seeking out SM Lusamine would track because she was a Megalomaniac and much more capable battler for most of the story, and the concern could be down to her potentially joining up with them if she relapsed or simply being in danger to her health since she hadn't recovered from Nihilego yet.

So I do agree that USUM not changing enough just makes things weird but...

They probably didn't hire Faba (Though he did easily work for them) because he's just a toady and wouldn't have the full pull that Lusamine did in ordering people and stuff around.
And they didn't...really kidnap Lusamine, per say. I mean they kind of did, but only after she herself went up to them to try and get them out. The brainwashing aspect is..still weird, mind you. An unseen Ultra Beast that can knock you out and also brainwash you to serving under Giovanni's will is really weird thing to just throw in there and never follow up on.
But that aside, Giovanni also felt he needed Lusamine because it gave him full access to the entirety of the Aether Foundation's stuff. Hypothetically, they're a world wide foundation, with a lot of pull in addition to their technology.

They didn't do the same to N because N does nothing for them. Ghetsis was the one pulling everything behind the scenes and is the one with the people pushing power and access to whatever other tech and resources he had to begin with; and judging by him having the legendary Pokemon it seems like N didn't even get to keep that. Whatever went down in his Unova was probably pretty bad for N, honestly. It's pretty interesting that Ghetsis is the only one we don't find out about the fallout of where he went. Maxie, Archie, & Lysandre all got pulled under the earth/the sea/the beam and Cyrus got whisked away by Giratina. Ghetsis never says anything, beyond still wanting to use N as a King-puppet.





Also, while I'm here...Lusamine was still a megalomaniac in USUM. Most of that is on the back of not changing 95% of what happened around her up to the climax, but the difference was it was went from "Fuck all this, UBs forever" to "Fuck all of you, I'm the one who knows what I'm doing and whatever I do is the best for everyone". It's honestly part of the reason I'm not as down about Lusamine in USUM as others are; I think it made sense for the character to potentially veer into that direction instead of nihilism and I think USUM's big failing was not doing that more with other characters. If you're going to slightly tweak things, doing tweaks like that can be really interesting.

And, well, since I'm on the subject. I think that....when people talk about USUM Lusamine...they kind of project how she was in the anime? There she's way softer, a smother more than anything, and when she gets nihilego'd she basically becomes a child throwing a tantrum. And I see a lot of people say similar things about her here but it's really not. Not everyone does this, mind you, but I see it enough that it sticks out to me.
She got humbled hard (off screen, annoyingly) and then once in a position where she failed and had to be bailed out by her daughter & friend, Lillie talks it out and she can't run away from that. She gets better, but it's also not instant. If you follow the dialog after that it's a pretty interesting little arc.

"Lillie... It seems that you were right. Right to feel hurt by the suffering of Pokémon. Right to take Cosmog away..."
"Here... You should take these Beast Balls. Put out your hand." "Those are special Poké Balls that we developed with the Ultra Recon Squad's help to capture Ultra Beasts. I know I can trust leaving them in the hands of a Trainer like you."
"With its light stolen from it, Cosmog is... No, SolgaleoUS/LunalaUM is weak. We will take it back to Paradise to care for it. Lillie, you will help also."

She's started to acknowledge that she was extremely wrong, and is starting to make some immediate amends because of it. But she's also still very terse, serious. She still commands LIllie, even if the context makes it a little softer.

Then Rainbow Rocket happens and she tries to take it into her own hands to prevent what would be a disaster from happening again: And fails. Again. And has to be bailed out by Lillie & her friend (& Guzma!) again. ALl her dialog during this sequence is very serious and kind of played somberly; there's none of her fanatacism, she's tired, she's gotta rebuild things, but also she's still putting herself into this and got owned.

This next part you only see if you visit her after that, so it's pretty easy to miss
"I'm in no position to face my children now... I've lost any right to claim that I am protecting Pokémon as well... If I can't be a mother to them, and I'm no longer worthy to be the president of this foundation... then what am I to be?"

"I am Lusamine. I am the president of this foundation and mother to Gladion and Lillie. And while I will pour my love into protecting Pokémon and my children from pain... I will also try to be strong enough to watch over them without interfering from now on. That would be an even more beautiful kind of love, wouldn't you say? I learned to think this way after watching you... young <player>."

She's really going through it now. She acknowledges her wrongs by this point, she wants her children to be allowed to do their own thing, so she tries again to try and be a better person.

And that kind of goes with the Mohn scene where she sees him happy and just...let's him go on.

And you get one more thing to all this
"The Pokémon League... They say that being the strongest Pokémon Trainer is not enough to become Champion. So how about you show me exactly what kind of Trainer you are?"
---
"Caring won't keep the things you love safe. But if you don't care, if you're so hard at heart, you may find you have nothing left to protect... Is that it? Maybe I can understand Lillie a little better now."

You only get this if you defeat Lusamine as a Title Defense opponent (and you need to see the Mohn scene for it iirc). She's still trying to both understand and improve. And still has room to go

I think it's a better end cap for her character, and probably pretty similar to what would happen with Lillie & Lusamine post SM.

On subsequent battles she's got some of her confidence back
"As the president of the Aether Foundation, and as Lillie's mother... I will take you on in battle, <player>!"
but
"Strong and yet kind... No... Perhaps your strength in fact comes from that kindness. Thank you for battling with me. Thank you for being Lillie's friend."
Acknowledges where she has to go.

It could be better, of course. Not being tucked away in side dialogs you can easily miss, having there be more dialog for her in general, show us the conversation between Lillie & Lusamine (if only for Lillie's sake...), don't have her asleep during the entire RR finale so we can have more interplay between her, Lillie & us, etc., ec etc. Many criticisms.
But I don't think Lusamine's character is as terrible in USUM vs SM as some people think. It's fine, of course, if you still don't like the change in direction or liked the SM climax more, there's various reasons why, just...this one very specific view of USUM Lusamine bugged me.

 

[RocketSurgery]

Ultra Sun remains my favorite playthrough of the series due to it being my mono-ghost run and being able to add Marshadow to the team since the event had been done by then, as I've mentioned in various other threads. It was also one of the few games where I learned to RNG manip so I could catch shinies in the ultra wormholes, which was a lot of fun until the circle-pad on my 3DS broke. :(

However, there were several things I felt USUM lacked or preferred in SM:

-I was hoping the Ultra Recon squad would cause the storylines to diverge a lot sooner than they did. It really felt a lot like SM with some minor changes up until near the climax.

-I preferred Kukui being the final boss to Hau, though I don't think USUM should have necessarily used Kukui again. I just really liked Kukui being the Champion stand-in because this was the first league. I'm not sure how they could have topped that in USUM: it would have felt boring if they just did it again, but going with Hau was also just the obvious alternate choice. Maybe the younger Ultra recon squad member should have gradually built an actual team over the course of the story and tried to battle you for the title.

-I liked the Ultra Beast postgame storyline better than Rainbow Rocket. It felt more like an adventure whereas RR was more like a boss rush. Maybe if the villains had been spread out around Alola instead of just in a castle it would have felt more interesting. Also I missed the Electrode in the castle before it reverted to regular Aether Mansion. :(

-The thing that drives me nuts the most, though (which maybe we've covered this in this or another thread before and I just perpetually forget if anyone has had a counterpoint) is that at the climax the Ultra Recon squad already has a Solgaleo/Lunala, making all of the business with Nebby seem pointless. This always felt like a big plothole to me.